Creative Director
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I didn't want a happy little village, I wanted more creepy and scary stuff in the village. So, the opposite of Shadowdale, I guess? Shadowdale After Dark? Deeperdarknessdale? Twilightdale?
I guess you're just looking for a completely different adventure... like the upcoming "Feast of Ravenmoor," which is ALL ABOUT a creepy village. Since we knew "Ravenmoor" was coming soon, we didn't want to duplicate our own efforts in Carrion Crown, and so Ravengro wasn't presented as a creepy place but a pretty normal town that just happens to have a spooky haunted prison on the hill. So if you're looking for the creepy village adventure, wait till this September for "Feast of Ravenmoor."
Another reason we didn't make Ravenmoor the focus of the adventure is that it's not SUPPOSED to be the focus of the Adventure Path itself. In the case of Rise of the Runelords, Sandpoint plays a key role in several adventures. Same goes for Korvosa in Curse of the Crimson Throne. So we did make those settlements more detailed and rich with adventure and the like, because we WANTED the PCs to become immersed in those settlements, to get used to them, because they were going to be going back there a lot.
This is NOT the case in Carrion Crown. The PCs come to Ravengro for the first adventure, but then they leave at the end and never come back. That's why we set up the Player's Guide to steer folks away from being locals, and why we didn't try to put anything into Ravengro that might compel PCs or parties to stay. We did that before in an AP where the PCs were expected to leave and never come back. We've done it twice, in fact. First with Sasserine in the Savage Tide AP, and then more recently with Riddleport in the Second Darkness AP. In both cases, players really hated the fact that they didn't get to stay in the cool starting town.
Ravengro is supposed to be a nice little village that happens to have a compelling adventure site set next door. It is NOT supposed to be the adventure site itself (despite the fact that several encounters take place in the village... those encounters are mostly "bleed over" from the primary adventure site).
What is interesting or scary to one group won't work for another. That is why I think the DM is left to fill in the blanks. Speaking personally I always worry more about new monsters than ones I have seen before as a player.
Completely true -- horror is individualistic, as I mentioned above. That's why horror roleplaying is an incredibly difficult challenge to pull off, IME. Even assuming the GM knows what's going to scare his players (not necessarily a valid assumption), it's very difficult to bring that to a RPG situation where you know the enemy critter has a statblock and you can kill it if you just manage to inflict enough HP damage. It truly is a daunting task to pull off horror even at one table, much less write a module that will be scary for thousands of tables.
I'm assuming you'd agree, though, that new monsters /= horror. :-)
I am not saying new monsters equals horror, but the unknown does equal horror, and you have no idea of what the new monsters can do. At least with an old monster you know what to expect.
I guess you're just looking for a completely different adventure... like the upcoming "Feast of Ravenmoor," which is ALL ABOUT a creepy village. Since we knew "Ravenmoor" was coming soon, we didn't want to duplicate our own efforts in Carrion Crown, and so Ravengro wasn't presented as a creepy place but a pretty normal town that just happens to have a spooky haunted prison on the hill. So if you're looking for the creepy village adventure, wait till this September for "Feast of Ravenmoor."
Another reason we didn't make Ravenmoor the focus of the adventure is that it's not SUPPOSED to be the focus of the Adventure Path itself. In the case of Rise of the Runelords, Sandpoint plays a key role in several adventures. Same goes for Korvosa in Curse of the Crimson Throne. So we did make those settlements more detailed and rich with adventure and the like, because we WANTED the PCs to become immersed in those settlements, to get used to them, because they were going to be going back there a lot.
This is NOT the case in Carrion Crown. The PCs come to Ravengro for the first adventure, but then they leave at the end and never come back. That's why we set up the Player's Guide to steer folks away from being locals, and why we didn't try to put anything into Ravengro that might compel PCs or parties to stay. We did that before in an AP where the PCs were expected to leave and never come back. We've done it twice, in fact. First with Sasserine in the Savage Tide AP, and then more recently with Riddleport in the Second Darkness AP. In both cases, players really hated the fact that they didn't get to stay in the cool starting town.
Ravengro is supposed to be a nice little village that happens to have a compelling adventure site set next door. It is NOT supposed to be the adventure site itself (despite the fact that several encounters take place in the village... those encounters are mostly "bleed over" from the primary adventure site).
So...Ravengro will grow more ravens and become Ravenmoor? :-D
Now I'm excited about Feast of Ravenmoor! I can't wait to check it out.
