11th Level Monk + Enlarge Person + Strong Jaw + Brass Knuckles =?

[OgeXam]

Brass knuckles lets the monk use his unarmed strike damge for his brass knuckles damage dice.

11th level monk = 1d10
Monks Robes ~ 16th level monk = 2d8
Enlarge: 2d8 => 3d8
Strong Jaw: 3d8 => 4d8 => 6d8

Monk's attack with BKs is base 6d8 damage, right?

How about a 15th level monk = 2d6
Monks Robes ~ 20th level = 2d10
Enlarge: 2d10 => 4d8
Strong Jaw: 4d8 => 6d8 => 8d8

Not too shabby right? Is it over powered? The monk needs two spells and a magic item to pull this off.

[LoreKeeper]

What do you need the brass knuckles for? :P

[MaxBarton]

LoreKeeper wrote:

What do you need the brass knuckles for? :P

I'd assume to enchant them. Just isn't the focus of the what he asked about.

I don't honestly think it's overpowered. Fighters have quite a bit of hitting power as well. I'd be interested in seeing a DPR calculation on it though.

EDIT: Actually going back over it there might be a rules issue here. I wasn't really familiar with Strong Jaw. It 'should' work, but because Improved Unarmed Strike is banned for monks don't be surprised if a GM nixes its use for a monk.

They mention a similar concept here but nothing was really resolved.

Old Thread

[Shar Tahl]

I do not think Strong Jaw would effect the unarmed strikes RAW. It is not 100%clear, but seems RAI. Also from a purely logical standpoint, since natural weapons never gain more attacks from high BAB, an unarmed strike is not a natural weapon by mechanical definition.

Natural Weapons:

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.

Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.

You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition, all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting. Your natural attacks are treated as light, off-hand weapons for determining the penalty to your other attacks. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties

You will also note that in the Amulet of Mighty Fists, unarmed attacks and natural weapons are listed separately.

Amulet of Mighty Fists:

Amulet of Mighty Fists

Aura faint evocation; CL 5th

Slot neck; Price 5,000 gp (+1), 20,000 gp (+2), 45,000 gp (+3), 80,000 gp (+4), 125,000 gp (+5); Weight —

Description

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks. See Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities for a list of abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses. An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, greater magic fang, creator's caster level must be at least three times the amulet's bonus, plus any requirements of the melee weapon special abilities; Cost 2,500 gp (+1), 10,000 gp (+2), 22,500 gp (+3), 40,000 gp (+4), 62,500 gp (+5)

[Mauril]

It sort of depends on which table you start using when advancing attacks. On the weapon damage table, 2d8 does become 3d8. On the Natural Attack table, 2d8 becomes 4d6. I prefer this (mathematically) because it follows an easier trend that dealing with odd numbers of dice.

2d8 => 4d6 = 2d6+2d6 => 2d8+2d8 => 4d6+4d6 = 8d6. This also follows the suggestion in the description of Strong Jaw that says that if a creature is already colossal, just double its damage dice. It might be read that "if a creature already deals damage as a colossal creature..." in order to simplify things to already existent charts.

Now, an 11th level monk flurrying with 8d6 base damage is kind of staggering, honestly. Overpowered? Depends on your comparison. Compare it to wizards and their save or sucks and it's not that exciting. Compare it to a fighter and his falchion and you might find it being a bit much.

I end up with the same 8d8, though by a different method, for the 15th level damage. 8d8 is much less fearsome (at least by comparison) at this level than 8d6 is at level 11.

@LoreKeeper - So that those attacks can be enhanced with weapon enhancements.

[OgeXam]

The Brass Knuckles are for later enchantments to the BKs.

The BKs can be enchanted up to a +10 item: +5 disruption of speed Brass Knuckles.

Then add on an Amulet of Mighty Fists +0 flaming frost shock corrosive vicious.

Since amulet of mighty fists triggers on unarmed attacks and brass knuckles are unarmed attacks they would stack.

It is possible to have a +15 weapon using BKs and AoMF.

Though that is a cheese of a different color.

[Mauril]

OgeXam wrote:

The Brass Knuckles are for later enchantments to the BKs.

The BKs can be enchanted up to a +10 item: +5 disruption of speed Brass Knuckles.

Then add on an Amulet of Mighty Fists +0 flaming frost shock corrosive vicious.

Since amulet of mighty fists triggers on unarmed attacks and brass knuckles are unarmed attacks they would stack.

It is possible to have a +15 weapon using BKs and AoMF.

Though that is a horse of another cheese.

Also a horse of questionable legality. Brass Knuckles deal damage as unarmed strikes, but are otherwise manufactured weapons. Talk to your GM if AoMF stacks.

[OgeXam]

Shar Tahl wrote:

I do not think Strong Jaw would effect the unarmed strikes RAW. It is not 100%clear, but seems RAI. Also from a purely logical standpoint, since natural weapons never gain more attacks from high BAB, an unarmed strike is not a natural weapon by mechanical definition.

PRD-Monk wrote:

A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

PRD-Strong Jaw wrote:

Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is.

