Director of Brand Strategy
|
I've got one.
Will the change in how animals with 3int interact with handle animal allow me to change my PFS Druid in anyway?
No. Blog FAQs are off limits for PFS. If a blog is linked to by an official FAQ then it becomes part of the FAQ (always considered legal unless otherwise noted), but simply being posted on the blog by a Paizo designer does not make content or clarifications legal for PFS.
|
No. Blog FAQs are off limits for PFS. If a blog is linked to by an official FAQ then it becomes part of the FAQ (always considered legal unless otherwise noted), but simply being posted on the blog by a Paizo designer does not make content or clarifications legal for PFS.
Is there a specific question you wanted answered?
While I appreciate that the blog content is off limits, this isn't the addition of rules content or rules resources. Rather, it is a repositioning of what is being designed as the standard interpretation of what is otherwise an undefined area of the rules. PFS has made a point of saying that the intent is to minimize situations where rule changes are needed for the purposes of organized play. To date, the vocal interpretation about animal companions with an intelligence of 3 has led to certain builds for both characters and companions. That vocal interpretation is no longer akin to a universal interpretation of the everyday rules.
So, while the the blog entry may not be legal, nor is it illegal, as it changes nothing. And, it will tend toward becoming a more typical interpretation in everyday play, which will then leak over into organized play.
That said, here are the issues of the interpretation presented in the Blog:
1) Do animals with Intelligence of 3 possess language? This has been a cornerstone of the position that animal companions don't require Handle Animal checks or training. It is undefined in the core rules. The blog provides support for the idea that instant intelligence bump doesn't equate to instant language comprehension. Instead, it supports a position that it should be seen as taking years to develop such comprehension.
2) Do animals with Intelligence of 3 need to be controlled via Handle Animal? Based upon the language idea, many players with animals who have intelligence of 3 or higher have not acquired Handle Animal skill ranks to control their animals nor have trained their animals. The blog provides support for the interpretation that regardless of language comprehension, Handle Animal is still needed to control animals. Yet, many players have cheerfully dropped this from their character development.
3) Can animals with Intelligence of 3 or higher be trained to use weapons via feat or trait? This has come up in this forum, primarily regarding apes using weapons. The ruling has been made here that said animal is good go and can use the weapon. The blog provides support for the interpretation that this isn't the case and leaves it up to the GM. This one is on more stable ground than the language and Handle Animal issues, but whenever there is a statement that it is up the the GM in organized play, then camps are created by those who see the campaign administrators as the GMs and those who see the guy at the table being the GM.
So, while the blog may be "off-limits," these are reasonable interpretations of existing and unchanged rules that will gain currency. They affect character build matters regarding the selection of skills, feats, and equipment. When there is table variance on these non-transactional elements, the campaign's structure cries out for administrators to identify what happens in this campaign.
Thanks.
|
|
... but whenever there is a statement that it is up the the GM in organized play, then camps are created by those who see the campaign administrators as the GMs and those who see the guy at the table being the GM.
- As far as PFS is concerned Hyrum Savage and Mark Moreland are the GM. They make the calls concerning the campaign (including the pole-ape issue).
- Coordinators will help with interpretation of RAW and rulings reference as far as they are able and can settle immediate disputes at a given venue.- The "table guy" runs the game and has authority during the game.
|
People that have characters that exist within these edge cases had better just prepare for heavy table variation if they play outside of a small local group.
For example.
*I am decidedly anti-apes with weapons. This article supports my position. If you have an ape with a weapon and expect him/her to fight at full efficiency prepare to be shot down when I'm judging. That said, I know a few people within my area that thinks apes should be able to do everyone humans do.
*I have a character with an animal companion and zero ranks in Handle Animal. According to that blog post handle animal is still a necessity to control even an intelligent (INT 3) companion. The general interpretation prior to this blog was that intelligent animals didn't need Handle Animal checks to control them. Now I suspect that will change. This character will need to reallocate his skill points to support this change.
|
*I am decidedly anti-apes with weapons. This article supports my position. If you have an ape with a weapon and expect him/her to fight at full efficiency prepare to be shot down when I'm judging.