And seriously James, when you explain it like that, I completely understand why you did what you did, and you obviously made the right decision. In that light, this design makes perfect short- and long-term sense. Consider all previous objections withdrawn.
And after all, Harrowstone IS a kick-ass dungeon!
I couldn't disagree more. The author even went so far as to suggest several subplots within Ravengro should the DM wish to flesh out the town more. It ultimately comes to down word count, and the expectation that a DM is going to fill in his own sideline stories as well.
As for the town "style", that is really a matter of interpretation. I think it should be played as suspicious, fearful, a bit spooky. I think it was intended to be portrayed as such and in any event that is how it came across for me.
The Shadowdale reference was an attempt to illustrate the incongruency of a happy little village and gothic horror. The sleepy village of suspicious outsiders and dark secrets is iconic within the genre.
Having played since 1E, I can't really think of many modules that put forth the effort that was put into Ravengro and to trying to strike the balance between railroad and sandbox. H1-H4, for example, was probably one of the more epic campaigns ever published and yet I've been given more detail about Ravengro already then that campaign gave to all of Vaasa.
At some point the DM has to imagine, create and storytell. No module can ever plan for every thought, possibility, and contingency. To even attempt such would be quixotic.
I didn't want a happy little village, I wanted more creepy and scary stuff in the village. So, the opposite of Shadowdale, I guess? Shadowdale After Dark? Deeperdarknessdale? Twilightdale?
Yes, I should be brutally and savagely beaten for that last one. :-D
If the town works for you, great. This really does seem to be a situation where the problem is more mine than the module's, and I'll freely cop to that. The module was designed to focus on one thing, and for some reason I had it in my head that it was going to focus on something else. Mismatched expectations, that's all -- and it succeeds brilliantly in doing what it actually set out to do, as opposed to what it didn't set out to do. I mean, seriously, it's a fantastic dungeon, one of...
On the point of adding more, I do agree with you, and I have added a lot of ambience, atmosphere, and side plots to flesh out Ravengro and add some elements of horror.
What I was trying to say was when crafting a module a designer has to stick to a baseline, if he/she goes too far in one direction or another he risks alienating those who feel the horror went "too far" or "not enough" so in the end it's all about striking a delicate balance and giving the GM enough latitude to modulate accordingly.
I was just about to offer sending you some of my side adventures, stories, scares to aid your campaign but now that I see you're playing it I better hold off! :D
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Creative Director
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I could not find the Marks for the lanterns either!! Where are they?Aside from trust points, I have a few small issues.
** spoiler omitted **
Overall, I liked this adventure a lot, but there could be improvements, and it seems to require a lot of GM work to fix some issues.
We accidentally left those marks out. A lesson we keep learning but so far haven't completely learned—do not call out specific tags on maps beyond the number tags! :)
Place the lanterns wherever they seem logical, in any case. You can adjust the locations depending on the PCs' locations in the hall if you want to make things easier or harder for them.
I didn't want a happy little village, I wanted more creepy and scary stuff in the village. So, the opposite of Shadowdale, I guess? Shadowdale After Dark? Deeperdarknessdale? Twilightdale?
I guess you're just looking for a completely different adventure... like the upcoming "Feast of Ravenmoor," which is ALL ABOUT a creepy village. Since we knew "Ravenmoor" was coming soon, we didn't want to duplicate our own efforts in Carrion Crown, and so Ravengro wasn't presented as a creepy place but a pretty normal town that just happens to have a spooky haunted prison on the hill. So if you're looking for the creepy village adventure, wait till this September for "Feast of Ravenmoor."
Another reason we didn't make Ravenmoor the focus of the adventure is that it's not SUPPOSED to be the focus of the Adventure Path itself. In the case of Rise of the Runelords, Sandpoint plays a key role in several adventures. Same goes for Korvosa in Curse of the Crimson Throne. So we did make those settlements more detailed and rich with adventure and the like, because we WANTED the PCs to become immersed in those settlements, to get used to them, because they were going to be going back there a lot.
This is NOT the case in Carrion Crown. The PCs come to Ravengro for the first adventure, but then they leave at the end and never come back. That's why we set up the Player's Guide to steer folks away from being locals, and why we didn't try to put anything into Ravengro that might compel PCs or parties to stay. We did that before in an AP where the PCs were expected to leave and never come back. We've done it twice, in fact. First with Sasserine in the Savage Tide AP, and then more recently with Riddleport in the Second Darkness AP. In both cases, players really hated the fact that they didn't get to stay in the cool starting town.
