Picked up the first Carrion Crown pdf yesterday, and was startled to see that it had no pregenerated set of characters. (I was really hoping that it'd feature an iconic version of one of the APG classes.) Is this the wave of the future?
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Picked up the first Carrion Crown pdf yesterday, and was startled to see that it had no pregenerated set of characters. (I was really hoping that it'd feature an iconic version of one of the APG classes.) Is this the wave of the future?
Yup. Pazo (James, specifically IIRC) asked a while back and the "pregenerated characters are a waste of space" crowd was loudest. Until something changes, you won't see pregens in the AP.
-Skeld
Creative Director
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Not to mention the "pregens are a proof that Paizo fails at design" crowd.
That crowd has plenty of ammo and examples at their beck and call. Removing the pregenerated characters really had nothing to do with them—it was all about "This element of the product has more or less outlived its usefulness, and the bulk of the feedback from our customers confirms that, so let's cut them and use those two pages to augment the articles and adventures."
Now, I won't lie—the crowd that gets its kicks off of telling us how we "suxxor at design" by pointing out that our pregenerated characters aren't perfectly numbercrunched kind of annoy me. But more because I'm annoyed by the implication that there's only one RIGHT way to build a fighter. Cause there's not.
In any event, yeah; the pregenerated character pages are gone. If folks miss them, let us know! If there's a big enough call for them to return, they will.
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Picked up the first Carrion Crown pdf yesterday, and was startled to see that it had no pregenerated set of characters. (I was really hoping that it'd feature an iconic version of one of the APG classes.) Is this the wave of the future?Yup. Pazo (James, specifically IIRC) asked a while back and the "pregenerated characters are a waste of space" crowd was loudest. Until something changes, you won't see pregens in the AP.
-Skeld
NNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
Well, if it gives you more space for adventures and articles, Mr. Jacobs, then I guess it's a worthwhile sacrifice. But I would certainly purchase a product that had the various Iconics at various levels, possibly including sidebars where the designer explain their design choices.
And bite your tongue on getting rid of the fiction, Gorbacz! Realizing that we're actually going to be seeing Allison Kindler in action was one of the highlights of my day, yesterday.
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Well, if it gives you more space for adventures and articles, Mr. Jacobs, then I guess it's a worthwhile sacrifice. But I would certainly purchase a product that had the various Iconics at various levels, possibly including sidebars where the designer explain their design choices.
And bite your tongue on getting rid of the fiction, Gorbacz! Realizing that we're actually going to be seeing Allison Kindler in action was one of the highlights of my day, yesterday.
Kinda hard to bite the tongue, bags of devouring don't have one...
Still... I am greatly opposed as to spending my gaming buck on anything that doesn't give me a bang. Fiction doesn't. I enjoy PF fiction greatly and I would to see more online or in PF Tales. But I don't want it cluttering the space that could be used for more things directly relevant to the AP issue.
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Creative Director
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The Pathfinder Journal fiction is too popular with our customers and with employees at Paizo to be going away anytime soon.
A lot of folks DO get bangs out of their bucks with the fiction, in other words. Sorry if it doesn't do the trick for some of you, but the APs are for everyone, not just one.
(...) a product that had the various Iconics at various levels, possibly including sidebars where the designer explain their design choices.(...)
Or maybe the various existing versions (from the other APs) could be PRD-ed (???)...
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I'm definitely with the 'there are better uses of page space than pregens' crowd - particularly with things like the religion rundowns that appear in the AP's now and again. I'm glad that Paizo has the iconics to provide a face to each class, but I don't really need to know how they work mechanically. Mo' fluff is mo' better.
So quick question, what are the two pages being used for? More adventure? Or an extra monster would be great! Just wondering, my issue hasn't come in yet?
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I could Imagine a fan-made-document or a small download-only PDF for a few dollars that contains nothing but the statblocks at various levels for the iconic NPCs (all of them, including the APG and Ultimate ones), along with character bios and little in-character snippets. Then everyone would have access to the Iconics at every level. New players would have a ready-made character to pick up, or have an example of "this is how to make a character," and GMs would have an assortment of NPC statblocks for any level, sort of like the various NPCs in the gamemastery guide. No new art necessary, either.
I know that people are always clamoring about how much they love the iconics, and some people at paizo are probably sick of it. Maybe these people would then finnaly shut the hell up.
So quick question, what are the two pages being used for? More adventure? Or an extra monster would be great! Just wondering, my issue hasn't come in yet?
It'll vary from month to month, wherever we need it. Sometimes the adventure runs long, sometimes an article, sometimes the Bestiary. In any case, unless someone's been keeping monthly averages, I don't think it'll ever be super obvious. There are a lot of monsters in #43... and the campaign outline... and an 8 page Ravengro article, so in this one the "extra" two pages went into that mix somewhere.
+1 for seeing (in one place/document) the collected iconics at various levels.
