|
It seems so to me at any rate.
With a minimum DC of 20, not able to take 10 (and taking 20 is a no go when activating as well) in addition to the potential for needing multiple checks.
For instance, if you were to attempt to use a magic item that was restricted to say LG Dwarf Paladins and you were a CN Gnome Bard you'd need to make 4 UMD checks of which if any one were to be below 20 you'd have to start all over again.
Even a 10th level Rogue that took skill mastery and had a UMD of 15 (full ranks plus good Cha) would not be able to reliably cast from 4th level scrolls, or any spell with a casting stat higher than he possessed.
It seems so to me at any rate.
With a minimum DC of 20, not able to take 10 (and taking 20 is a no go when activating as well) in addition to the potential for needing multiple checks.
For instance, if you were to attempt to use a magic item that was restricted to say LG Dwarf Paladins and you were a CN Gnome Bard you'd need to make 4 UMD checks of which if any one were to be below 20 you'd have to start all over again.
Even a 10th level Rogue that took skill mastery and had a UMD of 15 (full ranks plus good Cha) would not be able to reliably cast from 4th level scrolls, or any spell with a casting stat higher than he possessed.
I don't think UMD is intended to give you a 100% chance of doing anything with every magic item. I think it's intentionally unreliable.
If you put more resources into it (a feat or two; maybe a trait) it should work more often.
It seems so to me at any rate.
With a minimum DC of 20, not able to take 10 (and taking 20 is a no go when activating as well) in addition to the potential for needing multiple checks.
For instance, if you were to attempt to use a magic item that was restricted to say LG Dwarf Paladins and you were a CN Gnome Bard you'd need to make 4 UMD checks of which if any one were to be below 20 you'd have to start all over again.
Even a 10th level Rogue that took skill mastery and had a UMD of 15 (full ranks plus good Cha) would not be able to reliably cast from 4th level scrolls, or any spell with a casting stat higher than he possessed.
UMD is better than most of the other skills so it should be harder to rely one IMHO.
I have to agree with the above posters. Use Magic Device has such a high failure rate because it's effectively allowing you to use other class's stuff.
I think if the DCs were dropped and the ability to take 10 or 20 was allowed, the UMD skill would become hideously overpowering. You'd have every man and his dog taking it, Class-Skill or no, and dropping Skill Focus and Magical Aptitude for insane stacking of bonuses.
Yes it's a pain in the arse to make this skill work. Yes sometimes you're better off just using your own class abilities and/or player know-how (cue McGuyver theme music!). And Yes, sometimes this ability can lead to a moment of Epic Win for the Party.
For instance, if you were to attempt to use a magic item that was restricted to say LG Dwarf Paladins and you were a CN Gnome Bard you'd need to make 4 UMD checks of which if any one were to be below 20 you'd have to start all over again.
Why not just make one roll and compare it to the highest DC required? That's what I do in my games. Quick and easy. Of course, I don't see the point of making things overly difficult.
Why not just make one roll and compare it to the highest DC required? That's what I do in my games. Quick and easy. Of course, I don't see the point of making things overly difficult.
+1
Simple answer
It is tough, but so much fun when it works.
Last campaign, near the end of the final chapter, here is the line from the journal that the groups paladin kept:
"We come to a door that can only be opened by a fire elemental, once he hears that, Blueheart puts his hand on the door muttering that he is a fire elemental. Surprisingly, the door opens."
(Blueheart was a Rogue 17 at this time)
-- david
Papa.DRB
|
|
Why not just make one roll and compare it to the highest DC required? That's what I do in my games. Quick and easy. Of course, I don't see the point of making things overly difficult.
Because unless you're a venture captain houserules don't fly in PFS. Given that there wont be an opening for a year, and I already have a rival for the spot.
Nope. Its an insanely good skill when used properly, it should be hard.
|
|
Its an insanely good skill when used properly, it should be hard.
Care to share some insight into how this skill is so much better than any other skill that it's minimum DC is higher than the DC of many concentration checks?
When making your UMD check(s) all it does is allow you to activate the item as though you were someone else. This does not negate ASF, or the need to have the item in your possession, but does add the possibility of 'jamming' the item for a day. At best the user is a third class caster that's flushing his money (and arguably his life) away.
because it allows classes that cannot cast spells to merrily cast spells
|
|
Its an insanely good skill when used properly, it should be hard.Care to share some insight into how this skill is so much better than any other skill that it's minimum DC is higher than the DC of many concentration checks?
When making your UMD check(s) all it does is allow you to activate the item as though you were someone else. This does not negate ASF, or the need to have the item in your possession, but does add the possibility of 'jamming' the item for a day. At best the user is a third class caster that's flushing his money (and arguably his life) away.
A third class caster IN ADDITION TO ALL OF THE OTHER SKILLS OF THE CLASS WITH NONE OF THE PENALTIES.
Seriously, if it is trained and you don't have any negatives to charisma you can get to +7 as soon as you take skill focus.
Not everything should be easy for everyone.
Care to share some insight into how this skill is so much better than any other skill that it's minimum DC is higher than the DC of many concentration checks?
Care to share how that became your standard? Concentration is not a skill. Concentration lets a class do its own job (cast spells) Concentration does not let you do another classes job (cast spells)
Skills i consider useless (but may take them myself because of flavor)
appraise
climb- quickly overtaken by fly
cratf- making anything takes longer than you have.
disguise (1st level wizards do it better) -this is only really useful WITH magic.
Handle animal (just pump your critters int to 3 and be done with it)
Perform (unless you're a bard in which case its a different skill)
profession
slight of hand (how often do you not just take money off his corpse?)
swim: you can rely on your strength mod, quickly overtaken by fly and magic.
Skills with high DCs
acrobatics
disable device
escape artist
heal
use magic device
knowledge
linguistics
use magic device.
Skills useful with low DCs
Fly
skills with highly variable dcs
bluff (sometimes)
diplomacy
Perception
intimidate
ride
sense motive
spellcraft
survival (useful for tracking)
Crafts are largely useless (since it takes too long to make anything you'd want), as are professions, climb and swim are negated rather quickly by flying. Appraise has no combat ability, and you may not need it at higher levels because anything thats worth more than bartender tipping is magic. Diplomacy is good, but the dcs are also high.
When making your UMD check(s) all it does is allow you to activate the item as though you were someone else. This does not negate ASF
Which items have ASF associated with them?
or the need to have the item in your possession, but does add the possibility of 'jamming' the item for a day. At best the user is a third class caster that's flushing his money (and arguably his life) away.