Ravengro is supposed to be a nice little village that happens to have a compelling adventure site set next door. It is NOT supposed to be the adventure site...
I for one would just like to thank you for supporting horror themed campaigns. This AP has brought my group back to tabletop after a nearly 10 year hiatus. Aside from fleshing out Ustalav with my own homegrown stuff, I can't wait to see what else you have in store for us.
I can't speak for everyone but I know for a fact you've brought 6 1e/2e old timers back to RPG's and gained 6 fervently loyal customers in the process.
On the point of adding more, I do agree with you, and I have added a lot of ambience, atmosphere, and side plots to flesh out Ravengro and add some elements of horror.
What I was trying to say was when crafting a module a designer has to stick to a baseline, if he/she goes too far in one direction or another he risks alienating those who feel the horror went "too far" or "not enough" so in the end it's all about striking a delicate balance and giving the GM enough latitude to modulate accordingly.
You make an excellent point. How much is too much? How much is not enough? It's a question the Paizonians confront every day, and generally speaking they do a masterful job of walking the line. So many of their products have been knock-me-on-my-ass awesome that they obviously have a pretty good handle on what they're doing!
I was just about to offer sending you some of my side adventures, stories, scares to aid your campaign but now that I see you're playing it I better hold off! :D
It's a bit up in the air yet. I'm running Kingmaker for my group, but that's incredibly work-intensive for me as a GM (my guess is I'm putting in 20 hours a week prep time on it, which is a heck of a lot now that I'm old and boring and have other things to do) and so we're going to be alternating books -- I'll do Kingmaker for one book and then someone else will do something else for a book (or equivalent). Right now, Carrion Crown is surging into favorite status for that "something else." So we'll see.
On the point of adding more, I do agree with you, and I have added a lot of ambience, atmosphere, and side plots to flesh out Ravengro and add some elements of horror.
What I was trying to say was when crafting a module a designer has to stick to a baseline, if he/she goes too far in one direction or another he risks alienating those who feel the horror went "too far" or "not enough" so in the end it's all about striking a delicate balance and giving the GM enough latitude to modulate accordingly.
You make an excellent point. How much is too much? How much is not enough? It's a question the Paizonians confront every day, and generally speaking they do a masterful job of walking the line. So many of their products have been knock-me-on-my-ass awesome that they obviously have a pretty good handle on what they're doing!
I was just about to offer sending you some of my side adventures, stories, scares to aid your campaign but now that I see you're playing it I better hold off! :DIt's a bit up in the air yet. I'm running Kingmaker for my group, but that's incredibly work-intensive for me as a GM (my guess is I'm putting in 20 hours a week prep time on it, which is a heck of a lot now that I'm old and boring and have other things to do) and so we're going to be alternating books -- I'll do Kingmaker for one book and then someone else will do something else for a book (or equivalent). Right now, Carrion Crown is surging into favorite status for that "something else." So we'll see.
If you're DM'ing Kingmaker you've earned at least a week or 2 at Club Med to recuperate. :P
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I didn't want a happy little village, I wanted more creepy and scary stuff in the village. So, the opposite of Shadowdale, I guess? Shadowdale After Dark? Deeperdarknessdale? Twilightdale?
Another reason we didn't make Ravenmoor the focus of the adventure is that it's not SUPPOSED to be the focus of the Adventure Path itself. In the case of Rise of the Runelords, Sandpoint plays a key role in several adventures. Same goes for Korvosa in Curse of the Crimson Throne. So we did make those settlements more detailed and rich with adventure and the like, because we WANTED the PCs to become immersed in those settlements, to get used to them, because they were going to be going back there a lot.
Sometimes we as readers forget that there's a finite amount of effort that can be put forth in RPG writing, and it needs to be saved for the stuff that will really matter.
I know exactly what you mean with Riddleport, btw.
Honestly, though, the people I play with are often so damn finicky and impatient they'll violently rebel against staying in ANY location for ANY length of time unless it's either ultra-entertaining or full of ale and whores. So I can't afford to set anything in a perfectly normal, peaceful town full of reserved, superstitious villagers unless truly horrible and hilarious things happen to them very quickly.
Sometimes, I think I need to find new players.