Monk's unarmed strike is based on his level and size as per the chart in monk.

Monk's Belt states you treat the monks level as higher.

All three are different bonus types and all stack!!!

[LoreKeeper]

Also at level 10 you can get Spring Attack as a bonus feat, and if your GM allows it to combo with Vital Strike/Improved Vital Strike, you can make a single "safe" attack a round at 16d8 or 24d8.

[Josh M Foster]

This seems entirely legal. The Strong-Jaw increases his unarmed strike damage, as does the belt. That damage can then be dealt through BKs. As he said, so long as different attack boosters are applied to the Amulet than the BKs, those would also stack.

Great pummeling fun.

[Bobson]

It's perfectly legal, except for the brass knuckles. Those are highly suspect. They do damage as per your unarmed strike. It's unclear whether or not they do damage as per your magically enhanced unarmed strike, or simply how much you'd normally do based on your monk level. Specifically, do you lose the "counts as a natural weapon" property of a monk's unarmed strike when you use brass knuckles? That would mean that an AoMF and Brass knuckles don't stack (which makes perfect sense), Greater Magic Fang and brass knuckles don't stack (which also makes perfect sense), and Strong Jaw and brass knuckles don't stack (which is a bit more reasonable).

There's also the question of whether your brass knuckles need to be ki focus in order to use stunning fist and such with them.

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

It's perfectly legal, except for the brass knuckles. Those are highly suspect. They do damage as per your unarmed strike. It's unclear whether or not they do damage as per your magically enhanced unarmed strike, or simply how much you'd normally do based on your monk level. Specifically, do you lose the "counts as a natural weapon" property of a monk's unarmed strike when you use brass knuckles? That would mean that an AoMF and Brass knuckles don't stack (which makes perfect sense), Greater Magic Fang and brass knuckles don't stack (which also makes perfect sense), and Strong Jaw and brass knuckles don't stack (which is a bit more reasonable).

There's also the question of whether your brass knuckles need to be ki focus in order to use stunning fist and such with them.

This actually brings up a very good point. Brass knuckles only use the monk's Unarmed Damage which is a list on the table. By RAW I would think the monk would not be able to gain the benefit of spells effecting natural weapons.

EDIT: I could be wrong, but that's probably how I'd run it in a game of mine.

[Venomblade]

I have another question very much related to this. Lets say that this monk is a Zen Archer, If he spends a ki point to do his unarmed damage with his bow would he still be getting all of these "base" damage bonuses.

I know the amulet would not enhance his arrows. But would Enlarge, Strong Jaw?

I am thinking that Enlarge Person would not because it states in its spell description that projectiles return to their normal size.

I do think strong jaw would work though.

What do you guys think?

-Venom

[Josh M Foster]

Brass Knuckles wrote:

Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their Monk unarmed damage when fighting with them.

The weapon calls out monk unarmed damage. A Monk's Belt therefore works no matter what. The question with Strong Jaw is the treatment of size. The monk's table already accounts for monks larger or smaller by one step, why not two? The effective size change doesn't give some discrete bonus like 2d6 or 1d8, but it changes the monk unarmed damage wholesale. I'd say that means that you're treated as a monk of [x] size for the damage, which means the BK convert all of that to damage.

Otherwise every halfling monk should use BK, as they ignore size.

So, too with Zen Archery. Your monk unarmed damage has changed, it hasn't had a number simply added to it

[Venomblade]

Alorha wrote:

So, too with Zen Archery. Your monk unarmed damage has changed, it hasn't had a number simply added to it

So you think the base damage increase from enlarge person would also be granted to the arrows using a ki point to change the damage to the monks unarmed damage as well?

[morden ghaver]

AoMF provides bonuses on unarmed and natural attacks. Brass knuckles are manufactured weapons, so I don't see that they would receive the AoMF bonuses, regardless of whether a monk can apply their unarmed damage when making attacks with them.

[OgeXam]

Actually Brass Knuckles are listed under the Unarmed section of the weapons table in the APG.

Just like gauntlets and unarmed strike in the core table.

Plus the description of Brass Knuckles states: "They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks."

Therefore Brass Knuckles is an Unarmed Attack, which the AoMF will kick in since it helps Unarmed Attacks!

[Galnörag]

Mauril wrote:

OgeXam wrote:

The Brass Knuckles are for later enchantments to the BKs.

The BKs can be enchanted up to a +10 item: +5 disruption of speed Brass Knuckles.

Then add on an Amulet of Mighty Fists +0 flaming frost shock corrosive vicious.

Since amulet of mighty fists triggers on unarmed attacks and brass knuckles are unarmed attacks they would stack.

It is possible to have a +15 weapon using BKs and AoMF.

Though that is a horse of another cheese.

Also a horse of questionable legality. Brass Knuckles deal damage as unarmed strikes, but are otherwise manufactured weapons. Talk to your GM if AoMF stacks.

I thought AoMF and Brass Knuckles don't stack by raw, the higher bonus item suppress the lower.

[Bobson]

OgeXam wrote:

Actually Brass Knuckles are listed under the Unarmed section of the weapons table in the APG.