Blog FAQs are off limits for PFS.
Since Moreland tells us for PFS the article doesn't exist. Why exactly can't (Int3) apes be trained to wield weapons? They have hands, they even have opposable thumbs.
*I have a character with an animal companion and zero ranks in Handle Animal. According to that blog post handle animal is still a necessity to control even an intelligent (INT 3) companion. The general interpretation prior to this blog was that intelligent animals didn't need Handle Animal checks to control them. Now I suspect that will change. This character will need to reallocate his skill points to support this change.
Too bad the current update rules don't support making a change in this case, hopefully that'll be fixed once the rules change goes through.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Apes or any other animal companions can not wield weapons. That's cool in people's home games, but is something that Hyrum and I, as GMs of the entire PFS campaign, aren't willing to allow. Animals have natural weapons; if you want them to be better with these or do more damage, give them Improved Natural Attack or Weapon Focus.
As for Handle Animal, nothing in the skill's description says you don't need to make checks for intelligent animals. A ranger or druid must still make Handle Animal checks no matter how many points of Intelligence her animal companion advances over time.
In the end, the GM should feel free to restrict such choices if he feels that they take away from the feel of his campaign. The rules themselves are left a little vague to give the GM the latitude to make the call that's right for his campaign.
This is takeaway number 1 from this blog post. While the FAQ may provide extra insight into the intent and interpretation of the rules, but for the purposes of this campaign, it doesn't actually errata any rules, just provide extra options for GMs. As Campaign Coordinator and Developer for the Pathfinder Society campaign, Hyrum and I have chosen not to use these additional options.
|
Apes or any other animal companions can not wield weapons. That's cool in people's home games, but is something that Hyrum and I, as GMs of the entire PFS campaign, aren't willing to allow. Animals have natural weapons; if you want them to be better with these or do more damage, give them Improved Natural Attack or Weapon Focus.
Wow, Ok that is going to screw a lot of Druids with Ape Animal Companion, As a DM I always thought this was cheese having a Ape with a weapon, but a lot of PFS players do it, including one of my own.
He is not going to be happy about this.
|
|
Alright, so we've just thrown all the pole-arm wielding apes under the bus. I'm fine with that as a campaign decision.
I'm still confused about this next part though:
As for Handle Animal, nothing in the skill's description says you don't need to make checks for intelligent animals. A ranger or druid must still make Handle Animal checks no matter how many points of Intelligence her animal companion advances over time.
Animal Trait:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).Handle Animal is usable on:
Animals & a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5.
The only old guidance on this issue I could find was the 3.5 FAQ
warhorse (such as a hippogriff or unicorn) need to train the
creature for combat with the Handle Animal skill, or is the
special mount automatically considered combat trained?
According to page 75 in the PH, you can’t use Handle
Animal on a creature with an Int higher than 2, so it’s
impossible for the paladin to use this skill to train her special
mount (since they typically have an Int of 6 or higher). Instead,
such creatures are intelligent enough to follow your commands
by normal communication. You don’t have to train a creature
of this Intelligence for combat; you can simply ask it to do
what’s needed.
Considering the wording for Handle Animal is the same in 3.5 as it is in PFS is there some reason we've decided to ignore that FAQ and decide that animals that get smarter still require handle animal?
|
|
Since Moreland tells us for PFS the article doesn't exist. Why exactly can't (Int3) apes be trained to wield weapons? They have hands, they even have opposable thumbs.
Apes or any other animal companions can not wield weapons. That's cool in people's home games, but is something that Hyrum and I, as GMs of the entire PFS campaign, aren't willing to allow. Animals have natural weapons; if you want them to be better with these or do more damage, give them Improved Natural Attack or Weapon Focus.
That's why.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As for Handle Animal, nothing in the skill's description says you don't need to make checks for intelligent animals. A ranger or druid must still make Handle Animal checks no matter how many points of Intelligence her animal companion advances over time.