I guess you're just looking for a completely different adventure... like the upcoming "Feast of Ravenmoor," which is ALL ABOUT a creepy village. Since we knew "Ravenmoor" was coming soon, we didn't want to duplicate our own efforts in Carrion Crown, and so Ravengro wasn't presented as a creepy place but a pretty normal town that just happens to have a spooky haunted prison on the hill. So if you're looking for the creepy village adventure, wait till this September for "Feast of Ravenmoor."
I didn't want a happy little village, I wanted more creepy and scary stuff in the village. So, the opposite of Shadowdale, I guess? Shadowdale After Dark? Deeperdarknessdale? Twilightdale?
yessss so excited.
FWIW I, too, was expecting/hoping for Ravengro to be a little (well, okay, a lot) creepier in this one. As several people have already noted, horror is a really tough mood to nail because what frightens some people does nothing for others, and while Harrowstone is an awesome dungeon and will be a ton of fun to play through, it didn't really strike me as scary. Will it be a blast to run a party through? Absolutely. Will it scare that party? Probably not mine, although it might with some tweaking.
Creepy villages are usually pretty reliable for frightening my players, though, so I was all set to do a bunch of work on ramping up the horrors of Ravengro. Now it looks like that might not be the best approach after all... which is definitely good to know.
In any event, +1 for Harrowstone itself being a fantastic piece of work (and, with Vesorianna, very very Gothic).
OK, so the town is made of stern people, but it doesn't mean they are bad. Because I'm not sure it would be a good idea to creep up the town itself. You want the heroes to feel bad for the town if any catastrophy appears, otherwise, where's the motivation to save a creepy town?
You could add a few NPC with creepy secrets, but the vast majority of the town should be worth saving for good aligned PCs.
Joël
OK, so the town is made of stern people, but it doesn't mean they are bad. Because I'm not sure it would be a good idea to creep up the town itself. You want the heroes to feel bad for the town if any catastrophy appears, otherwise, where's the motivation to save a creepy town?
You could add a few NPC with creepy secrets, but the vast majority of the town should be worth saving for good aligned PCs.
Joël
It's not that the town isn't creepy, scary, or twisted enough, at least for me, it's that the town just isn't anything enough for me to see the PCs being interested in it. It is hard, as written, to get the PCs to feel like staying in the town more than the 30 seconds it takes to learn about Harrowstone and make a beeline for it as the NPCs and the Trust mechanic don't really work for making the town anything more than a place full of suspicious strangers with nothing really interesting.
As others have said, this is not necessarily a bad thing, in fact it seems to be the very purpose of the module, which is the very interesting and fun dungeon next to the town. This is just a case of me, and others, expecting something different from this adventure. Now that I know the whole point is that the PCs aren't supposed to be attached to the town, as they take off without ever returning during the next module, it makes complete sense that the town itself isn't really focused on.
Since it would be really annoying to have the PCs grow attached to the town and the NPCs only to never step foot there again the town isn't meant to grip the PCs interest. Also, the PCs shouldn't feel that they are investing a lot of time in effort into a place only to never have any of that come up throughout the rest of the AP, so I understand, and agree with, the reasoning behind not focusing much attention at all on the town.
You could add a few NPC with creepy secrets, but the vast majority of the town should be worth saving for good aligned PCs.
Joël
That's pretty much the approach I have taken tbh.
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Creative Director
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Trying to quickly develop the town as likable so the PCs will feel bad when bad things happen is...well, that tactic usually goes sour. I believe it's called "20 Minutes With Jerks."
Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.
I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
AKA: Not every opinion about entertainment matches. That's essentially what we're seeing here—some folks were hoping for one adventure, but got another. Which is unfortunate, and probably our fault for not being clearer on the buildup to the adventure and managing expectations better, but that's always a tricky thing for adventures anyway, since we have to watch about spoiling too much content.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)
/QUOTE]
I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
AKA: Not every opinion about entertainment matches. That's essentially what we're seeing here—some folks were hoping for one adventure, but got another. Which is unfortunate, and probably our fault for not being clearer on the buildup to the adventure and managing expectations better, but that's always a tricky thing for adventures anyway, since we have to watch about spoiling too much content.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)
I have to say, if Wake of the Watcher is as strongly inspired by
Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)
Blimmus!
Original Wicker Man, I hope and suspect:)
Rich
who's the author for this?
The Lottery (short story)
Shirley Jackson.