Just like gauntlets and unarmed strike in the core table.

Plus the description of Brass Knuckles states: "They allow you to deal lethal damage with unarmed attacks."

Therefore Brass Knuckles is an Unarmed Attack, which the AoMF will kick in since it helps Unarmed Attacks!

Except then you're making an attack with brass knuckles (which can be enchanted as a melee weapon), not with your unarmed attack. They just do base damage equal to your normal base unarmed attack damage, rather than the fixed value that gauntlets do.

To try and settle this argument for good, I present the following argument: "Unarmed damage" for a monk is a defined value in the rules which is entirely table-driven.

]Monks are proficient with brass knuckles and can use their Monk unarmed damage when fighting with them

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#table-3-10-monk wrote:

Monk Class table headers]Level Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Special Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus Unarmed Damage AC Bonus Fast Movement

[url=http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/classes/monk.html#unarmed-strike wrote:

Monk's Unarmed Damage ability[/url]]A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.

The argument goes as follows: Monks have an ability called "Unarmed Damage" which you either read off their class table the same way you would read off their saves, or is looked up on the small/large table if you're a different size. Anything that refers to the monk's "Unarmed Damage" is referring to this value. A Monk's belt treats you as five levels higher for AC and unarmed damage. AoMF gives you bonus damage on your attacks, but that doesn't change your Unarmed Damage value any more than adding a +5 or flaming enchant to a greatsword changes it from being a 2d6 weapon.

Brass knuckles have a special weapon property that they do damage equal to the Monk's Unarmed Damage value. This is looked up straight from the appropriate table (as modified by the monk's belt, and calculated as necessary if you're too large or small for the existing tables), and is not modified by anything else that might be buffing your unarmed strikes. They can be enchanted in their own right with any melee weapon enchants, just like a greatsword. This doesn't stack with an AoMF any more than having magical armor spikes stacks with having a magical greatsword.

Strong Jaw looks like a questionable case, but when you read it closely, it becomes obvious how to apply it: "Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is." Attacks with brass knuckles are attacks with a manufactured weapon that happens to deal the same amount of damage as your unarmed strike. Since they're not natural attacks themselves (and no one can argue that they are, even if you disagree with the rest of my post), you're not making attacks with natural weapons, and thus Strong Jaw doesn't help them.

[MaxBarton]

I actually asked James Jacobs about this and his statements were...

James Jacobs wrote:

Whether or not all that stuff could and should stack together for unarmed strikes is, frankly, up to the individual GM. I think it's probably over the top. Monks (despite what everyone seems to think) are supposed to be more defensive than offensive—they're supposed to be really hard to take down, and so while they might not do as MUCH damage as a fighter or a barbarian on a round by round basis... they'll be in the fight longer than those guys since they've got good AC and saves and defenses, and in the end, while it might have taken them longer, they'll have done the same damage as a fighter more or less.

That's the basic theory, at least.

Doesn't stop folks from constantly trying to twist and sift the rules to overwhelm their unarmed strikes.

Now... looking at all of those options... most of them would probably work quite well together, but it costs a lot of money and takes a lot of time. By which point other characters in the party are doing things that are equally bad-ass.

So its really up to the GM's comfort level if he wants to alow this. My advice: compare the results to an equal level and equally...

I would have to agree with what he said. It may stack but it would be a hard trick to pull off.

Galnörag wrote:

I thought AoMF and Brass Knuckles don't stack by raw, the higher bonus item suppress the lower.

They're both enhancement so yes the lesser one would be suppressed. This doesn't stop the monk from using the AoMF from just putting weapon abilities on it, in which case they both work. AoMF doesn't require it to have an enhancement bonus.

[Bobson]

MaxBarton wrote:

I actually asked James Jacobs about this and his statements were...

Can you link to his post? I'm curious what options he was actually looking at when he posted it.

Galnörag wrote:

I thought AoMF and Brass Knuckles don't stack by raw, the higher bonus item suppress the lower.

They're both enhancement so yes the lesser one would be suppressed. This doesn't stop the monk from using the AoMF from just putting weapon abilities on it, in which case they both work. AoMF doesn't require it to have an enhancement bonus.

No matter what, I would not allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack their enchants - no weapon ever stacks its enchants with a separate weapon, with the specific exception of a bow boosting ammunition it fires.

[MaxBarton]

James' Post

I asked about Enlarge Person, Strong Jaw, Monk's Robe, Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Brass Knuckles.

While I agree that I wouldn't allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack (of course I hate Brass Knuckles for monks) I only brought that up for a RAW interpretation. I think it's a bit too cheesy.

Nothing I know of prevents the weapon abilities from stacking.

[Bobson]

MaxBarton wrote:

James' Post

I asked about Enlarge Person, Strong Jaw, Monk's Robe, Amulet of Mighty Fists, and Brass Knuckles.

Thanks.

Quote:

While I agree that I wouldn't allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack (of course I hate Brass Knuckles for monks) I only brought that up for a RAW interpretation. I think it's a bit too cheesy.

Nothing I know of prevents the weapon abilities from stacking.