Animal Trait:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).Handle Animal is usable on:
Animals & a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5.
If an animal starts with an Int of 3 or higher, it's not an animal; it must be a magical beast or other creature type (as is the case with a 1st level wizard's familiar). If an animal advances to higher than 2 on its own, it doesn't change creature types. It's still an animal unless another effect changes its type (like being turned into a zombie or changing to a magical beast as a paladin's mount does at 11th level). So a semi-intelligent animal companion is still an animal, and thus falls within the set of creatures upon which Handle Animal is needed.
|
|
If an animal starts with an Int of 3 or higher, it's not an animal; it must be a magical beast or other creature type (as is the case with a 1st level wizard's familiar). If an animal advances to higher than 2 on its own, it doesn't change creature types. It's still an animal unless another effect changes its type (like being turned into a zombie or changing to a magical beast as a paladin's mount does at 11th level). So a semi-intelligent animal companion is still an animal, and thus falls within the set of creatures upon which Handle Animal is needed.
As for Handle Animal, nothing in the skill's description says you don't need to make checks for intelligent animals. A ranger or druid must still make Handle Animal checks no matter how many points of Intelligence her animal companion advances over time.
Animal Trait:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal).Handle Animal is usable on:
Animals & a creature with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2 that is not an animal, but the DC of any such check increases by 5.
So paladin mounts prior to level 11 require handle animal to control?
That's pretty rough. I don't know any paladins that actually trained Handle Animal. I'm going to assume this qualifies for the 'things got changed out from underneath you' rule and thus allow paladins to get the skill they need to control their class feature.
|
|
Mark,
With this clarification, can we please change the "learn one trick per scenario" rule? If a Druid's AC dies, they screwed. That is why I've seen a lot of druid's put 1 point into Intelligence.
FWIW, I'm all in favor of animals being treated as animals and not mini-PC's. Handle Animal is one of those often overlooked requirements of having an animal friend.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
We're not pulling rules out from under anyone. The rule hasn't changed, only been clarified in light of the recent attention the FAQ blog instigated. A paladin needs to make Ride checks when riding her mount and Handle Animal checks when not (until 11th level, when the mount changes type to magical beast). If you have a build that was optimized for a different interpretation of the rules, you may still make Handle Animal or Ride checks untrained, and have the opportunity to put skill ranks in either with your next level; this is not an occasion to warrant a rebuild.
|
|
I feel like I'm being really dense today, but I'm really having trouble wrapping my head around the situation.
This comment suprised me:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.
Compare that to the Animal Type:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)
These two statements would seem to contradict one another.
With the very specific example of animal companions and other similar animals gained as a class feature, the rules would seem to be pretty clear in saying NO animal can have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.
They do and this is an intentional change we are making. The rules leave no room for an animal to gain intelligence without somehow transforming into a magical beast, which comes with a whole host of changes. There has to be room here for corner cases and exceptions, which this absolute rule does not allow.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Bulmahn specifically says that allowing animals to gain int is a rules change.
Mark tells me that's not a legal rules source for PFS.
Mark then tells me the rule applies anyway.
Should I be making handle animal checks or not? Also if/when this change happens will players be permitted to update characters with pets and in what fashion? (Maybe it already has happened, I'm really confused)
|
|
Should I be making handle animal checks or not? Also if/when this change happens will players be permitted to update characters with pets and in what fashion? (Maybe it already has happened, I'm really confused)
What he is saying, is it is not a Rule Change, but a Rule clarification for those who where not doing it right.
Basically all along a Animal with an Int higher then 2 is still an Animal * That is the way I always ran it* and always needed Handle Animal, there was just a Mass Confusion by all the players assuming that an animal with an Int Higher then 3 was no longer an Animal so no longer needed Handle Animal..
I am still trying to figure out where the Mass Confusion came from since I never I have never seen anywhere that an Animal is no longer an Animal if it has an Higher then 2 Int, or where Handle Animal is not used with Animals with an Int higher then 2.
|
|
I am still trying to figure out where the Mass Confusion came from since I never I have never seen anywhere that an Animal is no longer an Animal if it has an Higher then 2 Int, or where Handle Animal is not used with Animals with an Int higher then 2.Link
Interesting enough, They never put that in the FAQ...
