Perhaps the Free Hand Fighter, Mobile Fighter or Weapon Master archetypes might be more to your liking?
Also, keep in mind the Aldori Dueling Mastery feat.
In case you are also willing to go down the path of a prestige class, the Duelist would also be a good fit.
As for ability scores, something like Str 14/+2, Dex 17/+3, Con 14/+2, Int 14/+2, Wis 10/+0, Cha 13/+1.
Finally, as far as favored class bonuses are concerned, either the skill point for the added versatility or the hit point for the added survivability are good choices. I usually go with the skill point myself.
Doesn't that feel like a typo or a mismatch from the wiki to the book that the archetype designed to wield this weapon is in fact not proficient in it automatically?
The problem I have is that the aldori swordlord archetype in the inner sea primer seems weak. I have to take three feats (weapon finesse, agile maneuvers, and exotic weapon proficiency - aldori dueling sword) just to function almost as well as a base level longsword fighter. Once he takes those three feats he is leagues ahead.
Why do you need to have a high Dex (and thus Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers) in order to use the archetype? It seems like it would work fine with a low Dex character -- possibly better, in fact, since you're losing out on Armor Training, so a high Dex would be wasted.
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Doesn't that feel like a typo or a mismatch from the wiki to the book that the archetype designed to wield this weapon is in fact not proficient in it automatically?
Your proficient with it, you get don't get to weapon finesse it unless you take the exotic weapon proficiency feat. It's one of those weapons.
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It seems to me like you really don't need to focus on dex to play this character, it's easily done as a strength based fighter.
Yes, if you want to take Aldori Dueling Mastery, you'll need Weapon Finesse, but fighters get enough feats that it's not too bad to waste one on that just to get access to the other. Otherwise I see nothing to prevent you from playing this as a strength-based fighter.
As a DM I would rule that the Archetype automatically granted the exotic weapon proficiency in the aldori dueling sword. Otherwise it's just a feat tax.
Doesn't that feel like a typo or a mismatch from the wiki to the book that the archetype designed to wield this weapon is in fact not proficient in it automatically?Your proficient with it, you get don't get to weapon finesse it unless you take the exotic weapon proficiency feat. It's one of those weapons.
That sounds like a nasty case of RAW vs. RAI. I say discuss with your GM about it. If he agrees that that's silly you open yourself up to some decent options. You won't be a tank but you can be a decent battlefield controller. Your AC actually won't be terrible either since you're obviously going for combat expertise chain right? Right?
Combat maneuver a path to victory and let the others deal the raw hit point damage. Dirty Trick is very flavorful for this type of character and nothign stops you from tripping and disarming people to death. At about lvl7 you can start taking levels of Duelist or Magus easily and start supplementing your AC and damage with their abilities.
Doesn't that feel like a typo or a mismatch from the wiki to the book that the archetype designed to wield this weapon is in fact not proficient in it automatically?Not really. When you're a level 1 fighter, you're a work in progress., not the final ultimate master.
The trouble here is that as an archetype to a specific weapon you should at least be proficient in the damn thing. That's like, playing a a ranger, picking the archery style but having to take a martial wepon proficiency because the ranger's not proficient in bows. Never mind that he gets tons of feats to support that style thus giving us the assumption he practiced archery but never bothered to, you know, use a bow...
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I posted this before the Aldori Swordlord Archtype (which I'm not fond of) was released. It is a very versitile build (except at range, but he is a SWORDlord after all) that can switch from offense (power attack) to defense (Expertise), or both.
Straight fighter (no archtype) Takes the Sword Scion trait and the Heirloom weapon trait to start with:
- +1 to hit (trait bonus, you get it twice and it doesn't stack)
- A free masterwork weapon (Heirloom gives a masterwork for non-masterwork price, Sword Scion gives free regular price dueling sword)
- Free exotic-weapon proficiency (though if he loses the weapon, he's going to need to take exotic weapon proficiency pretty darn quick)
Stats of:
Str: 14
Dex: 18
Con: 12
Int: 13
Everything else at 10.
Use feats to increase damage and AC. You need a high + to hit because a lot of what you do reduces it.