UMD is awesome, especially coming into its own at 10th level.
Presuming no Charisma bonus or penalty, a Human character can hit the ground running with a truly impressive bonus out of the gate.
Trait: Dangerously Curious, makes UMD a class skill (+3), adds +1 trait bonus.
Feats: Magical Aptitude (+2), Skill Focus (+3)
1 rank gives you a starting bonus of +10 - a 50/50 shot at 1st level to use any wand or staff.
The "intimidator" Fighter type with a 12 Charisma starts at a +11.
Fast forward to 10th level: 10 ranks +3 class +1 trait +3 circlet of persuasion +0 Charisma +4 Magical Aptitude +6 Skill Focus yields a staggering +27 UMD check - on a natural 2 on the d20 that's sufficient to automatically activate any wand or staff with a caster level of 9th. On a 2. If you earmark it at a natural 8, that gives a check of 35 with a caster level of *15th*. Can we say "staff of evocation" goblins and gremlins? At a check of 35, you can activate almost anything, reliably. With a 10 or 11 Charisma. If you are so lucky as to throw a natural 20, that is a check of 47 (CL 27th!). Bad guy, grab ankles, kiss tucas good bye, your SR is not a concern, thank you for dying.
A 10th level paladin with the same set up and a reasonable Charisma of 24 plus that trusty Circlet of Persuasion packs a UMD bonus of +34. Natural 6 on the die is a check of 40 ... natural 11 is a 45 ... natural 20 is an awe-inspiring 54 ...
Pretty sweet for 2 feats, only 1 trait and a minor magic item plus mastery of the skill in question, isn't it?
Why not just make one roll and compare it to the highest DC required? That's what I do in my games. Quick and easy. Of course, I don't see the point of making things overly difficult.
What he said.
|
|
A third class caster IN ADDITION TO ALL OF THE OTHER SKILLS OF THE CLASS WITH NONE OF THE PENALTIES.
ASF still applies arcane spells, concentration checks are still needed if you're attempting to cast defensively (good luck!), or heaven forbid you're attacked while attempting to use the item. In addition you're paying to do this
Seriously, if it is trained and you don't have any negatives to charisma you can get to +7 as soon as you take skill focus.
A merely trained character can not achieve a +7 with just a rank and skill focus, you need it to be a class skill as well, of which there are only three classes (in CRB) that have UMD as a class skill. Two of those classes are Bard and Sorcerer second and first tier casters respectively.
But let's go with this exercise since you think it's a good idea. I take 1 level of Bard as a human, with a Cha of 20, spend both my first level feats to improve UMD, spend the skill rank, and have a trait bonus of 1. Now we have a character completely twinked out for one skill with a bonus of 15 (far beyond what any normal character would have to be sure), for which he gives up nearly everything else (2 feats, a big hit to other attributes, a trait). Please note this character has the same UMD total as a normal 10th level character with UMD as a class skill
This UMD crazy character now:
Still fails if he ever rolls a 4 or lower (minimum DC 20).
Still fails if he rolls a 9 or less for most UMD checks (25 is actually a bit low, DCs reach up to 40)
Needs a 5 to use a spell trigger item.
Needs a 6 to cast a lv 1 magic missile from a scroll, casting still fails (and scroll consumed) if he doesn't make his ASF. Still needs casting stat of 11 or another (harder) UMD check follows.
Needs a 6 to emulate a 1st level class feature.
Needs a 10 to activate blindly.
Needs a 10 to emulate a race.
Needs an 11 to decipher the previous scroll.
Needs an 11 to emulate caster stat of 11.
Needs a 15 to emulate an alignment, even if it's only one step away.
Needs a 18 to emulate caster stat 18.
Needs a 20 to cast a 8th lv spell from a scroll, casting still fails (and scroll consumed) if he doesn't make his ASF. Still needs casting stat of 18 or another (slightly easier) UMD check follows.
Can not cast a 9th lv spell from a scroll.
Can not attempt to activate any item he has rolled a 1 to activate that day.
Not everything should be easy for everyone.
The UMD twink above doesn't have it easy, most checks require a 10 or higher, and there's plenty of times he'll have to roll multiple times just to use an item he's already earned. Sad thing is he's in the same boat as the 10th level guy.
On second thought maybe we should compare this with other skills.
With a DC 20 I could:
Move half speed across a surface less than 2 inches wide.
Tumble past your average 4th lv fighter.
Jump 20 feet across.
Jump 10 feet across from stand still.
Jump 5 feet up.
Appraise the value of common items.
Determine the most valuable item in a treasure horde.
Feint a lv 5 fighter (about half the time).
Pass a complex secret message to someone.
Climb a typical dungeon wall.
Craft most items.
Earn 10gp a week through craft or profession.
Improve the attitude of an average unfriendly commoner.
Pick a simple lock.
Disguise yourself as a similar person in front of people that recognize him.
Escape from animated rope.
Make a 180 degree turn while flying.
Rear a 5HD animal.
Treat deadly wounds (and most other uses of the heal skill).
Treat many poisons and diseases.
Demoralize an average lv 6 cleric.
Know the answer to tough questions.
Identify a rare CR 5 creature.
Identify a common CR 15 creature.
Identify CR 5 hazards.
Hear a key being turned in a lock.
Identify potion of a 3rd lv spell by taste.
Earn 3d10 sp daily through performances.
Most ride checks, bareback.
Mount a steed as a free action.
Get a 'hunch' on a social situation.
Pick someone's pocket.
Most uses of spellcraft for 5th lv spells.
Most uses of survival.
Track a medium creature that has passed over hard ground that day.
Swim in stormy water.
With a DC 40 I could:
Jump 40 feet across.
Jump 20 feet across from stand still.
Jump 10 feet up.
Jump 5 feet up, from stand still.
Move full speed, over an icy surface, under 2 inches wide, during an earthquake.
Feint a lv 20 fighter (most of the time).
Earn 20 GP a week through craft or profession.
Climb a slippery overhang (with 5 to spare).
Request a favor that could result in harm from a NPC, (at least) twice.
Pick a superior lock.
Escape masterwork manacles (with 5 to spare).
Make a 180 while flying, with poor maneuverability, in a tornado.
Rear a 25 HD animal.
Answer any question.
Identify CR 25 hazards.
Identify rare CR 25 creature.
Notice a burrowing creature, 50 feet away, while asleep.
Earn 3d6 GP a day, draw attention from extraplanar beings (with 10 points to spare).