Nothing I know of allows them to stack. Where does that leave us?

[grasshopper_ea]

OgeXam wrote:

Brass knuckles lets the monk use his unarmed strike damge for his brass knuckles damage dice.

11th level monk = 1d10
Monks Robes ~ 16th level monk = 2d8
Enlarge: 2d8 => 3d8
Strong Jaw: 3d8 => 4d8 => 6d8

Monk's attack with BKs is base 6d8 damage, right?

How about a 15th level monk = 2d6
Monks Robes ~ 20th level = 2d10
Enlarge: 2d10 => 4d8
Strong Jaw: 4d8 => 6d8 => 8d8

Not too shabby right? Is it over powered? The monk needs two spells and a magic item to pull this off.

If you take brass knuckles out of the equation this works. If you hit with brass knuckles you are no longer hitting with a natural weapon, but a manufactured weapon. You gotta choose one way or the other.

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

Quote:

While I agree that I wouldn't allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack (of course I hate Brass Knuckles for monks) I only brought that up for a RAW interpretation. I think it's a bit too cheesy.

Nothing I know of prevents the weapon abilities from stacking.

Nothing I know of allows them to stack. Where does that leave us?

I think the easiest way to see how they 'would' stack is looking at a precedent set by 3.5 weapon crystals. While equipped into magic weapons they were in fact a separate item but still provided bonuses to attack. All the amulet is in a sense is a weapon crystal around your neck.

Also as far as I know weapon abilities are not a typed bonus and so stack by rules.

I don't like it personally, which is why I think most GMs will make their own decision there.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

If you take brass knuckles out of the equation this works. If you hit with brass knuckles you are no longer hitting with a natural weapon, but a manufactured weapon. You gotta choose one way or the other.

While I want to agree I have to disagree. The spell does in fact only modify your normal natural attacks; however Brass Knuckles specifically use your unarmed damage to determine their damage. There is no stipulation saying that the unarmed damage can't have been modified by something.

[Belafon]

OgeXam wrote:

Brass knuckles lets the monk use his unarmed strike damge for his brass knuckles damage dice.

11th level monk = 1d10
Monks Robes ~ 16th level monk = 2d8
Enlarge: 2d8 => 3d8
Strong Jaw: 3d8 => 4d8 => 6d8

Monk's attack with BKs is base 6d8 damage, right?

How about a 15th level monk = 2d6
Monks Robes ~ 20th level = 2d10
Enlarge: 2d10 => 4d8
Strong Jaw: 4d8 => 6d8 => 8d8

Not too shabby right? Is it over powered? The monk needs two spells and a magic item to pull this off.

Curse you OgeXam. I was attempting to hide that particular bit of cheese until this year's grinder.

[Bobson]

MaxBarton wrote:

Bobson wrote:

Quote:

While I agree that I wouldn't allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack (of course I hate Brass Knuckles for monks) I only brought that up for a RAW interpretation. I think it's a bit too cheesy.

Nothing I know of prevents the weapon abilities from stacking.

Nothing I know of allows them to stack. Where does that leave us?

I think the easiest way to see how they 'would' stack is looking at a precedent set by 3.5 weapon crystals. While equipped into magic weapons they were in fact a separate item but still provided bonuses to attack. All the amulet is in a sense is a weapon crystal around your neck.

Also as far as I know weapon abilities are not a typed bonus and so stack by rules.

I don't like it personally, which is why I think most GMs will make their own decision there.

There's nothing in the AoMF description that would make it act at all like a weapon crystal.

In fact, having just looked at it, it specifically says "This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons. Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks." Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack. They are a manufactured weapon with which the monk "can use their Monk unarmed damage when fighting with them." I'll admit there can be debate over whether the "unarmed damage" here uses your buffed or base monk damage, but regardless, it doesn't count as an unarmed attack. If it did, monks wouldn't need to be proficient with brass knuckles, because they're already proficient with unarmed attacks.

Personally, I maintain that my position that BKs use the unarmed damage tables and nothing else that might be buffing the monk's unarmed attacks is the (poorly worded) RAW. (EDIT: Monk's robe works because it modifies the tables, as does enlarge person and possibly strong jaw.)

[grasshopper_ea]

MaxBarton wrote:

Bobson wrote:

Quote:

While I agree that I wouldn't allow AoMF and Brass Knuckles to stack (of course I hate Brass Knuckles for monks) I only brought that up for a RAW interpretation. I think it's a bit too cheesy.

Nothing I know of prevents the weapon abilities from stacking.

Nothing I know of allows them to stack. Where does that leave us?

I think the easiest way to see how they 'would' stack is looking at a precedent set by 3.5 weapon crystals. While equipped into magic weapons they were in fact a separate item but still provided bonuses to attack. All the amulet is in a sense is a weapon crystal around your neck.

Also as far as I know weapon abilities are not a typed bonus and so stack by rules.

I don't like it personally, which is why I think most GMs will make their own decision there.

grasshopper_ea wrote:

If you take brass knuckles out of the equation this works. If you hit with brass knuckles you are no longer hitting with a natural weapon, but a manufactured weapon. You gotta choose one way or the other.

