Rise of the Runelords and Crypt of the Everflame both have Valeros as using longsword and shortsword. I prefer the single-weapon dual-wielders myself (more mileage out of the feats that require specific weapons).
Statting out a fighter from 1 to 20 (not including gear mind you) took a decent amount of time even using Hero Lab (and my version should be revised, admittedly). But I like being able to see the progression unlike in other high level stat blocks (such as the level 20 fighter in the Rival sourcebook). I think providing gear could be helpful, but it's also very time consuming to do by level and would vary greatly if you were statting out a PC vs an NPC.
I still think it's a neat endeavor, and would greatly appreciate it if could be done and offered up to the community (a pdf for $10.99 wouldn't be out of the question). Maybe a third party provider could do it? Would that be kosher? Just some thoughts from a DM who would love to see this. Thanks!
Creative Director
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Rise of the Runelords and Crypt of the Everflame both have Valeros as using longsword and shortsword. I prefer the single-weapon dual-wielders myself (more mileage out of the feats that require specific weapons).
Most of our iconics have choices "hardwired" into them by their art. Wayne paints his characters to look cool, without much interest in exactly how the rules wold work to make that character work. Which, frankly, is the way it should be done, because slavery to rules limits creativity in art.
AKA: Valeros does indeed have two different weapons that he dual-wields with, even though it's not as efficient from a feat viewpoint. And Harsk the ranger uses a crossbow, not a bow or 2 weapons. And Sajan fights with a sword, not his fists. And so on.
I'd welcome a free pdf with the iconics available on the site.
I would LOVE to see it, and I couldn't care less if they were "optimized" or not.
There is so much vitriol over the word 'optimization' which has come to mean both 'making a souless, disruptive, game-wrecking, power gaming, homunculus of a PC' and 'making a character that is not bad at everything by accidentally picking trap options' at the same time in these forums. I'd kind of like to see this issue addressed by the moderators.
I would also like to see a colorful cast of iconic heroes, imperfections and all. If Harsk has to wield a crossbow though, can he at least choose the crossbow combat style from the APG so that new players would know such things were available? I'd like to promote strong option consideration to new players.
I like my iconics to look cool not exactly be optimized. I like making my own character but I like my iconics and other art to look cool. If you want to stat up all the iconics with new options maybe a thread in suggestions houserules homebrew to make their stats so the community could work together.
So! If you want sample stats, would you prefer us to stat up the iconics (warts and sub-optimal choices and all) ... ?
This. I realize and even want that, exactly.
ALSO: Harsk is a dual-wielder. He dual-wields axes like crazy. He just ALSO has a crossbow.
Most of our iconics have choices "hardwired" into them by their art. Wayne paints his characters to look cool, without much interest in exactly how the rules wold work to make that character work. Which, frankly, is the way it should be done, because slavery to rules limits creativity in art.
AKA: Valeros does indeed have two different weapons that he dual-wields with, even though it's not as efficient from a feat viewpoint. And Harsk the ranger uses a crossbow, not a bow or 2 weapons. And Sajan fights with a sword, not his fists. And so on.
Not a problem. I've built characters based on cool artwork more than once even though it meant making choices I wouldn't normally have made. Heck, I've even built PC's (or more likely NPC's) based on minis that we have available. =P
I need to go back through my build for V anyway and pick a more appropriate progression so in doing that I can make him a longsword/shortsword TWF rather than dual shortswords. I hope y'all don't mind that I am doing this. It's interesting to me to go through the motions, and since I use some of the iconics as NPC's in my campaign, this allows me to have a stat block for them at various points in time. Thanks!
There is so much vitriol over the word 'optimization' which has come to mean both 'making a souless, disruptive, game-wrecking, power gaming, homunculus of a PC' and 'making a character that is not bad at everything by accidentally picking trap options' at the same time in these forums. I'd kind of like to see this issue addressed by the moderators.
I would also like to see a colorful cast of iconic heroes, imperfections and all. If Harsk has to wield a crossbow though, can he at least choose the crossbow combat style from the APG so that new players would know such things were available? I'd like to promote strong option consideration to new players.
1. Optimization is always going to be a potential firestorm on any coceivable discussion board and the only thing that moderators can do is eliminate our posting access in total. Because it's going to come up.