Pick someone's pocket, as a move action.
Track a fine creature, over hard ground, after a snowfall, two days ago.
Additionally other skills often have kits/tools/magic items that add bonuses, while UMD is very limited in that regard. The need for multiple checks when activating certain items only compounds the already high DCs.
|
|
Care to share how that became your standard?
Both are ways to cast spells, one's relatively easy for spellcasters and next to impossible for people using UMD.
Not sure what levels you tend to play at, but I don't find flying that common previous to 10th level, especially if you're not a caster.
Why do you Awaken every random animal your party comes into possession of? Furthermore isn't that expensive? Not that I'd want to use diplomancy on my property anyway.
I'm not entirely happy with disguise DCs either, but it's very easy to compensate with low cost magic.
A little appraise means not getting short changed when unloading a haul of items. A high enough check tells you if it's magical without bothering your caster for a Detect Magic.
SoH has come in handy for me many times, especially when planting items on others.
Which items have ASF associated with them?
Scrolls. Casting from them also be disrupted as normal casting. Additionally you may need to make multiple checks to activate them (1 for 'using a scroll, possibly 1 for ability score, and it could be argued 1 for emulating the class feature 'caster level').
Even a 10th level Rogue that took skill mastery and had a UMD of 15 (full ranks plus good Cha) would not be able to reliably cast from 4th level scrolls, or any spell with a casting stat higher than he possessed.
If Skill Mastery lets you take 10 on UMD, you'd have a 25 on your UMD checks.
To use a scroll, the DC is 20+CL.
For a 4th level Wizard/Cleric/Druid spell, it's a DC 27.
You can scrape another +2 from somewhere. Take Skill Focus for a +6 at level 10. Now when taking 10, you have a 31.
Taking a 10 to emulate an ability score would give you a 16, which is enough for 6th level spells.
And if you were squeezing this rock until it bled, you could carry around a Wand of Eagle's Splendor. A flat DC 20 check gives you another +2 to the roll.
So, for 1 feat and 1 Rogue Talent, your non-spellcaster can cast 4th level spells from scrolls she bought.
Or just buy wands and make the flat DC 20 check all the time.
|
|
UMD is awesome, especially coming into its own at 10th level.
Presuming no Charisma bonus or penalty, a Human character can hit the ground running with a truly impressive bonus out of the gate.
Trait: Dangerously Curious, makes UMD a class skill (+3), adds +1 trait bonus.
Feats: Magical Aptitude (+2), Skill Focus (+3)
1 rank gives you a starting bonus of +10 - a 50/50 shot at 1st level to use any wand or staff.
And you've spent 20% of the unlocked (not dictated by class) feats you'll gain over 20 levels, half your traits, and the skill is only useful at most half the time.
Fast forward to 10th level: 10 ranks +3 class +1 trait +3 circlet of persuasion +0 Charisma +4 Magical Aptitude +6 Skill Focus yields a staggering +27 UMD check
Ok, let's flip this around a second. Same fighter, only he decided to twink out DD instead.
10 ranks, 3 class and 1 trait (assuming a trait that does similar with DD), 2 feats for +10. masterwork tools +2, goggles of minute seeing +5, and 1 from dex (via belt or stat). We come to a DD of 32, able to unlock anything when taking 10, disable most traps without rolling, and he spent less resources overall to get there. Well 100GP more *if* he got the 1 dex from a belt.on a natural 2...
On a natural 1 it stops working for the day.
If you are so lucky as to throw a natural 20, that is a check of 47 (CL 27th!).
Not as impressive when you can roll into the 50s on DD (60's if you're a rogue twinking DD)
Pretty sweet for 2 feats, only 1 trait and a minor magic item plus mastery of the skill in question, isn't it?
Fairly sour considering that it's so much easier to pump up other skills, get aid another on many skills, take 10 on many skills, take 20 on other skills, cheap magic that can greatly increase skills, and not having to worry about rolling a natural 1.
I wonder why you posted this thread with a question mark when it appears you already know the answer.
|
|
I wonder why you posted this thread with a question mark when it appears you already know the answer.
I was hoping to be wrong, but the deeper I look into it the more problems I see in using it. When I can roll a 52 to hit (which took me multiple rolls and a round to set up), and still miss thanks to a 2nd level spell... Needless to say I'm not thrilled that UMD amounts to lose a turn as ofen as anything else unless you twink your character for the opportunity of spending your cash.
In most people's game's UMD is a very good skill. I guess it is a playstyle issue.
With a DC 20 I could:
Move half speed across a surface less than 2 inches wide. or use a Wand of Fly
Tumble past your average 4th lv fighter.That's nice.
Jump 20 feet across.or use a wand of fly
Jump 10 feet across from stand still.see above
Jump 5 feet up.see above
Appraise the value of common items.or use a scroll of identify to determine the actual properties of magic items
Determine the most valuable item in a treasure horde.yaaaay...
Feint a lv 5 fighter (about half the time).That's nice.
Pass a complex secret message to someone.Or use a scroll of message.
Climb a typical dungeon wall.or use a wand of fly.
Craft most items.anything you want to craft, takes too much time to craft or can simply be bought.
Earn 10gp a week through craft or profession.yaaaaaaay
Improve the attitude of an average unfriendly commoner.Or use a wand of charm person
Pick a simple lock.or use a wand of knock
Disguise yourself as a similar person in front of people that recognize him.or use a scroll of disguise self and one of alter self
Escape from animated rope.That's nice.
Make a 180 degree turn while flying.which you need to do somehow... for example by using UMD to cast fly.
Rear a 5HD animal.or use a wand of charm animal
Treat deadly wounds (and most other uses of the heal skill).or use a wand of cure moderate wounds
Treat many poisons and diseases.or use a wand of cure poison/disease
Demoralize an average lv 6 cleric.or use a wand of "insert debuff"
Know the answer to tough questions.that's nice.
Identify a rare CR 5 creature.that's nice
Identify a common CR 15 creature.that's nice
Identify CR 5 hazards.that pool of lava is dangerous!
Hear a key being turned in a lock.yaaaay (ok, that might be useful - once or twice in a whole campaign)
Identify potion of a 3rd lv spell by taste. or cast identify
Earn 3d10 sp daily through performances.yaaaaay
Most ride checks, bareback.That's nice.
Mount a steed as a free action.That's nice.
Get a 'hunch' on a social situation.That's nice.