While I want to agree I have to disagree. The spell does in fact only modify your normal natural attacks; however Brass Knuckles specifically use your unarmed damage to determine their damage. There is no stipulation saying that the unarmed damage can't have been modified by something.

The brass knuckles are not a natural attack therefore cannot benefit from anything that augments only natural attacks.

[OgeXam]

Belafon wrote:

Curse you OgeXam. I was attempting to hide that particular bit of cheese until this year's grinder.

Hahahaha...

You do know I am constantly working on where players can cheese so we an cut you off at the pass, right?

Sorry to prempt your cheese. I am sure you can surprise us with something.

[OgeXam]

Bobson wrote:

...Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack...

That is incorrect, Brass knuckles are listed as an unarmed attack.

Look at "Table: Weapons" in the APG or the PRD and look at the categories of types of simple weapons listed are:
Unarmed Attacks
Light Melee Weapons
Two-Handed Melee Weapons

Brass Knuckles are listed under <b>Unarmed Attacks</b>.

Therefore brass knuckles are unarmed attacks when applied to AoMF since AoMF states it modifies unarmed attacks.

[OgeXam]

The damage that brass knuckles do must be compared to your current unarmed damage. Buffed up and all. Not your "natural" unarmed damage.

If you went when natural unarmed damage then the following would work.
An 11th level ogre monk does 2d8 damage
The ogre monk is baleful polymorphed into a monkey.
Now he is sized tiny. Luckily he finds a set of tiny brass knuckles and puts them on.
What is his damage? Is it still 2d8? Or is it 1d6?

If you follow the logic of your damage is what it is ignoring spells this tiny monkey would be doing 2d8 with a punch.
If you follow the logic of your damage takes into account all ongoing spell effects the monkey woudl be donig 1d6 with a punch.

[grasshopper_ea]

OgeXam wrote:

Bobson wrote:

...Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack...

That is incorrect, Brass knuckles are listed as an unarmed attack.

Look at "Table: Weapons" in the APG or the PRD and look at the categories of types of simple weapons listed are:
Unarmed Attacks
Light Melee Weapons
Two-Handed Melee Weapons

Brass Knuckles are listed under <b>Unarmed Attacks</b>.

Therefore brass knuckles are unarmed attacks when applied to AoMF since AoMF states it modifies unarmed attacks.

Any GM that's dumb enough to let you play it that way deserves what he gets. Brass knuckles are not unarmed attacks they are armed attacks that happen to do more damage if a monk puts them on. They don't suddenly become a natural weapon. As such they qualify as a weapon for enchantment, sundering being targeted by spells that target weapons, etc. and someone not trained in unarmed combat can use them without taking AoO's.

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

There's nothing in the AoMF description that would make it act at all like a weapon crystal.

In fact, having just looked at it, it specifically says "This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons. Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks." Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack. They are a manufactured weapon with which the monk "can use their Monk unarmed damage when fighting with them." I'll admit there can be debate over whether the "unarmed damage" here uses your buffed or base monk damage, but regardless, it doesn't count as an unarmed attack. If it did, monks wouldn't need to be proficient with brass knuckles, because they're already proficient with unarmed attacks.

Personally, I maintain that my position that BKs use the unarmed damage tables and nothing else that might be buffing the monk's unarmed attacks is the (poorly worded) RAW. (EDIT: Monk's robe works because it modifies the tables, as does enlarge person and possibly strong jaw.)

As OgeXam has stated Brass Knuckles are considered an unarmed strike on the weapon type. They function as a unique item in that regard. While they may be a simple weapon that still requires proficiency, they count as unarmed strikes.

I only brought up the weapon crystal as an example of how two items can both augment a weapon by adding damage.

grasshopper wrote:

The brass knuckles are not a natural attack therefore cannot benefit from anything that augments only natural attacks.

They aren't a natural attack, but they benefit from a monk's current unarmed damage which is for a monk considered a natural attack.

[Bobson]

OgeXam wrote:

Bobson wrote:

...Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack...

That is incorrect, Brass knuckles are listed as an unarmed attack.

Look at "Table: Weapons" in the APG or the PRD and look at the categories of types of simple weapons listed are:
Unarmed Attacks
Light Melee Weapons
Two-Handed Melee Weapons

Brass Knuckles are listed under <b>Unarmed Attacks</b>.

Therefore brass knuckles are unarmed attacks when applied to AoMF since AoMF states it modifies unarmed attacks.

So you hold that a monk with a AoMF(brilliant energy, vicious), Brass Knuckles(+1 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed) and a permanencied Greater Magic Fang(20th level) would have the equivalent of a +5 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed, vicious, brilliant energy fist? A +20 weapon?

Calculations:

Assuming the target doesn't have any elemental resists, that's 6d6+5+1 bleed extra damage on each attack, bypassing all armor, and with an extra attack each turn. This costs him 125000+200000+(20*3*10+9*5*10+7500) = 333550 gold. Well within the resources of a 20th level character, and available earlier if you skimp on other things. The 20th level monk would also have 7 attacks on a flurry, +1 from ki, +2 potentially from Medusa's Wrath. So we're up to 11 attacks (including speed), all of which do 2d10+6d6+5+1bleed+STR, and will auto-hit anything that relies on armor for AC. Assuming average damage and a +10 strength mod (which is not hard to come by at that level), we're up to 517+11bleed if all attacks hit (I didn't plug this into a DPR calculator to provide that number).