1st level: Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, and Power attack
(+8 to hit with Heirloom dueling sword, -1 from power attack, damage of 1d8+6, ac of 18 with chain shirt)
2nd level: Dodge (Ac 19 w/ chain shirt)
3rd: Quick Draw (or later)
4th: Weapon Spec (damage 1d8+11)
5th: Combat Expertise (Ac 21 w/ chain shirt)
6th:
7th:
8th: Weapon Focus, Greater
9th: Improved Crit (could reverse order with Weapon Focus, Greater)
10th:
11th:
12th: Aldori Dueling Mastery +2(1)shield bonus, so +11 to ac from feats and starting dex)
13th: Weapon Spec Greater (damage 1d8+22 from feats and starting strength)
Feats to consider - Mobility, Spring attack, Lunge, Various Vital Strikes, Cleave, Step up, Toughness, Disarm, Various critical feats, Improved Inititive.
So at 13th level you can take a -10 to hit to increase damage by 12, and ac by 4 (with an extra +2 without cost). Your base to hit with starting masterwork weapon and starting stats at that level is 24.
Attack breakdown at 13th: +13 bab, +4 dex, +1 weapon focus, +1 greater weapon focus, +1 trait bonus, +1 masterwork, +3 Weapon Training
Damage breakdown at 13th: +2 weapon spec, +2 greater weapon spec, +3 two handed strength, +12 two handed power attack, +3 Weapon Training.
PAP:KMPG PFRPG CUP
Sword Scion Sword Scion Campaign Kingmaker You have lived all your life in and around the city of Restov, growing up on tales of Baron Sirian Aldori and the exploits of your home city’s heroic and legendary swordlords. Perhaps one of your family members was an Aldori swordlord, you have a contact among their members, or you have dreamed since childhood of joining. Regardless, you idolize the heroes, styles, and philosophies of the Aldori and have sought to mimic their vaunted art. Before you can petition to join their ranks, however, you feel that you must test your mettle. Joining an expedition into the Stolen Lands seems like a perfect way to improve your skills and begin a legend comparable to that of Baron Aldori. You begin play with a longsword or dueling sword and gain a +1 trait bonus on all attacks and combat maneuvers made with such weapons.
You begin play with a longsword or Aldori dueling sword and gain a +1 trait bonus on all attacks and combat maneuvers made with such weapons.
Section 15: Copyright Notice - Paizo Traits Database
Paizo Traits Database. Copyright 2011 d20pfsrd.com
Take this trait. I do not see the bit about it giving exotic proficencey though.
And well, yeah. You are just a lame monk at some point. It is the trap of finesse, no armor fighters. Mabey if you fight a lot of other finesse, no armor fighters nobody will notice.
I'd try to convince your GM to grant weapon finesse as a bonus feat for every character, even with that they will not overwhelm a strength based warrior, far from it.
Also ask your GM to take away your proficiency with tower shields and heavy armor for the Exotic Weapon proficiency.
I do not know the Archetype from the top of my head, think I scanned it once, but if the archetype doesn't work just pick another that fits the Aldori Swordlord better or work with your GM to make it a viable archetype.
The whole point of the aldori dueling sword as far as I can tell is that with training you can finesse essentially a longsword, 2hand it finessed and still get the strength bonus, and it counts as piercing to meet duelist requirements. If you're not finessing you should just use a longsword as it is no different.
I get the flavour of it. But I think the real issue is more along the lines of "Make a Weapon Finesse fighter that doesn't suck"; there's nothing particularly unique to the Aldori swordlord archetype that doesn't apply to every other Weapon Finesse user.
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If you only ever attempt disarms while armed with your sword, you can skip Agile Maneuvers - Weapon Finesse covers maneuvers made with finesseable weapons (manuevers are explicitly attack rolls, which Weapon Finesse allows you to sub your Dex for your Strength for). That helps with the feat tax some.
Lessee... stats.
Str 14 (5 pts), Dex 16 (+2 racial, 10 pts), Con 14 (5 pts), Wis 10, Int 13 (3 pts), Cha 12 (2 pts)
If you're comfortable with slightly fewer hit points (or are willing to sacrifice one of the trained skills I suggest, see below), you can drop Con to 13 and buy Wis to 12, for a slight bump to your Perception and Will saves.