2. The iconics should represent the "standard default" for their class, essentially be "iconic" examples, not specialized to particular styles. What each of us considers "strong" or "best" options is going to be variable. I'm a firm believer that new players should be free to make their own original mistakes and decide on their own what should be "strong".... for them.
1.I was thinking something more along the lines of a glossary for new posters of forum words. One that would tell a new poster that 'MAD' stands for multi-attribute dependent, and 'optimization means many things across the Internet, but on our forum it refers to X.' less civilized, anonymous image boards have areas like this hammered out so that when a thread approaches it's vitriol threshold it can be locked with a reason given as reference besides 'stop being horrible to each other.' Regular posters would understand why a seemingly well meaning thread devolved into forum regulars acting two years old name calling about who is the more stupid stupid-head, but the well meaning chap who started the thread would be left scratching his head about the subject. I would know, I've seen it countless times before as a newbie.
Basically, a page of terms utilizable as a point of reference and that sets the acceptable tone of discourse is something I would like to see the moderators of paizo make available for their own use and for others to link to as well.
That said,
2. I agree, something that some new or underprepared player is going to use as a character should not be well below the baseline for that particular class. However, as a DM where I recently had a player ask for a premade character, I think that in leveling up I am going to allow that character to take a mulligan on options that he found, in review of his character sheet after the session, that he neither wanted nor needed. This may continue for as long as it takes until he has reached the baseline power level of the party.
Reaper Miniatures
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TBH, I'm considering just using Hero Lab to build a character of every class, and saving copies of each one at every odd level on my own. Not sure how optimal they'd be, but they'd at least get the new player on the table running right away.Someone's already done that. Check out the Pathfinder Society Pregens on Pathfinder DB.
Nabbed! Thanks!
Here is a second attempt at building out Valeros 1-20 with longsword and shortsword keeping it as core as I could remember and building out in a fashion that didn't break picking up anything ahead of its ability to be selected. For what it's worth...
Valeros, iconic fighter
NG Medium human (Chelaxian) fighter 1
Init +6; Senses normal
Language: Common, Elven
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +2 Dexterity)
hp 12 (1d10+2 including favored class bonus)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.(20 ft. in armor)
Melee longsword +3 (1d8+3, 19-20/x2) and shortsword +2 (1d6+1, 19-20/x2)
Ranged shortbow +3 (1d6, 20/x2; 60 ft.)
STATISTICS (15-point buy)
Str 16 (base 14+2 racial)
Dex 15 (base 15)
Con 12 (base 12)
Int 13 (base 13)
Wis 8 (base 8)
Cha 10 (base 10)
Base Attack +1, CMB +4, CMD 16
Traits (PC only): Fortified Drinker, Iron Liver
Skills: 4 ranks per level (suggest a mix of Climb, Handle Animal, Knowledge: dungeon, Intimidate, Ride, Survival, and Swim)
Feats:
(H)-Improved Initiative
(1)-Weapon Focus (longsword)
(F)-Two-Weapon Fighting
Advancement:
(2)-Feat: Weapon Focus (shortsword)
(2)-Bravery +1
(3)-Feat: Iron Will
(3)-Armor Training 1
(4)-Feat: Weapon Specialization (longsword)
(4)-Dex +1 (16)
(5)-Feat: Weapon Specialization (shortsword)
(5)-Weapon Training (heavy blades)
(6)-Feat: Power Attack
(6)-Bravery +2
(7)-Feat: Combat Expertise
(7)-Armor Training 2
(8)-Feat: Improved Disarm
(8)-Str +1 (17)
(9)-Feat: Improved Critical (longsword)
(9)-Weapon Training (light blades)
(10)-Feat: Improved Critical (shortsword)
(10)-Bravery +3
(11)-Feat: Critical Focus
(11)-Armor Training 3
(12)-Feat: Double Slice
(12)-Str +1 (18)
(13)-Feat: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (assuming can get a Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2)
(13)-Weapon Training (bows)
(14)-Feat: Bleeding Critical
(14)-Bravery +4
(15)-Feat: Lunge
(15)-Armor Training 4
(16)-Feat: Combat Reflexes
(16)-Con +1 (13)
(17)-Feat: Improved Iron Will
(17)-Weapon Training (close)
(18)-Feat: Greater Weapon Specialization (longsword)
(18)-Bravery +5
(19)-Feat: Toughness
(19)-Armor Mastery
(20)-Feat: Two-weapon Rend
(20)-Weapon Mastery (longsword)
(20)-Con +1 (14)
At level 20 with regular weapons and only magic item is belt of incredible dexterity +2
hp 204 (10+19d10 (avg 6)+80 including favored class bonus)
Fort +14, Ref +10, Will +7
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.(20 ft. in armor)
Melee longsword +27/+22/+17/+12 (1d8+12, 17-20/x2) and shortsword +26/+21 (1d6+9, 17-20/x2)
Ranged composite longbow (strength +4) +26/+21/+16/+11 (1d8+6, 20/x3; 110 ft.)