I really don't think that you can say that's balanced.

[Bobson]

OgeXam wrote:

The damage that brass knuckles do must be compared to your current unarmed damage. Buffed up and all. Not your "natural" unarmed damage.

If you went when natural unarmed damage then the following would work.
An 11th level ogre monk does 2d8 damage
The ogre monk is baleful polymorphed into a monkey.
Now he is sized tiny. Luckily he finds a set of tiny brass knuckles and puts them on.
What is his damage? Is it still 2d8? Or is it 1d6?

If you follow the logic of your damage is what it is ignoring spells this tiny monkey would be doing 2d8 with a punch.
If you follow the logic of your damage takes into account all ongoing spell effects the monkey woudl be donig 1d6 with a punch.

See my edit about things that alter the table. Having your size changed changes the table you look up your unarmed damage on - but you still look it up on a table and use whatever you find there. Ditto the Monk's Robe (Look at the line for a monk 5 levels higher than you).

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

I really don't think that you can say that's balanced.

There are some "balancing" points but little to make it on the whole balanced. First is the sheer cost to pull it off. Technically a 17th level character could potentially own this... of course such a character would be dead within the first turn of a combat. He'd have no defensive items. Some other things balance it out as well.

1. Perfect access to all of this equipment. I've never had an opportunity where a character could pull it off, not saying it couldn't be done, but it'd be a heck of a task. Granted that's just my personal experience.

2. It takes a lot for granted, particularly that the enemy has no elemental resistances or damage reduction. Also the build would primarily work only against enemies relying on armor as you said, but keep in mind brilliant energy does not bypass natural armor.

3. A two handed fighter may only have a +10 weapon by this point but he'll have tons of stat boosting items and feats. Under this example they'd of course also probably be enlarged and have magical effects making their strength ridiculous (much higher than a monk's). Most fighters aren't going to need the brilliant energy because they'll be hitting everything anyway (if the monk can have perfect equipment there is no reason a fighter isn't going to have enough strength to pull off almost always hitting). They'll also not be limited to not fighting constructs and undead which the monk is going to be screwed against. Their weapon will also have a higher chance of critical hits with a higher critical modifier.

On top of that the fighter won't have too many problems still having very nice armor.

Granted at levels above 15 things start getting ridiculous anyway. Archers will also get tons of attacks and not be limited much by having to be next to their enemies.

_____________________________________________________________________

Summary: I think it probably can pull out more damage under perfect circumstances than a fighter, but the chances of such a build actually being possible to pull off is very unlikely. That and most rational GMs won't make it possible to pull off or will houserule it. Honestly I see it more annoying than broken.

I'm not going to say that it's balanced, but things at very high level really aren't, and I doubt the developer's intended for such a combination to be possible.

EDIT: Also after seeing this there's no way I'd allow a monk or give access to him to be able to do this. Things like this is why I'm moving to playing E6 style games. I'm only arguing what I see the RAW being.

[Bobson]

MaxBarton wrote:

Bobson wrote:

I really don't think that you can say that's balanced.

There are some "balancing" points but little to make it on the whole balanced. First is the sheer cost to pull it off. Technically a 17th level character could potentially own this... of course such a character would be dead within the first turn of a combat. He'd have no defensive items. Some other things balance it out as well.

The cost is not unreasonable. Out of a 20th level character's wealth, there's enough to pay for all of it, +6 to Str, dex, con, and wisdom, +5 inherent to strength, +3 inherent to wisdom, +12 AC (Bracers 8, ring 4), and a ring of freedom of movement. At 17th level, yeah, he'd be hosed. But the fighter doesn't have a +10 weapon at 17th level either.

Quote:

2. It takes a lot for granted, particularly that the enemy has no elemental resistances or damage reduction. Also the build would primarily work only against enemies relying on armor as you said, but keep in mind brilliant energy does not bypass natural armor.

True, but the monk can always take off the AoMF. I could have gone with a different +4 worth of bonuses, I just like Brilliant energy.

Quote:

3. A two handed fighter may only have a +10 weapon by this point but he'll have tons of stat boosting items and feats. Under this example they'd of course also probably be enlarged and have magical effects making their strength ridiculous (much higher than a monk's). Most fighters aren't going to need the brilliant energy because they'll be hitting everything anyway (if the monk can have perfect equipment there is no reason a fighter isn't going to have enough strength to pull off almost always hitting). They'll also not be limited to not fighting constructs and undead which the monk is going to be screwed against. Their weapon will also have a higher chance of critical hits with a higher critical modifier.

The monk could benefit from everything the fighter could get except the +4 from weapon training and the +4 from weapon specialization and greater specialization. It's true the fighter would have better weapon selections, but no weapon they could get does 2d10 damage.