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Still... I am greatly opposed as to spending my gaming buck on anything that doesn't give me a bang. Fiction doesn't. I enjoy PF fiction greatly and I would to see more online or in PF Tales. But I don't want it cluttering the space that could be used for more things directly relevant to the AP issue.
It was a rare piece of fiction that actually caught my eye in Dragon, and things haven't changed with the shift over to Pathfinder. I'd barely notice if it went away, in all honesty.
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Even though I will be playing Carrion Crown instead of GMing, I am still an AP subscriber. The Fiction is something that I really enjoy reading, along with the bestiary and deity articles.
I'll surely read the adventures in the future, but I'm still not yet started the second Legacy of Fire adventure so it'll be a long time coming.
The Pathfinder Journal fiction is too popular with our customers and with employees at Paizo to be going away anytime soon.
A lot of folks DO get bangs out of their bucks with the fiction, in other words. Sorry if it doesn't do the trick for some of you, but the APs are for everyone, not just one.
James,
That is good to hear. The Pathfinder's Journal fiction is the first article I read, after the Forward.
With regards to the two pages of iconics / pregen characters, I am neutral on their inclusion. I can see how some people benefit from them, and others could care less. Since I have all of the APs so far, I can also use pregens from past issues if I need them (I understand this isn't helpful for those without a large back catalog of APs).
Maybe some time in the future, iconic pregen characters could make an appearance in one of the blogs (although I seem to recall seeing some iconic stat blocks in some product preview articles) or a a free / low cost PDF?
Anyway, I again state my desire to see the Pathfinder Journal fiction remain in the APs. I have subscribed to the APs since issue 1, and have enjoyed all of the fiction. Yeah, we now have novels, but good short fiction is also nice to have as well.
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I miss the pre-gens. I don't know that I would want them back in the APs though. What I'd really like to see is a pre-gen PDF supplement released with each volume that way the folks that don't care for them don't even need to acknowledge their existence and those who do can get what they like as well.
I miss the pre-gens. I don't know that I would want them back in the APs though. What I'd really like to see is a pre-gen PDF supplement released with each volume that way the folks that don't care for them don't even need to acknowledge their existence and those who do can get what they like as well.
Or just a proper book on the iconics, which might have the added advantage of being a good seller.
Still... I am greatly opposed as to spending my gaming buck on anything that doesn't give me a bang. Fiction doesn't. I enjoy PF fiction greatly and I would to see more online or in PF Tales. But I don't want it cluttering the space that could be used for more things directly relevant to the AP issue.
I personally enjoy the fiction. As a GM I find it gives me an in-depth view into the world I run, a more personalized look at the cities my players may journey to, and the organizations and cultures they may interact with.
Also, being that my game group includes two GM's (myself and GuardianKnight) that trade off adventure paths, I often find myself reading thru the fiction as a player. The stories are often tied to the content of the Adventure Path and allow me to make a more detail character that fits the setting.
Why not add them in the players guide PDF. That way if people want them they are there. I won't miss them in my copy of the AP.
Wow that sucks monkey you-know-whats. I enjoyed seeing the pregens.
More than two extra pages of adventure content?
I don't hate the pregens, not at all... but am I using them? Nope.
And if I wanted to use them, well, I have at least one version of each iconic in my back issues.
I'm a tad miffed at seeing no pre-gen iconics in this adventure.
For one thing, it means no stats on Feiya yet! >:-/
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
I'd definitely be interested in a product that showed the iconics from 1-20 (possibly only every 4 levels for space considerations). However, I'd also want new iconics for each of the Prestige classes.
I'd likely file off serial numbers and drop the various characters into a game when I'm not wanting to take the time to build them from scratch (which is what I do now with various NPC sources).
Guess I would fall into the no iconics / no fiction crowd. (I even am ambivalent to monsters that don't appear in the AP itself). But As James reminds us... it's not a product just for me.
Sean Mahoney
I liked the pre-gen character also. I will miss them. I do have issue with the crowd that thinks if I have negative stat then I can not play the character. I like them cause they had flaws and were not Drizzt I can kill anything in my path. I like flaws and background are what make a character not that they have max out stats and took all the right feats to do the most damage.
I'll admit it *is* refreshing to see "official" characters who have stats like 8 (and even the occasional 6 due to racial penalties)!
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I'm a tad miffed at seeing no pre-gen iconics in this adventure.
For one thing, it means no stats on Feiya yet! >:-/
Cheers, JohnH / Wanda
Feiya has stats in the back of Master of the Fallen Fortress. Granted, she's built using the Playtest rules, but still, it's something, right?
I've said it before and I suspect I'll say it plenty again:
Low stats are flaws, and flaws ALWAYS make characters more interesting.
Superhuman characters are boring.
And how!
I've said it before and I suspect I'll say it plenty again:
Low stats are flaws, and flaws ALWAYS make characters more interesting.
Superhuman characters are boring.