Pick someone's pocket.Anyone you'd want to pick pocket from will usually fall into either the "he'll se me if I do it" or "i'd rather pick his pocket once he's dead" group.
Most uses of spellcraft for 5th lv spells.That's nice.
Most uses of survival.Except for tracking, that's pretty weak.
Track a medium creature that has passed over hard ground that day.That's nice.
Swim in stormy water. Except in extreme circumstances, using a wand of fly is more useful, or alter self to become a merfolk
So of these, knowledges have the upper hand on knowledge over UMD, survival is better at tracking, bluff, sense motive, perception and diplomacy are better at their job than UMD... Which is something good.
UMD can fill in for a lot of skills, but not at 100% efficiency - that's as it should be. I've got more issues with spells overshadowing skills than with skills overshadowing spells - and UMD is basically "trade skill points for magic power". Magic can do anything, and so UMD can do nearly anything. You REALLY need that limiter.
To me, the GREAT skills in the game are: Acrobatics, Perception, UMD.
The good skills are: Most of the knowledges, diplomacy, bluff, disable device, sense motive, ride, spellcraft.
The circumstantially useful are: survival, fly, swim, intimidate, linguistics, escape artist.
I might have missed some decent to good skills, but for the most part, the rest of the skills are just plain bad - either too circumstantial or too hard to pull of for their effect, which would otherwise be good (stealth, I'm looking at you).
|
|
In most people's game's UMD is a very good skill. I guess it is a playstyle issue.
Given the minimum DC, multiple checks (often with higher DCs), ASF, cost, and *still* needing to worry about rolling 1s no matter your skill bonus I find it hard to believe.
In the home game I'm running I'll drop all DCs by 5, and drop the nat 1 rule. I just can't see playing it by RAW.
Presuming no Charisma bonus or penalty, a Human character can hit the ground running with a truly impressive bonus out of the gate.
Trait: Dangerously Curious, makes UMD a class skill (+3), adds +1 trait bonus.
Feats: Magical Aptitude (+2), Skill Focus (+3)
1 rank gives you a starting bonus of +10 - a 50/50 shot at 1st level to use any wand or staff.
And you've spent 20% of the unlocked (not dictated by class) feats you'll gain over 20 levels, half your traits, and the skill is only useful at most half the time.
Fast forward to 10th level: 10 ranks +3 class +1 trait +3 circlet of persuasion +0 Charisma +4 Magical Aptitude +6 Skill Focus yields a staggering +27 UMD check
Ok, let's flip this around a second. Same fighter, only he decided to twink out DD instead.
10 ranks, 3 class and 1 trait (assuming a trait that does similar with DD), 2 feats for +10. masterwork tools +2, goggles of minute seeing +5, and 1 from dex (via belt or stat). We come to a DD of 32, able to unlock anything when taking 10, disable most traps without rolling, and he spent less resources overall to get there. Well 100GP more *if* he got the 1 dex from a belt.
You've gone and done the same feats and trait investment and spent only 1,900 gp less than I did. So far the examples are comparable, yet you can do a lot more with Use Magic Device than Disable Device, including bypassing some things that Disable Device cannot - such as certain elements in several of the APs. Disable Device does not "by the book" need to ever exceed say a +32 bonus.
When some one "twinks" their Disable Device, the GM can VERY easily "twink" the DCs on the locks and traps with you being none the wiser. Maybe not in Pathfinder Society play, but certainly anywhere else.
Use Magic Device cannot be so "twinked" - the DCs are clear-cut.
on a natural 2...
On a natural 1 it stops working for the day.
So ? You pull out another wand or staff, get one from a buddy, or get to stabbing/hacking/whack-a-moling. Wands are all over the place as standard loot, often pried out of the cold dead fingers of some foe or another.
If you are so lucky as to throw a natural 20, that is a check of 47 (CL 27th!).
Not as impressive when you can roll into the 50s on DD (60's if you're a rogue twinking DD)
I'd say throwing a caster level of 27 as a 10th level character is pretty impressive. What CR 13 critter that is not a golem or similarly magic-immune creature can ignore that kind of effect punching its SR in the 'nads? None at all other than magic-immune creatures. I will happily take that 5% chance of "oh poo" in trade for plentiful flexibility.
10th rogue, no "twink", has a +25 Disable Device with the aforementioned tools, goggles, a +1 Dexterity bonus and NO trait. Add in two feats for the purpose and you have a +35 - total overkill with nothing to be gained. Skill Mastery solves the Disable Device problem as an advanced rogue talent by permitting one to bypass any magical trap that you will probably ever see (take 10 +25 bonus = 1 higher than a 9th level spell magical trap's DC of 34, automatic success, not nearly the investment).
Use Magic Device, unlike Disable Device, has a great deal to gain from "twink" - especially if you're using a spell trigger item. Factor in Skill Mastery again and the "twink" Use Magic Device check is a 37 every time with one magic item that doesn't require you to be unarmed and unable to fight for anywhere from 1 to 8 rounds (2d4 for DC 25+, halved if you have Quick Disable rogue talent).
Use Magic Device also requires not a single class feature to work very well, although the variations of Skill Mastery - some of which are accessible in Society play - make it even more effective.
Pretty sweet for 2 feats, only 1 trait and a minor magic item plus mastery of the skill in question, isn't it?
Fairly sour considering that it's so much easier to pump up other skills, get aid another on many skills, take 10 on many skills, take 20 on other skills, cheap magic that can greatly increase skills, and not having to worry about rolling a natural 1.
I'd say it's directly comparable as previously demonstrated. Unlike Disable Device - which requires a class feature or a 2nd level spell called find traps in order to attempt to disable magical traps - UMD has no such restriction. Without trapfinding your identical feats/trait/ranks investment and marginally smaller gp investment in Disable Device is of less value than Use Magic Device. You won't even need to invest the trait or feats to deal with non-magical traps. To make the most use of Disable Device you have to have the trapfinding class feature from somewhere.
Also, your Disable Device cannot be used to poke yourself and your allies with wands of the various cure spells, among many many other healing spells that will fit into them. Use Magic Device can and does so easily enough if that is what you want to do.
Bluntly, most rogues arguably SHOULD twink UMD, relying on the benefits of trapfinding to carry the weight for Disable Device (as outlined above). I went with the approach of "Duh Fighter" having it, not "Rascal the Rogue" as you did. UMD is a solid way, with a bit of an upfront investment, to considerably expand a character's capabilities.