So is there an actual rule that supports that?
|
|
I am still trying to figure out where the Mass Confusion came from since I never I have never seen anywhere that an Animal is no longer an Animal if it has an Higher then 2 Int, or where Handle Animal is not used with Animals with an Int higher then 2.LinkInteresting enough, They never put that in the FAQ...
So is there an actual rule that supports that?
Beyond random forums posts from designers there isn't really rules to support any of this.
|
|
Beyond random forums posts from designers there isn't really rules to support any of this.I am still trying to figure out where the Mass Confusion came from since I never I have never seen anywhere that an Animal is no longer an Animal if it has an Higher then 2 Int, or where Handle Animal is not used with Animals with an Int higher then 2.LinkInteresting enough, They never put that in the FAQ...
So is there an actual rule that supports that?
Some rules rules scream to do a Forum search for Rule clarifications, This one never did scream that to me, so never looked.
|
Apes or any other animal companions can not wield weapons. That's cool in people's home games, but is something that Hyrum and I, as GMs of the entire PFS campaign, aren't willing to allow. Animals have natural weapons; if you want them to be better with these or do more damage, give them Improved Natural Attack or Weapon Focus.
You seem to indicate on this thread that this has always been the case. Yet if you check the OP guide p20
"Can I improve my compaion's Intelligence to 3, or higher and give it weapon feats?"
"Yes. Following the guidelines for animal companions as established on page 53 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, this is legal. Your companion must be physically capable of wielding the weapon (no tigers with longwords, for example)."
This would seem to indicate that the only requirement for an AC to wield weapons is hands/paws, presumably with thumbs. Add a point to their Intelligence gives the added benefit of combat feats.
Now I am in favor of the restriction, but it does not seem to be supported by PFS rules until it was stated so in this thread. If we simply remove the second sentence regarding the weapons, this rule is fine. It would provide access to weapon feats, but not access to weapons themselves.
Creatures with the "animal" type normally cannot have an INT higher than 2. When a case comes up that they do, they're still animals and you need to make Handle Animal checks to get them to perform tricks.
Like was said above, this isn't a rule change, it's a clarification.
Hyrum.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
For further clarification:
Since this was specifically called out in the Guide to PFS, if someone has purchased equipment for their halberd-wielding ape animal companion to use, it may be sold at full price and the animal companion may retrain any weapon or armor proficiency feats. This is the only rebuilding allowed based on this alterations of the campaign specific rules, which are being made to bring the campaign rules closer in line with the Core Rulebook, errata, and FAQs. You may not retrain your PC's skills or feat allotment.
|
|
"Can I improve my compaion's Intelligence to 3, or higher and give it weapon feats?"
"Yes. Following the guidelines for animal companions as established on page 53 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, this is legal. Your companion must be physically capable of wielding the weapon (no tigers with longwords, for example)."
TwilightKnight, Nice catch by the way, Now I know where all the cheese came from..;)
I am assuming this will allow Druids to Retro there Companions?
Edit: Thanks Mark
|
|
For further clarification:
Since this was specifically called out in the Guide to PFS, if someone has purchased equipment for their halberd-wielding ape animal companion to use, it may be sold at full price and the animal companion may retrain any weapon or armor proficiency feats. This is the only rebuilding allowed based on this alterations of the campaign specific rules, which are being made to bring the campaign rules closer in line with the Core Rulebook, errata, and FAQs. You may not retrain your PC's skills or feat allotment.
Woah...Wait... You Took a step too far there Mark.. Animal Companions Still should/need be allowed to have Armor Proficiency to be able to wear Barding...
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
"Can I improve my compaion's Intelligence to 3, or higher and give it weapon feats?"
"Yes. Following the guidelines for animal companions as established on page 53 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, this is legal. Your companion must be physically capable of wielding the weapon (no tigers with longwords, for example)."TwilightKnight, Nice catch by the way, Now I know where all the cheese came from..;)
I am assuming this will allow Druids to Retro there Companions?