Weapon Finesse, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Aldori dueling sword). Pick up Combat Expertise at level 3. Pick up Weapon Specialization at level 4 and Improved Disarm at level 5 (when you get your disarming strike ability), as well as Quick Draw and Aldori Dueling Mastery when you can. Power Attack will be your life raft, however, in terms of damage output - it won't keep you up with a two-handed specialist, but it will help out a lot, particularly when you switch to using your sword two-handed (which you should do exclusively until you get Aldori Dueling Mastery). Iron Will and Improved Iron Will will help cover your weakest save.
Trained Skills: Acrobatics, Diplomacy, Perception, Stealth, Use Magic Device (favored class bonus goes to skills).
Does that help?
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Match it with Duelist, get AC in the high 40's around level 10 when going all-out. Touch AC in the high 30's.
Half-elf ancestral arms racial feature (or human, either way gets you exotic prof)
08
18
12
16
08
12
Levels to DEX
Belt to DEX and STR, Headband to INT and CHA
Heirloom Weapon / Threatening Defender
01 Exotic Proficiency: Aldori Dueling Sword, Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
02 Dodge
03 Weapon Focus: Aldori Dueling Sword
04 Specialization: Aldori Dueling Sword
05 Mobility
06 Quick Draw
07 Aldori Dueling Mastery
Start Duelist at 8
09 Improved Disarm
11 Osyluth Guile
It will start rough, but once you've got Osyluth Guile you'll be nearly unhittable. Given Precise Strike, you might even nix STR for CON on your items. It's a very quick-tank type character. You'll be behind on damage for awhile, but one precise strike kicks in it'll help a lot. Even with the attack penalties from fighting defensively while expertising (something the Swordlord variant is built for, even moreso with Duelist past 12)
[Edited for typos that made no sense]
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It will start rough, but once you've got Osyluth Guile you'll be nearly unhittable. Given Precise Strike, you might even nix STR for CON on your items. It's a very quick-tank type character. You'll be behind on damage for awhile, but one precise strike kicks in it'll help a lot. Even with the attack penalties from fighting defensively while expertising (something the Swordlord variant is built for, even moreso with Duelist past 12)
At level 12 he'd have 32 base, I believe.
Mage Armor +4 Armor (either borrowed via a Pearl of Power or UMDed)
Dodge +1 Dodge
11 DEX (24 DEX + 18 INT)
Alodori Dueling Mastery +2 Shield
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +12
If he gets a round to buff
Shield +4 Shield (UMD, doesn't stack with dueling mastery)
When attacking:
Fighting Defensively +5 Dodge (-2 attack, thanks to Steel Net)
Combat Expertise +4 Dodge (-3 attack)
When full attacking +2 Dodge vs Melee Attacks (Defensive Parry)
When activating Boots of Speed +1 Dodge (Haste)
When focusing on one opponent with Osyluth Guile +2 Dodge
So, all-out this is 48 with a touch of 38. Flat-Footed is 20 (22 with Shield)
Not too shabby, and damage is not terrible for a low-str.
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Try this:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/dPRCompetition&page=1#25Just because you need Weapon Finesse does you don't have to use it.
The option to get an additional attack with a two handed weapon is what makes the Aldori Feat awesome.
The feat was updated in the inner sea world guide. It now lets the Duelist get full PrC benefits using the slashing dueling sword, a shield bonus, and an initiative bonus. It does not grant the extra attack
Seems a good plan, and it is good to make use of the Swordlord's boon to fighting defensively. As soon as that feature kicks in, you have no reason to not fight defensively.
Am I missing something? I do not see where the Aldori Dueling Sword qualifies as a duelist weapon. Certainly the flavor makes sense, but I am not seeing how that works in RAW. You would still get the int to AC, the enhanced mobility, improved reaction, grace. As riposte needs a parry which requires the piercing weapon, it is out along with precise strike.
Another thought, with power attack and furious focus, one may see a bump up in their overall damage output. As you rely on taking attack penalties to live, negating an attack penalty for damage could be a nice thing.
Am I missing something? I do not see where the Aldori Dueling Sword qualifies as a duelist weapon. Certainly the flavor makes sense, but I am not seeing how that works in RAW.
It's in the most recent version of the Aldori Dueling Master feat.
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Lots of good advice here. Shisumo thanks for the tip on combat maneuvers, I didn't know that.
That looks pretty good Alorha. I didn't realize how insane you could make the AC. I also hadn't heard of threatening defender. Where does oslyuth guile come from?