Let us presume that the "check 47" UMD guy, whomever that may be, has plastered an adult blue dragon (CR 13 vs. APL 10 party) with the staff of fire that the just-electrified-to-death party arcane caster dropped next to UMD guy. Total overkill, but the dragon's SR of 24 is nothing against the caster level 27 fireball it just ate in the kisser. UMD guy, for some reason, doesn't have a projectile weapon that can really hurt the flyby attack dragon - but the staff of fire has fireballs, range now favors UMD guy. Now, fireball is not the best "weapon", but it's what you have. With UMD you at least have that option.
If UMD guy is the Rascal the Rogue (Skill Mastery Disable Device and Use Magic Device, among other things), he can probably avoid the blue dragon's breath weapon with regular evasion more often that not. He is presumably shaken by the frightful presence, so that gives Rascal the Rogue a skill mastery-enabled take 10 UMD check of 35 every round, resulting in a caster level of 15 (compared to his compatriot's generally *much* lower casting levels) and an ability score of 20 - setting the fireball DC at 18 - against that pesky 24 SR of the adult blue dragon. 60% chance every charge thrown punches through. Compared to his party members at a caster level of 10th, they have to have invested two feats of their own to get Greater Spell Penetration. Unless that character is ALSO an Elf, UMD guy is slightly better at penetrating SR. Even if that character is an Elf, UMD guy is only slightly worse at penetrating SR. Odds are UMD guy can either take considerably more raw punishment than most elves, or UMD guy has a Reflex save bonus twice as good as his compatriots.
If UMD guy was the previously mentioned 10th level Paladin, he's ignoring the dragon's frightful presence, has "built in" means of rapidly ignoring or greatly reducing the lightning breath weapon all on his own *and* packs that nasty UMD check bonus of +34. The dragon really does not want to get in melee with most paladins, and for some reason our 10th level paladin is currently unable to fly. Probably because his pointy-eared low-CON arcane caster buddy just finished dancing on the end of that 12d8 lightning breath.
Check of 40 (nat 6) is almost guaranteed to punch through the dragon's 24 SR thanks to the caster level of 20. The emulated ability score is a 25, setting the fireball DC at a 20. Check of 44+, natural 10+ on the die, does it without question or fail (and a check of 44 emulates an ability score of 29, setting the fireball DC at 22). Having "only" a staff of fire is not so bad, since the paladin can deplete the staff completely to fling five fireballs into Mr Dragon because Mr Dragon doesn't want to play with the UMD paladin in melee. Probably Mr Dragon either pre-casts or casts after the first fireball resist fire 10, so the fireballs are not the "weapon of choice". (Smite Evil with a bow is, but that's another matter.)
Rascal can, via Skill Mastery, use any magic item. Any, with the sole exception of scrolls of higher than a caster level of 15th, emulating an ability score of 20. So good ol' Rascal can cast any spell from a scroll - from any 'primary' casting class - except 9th level spells or 8th level spells written at higher than that caster level of 15 (a rarity). His black little heart can pick up a paladin's holy avenger and sneak attack with it. Or, if he's Awful Good he can steal the Anti-Paladin's Unholy Reaver and stab him in the kidney with it. He can twirl a life drinker weapon in each hand without a care in the world about each of the 2 negative levels he would otherwise be eating with every hit he dished out with them. He can persuade Excalibur that he is, indeed, King Arthur and probably cajole the blade to give up The Lady in the Lake's address.
And that's just Rascal. And yes, he can always read scrolls of horrid wilting and maze. At 10th level.
The UMD Paladin has a pretty reliable UMD check 5 points higher than Rascal's, although he does have to roll each time. The only time he equals Rascal's Skill Mastery check of 35 is when he throws that dreaded natural 1. Oh well, the price you pay of a 5% "item off for the day" is the more common "what did you say the caster level was again?!".
UMD guy throws, at 10th, a check of 47 on a natural 20. Resulting caster level: 27th. Emulated Ability Score: 32 - that's a save DC of 21 plus spell level. The fireball from the staff of fire has a DC of 24. If we're talking about a Staff of Evocation (and we're NOT wasting a chain lighting on a blue dragon), that is a DC 27 chain lighting that can hit a primary target at 1480 feet, deals 20d6 electricity per target, and hits 20 secondary targets (if there are that many within 30 feet of the primary). The secondaries "only" have to deal with a DC 25 save though, what a shame /sarcasm/. Rascal gets positively scary with a staff of evocation ... and we're only working with a 10th level set up, not the higher level one that would normally warrant seeing a staff of evocation in play.
|
Given the minimum DC, multiple checks (often with higher DCs), ASF, cost, and *still* needing to worry about rolling 1s no matter your skill bonus I find it hard to believe.In the home game I'm running I'll drop all DCs by 5, and drop the nat 1 rule. I just can't see playing it by RAW.
There is no natural 1 rule on skill checks. Neither is there a natural 20 rule.
There is no natural 1 rule on skill checks. Neither is there a natural 20 rule.
Given the minimum DC, multiple checks (often with higher DCs), ASF, cost, and *still* needing to worry about rolling 1s no matter your skill bonus I find it hard to believe.In the home game I'm running I'll drop all DCs by 5, and drop the nat 1 rule. I just can't see playing it by RAW.
UMD explicitly states a natural 1 rule.
In most people's game's UMD is a very good skill. I guess it is a playstyle issue.Given the minimum DC, multiple checks (often with higher DCs), ASF, cost, and *still* needing to worry about rolling 1s no matter your skill bonus I find it hard to believe.
In the home game I'm running I'll drop all DCs by 5, and drop the nat 1 rule. I just can't see playing it by RAW.
When it is needed it seems to be very useful. That is why I don't mind that it is harder than the other skills. You can't make a jump check then you fly. You can't pick a lock, cast knock. You need to activate an item and you don't have UMD, <cricket noises start to be heard>. I can't speak for every group of course, but many online posters like to have at least on party member with it, and I have not seen to many groups in real like not have it. I don't think I can convince you since everyone has said almost everything that I would have said. If it does sit well in your game then do what you have to do.
UMD explicitly states a natural 1 rule.You still don't fail automatically.
Considering that a half elven summoner can easily have a UMD in the thirties, I have no problem with the DCs. They even seem kind of low if you take such characters into account.
Failing due to a nat 1 is what is considered an "auto fail". It is stated that way because if you roll a "1" your modifiers don't matter. They are not saying you auto-fail as in there is no possible way to make a UMD check.