Yes. See above.
We're just defining the "any feat they are physically capable of taking" as not wearing armor or using manufactured weapons.
|
|
I still don't understand.
This comment suprised me:
Note that while the monster guidelines talk about a maximum Int for an animal, this only applies to the creation process. Animals can grow to have an Int higher than 2 through a variety of means, but they should not, as a general rule, be created that way.
Compare that to the Animal Type:
Intelligence score of 1 or 2 (no creature with an Intelligence score of 3 or higher can be an animal)
These two statements would seem to contradict one another.
With the very specific example of animal companions and other similar animals gained as a class feature, the rules would seem to be pretty clear in saying NO animal can have an Intelligence score of 3 or higher.
They do and this is an intentional change we are making. The rules leave no room for an animal to gain intelligence without somehow transforming into a magical beast, which comes with a whole host of changes. There has to be room here for corner cases and exceptions, which this absolute rule does not allow.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here is the core of what i don't get:
Jason Bulmahn says that "this is an intentional change we are making"
Mark Moreland says this is not a rules change just a clarification.
I think that conflict is leading to all my confusion. Am I reading one of those 2 statements incorrectly?
|
|
"Can I improve my compaion's Intelligence to 3, or higher and give it weapon feats?"
"Yes. Following the guidelines for animal companions as established on page 53 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, this is legal. Your companion must be physically capable of wielding the weapon (no tigers with longwords, for example)."TwilightKnight, Nice catch by the way, Now I know where all the cheese came from..;)
I am assuming this will allow Druids to Retro there Companions?
Yes. See above.
We're just defining the "any feat they are physically capable of taking" as not wearing armor or using manufactured weapons.
Armor? Look at my post above... Barding needs Armor Proficiency..
Edit: I am having a weird Déjà vu
|
*I am decidedly anti-apes with weapons.
But they...!
You did it. You cut up his brain, you bloody baboon!
You did that to him, damn you! You cut out his memory! You took his identity! And that's what you want to do to me!
Take your stinking glaive-guisarme-ranseur mancatcher combi-weapons off me, you damned dirty ape!
|
Creative Director
|
Druids have animals as companions. Animals, even the ones who modern science would say use tools, are NOT capable of fighting with weapons or acting like intelligent companions.
The summoner was SPECIFICALLY built to address the desire for some folks to have a "pet" that can use weapons and magic items and was smart enough to talk to and engage in complex tactics.
The druid doesn't really get that option; instead, he gets better spells and more of them.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
It is a hot thread. So hot, in fact, that it's really lit a fire under me to see the FAQ system fully implemented for PFS. I'll be moving that up much higher on the todo list than it was previously, even if it means some other priorities need to slide a little bit.
Players have consistently asked that we not "hide" rulings and clarifications on the boards, as "not everyone reads them." And I agree. But then we have threads like this that also demand clarifications. It's quite a Catch 22 for us.
But when we get all the cogs correctly aligned to handle a PFS-specific FAQ queue (meaning separate from the one for the rulebooks themselves), players will be able to flag FAQ topics and we'll make a single, official ruling somewhere that all PFS players will be able to easily find and where they will all be expected to visit periodically.
This also has the added benefit of allowing us to remove the FAQ content from the Guide and cut down on the unwieldy document size for what should be an non-intimidating guide for new players.
Anyway, sorry that this thread has caused confusion for any players or GMs, but it has certainly been motivating for me to rearrange some things here behind the campaign GM screen.
|
[praying] "The heavens declare the glory of the Bomb, and the firmament showeth His handiwork."
"I reveal my Inmost Self unto my God."
Congregation: [singing] Unto my God!
"Glory be to the Bomb, and to the Holy Fallout. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be. World without end. Amen."
"May the Blessings of the Bomb Almighty, and the Fellowship of the Holy Fallout, descend upon us all. This day and forever more."
Congregation: [singing] Amen!