STATISTICS (15-point buy)
Str 18
Dex 18 (requires belt of incredible dexterity +2)
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 8
Cha 10
Base Attack +20, CMB +24 (+26 disarm), CMD 38 (40 disarm, longsword cannot be disarmed)
Valeros in all his incarnations has TWF from level 1.
I posted a build that had him a Fighter/Ranger/Chevalier. It played EXACTLY to Valeros' stereotype.
I got around the 'slavery' to long/short by making him wield a sun sword-style weapon as his 'long' weapon, but it counted as a short sword. Ta-da, no more two-style penalty.
He's described as fearless. Since Bravery is basically useless to a Fighter, Chevalier makes him immune to fear and poison..so he can also drink anyone under the table!
his ancillary skills have always been Survival and Intimidation, and Ranger fits perfect with those and his TWF style.
The build I made him for was for Rise of the Rune Lords AP, adjusting him upwards by AP. He turned out very effective and organic at all levels.
==Aelryinth
Here is a 1-20 build for Amiri. This should follow the Kingmaker progression and uses core only material (pretty sure at least). This is the last one of these I plan on doing. *grin*
Amiri, iconic barbarian
CN Medium human (Kellid) barbarian 1
Init +1; Senses normal
Language: Common, Hallit
DEFENSE
AC 15, touch 11, flat-footed 14 (+4 armor, +1 Dexterity)
hp 15 (1d12+3 including favored class bonus)
Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.(30 ft. in armor)
Melee large bastard sword +3 (2d8+4, 19-20/x2) including -2 penalty for using oversized weapon
Ranged longbow +2 (1d8, 20/x3; 100 ft.)
STATISTICS (15-point buy)
Str 17 (base 15+2 racial)
Dex 13 (base 13)
Con 14 (base 14)
Int 10 (base 10)
Wis 12 (base 12)
Cha 8 (base 8)
Base Attack +1, CMB +4, CMD 15
Traits (PC only): Anatomist, Iron Grip
Skills: 5 ranks per level (suggest a mix of Acrobatics, Climb, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge: nature, Perception, Ride, Survival, and Swim)
Feats:
(H)-Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword)
(1)-Weapon Focus (bastard sword)
Abilities:
(1)-Fast Movement
(1)-Rage (+4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will, -2 AC)
Advancement:
(2)-Rage Power: Strength Surge
(2)-Uncanny Dodge
(3)-Feat: Power Attack
(3)-Trap Sense +1
(4)-Str +1 (18)
(4)-Rage Power: Renewed Vigor
(5)-Feat: Improved Bull Rush
(5)-Improved Uncanny Dodge
(6)-Rage Power: Knockback
(6)-Trap Sense +2
(7)-Feat: Extra Rage
(7)-DR 1/-
(8)-Str +1 (19)
(8)-Rage Power: Powerful Blow
(9)-Feat: Improved Critical (bastard sword)
(9)-Trap Sense +3
(10)-Rage Power: Clear Mind
(10)-DR 2/-
(11)-Feat: Vital Strike
(11)-Greater Rage (+6 Str, +6 Con, +3 Will, -2 AC)
(12)-Dex +1 (14)
(12)-Rage Power: Mighty Swing
(12)-Trap Sense +4
(13)-Feat: Strike Back
(13)-DR 3/-
(14)-Rage Power: Scent
(14)-Indomitable Will
(15)-Feat: Critical Focus
(15)-Trap Sense +5
(16)-Str +1 (20)
(16)-Rage Power: Increase Damage Reduction
(16)-DR 4/- (increased to 5/-)
(17)-Feat: Cleave
(17)-Tireless Rage
(18)-Rage Power: Superstition
(18)-Trap Sense +6
(19)-Feat: Improved Vital Strike
(19)-Dr 5/- (increased to 6/-)
(20)-Con +1 (15)
(20)-Rage Power: Moment of Clarity
(20)-Mighty Rage (+8 Str, +8 Con, +4 Will, -2 AC)
At level 20 with regular weapons
hp 205 (12+19d12 (avg 7)+60 including favored class bonus)
Fort +14, Ref +8, Will +7 (+7 morale bonus versus spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities while raging; reroll failed Will save 1/rage)
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.(30 ft. in armor)
Melee large bastard sword +24/+19/+14/+9 (2d8+7, 17-20/x2) including -2 for using oversized weapon
Ranged composite longbow (strength +5) +22/+17/+12/+7 (1d8+5, 20/x3; 110 ft.)