In most people's game's UMD is a very good skill. I guess it is a playstyle issue.Given the minimum DC, multiple checks (often with higher DCs), ASF, cost, and *still* needing to worry about rolling 1s no matter your skill bonus I find it hard to believe.
In the home game I'm running I'll drop all DCs by 5, and drop the nat 1 rule. I just can't see playing it by RAW.
why is the multiple checks such an issue? it's called "use magical device" not "cast any spell from a scroll whenever i want to".
If a magic item your trying to use needs a different alignment, a higher ability, or a different race then those are probably the ones you SHOULDN'T be trying to use! That part of the argument really doesn't have much merit. what your asking from your post reworded is basically "UMD should have easier DC's". And for what it does i (and most people) certainly don't agree that a level 1 rogue should be able to have UMD with 3 ranks and cast spells likes he's a 5th level mage by just throwing coin on scrolls. Magic can do just about anything, skills can't.
"With a DC 20 I could:
Move half speed across a surface less than 2 inches wide. or use a Wand of Fly
Tumble past your average 4th lv fighter.That's nice.
Jump 20 feet across.or use a wand of fly
Jump 10 feet across from stand still.see above
Jump 5 feet up.see above"
or with a DC 20 use a wand with a spell to overcome ANY of those examples....
UMD is too good as it, especially for rogues. they dont have to sacrifice anything really with all the skill points they get. and they gain the ability to cast just about any spell with only a feat and some DC checks. what you ought to be comparing to put this in prospective is this:
what if wizards had a skill called "arcane combat" make a dc check of X and fight as a fighter of level X.
OR allow spellcaster to cast spells in full plate mail if they make a DC X check and they get no ACP.
OR allow spellcasters a skill to treat there class level equivalent to a fighters with a an X DC check to use heroics for weapon specialization, and other fighter level feats.
UMD is fine as it is, it already steps on the toes of every caster class out there. This is a team game and you shouldn't be able to do EVERYTHING reliably without having to rely on your team mates.
NotMousse- Im not sure what your actually trying to achieve trying to rely on UMD to do so much. Do you just want your character to be able to cast spells because your party lacks a spellcaster? Or do you just want your character to be able to do everything so you can gloat to the rest of the party that you dont need them for anything and laugh at the wizard cause you can cast spells and still jump into melee?
It seems you keep hinting at scrolls to cast spells but those are actually one of the WORST things to use UMD for in the first place. The DC's are high and there really expensive to waste on UMD. as i mentioned earlier items that you need to emulate a bunch of class abilities to use are bad choices as well and it shouldn't even be an issue since not many magical devices need numerous class features. If they do, the game is basically saying "the holy avenger was created FOR paladins to use so quite trying to steal there thunder!". while UMD may allow you to use such items it shouldn't be able to be done reliably without being that specific class, race, having X stat, or alignment in the first place. After all, you CHOSE your class, race, assigned your stats, and alignment just like everyone else nobody FORCED you to. Your character was not banned from using magic items you chose to be limited when you selected your class! In summery you created your own weaknesses and no skill should allow you to easily and reliably overcome what you chose to be weak at....
Now if you have curtain magical things you want your character to do since your not a spellcaster im sure some poster or myself can give you adive on how to do that more reliably.
I have a player in my gaming group who've i GM'd for 10 years. He always plays a rogue or some form of one. He also loves UMD and its always one of the skills he kept maxed. he liked having the opportunity to try using various magic items to cast spells. before our kingmaker campaign started up sure enough he made a rogue pc and maxed UMD. I sat down with him and asked, "you know you always max UMD if you like spells that much why don't you try playing a wizard, sorcerer, or even a bard?" he said he didn't want to because he didn't want to specialize in spellcasting and magic was too complicated. He loves playing sneaky ninja types and prefers using only a handfull of spells that work with his character or for buffs and situational spells. so i asked "knowing what spells you have leaned to in the past you've used UMD mainly for wands 99% of the time you've used UMD". "Whats your point" he says. well using a wand is only a DC 20, last campaign you had a +22 modifier to UMD and spent some feats on it as well which was a waste." "good point" he says.
i also informed him that spell casters can use any wand that has the spell on there spell list without having to use UMD and without penalty other than the cost of wands,which are relatively cheap and have multiple charges unlike a scroll. I told him a level dip in sorcerer for example would give him a couple spells, spontaneous casting so he wouldn't have to select spells memorized everyday, no worries about having to add spells into a spell book, and would allow him to use any arcane wand. he was ecstatic. He would only have to manage a small number of spells but if he found a spell he really liked but didnt have access to he could just buy wands and keep his spell array simple and easy to manage.
Now i have a happy elf 1/1/1 rogue/sorcerer/oracle wand wielder who can use just about any arcane/divine wand. he said he already has all the spell power he will ever want or at least has the option to buy new wands/spells without ever having to even put any points in UMD. he plans on going rogue the rest of his levels now with an efficiency quiver of wands :D
UMD explicitly states a natural 1 rule.You still don't fail automatically.
Considering that a half elven summoner can easily have a UMD in the thirties, I have no problem with the DCs. They even seem kind of low if you take such characters into account.
UMD has a few interesting cases.
If you've activated the item at least once before, you get a +2 to activate the same item again. If you fail by 9 or less, you cannot activate the item. A failure by 10+ results in a mishap. (This is in addition to the mishap that can result from a scroll.)
"Try Again" states that if you ever roll a natural 1 while attempting to activate an item and you fail then you can't activate that item again for 24 hours.
Which is actually better than I remembered it being. If our 10th level Cha 10 rogue buddy Rascal, above, with his Skill Mastery check of 35 after a -2 penalty for being shaken, rolls a 1 the result is a 36. He can only fail to activate against a DC of 37 or higher - which is a scroll of 17th caster level or higher. (Under more controlled circumstances he won't fail to activate even a 17th level scroll.)
Seems that ol' Rascal is even better off than I would have thought - great catch, Jadeite! Learn something new and useful every day 'round these parts.
Basically, the UMaDbro skill is one suited to characters that enjoy being able to pull a great big grab bag of "" out in a pinch.
Yes, many times there are more useful things a Player can do, but having the huge Warrior-guy pull out a Scroll of Mass Heal and use it in close combat, trusting in his High AC to keep him safe before *BOOOM* up come his companions and down go the Undead that were kicking their arses.
Both are ways to cast spells, one's relatively easy for spellcasters and next to impossible for people using UMD.
One is relatively easy for someone who spent their entire life studying it. The other is hard for someone who took a quickie correspondence course. I have no problem with this.