Quote:

Granted at levels above 15 things start getting ridiculous anyway. Archers will also get tons of attacks and not be limited much by having to be next to their enemies.

This is quite true. I just wanted to show the fully-maxed out build. If I do an actual DPR comparison, I'll probably do it at level 10 or so.

Finally, relying on the GM to prevent brokenness from happening, while realistic, does not matter in a discussion of RAW. Given a broken interpretation of RAW or a non-broken one, both of which appear to be a valid reading, I'll always choose to believe the non-broken one was intended.

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

Finally, relying on the GM to prevent brokenness from happening, while realistic, does not matter in a discussion of RAW. Given a broken interpretation of RAW or a non-broken one, both of which appear to be a valid reading, I'll always choose to believe the non-broken one was intended.

And this I understand and agree that this was not intended. Even as I quoted James above, monks are not supposed to be primary damage dealers. I definitely agree with this sentiment even in 3.5. It always irritated me when people would start houseruling them to ridiculous levels because the monk "sucks."

In this case I see the RAW but don't agree with it. Let the monk disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple everyone while the fighter smashes :p

[Ravingdork]

grasshopper_ea wrote:

OgeXam wrote:

Bobson wrote:

...Brass knuckles are not an unarmed attack...

That is incorrect, Brass knuckles are listed as an unarmed attack.

Look at "Table: Weapons" in the APG or the PRD and look at the categories of types of simple weapons listed are:
Unarmed Attacks
Light Melee Weapons
Two-Handed Melee Weapons

Brass Knuckles are listed under <b>Unarmed Attacks</b>.

Therefore brass knuckles are unarmed attacks when applied to AoMF since AoMF states it modifies unarmed attacks.

Any GM that's dumb enough to let you play it that way deserves what he gets.

As a GM who not only would allow this, but sees it as the RAW, I take extreme offense at your statement.

I am not "dumb" just because I interpret a game's rules differently from you.

[John Kretzer]

I can see by RAW everything working together.

As using AoMF and magical brass knucles could be seen as using a a +5 Bow with +1 Flaming arrows.

Just my two cets on it.

In my game I'll probably keep the brass knucles and the AoMF from stacking...as well as Enlarge and Strong Jaw. But that would be a house rule.

[MaxBarton]

John Kretzer wrote:

I can see by RAW everything working together.

As using AoMF and magical brass knucles could be seen as using a a +5 Bow with +1 Flaming arrows.

Just my two cets on it.

In my game I'll probably keep the brass knucles and the AoMF from stacking...as well as Enlarge and Strong Jaw. But that would be a house rule.

This is how I feel. In my opinion if they want to stack Enlarge and Strong Jaw I'm ok with that, as they have to spend turns getting those powered up. I'm not too much a fan on brass knuckles and AoMF stacking though.

Ravingdork wrote:

As a GM who not only would allow this, but sees it as the RAW, I take extreme offense at your statement.

I am not "dumb" just because I interpret a game's rules differently from you

+1

Nah better make it a +20 for this ;)

[wraithstrike]

MaxBarton wrote:

John Kretzer wrote:

I can see by RAW everything working together.

As using AoMF and magical brass knucles could be seen as using a a +5 Bow with +1 Flaming arrows.

Just my two cets on it.

In my game I'll probably keep the brass knucles and the AoMF from stacking...as well as Enlarge and Strong Jaw. But that would be a house rule.

This is how I feel. In my opinion if they want to stack Enlarge and Strong Jaw I'm ok with that, as they have to spend turns getting those powered up. I'm not too much a fan on brass knuckles and AoMF stacking though.

\

+1.

While I think grasshopper worded it badly. I think he was saying that if a GM allows it to stack and it ruins his game it is the DM's own fault. If it stacks and his game is not bothered by it then game one.
Using words that attack people such as stupid and so on is bad form.

[OgeXam]

Bobson wrote:

So you hold that a monk with a AoMF(brilliant energy, vicious), Brass Knuckles(+1 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed) and a permanencied Greater Magic Fang(20th level) would have the equivalent of a +5 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed, vicious, brilliant energy fist? A +20 weapon?

I really don't think that you can say that's balanced.

Well the Greater Magic Fang would have no effect. So only a +15 is possible using only one AoMF.

The reason GMF has no effect is it modified only "natural weapon or unarmed strike" and not an unarmed attack. There is a big difference in attack and strike.

Do I think it is balanced, more then likely not, but no game system is balanced, they all have holes to be abused.

Would I as a DM in my home campaigns allow this? Sure but remember what the players do so can the monsters!

[OgeXam]

I am not concerned about balance. I am concerned about RAW!

If the rules say you can do it, I have to be ready to deal with it.

Just like in Pathfinder Society, they have to make rules that can go against RAW to make sure there is the same and level playing field around the world and not just at one guys dinner table. Things have to be consistent to work correctly.

For The Cheese Grinder we pretty much challenge the players to find these holes in the rule and exploit them. We want our players to shock us with some combo that is legal. Because we are going to bring it right back to them from the DMs side. All legal, just insane fun!