The essence of the story is that seemingly normal and "good" people may have darker traditions (in other renditions of this theme, those traditions are kept secret from outsiders, but in The Lottery it seems to be well-known and not at all hidden). I'm really interested in seeing what the AP does with the idea -- and back to thinking that my creepy-fication of Ravengro might be back on after all, since if that's where Ravenmoor is going, it may not be as redundant as I'd imagined.
Good thing I've got lots and lots of time to let the whole AP come out before making that call. But yeah, I'm super intrigued to see Feast of Ravenmoor!
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Creative Director
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Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)Blimmus!
Original Wicker Man, I hope and suspect:)
Rich
Ummm... of course! And I'm a bit scandalized that you could EVEN THINK I'm talking about that reprehensible ridiculous remake!
Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward ALL THE WAY.
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Creative Director
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The essence of the story is that seemingly normal and "good" people may have darker traditions (in other renditions of this theme, those traditions are kept secret from outsiders, but in The Lottery it seems to be well-known and not at all hidden). I'm really interested in seeing what the AP does with the idea -- and back to thinking that my creepy-fication of Ravengro might be back on after all, since if that's where Ravenmoor is going, it may not be as redundant as I'd imagined.
Good thing I've got lots and lots of time to let the whole AP come out before making that call. But yeah, I'm super intrigued to see Feast of Ravenmoor!
The AP actually won't be doing much at all with these themes—maybe a little here and there, but it's not a major theme for Carrion Crown. (Feast of Ravenmoor isn't part of Carrion Crown.)
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Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)Blimmus!
Original Wicker Man, I hope and suspect:)
Rich
Ummm... of course! And I'm a bit scandalized that you could EVEN THINK I'm talking about that reprehensible ridiculous remake!
Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward ALL THE WAY.
Lord Summerisle: "Animals are fine, but their acceptability is limited. A little child is even better, but not nearly as effective as the right kind of adult."
The AP actually won't be doing much at all with these themes—maybe a little here and there, but it's not a major theme for Carrion Crown. (Feast of Ravenmoor isn't part of Carrion Crown.)
Derp, that's what I get for being careless. Thank you for the correction.
Well, maybe I'll just make it part of my Carrion Crown. ;)
Honestly, though, the people I play with are often so damn finicky and impatient they'll violently rebel against staying in ANY location for ANY length of time unless it's either ultra-entertaining or full of ale and whores.
As a DM, I feel your pain.
As a player, why would you stay anywhere else?
EDIT: Re: Wicker Man: Um, Christopher Lee, Edward Woodward and Britt Ekland ALL THE WAY
I am not saying new monsters equals horror, but the unknown does equal horror, and you have no idea of what the new monsters can do. At least with an old monster you know what to expect.
I agree. I'm just finishing Souls for Smugglers Shiv:
I love new critters just because players sometimes really cherish surprises.
On the point of adding more, I do agree with you, and I have added a lot of ambience, atmosphere, and side plots to flesh out Ravengro and add some elements of horror.
What I was trying to say was when crafting a module a designer has to stick to a baseline, if he/she goes too far in one direction or another he risks alienating those who feel the horror went "too far" or "not enough" so in the end it's all about striking a delicate balance and giving the GM enough latitude to modulate accordingly.
I was just about to offer sending you some of my side adventures, stories, scares to aid your campaign but now that I see you're playing it I better hold off! :D
Jon,
If you don't mind, I would love to see what you've come up with. I'm going to be alternating a couple of chapters of Carrion Crown with a couple chapters of Serpents Skull.
(As a Maptooler, I need a break from making my own maps in SS)
I've been thinking of ways to expand the trust earning options and in general enrich the town a little bit. Though I quite understand that the intent is that the players do not stay there or become too invested.
A little extra spookiness would be most welcome too.
Could you send me your ideas instead? My e-mail address is in my profile. Much appreciated! Or if you want to just post them in a spoiler tag, that would be great too!
I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.Trying to quickly develop the town as likable so the PCs will feel bad when bad things happen is...well, that tactic usually goes sour. I believe it's called "20 Minutes With Jerks."
Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.
Such an under-appreciated film. As a brooklynite, I truly, truly loved it, almost as much as the recent War of the Worlds.