Not sure what levels you tend to play at, but I don't find flying that common previous to 10th level, especially if you're not a caster.
At fifth level casters get fly. At third level they get spider climb. The movement skills get eclipsed very very quickly.
Why do you Awaken every random animal your party comes into possession of? Furthermore isn't that expensive? Not that I'd want to use diplomancy on my property anyway.
Its not awaken. Druid animal companions get stat increases. You can use one of those increases to add 3 to its int, so you don't need handle animal checks to get your companion to do something.
You can't use handle animal as diplomacy to get an animal to like you: thats not a listed use of the skill and its the class ability: animal empathy.
Rearing animals is something done at the GM's discretion. If you treat them like property, they'll act like property.
A little appraise means not getting short changed when unloading a haul of items. A high enough check tells you if it's magical without bothering your caster for a Detect Magic.
Sense motive will do the same thing when dealing with merchants. So will diplomacy.
Asking the caster for a cantrip that 1) they memorize every day and 2) they can cast 1,000 times a day isn't that big of a deal.
SoH has come in handy for me many times, especially when planting items on others.
Its very situational.
Scrolls. Casting from them also be disrupted as normal casting. Additionally you may need to make multiple checks to activate them (1 for 'using a scroll, possibly 1 for ability score, and it could be argued 1 for emulating the class feature 'caster level').
And wands rods and staves dont. So if you're wearing heavy armor use something else, or better yet use a divine spell.
|
|
You've gone and done the same feats and trait investment and spent only 1,900 gp less than I did.
Only 1,900 less, *before* you use UMD for the first time. Every time you use (and I've heard argument even when you fail) you've expended a minimum of 15GP (8 for a lv 0 wand charge). When twinking DD he also came out with a higher bonus, can get aid another, only needs to make 1 check per attempt, and doesn't fail on 1s.
Use Magic Device cannot be so "twinked" - the DCs are clear-cut.
Not so easy to fudge DD DCs, locks DCs are clear cut (even with magic enhancements) and it's easy to calculate CRs of traps that 'mysteriously' got harder to disable. I'd hit my GM up for extra XP. Or point out that I invested in DD because I don't want to be hit by traps, I want to disable them.
Wands are all over the place as standard loot, often pried out of the cold dead fingers of some foe or another.
So you're supposed to pay twice for everything? Yes wands may be 'loot' but you're still spending resources be they GP, or items on hand. Sure I tend to carry two CLW wands when one's nearly out of juice, but I don't want to carry a half dozen partial wands because I keep putting them on the fritz.
...UMD is a solid way, with a bit of an upfront investment, to considerably expand a character's capabilities.
It needs a LOT of investment to make even the most basic checks reliably, to the point where I can't see just taking caster levels instead.
And where do you get that a 10th lv anything is carrying around an item over 30% of their total WBL? I could see maybe a weapon or armor that's upgraded over time, but but not a chance with a staff.
Unless that character is ALSO an Elf, UMD guy is slightly better at penetrating SR.
The way I'm reading the rules the rogue has *no* chance of beating SR 24. UMD only allows you to activate items as though you had the requirements. At no point do you have actual caster levels for any other purpose. Not for concentration checks, not for beating SR, not for anything you might need a caster level for aside from activating a magic item. The same goes for setting DCs, which unless you honestly had the requisite stat would default to the minimum DC.
On second thought, in the case of a staff you'd be able to use it's caster level of 8, but that's far from a sure shot (even then 5 fireballs aren't likely to dent a dragon).
King Arthur and probably cajole the blade to give up The Lady in the Lake's address.
Rogue's taken Int as a dump stat if he can't figure out the lady in the lake lives in... the lake.
]
As pointed out above, when you have a +19 UMD bonus, you cannot fail to activate a wand. A natural 1 is of no concern whatsoever since you did not fail the check. Any higher bonus is used to blast away with staves and bypass eldritch gates and such that the group can't otherwise figure out how it works. Some portals a set of thieves' tools won't do a bloody thing to open.
RE: caster level beating SR: figuring caster level (for staves specifically) is (check -20), as per the UMD skill description. You don't need caster level or anything else to use wands. You definitely want that for a staff, since if the wielder's caster level is higher than that of the staff, that higher caster level is what you use. The same applies for the ability score (check-15) the check emulates.
Say you have a check of 40. -20 gives a caster level of 20th, while -15 gives an emulated ability score of 25, setting that base DC at 17 plus spell level. This information is in the skill description. An earlier suggestion is one that I personally use and recommend - make one check, problem solved. By the book a natural 1 is only an issue IF that check (bonus +1) is a failure. Early in an adventurer's career, sure, UMD is only semi-reliable (with a few exceptions). Later on that risk drops rapidly, how soon depends on the character's specifics.
As far as "why is a 10th level dude carrying a staff of fire": simple, not everyone gets to custom-tailor their gear list like a NASCAR racing team does for their vehicle(s). Some times you have to make do with the loot you've scooped up throughout the campaign. Council of Thieves, for example, could present this very situation if a GM were so inclined. Some other instances crop up throughout almost every published campaign and in more than a few 'home-brew' campaigns.
Relying on caster level checks to activate spell trigger items is potentially more dangerous, depending on the disparity between your caster level and the necessary caster level check required to activate that particular item.
However, I'm pretty happy with a 10th level character than can pretty reliably use just about anything without having to even roll the die other than for a few specific items is a nice cup of tea. YMMV.
Regarding traps/disable device:
I can fudge trap DCs super-easy by scaling CR. Most traps are VERY low CR, and a +5 to a DC is only a +1 to CR. As the GM, I know that most locks won't have a DC higher than 40, 50 with an arcane lock on the door. I know that magical traps are worthless with a normal maximum DC of 34. Those I won't fudge - I wouldn't award XP for it either unless it was part of an encounter that the group really needed the rogue/trapfinder dude to bypass before they were squished/eaten/stabbed/whatever.
What I can definitively fudge, knowing that Rascal the Rogue has a Skill Mastery Perception and Disable Device skills suite when dealing with traps of a 50 in each, is design traps with a DC of 52 on one or the other check. a spiked pit trap at a CR 2 has DCs for both of 20. I want Rascal to actually throw a die to notice it. CR 5 makes the Perception DC a "30 or higher". Technically, the "or higher" can be any number I choose without increasing the CR. Since I'm not that much of a tool, the chart makes it clear that +10 DC is worth +2 after the initial +3 CR, so setting one of the DCs to a 52 is about a CR 9 trap. For 10th level Rascal, this is a minor challenge. Anything less than that CR 9 example - either DC at a 52 but not both - is no challenge at all other than the rounds used to dispatch the trap in question. No challenge in my book is worth no experience. Heck, maybe I want to tie Rascal up with whomever is dedicating their actions to constantly Aid Rascal's Perception and Disable Device checks...