It would be nice to see a PF of all iconic characteres. My personal experience had a player completly irrate that i was making them play one inconic characters. I was doing so I could teach the game to new player. My favorite iconic is the dwarf ranger which at moment his name escapes me.
Do get me wrong I love a good game of Superhero roleplaying.
But, even there, it is the limitations that the Superhero must overcome that make the story more interresting.
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But i would be fine with a Iconic handbook also, as long as it have their lvl progression planning with examples, lets say from 5 to 5 lvls, and their backstory. Backstorys would be great, that iconic thread on the site is a royal pain to read. Maybe you guys could throw in some fiction also, some shortstorys featuring each one of them. I would definitely buy a book like that.
I'm in the "less BS, more adventure/monsters/support articles" crowd, but I'm sure as hell happy that the minmaxers don't get another bone to chew on.
On the tangent - when will the fiction go away from the APs? Puhleeeze? :)
That's a fight we'll never win, Gorbacz, believe me. I feebly waved my sword in that direction a while back, and got dogpiled by Paizo staffers. :D
(I'm not entirely convinced that the fiction is all that popular with customers outside of a few... overactive... messageboard posters, but that's the way things go. It's simply weird to find fiction in an Adventure Path book, and I'll leave it at that.)
But at least the pre-gens are gone (and they get flexibility to add to sections that they think are needed - double win), so thank goodness for that.
It would be nice to see a PF of all iconic characteres.
That is an excellent idea. I've started a thread on the topic here.
The Pathfinder Journal fiction is too popular with our customers and with employees at Paizo to be going away anytime soon.
A lot of folks DO get bangs out of their bucks with the fiction, in other words. Sorry if it doesn't do the trick for some of you, but the APs are for everyone, not just one.
Personally, I love the fiction and I'd hate to see it leave. In the few adventures that I found to be less excviting, I still have the fiction to look forward to.
And I would love to at least see a PDF of the new Iconics statted up at different levels. One of the advantages of the pregens was to be able to see a 10th level sorceress and say "oh, that's an interesting combination of spells" or when your players go completely off plot and you need a quick 4th level group of characters you can just pull them from the pre gens (yes, I know we have the Rivals Guide and the GM Guide too).
When I ran Into the Haunted Forest, we ended up with 7 characters for the end fight. As I was running this as a 3 week demo with players dropping in and out to learn the rules, in the final week I had to add a few NPCs to the end BOss fight. So I grabbed two of the pregens (I think Amiri and Seoni) and changed their names and race and had the extra baddies I needed in less than two minutes...
So, can we get a set of 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th level pregens somewhere.
I promise not to bash you for character design...
i like the pre-gen characters as it takes me back to my 1st edition days, however i understand why it was done and i'm cool with it as paizo seems to use the space wisely.
my suggestion would be to include pre-gen characters in the player's guide. its already only available as pdf so book costs wont go up, just an idea.
i also like the fiction
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Creative Director
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The player's guides are meant to be guides for creating characters for an Adventure Path, though... not a place to go to get pre-made characters. Pre-generated characters would be out of place in a player's guide, and they'd promote the wrong idea as well.
We've been putting some of the iconics stat blocks online, as far as I know, to support PFS org play. But a full book filled with them is very unlikely—they drew just too much criticism over the years when they were in the APs, and so I'm a bit wary about reprinting them in print anytime soon.
The player's guides are meant to be guides for creating characters for an Adventure Path, though... not a place to go to get pre-made characters. Pre-generated characters would be out of place in a player's guide, and they'd promote the wrong idea as well.
We've been putting some of the iconics stat blocks online, as far as I know, to support PFS org play. But a full book filled with them is very unlikely—they drew just too much criticism over the years when they were in the APs, and so I'm a bit wary about reprinting them in print anytime soon.
That's why I'd love to see them as some sort of PDF...just take what you've already done and collect it in one place...then add the new characters and there's your guide...
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I kind of miss the pregens and kind of dont.
Its neat to have them, but while they were good as iconics, they weren't that great as pregens. I can quickly crunch a character, as can all of you. What you really need are fun, cool, interesting CHARACTERS. And by characters, I dont mean stat blocks. I mean as in characters from a novel or story.
THAT is where the Paizo pregens from the APs really were lacking in my view. Great iconics, not so great as full characters.
Plus, they were 15 point builds when nearly all Pathfinder players I know use the Pathfinder Society 20 point build.
Hey I just had a funny idea.
Maybe an amazing group of authors, maybe even the very authors who wrote the adventure paths themselves, could do a download of say 8 to 10 awesome pregens tailored specifically to a particular adventure path. Not just simple stat shells without backstory or history, but actual fully fleshed out characters that are interesting and fun and cool and full of the special sauce that the best Paizo freelancers have. Built with specific tie ins, advancement notes, full backgrounds, roleplaying ideas, notes on how to do the PC using a 15 point build for those who prefer that, flexible and cool enough to be either PCs (for use by players), NPC or rival adventurers (if used by GMs).
Wouldn't that be cool?
:)