The AP actually won't be doing much at all with these themes—maybe a little here and there, but it's not a major theme for Carrion Crown. (Feast of Ravenmoor isn't part of Carrion Crown.)The essence of the story is that seemingly normal and "good" people may have darker traditions (in other renditions of this theme, those traditions are kept secret from outsiders, but in The Lottery it seems to be well-known and not at all hidden). I'm really interested in seeing what the AP does with the idea -- and back to thinking that my creepy-fication of Ravengro might be back on after all, since if that's where Ravenmoor is going, it may not be as redundant as I'd imagined.
Good thing I've got lots and lots of time to let the whole AP come out before making that call. But yeah, I'm super intrigued to see Feast of Ravenmoor!
That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?
Honestly, though, the people I play with are often so damn finicky and impatient they'll violently rebel against staying in ANY location for ANY length of time unless it's either ultra-entertaining or full of ale and whores.As a DM, I feel your pain.
As a player, why would you stay anywhere else?
EDIT: Re: Wicker Man: Um, Christopher Lee, Edward Woodward and Britt Ekland ALL THE WAY
Technical +1, I can see where such players are coming from, usually. Noone likes being kept in a location without a purpose.
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Creative Director
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That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?
I wouldn't do this at all, since I happen to quite like how Harrowstone turned out. Ravenmoor itself IS the adventure. Swapping it in for Ravengro would derail the Adventure Path, and not in a good way.
That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?I wouldn't do this at all, since I happen to quite like how Harrowstone turned out. Ravenmoor itself IS the adventure. Swapping it in for Ravengro would derail the Adventure Path, and not in a good way.
AH, I see. Fair enough.
Honestly, though, the people I play with are often so damn finicky and impatient they'll violently rebel against staying in ANY location for ANY length of time unless it's either ultra-entertaining or full of ale and whores.As a DM, I feel your pain.
As a player, why would you stay anywhere else?
EDIT: Re: Wicker Man: Um, Christopher Lee, Edward Woodward and Britt Ekland ALL THE WAY
That's odd for me to consider, my group is the type that once they get a feel for the storyline just run with it hook line and sinker. Maybe it's because we've been a static group off and on for almost 20 years and all of us have DM'd a time or two.
AH, I see. Fair enough.That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?I wouldn't do this at all, since I happen to quite like how Harrowstone turned out. Ravenmoor itself IS the adventure. Swapping it in for Ravengro would derail the Adventure Path, and not in a good way.
There is however no reason you couldn't integrate Ravenmoor and the Carrion Crown AP into a larger campaign. :D
Remember Cloverfield? Yeah, that.I do. Best movie of the year, and one of my favorite movies.
Anyway, as I've said above, folks eager to see a REALLY cool spooky village should get ready for "Feast of Ravenmoor." If you can't wait, here's a few books and movies to check out to get you ready for the type of adventure it's gonna be:
The Wicker Man (movie)
Children of the Corn (short story and movie)
The Lottery (short story)
The Dunwich Horror (short story)Blimmus!
Original Wicker Man, I hope and suspect:)
Rich
Ummm... of course! And I'm a bit scandalized that you could EVEN THINK I'm talking about that reprehensible ridiculous remake!
Christopher Lee and Edward Woodward ALL THE WAY.
Ha! Well said sir, well said!
I'm still not sure about all those songs though.
Pett
Jon Kines,
I wrote a post specifically to you just up a bit. I know these things get buried quickly, so I just wanted to make sure you saw it.
I'm still not sure about all those songs though.
Pett
Well, Mr. Pett, you either get the songs, or you get THIS!
I'm still not sure about all those songs though.
PettWell, Mr. Pett, you either get the songs, or you get THIS!
Hmm, the agony of choice - I'll take the bees:)
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Creative Director
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There is however no reason you couldn't integrate Ravenmoor and the Carrion Crown AP into a larger campaign. :DAH, I see. Fair enough.That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?I wouldn't do this at all, since I happen to quite like how Harrowstone turned out. Ravenmoor itself IS the adventure. Swapping it in for Ravengro would derail the Adventure Path, and not in a good way.
Actually... geography is a great reason not to do this. Ravenmoor is in Varisia, after all, which is pretty far away from Ustalav.