Alorha I'm curious how you would build an aldori rogue/duelist for comparison sake? The idea would be too sacrifice as little combat capability as possible to gain some skills and fun rogue talents, while maintaining as much aldori flavor as possible. I suppose rogue/aldori swordlord/duelist could even work.
I actually took this build to 20. Levels 18,19, and 20 were all Rake Variant Rogue for Evasion, sneak attack, and some little flavor touches, all for the cost of 1 BAB.
It's harder to start rogue, due to the feat tax of Dueling Mastery (Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus, and Exotic Proficiency would all be there, but Quick Draw makes it a bit harder) and Duelist (Dodge and Mobility). At least Weapon Finesse gets both of them, in addition to being crucial for the build.
Swashbuckler Rogue can get Combat Training Twice, in addition to Weapon Training and Finesse Rogue... I suppose that could allow you to fill some in.
The best part of the build, though is Steel Net, the level 7 Armor Training 2 trade. You turn fighting defensively from -4 attack / +3 AC (1 extra being acrobatics, which you will have) to -2 attack / +5 AC. Rogue will not be able to do this.
The attack penalty also kills rogue, since expertise is factored into insano AC, though the expertise penalty will be less, but so too the bonus due to lower BAB.
I wouldn't do rogue until well into the build, imo.
As for Threatening Defender, it's a combat trait from the Cheliax book, though not limited to Chelaxians.
Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 19
You know how to avoid a blow while still maintaining your offensive posture. When you use Combat Expertise, reduce the number you subtract from your melee attack rolls by 1.
Osyluth Guile lets you add your CHA as a dodge bonus vs 1 opponent. Much like 3.5 dodge, except it doesn't suck as much, since you can increase the bonus
Source Cheliax: Empire of Devils 27
You are skilled at misdirecting an opponent’s attacks.
Prerequisites: Bluff 8 ranks, Dodge.
Benefit: While you are fighting defensively or using the total defense action, select one opponent. Add your Charisma bonus to your AC as a dodge bonus against that opponent’s melee attacks until your next turn. You cannot use this feat if you cannot see the selected opponent.
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Seems a good plan, and it is good to make use of the Swordlord's boon to fighting defensively. As soon as that feature kicks in, you have no reason to not fight defensively.
Am I missing something? I do not see where the Aldori Dueling Sword qualifies as a duelist weapon. Certainly the flavor makes sense, but I am not seeing how that works in RAW. You would still get the int to AC, the enhanced mobility, improved reaction, grace. As riposte needs a parry which requires the piercing weapon, it is out along with precise strike.
Another thought, with power attack and furious focus, one may see a bump up in their overall damage output. As you rely on taking attack penalties to live, negating an attack penalty for damage could be a nice thing.
Power Attack would be hard unless you redid the build, considering I sacked STR. It's doable in a different build, but the Swordlord variant itself is really built for defense, so you'd likely want a different archetype. 2 feats is also a hefty price considering what's already required.
The swordlord gets to use the dueling sword because of the updated Dueling Mastery feat:
You have mastered the grueling fighting style perfected by
the Aldori Swordlords.
Prerequisites: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Aldori dueling sword), Quick Draw, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Aldori dueling sword).
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on Initiative checks as long as you start combat with an Aldori dueling sword in your hand. As long as you wield only a single Aldori dueling sword in one hand, you gain a +2 shield bonus to your AC—if you wield the sword in two hands, this bonus drops to a +1 shield bonus to AC. Although the dueling sword inflicts slashing damage, you treat it as if it were also a piercing weapon when determining the effects of weapons used by a duelist.
The archetype benefits of the Aldori swordlord only apply when he is using an Aldori dueling sword and carrying nothing in his other hand.
For this reason I can't imagine a swordlord using his Aldori dueling sword 2-handed for the 1-1/2 Str or power attack bonuses. He could, but he'd be forfeiting all of the benefits of his class.
Yet this is the appeal of the Aldori dueling sword, apparently (the reason the Aldori dueling sword is an "exotic" weapon).
Yes, he can "finesse" his 2-handed weapon, but to what end? A Str-based 2-handed fighter can hit just as often and do much more damage while retaining his archetype's class features.
Seems pretty lame to me.
Perhaps if the Aldori dueling sword had a better critical range, perhaps 18-20/x2 (as a rapier, which would be a similar weapon, I'd say). Drop the "hand-and-a-half" stuff, and add the "Disarm" property... then maybe you'd have a weapon worth burning a feat on.