[thepuregamer]

I am slightly confused.

Not about AoMFs stacking, that makes perfect sense even if balance gets destroyed. As long as they are in different body slots(or unslotted) and they hand off different enhancements it should be fine.

It also makes sense that AoMFs should stack with brass knuckles.

AoMF enhances unarmed attacks and brass knuckles are in the unarmed attacks category. Seems perfectly RAW.

I can understand GMW cast on the knuckles stacking(I do not mean adding together enhancement bonuses) with the AoMF as well.

What confuses me is how this allows us to bypass the +10 rule for magical weapons?

prd magic weapon section wrote:

A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents, including those from character abilities and spells) higher than +10

AoMF gives the knuckles an enhancement bonus or it gives abilities that have equivalent enhancement bonus values. I would think you end up having to pick and choose what 10 points of enhancement you weapon holds onto.

On the point of strong jaw working with brass knuckles, I remember being told that the language of strong jaw implies it is not active until you attack with your unarmed strike.

"Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage "

Not sure your BK would get the strong jaw boost in that scenario.

[Bobson]

OgeXam wrote:

Bobson wrote:

So you hold that a monk with a AoMF(brilliant energy, vicious), Brass Knuckles(+1 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed) and a permanencied Greater Magic Fang(20th level) would have the equivalent of a +5 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed, vicious, brilliant energy fist? A +20 weapon?

I really don't think that you can say that's balanced.

Well the Greater Magic Fang would have no effect. So only a +15 is possible using only one AoMF.

The reason GMF has no effect is it modified only "natural weapon or unarmed strike" and not an unarmed attack. There is a big difference in attack and strike.

Except the argument that's being made is that the brass knuckles do however much damage as your unarmed strikes would do, no matter what's buffing your unarmed strikes. AoMF has the same language as Greater Magic Fang. Either they both stack or neither does. (You all know which of those I choose.)

[MaxBarton]

Bobson wrote:

Except the argument that's being made is that the brass knuckles do however much damage as your unarmed strikes would do, no matter what's buffing your unarmed strikes. AoMF has the same language as Greater Magic Fang. Either they both stack or neither does. (You all know which of those I choose.)

*Prepares to enter really murky waters*

Ok, I see what you're saying with Greater Magic Fang.

That Brass Knuckles use unarmed strike damage when being computed.

Greater Magic Fang modifies your unarmed strike or natural weapon.

d20pfsrd wrote:

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls.

Emphasis Mine.

Because Brass knuckles are listed in the weapon type "Unarmed attack" they don't qualify.

I really hate Brass Knuckles...

I guess it is possible that Unarmed Strike =/= Unarmed Attack
If that is true then Greater Magic Fang wouldn't work because it does modify the 'strike' not the 'attack.'

d20pfsrd wrote:

This amulet grants an enhancement bonus of +1 to +5 on attack and damage rolls with unarmed attacks and natural weapons.

Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks.

Emphasis mine.

AoMF applies to unarmed attacks so would still work. They are not modifying the Brass Knuckles themselves but applying to the attack type that the weapon makes.

EDIT: Also the only reason the enhancement bonus doesn't directly come into effect is that Brass Knuckles specify using monk unarmed damage. Anything that directly modifies that or is applied afterward (AoMF) still stack. Greater Magic Fang does not modify the monk unarmed damage table. It modifies the attack itself.

I have no idea if any of that made sense...

[thepuregamer]

ah I get what is going on now. You are getting your +20 out of +10 of effects hitting an unarmed strike and +10 of effects hitting a bk...
and one gets all this from the line saying you use your monk unarmed damage in the brass knuckles description.

Makes more sense now. Though I think you can't get more than +5 enhancement bonus. Because multiple enhancement bonuses still do not stack. But I guess you could aim for 15 points of weapon abilities. lol... not sure that is their intent but it could be one interpretation(a controversial one).Most people would say it just gets you your monk unarmed damage unmodified but the bk description does not mention base monk unarmed damage.

I was like wtf for a sec.

Either way, you still do not get strong jaw on your brass knuckles. But you could wear your monk's robe and switch in 5 lvls of fighter and wear the dueling gloves underneath your bk.

If you are gonna be an exploiter you might as well skip the last 5 pointless lvls of monk.

[MaxBarton]

"+5 flaming, frost, shocking, corrosive, wounding, speed, vicious, brilliant energy fist"

That was the +20 being used for example.

Strong Jaw should work because it's modifying your unarmed damage size, much like enlarge person would. In fact the two abilities stack.

[Majuba]

thepuregamer wrote:

What confuses me is how this allows us to bypass the +10 rule for magical weapons?

Very very good question - they wouldn't bypass the +10 rule (as not even bows stacking bypass that rule). You can't count the Amulet of Might Fists separate from the Brass Knuckles for this, if you're going to count them together for anything else.

Of course, the brokenness really isn't at the +20 level. It's at the +4 knuckles with a flaming, shocking, vicious amulet, getting +7 in abilities (normally 98k) for only 77k, when it's supposed to be *MORE* expensive for unarmed strike.

Ridiculous to let them stack.