Of course, transplanting adventures is a time-honored trick. But it's worth keeping in mind that saying "no reason" isn't quite accurate... (/pedantic response unit)
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Alright, I finally got my copy and it's time to bother Brandon and James with some questions about haunts... again! ;)
Now, The Haunting of Harrowstone includes several persistent haunts, but I'm a bit baffled about the mechanics. Namely, if I've understood correctly, player characters cannot harm a haunt -- even with positive energy -- after the surprise round, correct? How about persistent haunts? There are some exceptions in this module, but unless I've gone as senile as Mairkurion, GMG doesn't mention anything other than they continue to trigger the effect until [permanently?] destroyed. If this is indeed so, it seems that the only option is to flee and wait 'til such a haunt triggers again... which is kind of frustrating for the players. And yet, 'Choking Hands', for example, mentions that it's harder to dismiss with additional temporary HPs it gets as it strangles, but by the time it triggers again (next day) those HPs will be gone. Weird.
On second thought it works pretty well for "normal" haunts; story elements aside, they're more or less sudden phenomena that manifest to scare the characters and apply their effect before vanishing. However, persistent haunts remain, and therefore I think they should be vulnerable to positive energy on subsequent rounds. I think I'll have to houserule it this way, or otherwise I will most likely get drawn into a serious discussion about fairness and game mechanics with my players...
(By the way, Brandon, your article on haunts was amazing... I already made notes how to incorporate roughly about half of them -- even low-CR ones -- into next sessions of my high-level campaign!)
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Some haunts break the general rules for haunt building. That's by design. Haunts really do need to have strong stories behind them, and the mechanics presented in the GMG are mere starting grounds for them. For MOST haunts, those rules suffice. But when you start getting really unusual haunts, such as a few that show up in Harrowstone, they start bending rules.
Persistent haunts are pretty potent. And if you have a group that has no way to hurt haunts... you should really consider NOT using haunts. That's why we put a few things into the adventure that can help PCs who lack the ability to damage haunts.
I actually addressed the persistent mechanic and improper assumptions about the "damage-only-in-surprise-rounds" sentence here.
That should just about cover it. The sentence regarding surprise rounds only is referring to the basic assumption and form of a haunt, which are *normally* single round phenomenon, rather than persistent haunts, which are exceptions to the single round rule (and thus +2 CR) and handled a bit differently. Unlike single-round haunts, persistent haunts can be damaged each round as long as they continue manifesting. The confusing rule sentence is only trying to clarify that you can't damage a non-manifesting haunt by just blasting the area where you last saw it after it is gone.
Once you get that part, you'll see that the choking hand haunt mechanic makes a lot more sense.
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Thanks once again, Brandon and James; indeed it all makes sense now! :)
And James, I'm cool with haunts bending the rules; I was just worried about the base rules being a bit unclear on how to harm certain types. Having said that, I love variant monsters, and I'm very pleased that many haunts seem to feature unique mechanics tied to story elements. And it also makes them scarier when the players don't know exactly how each haunt works. :)
There is however no reason you couldn't integrate Ravenmoor and the Carrion Crown AP into a larger campaign. :DAH, I see. Fair enough.That's unfortunate..I was really hoping it was going to be. Any way you could swap out Ravengro for Ravenmoor?I wouldn't do this at all, since I happen to quite like how Harrowstone turned out. Ravenmoor itself IS the adventure. Swapping it in for Ravengro would derail the Adventure Path, and not in a good way.Actually... geography is a great reason not to do this. Ravenmoor is in Varisia, after all, which is pretty far away from Ustalav.
Of course, transplanting adventures is a time-honored trick. But it's worth keeping in mind that saying "no reason" isn't quite accurate... (/pedantic response unit)
No reason may have been a bit strong but my rationale was that due to the fact that a large number of Varisians are nomadic, and that Ustalav is predominantly Varisian, I could see a situation where a tale or even a rumor regarding Ravenmoor conveniently makes its way into Ustalav. In this manner, it could potentially be run as a side adventure between Carrion Crown AP's.
While it would probably be optimal to run CC and Ravenmoor with different characters, I was presenting an option for doing so with the same party should that be preferential.
Just read my copy as well and noticed something in the artwork.
Should I read anything into the four Iconic party members depicted in the AP's art as descending into the slasher-movie inspired haunted prison being all female?
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Just read my copy as well and noticed something in the artwork.
Should I read anything into the four Iconic party members depicted in the AP's art as descending into the slasher-movie inspired haunted prison being all female?
I can't say I'd call Harrowstone "slasher movie" inspired. If I had to call it "anything inspired" I'd say it's Shirley Jackson inspired.
As for comments on the adventuring party tackling Carrion Crown, that's being discussed here.