Still, the class seems gimp. At the expense of damage, they receive unnecessarily high AC. Okay. Why? ~_~
(Worth noting that I am still playing one of these because I've always wanted to play the duelist type character XD)
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Hopefully without drawing too much (f)ire. I liken the Sword Lords to Light Saber duelists. Whether you want to swing the sword 2 or 1 hand seems to me a matter of preferance. And besides, you never know when a foe eats/harms one of those arms. Plus weilding one handed and having a hand free leaves you open to things. Consider that some of the builds above have Quick Draw. Shrukien, Daggers, and Tanglefoot Bags for range/distraction purposes?
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Why
The "why" tends a be a different view of sword mastery. You sacrifice raw power for pure defensive skill. Any opponent one-on-one will have his sword on the ground wondering how you hit him at the same time.
It's a different fantasy-trope fighter, but a legitimate one all the same.
And once you get your full duelist precise strike you rapidly catch up in damage.
I suppose you might call it gimp to the crazed falcata wielder before later levels. At that point the AC boost kicks in, and damage starts to pick up. It'll never beat the two-handed power attacker, but who cares? Damage is not king for every build, nor should it be. This is one expressly designed to be untouchable, all the while embarrassing enemy swordsmen in only the way a master can.
It's true, there's no reason to take the exotic proficiency without the boons of the alternate class, in my mind. There are better finessable exotic two-hand blades (elven curve blade... and you can just be an elf fighter and know how to use it), and the rapier has a better threat range, only losing in the weapon die department (which does not matter for long).
That being said, I wouldn't change the dueling sword, because the rules are perfect for representing a weapon that's only truly amazing for those who have put everything into mastering it.
There are few weapons like that. It does nothing for Joe Fighter, true, but in the hands of a swordlord it can make for a grand old time.
An elegant weapon from a more civilized age.
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Good to know stuff
SO, how about an elven Kensai (Pathfinder society rules, 20 point build)
Str: 10, Dex: 20, Con: 10, Int: 15, Wis: 10, Cha: 8. (20 Points).A race that grants a bonus feat could give this build quick-draw at first level (and thus Aldori Dueling Mastery at 3rd level) but you will likely lose the +2 int elven racial adjustment (as you try to retain the +2 dex).
First level: weapon finese
Kensai bonus: Exotic weapon- Aldori dueling sword
Kensai bonus 2: Weapon focus- Aldori Dueling Sword
2nd level - no feat. "SPELL STRIKE"
3rd level - Feat: quickdraw
*Magus arcana, wand wielder. carry Mage armor, shield, and true strike wands as soon as you can afford them.
4th level- no feat. +1 int bump.
5th level - Feat: Aldori dueling mastery.
5th level Kensai bonus feat: Slashing Grace.
Use traits to gain two of these skills as class skills: Perception, Bluff, Stealth, Acrobatics. Use the favored class bonus for the skill point.
Merits?
1. Perception -Start with a reasonable chance to avoid surprise.
2. +5 initiative (until ADM at 5th- then its +7).
3. +5 Dex AC, +4 Mage Armor spell, +4 Shield spell (or +2 shield with ADM at 5th level), almost forgotten, Canny Defense: Per level and int bonus modifier gain a +1 dodge AC. (*1st:+1, 2nd:+2, 4th:+3)
Assuming you have Mage armor on - 1st level AC & touch AC: 19, 2nd level Ac: 20, 4th level Ac: 21, 5th level AC: 23 (touch ac 21).
4. you could use acrobatics to assist in tactical movement.
***Feats after this point could be anything beneficial to the build.
***there are adventures where one starts out stripped of all equipment - while the Brawler has no problems, neither so spontaneous, Spell like, and wizard "Spell mastery" characters are A-Okay.
The issue I fear is that this Kensai is utterly tied to its equipment and losing it for any reason... ouch.
I am tempted to Multi-class in one level of wizard-evoker specialist for the boon of a ranged capability and the purchase of the spell mastery feat, and using the Aldori Dueling Sword as my "Bonded Object".
Yes, this is not a magus strength build, or a Scimitar Critical hits focused build, but this concept seems fun to me...
I may try it.
Why pull out a 4 year old thread that is about somthing else, to post your build?