A CR 13 trap bumped up from a CR 5 can have both DCs at a 52 - a falling block trap sounds pretty nice for this...
I don't mind a *reasonable* ability to find, disable and bypass traps. (Defined as a check of 50, assuming Skill Mastery with a check of 40 for each, including the benefit of the trapfinding class feature.) I do mind any expectation to never challenge that ability which it seems is what you are aiming for, unless I am misunderstanding.
|
|
I think the UMD checks should be lower.
Mostly because of how they are at low-level play. A DC 20 is very, very hard to hit reliably below level 5, and still hard to hit until level 10 in most cases. Sure, you can twink it out and get there faster... but if the skill is not useful without specialization, it's a badly designed skill.
So I think in my next game, I'll reduce all the UMD checks by 5 and see how it goes. Maybe I'll make the wand DC (15 + spell level) or something like that.
This thread amuses me. The reason UMD checks are fairly difficult is a feature not a bug, puzzle out why.
|
|
As pointed out above, when you have a +19 UMD bonus, you cannot fail to activate a wand.
Ah, I didn't catch the 'and' in the sentence. At least I can't fail to use wands if I physically can't roll a failure...
RE: caster level beating SR: figuring caster level (for staves specifically) is (check -20), as per the UMD skill description.
As per the CRB the UMD skill is only used to activate items, it carries no weight when assigning DCs, beating SR, making concentration checks, or anything else associated with qualities of an actual caster.
An earlier suggestion is one that I personally use and recommend - make one check, problem solved.
Nearly solved. My point when listing actions with a 20 DC is to point out that DC 20 represents very difficult to nearly impossible tasks (EG acrobatics, not many people could jump 5 feet in the air and land standing upright). But more to the point it strikes me as bad design to have (the potential) of multiple checks for a single standard action. Sure I can houserule it in my games, but the entire reason you buy an RPG line is because they've written a strong system and/or a compelling setting.
Early in an adventurer's career, sure, UMD is only semi-reliable (with a few exceptions). Later on that risk drops rapidly, how soon depends on the character's specifics.
Without twinking UMD rarely works early on, doubly so if Cha isn't your caster stat.
As far as "why is a 10th level dude carrying a staff of fire": simple, not everyone gets to custom-tailor their gear list like a NASCAR racing team does for their vehicle(s).
While I don't personally subscribe to the magi-mart mentality either, I still find it extremely unlikely that someone suddenly lands nearly a third of their expected wealth in one drop. I'm going to have to reconsider a future CoT purchase if such a situation actually crops up.
I can fudge trap DCs super-easy by scaling CR.
That's not fudging, that's scaling CR. Many of the example traps are low CR precisely so you can use them right away and scale up as your party levels.
I wouldn't award XP for it either unless it was part of an encounter that the group really needed the rogue/trapfinder dude to bypass before they were squished/eaten/stabbed/whatever.
You don't award XP for traps disabled?!?! Why?
A CR 13 trap bumped up from a CR 5 can have both DCs at a 52 - a falling block trap sounds pretty nice for this...
I'm going to have to disagree on trap design philosophy. First your trap has DCs 18 higher than anything listed in the book. If you've gotten yourself to a +30 in perception (or +20 with skill mastery) I'd be inclined to handwave most perception DCs (not that he'd miss many from the CRB) as that's just finding out you're in danger from a trap.
Disabling the trap is another matter, but even then if someone can call forth a 50 at will I'm not going to bother unless there's ample in campaign reason as to why such a trap would exist. Perhaps it's a dungeon Xagyg built on dimensional holiday, but that's not often.
The damage is the worst offender of all though. Assuming the rogue fails to spot it and the entire party is caught in the area, and they're all hit, and it rolls max damage you've cost the cleric 2 channels. I'd be pissed if I invested so heavily into trapslaying and find out when traps are actually around my contribution means so little.
I do mind any expectation to never challenge that ability which it seems is what you are aiming for, unless I am misunderstanding.
If you're defining 50 as 'reasonable' and expect to challenge someone able to routinely make that DC. If I'm pulling a 50 out below say 15th level, I expect that to beat just about anything on the block. Even just wargaming the concept I'm having trouble figuring out a 50 DD before 10th.
This thread amuses me. The reason UMD checks are fairly difficult is a feature not a bug, puzzle out why.
Oh, I get it.
It's a feature that I can't build a party that forgoes having both a full arcane and divine caster.
Not a bug.
Look, simply put it's too restrictive to be worth using. It's not just UMD though. It'd be nice to be able to kit up a rogue (for instance) who can pull out a wand of fireball when the party really needs one. Sadly, the price on the wand is prohibitively high such that by the time he/the party could afford one, its utility would make it not worth using. Wands, scrolls, all using the creator's caster-level, yet being very expensive. Adding a high skill-check to the equation just makes it not worth doing.
I get it that the economy is designed to prevent full casters (who have limited slots per day) from churning out spells all the time, but it mechanically impacts a lot of interesting builds. Builds that UMD nominally could allow.
At the DCs listed, it would be far more interesting if X times per day you could activate a magic device and change its caster-level as well. Imagine a rogue picking up a wand of magic missile at caster level 1, then able to use UMD 3 times per day to elevate it to CL9th (assuming he's got nine hit dice). Something like that would make it worthwhile.
This thread amuses me. The reason UMD checks are fairly difficult is a feature not a bug, puzzle out why.Oh, I get it.
It's a feature that I can't build a party that forgoes having both a full arcane and divine caster.
Not a bug.
We rarely have a full divine in our parties, actually. Currently in our RotRL campaign, the closest things we have to casters is a ranger and a bard. In our homebrew longrunning campaign, the closest thing to a full divine is a cleric 3/rogue 4.
Making a skill that allows you to copy one of the main features of another class hard to pull off isn't that big of a deal, since you can make do without it until you're high enough level to use it safely.
Because a CE assassin should not be able to use a holy avenger with anything less than 2 DC 30 checks -- ever.
And a wisdom 7 sorcerer shouldn't be able to use a scroll of miracle with anything less than 2 DC 30+ checks -- ever.