Short summary: All the male iconics are wusses. :P
I haven't read this book yet (in our group the players buy the books for the DMs so I'm waiting for one of my players to purchase it for me). However based on what I've read, here's a couple of ideas I've come up with.
As both a player and a GM I dislike dungeon crawls to be honest. They can be tolerable if they're flavourful and interesting. But I need some good roleplaying sessions to help break it up as well.
So when I do read Haunting of Harrowstone I'll definitely be expanding the role of the town. Somoene in another thread suggested having the professor's daughter sell her father's home because she wants to move to <insert location of next plothook>. However the buyer is a month away and she needs to speak with them personally. This keeps the PCs in the town for at least a month.
To help expand the flavour and role of the town (which I've got only a basic understanding of) I've come up with two plotlines revolving around the town and it's interest in the prison.
He'll only use diplomacy and intimidate, and won't initiate combat. Instead he'll report it to the local inquisitor. This inquisitor will rile up a mob that's waiting for the PCs when they arrive. The PCs can try to talk their way out of being lynched. If they fail or about to initiate combat the mayor quickly steps in.
The mayor is certainly sympathetic to the PCs as he doesn't really like the inquisitor. But the law is the law and the inquisitor is quite influential. He can call for a town meeting in a week's time to decide the fate of the PCs and they'll be allowed to argue their case. Worst case scenario, they are banished from the region (and only if they go out of their way to anger the locals a friendly PC will free the players from the closet they're being guarded in as the mayor and inquisitor argue over whether the PCs should hang).
The PCs will have that week to try to persuade each councillor in the town council. This will delay the PCs for a week and encourage them to interact with the locals. However the PCs are always aware that after a month they'll be leaving Ravengro to stop them from growing too attached to the area.
If the PCs try to sneak into the prison anyway then the inquisitor will be waiting for them on their journey back. He'll have some friends and this time combat will break out. If the PCs kill any of them then they'll have a penalty to their trust score, but unless they take no efforts to hide what happened, no-one will be able to prove it was them.
Perhaps I'm dence, but I can't seem to find out how long ago the prison burned. I saw the year it burned, but I don't have a clue what the current year is, and was actually under the impression that was very up to the DM to decide...
I get that this is likely going to result in someone telling me there is no set "when it happened", but the way it's presented I'm unsure enough to go ahead and ask.
If it turns out that it's completely up in the air...what are people thinking? Five years? Ten? A generation?
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I haven't read this book yet (in our group the players buy the books for the DMs so I'm waiting for one of my players to purchase it for me). However based on what I've read, here's a couple of ideas I've come up with.
As both a player and a GM I dislike dungeon crawls to be honest. They can be tolerable if they're flavourful and interesting. But I need some good roleplaying sessions to help break it up as well.
So when I do read Haunting of Harrowstone I'll definitely be expanding the role of the town. Somoene in another thread suggested having the professor's daughter sell her father's home because she wants to move to <insert location of next plothook>. However the buyer is a month away and she needs to speak with them personally. This keeps the PCs in the town for at least a month.
To help expand the flavour and role of the town (which I've got only a basic understanding of) I've come up with two plotlines revolving around the town and it's interest in the prison.
** spoiler omitted **...
John, I don't think it's a good idea to make Harrowstone a taboo; at least not a strong one. Most players I know are analyzing your GMing and the adventure as they go along. My players would interpret a lynching mob as my final attempt to steer them away from going "astray", i.e. I haven't yet prepared that part of the adventure and I want them to back down. And it would smack of GM fiat so strongly that they'd probably feel a bit hurt; not to mention that it'd hurt the relationship between villagers and characters so badly that you would be better off by discarding the trust mechanic immediately. It feels even more weird if you think that there are all sorts of Harrowstone monsters assaulting the village -- why wouldn't the villagers want to get rid of them? Have a Whispering Way spy who spin all sorts of overstatements and lies about Harrowstone, but don't make it seem like you -- as GM -- don't want them to go there.
I think a unified lynch mob might be a little much, but a small group of towns folk who vocally protest the party going to Harrowstone ("Don't be goin' out and fidlin' with our history"..."you'll just be stirin' up more trouble if you go stumblin' around in there") Something akin to Gibs and his band of loosers in the Restlands. Possibly set things up so there is the village proper who are coming to trust the PCs, and then there is a small group of rable whipped up by Gibbs who don't like the newcomers.