STATISTICS (15-point buy)
Str 20
Dex 14
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
Base Attack +20, CMB +25 (+27 bull rush), CMD 37 (39 bull rush)
I recently calculated the total treasure from RotR's Burnt Offerings adventure, assuming the players stripped down every goblin, and sold a decent pile of the loot and purchased a few items that would be avaliable in sandpoint.
They're built on the elite array, with both two traits and a free feat from the player's guide (I'm a generous guy). The loot distribution isn't totally even. Not by a long shot. Rather, they got their pick of the loot and I adjusted their share of the treasure accordingly. Still, some do a lot worse than others. I like to keep close to core, but I used the trait rules and ended up settling on the Tattooed sorcerer variant for Seoni.
Very minor spoilers will follow.
Here they are, four iconics ready for Skinsaw Murders:
Male human fighter 4
NG Medium humanoid
Init +7; Senses Perception +3
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DEFENSE
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 19; (+8 armor, +3 Dex, +1 shield)
hp 33 (4d10+8)
Fort +5, Ref +4, Will +1; +3 vs. fear
Defensive abilities fortified drinker, two weapon defense (+2 bonus to fight defensively), country born (immune to fatigue/exhaustion 1/day)
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 longsword +9 (1d8+7/19–20), gauntlet +7 (1d3+3)
Full Attack +1 longsword +7 (1d8+6/19–20) AND mwk shortsword +6 (1d6+3/19-20)
Ranged mwk. composite longbow +8 (1d8+3/x3)
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STATISTICS
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Str 16, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 10
Base Atk +4; CMB +7; CMD 20
Feats Country Born(b) Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Focus (longsword), Step Up, Double Slice, Weapon Specialisation (longsword)
Skills Climb +6, Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Perception +3, Profession (farmer) +3, Ride +5, Survival +2, Swim +4
Languages Common, Halfling
Traits courageous, fortified drinker (+2 to saves vs. mind-affecting effects for 1 hr. after imbibing alcohol)
Combat Gear potion of cure light wounds x2, potion of cure moderate wounds
Other Gear +1 longsword, mwk. shortsword, mwk. composite longbow (+4), +1 breastplate, amulet of natural armor, everburning torch, bottle of fine wine, tankard, backpack, bedroll, rations (1 wk.), whetstone, flint and steel, waterskin, rope (hemp), grappling hook, 5 pitons, sack (empty) 682gp, 7sp
I especially like the Fortified Drinker trait on him. There are plenty of opportunities to get sloshed on the job in Runelords, particularly in a certain someones wine cellar...
Female human tattooed sorcerer 4
Init +2; Senses Perception +4
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DEFENSE
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AC 19, touch 13, flat-footed 16; (+5 armor, +1 deflection, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 23 (4d6+8)
Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +7
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee quarterstaff -1 (1d6–1)
Ranged ray +4 touch
Special Attacks metamagic adept (2/day)
Spells Known (CL 4th; Concentration +10)
2nd (4/day) — scorching ray
1st (7/day; 6 remaining)—burning hands (DC 18), magic missile, mage armour, identify
0 (at will)—arcane mark, daze (DC15), detect magic, read magic, prestidigitation,, spark
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STATISTICS
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Str 8, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 18
Base Atk +2; CMB +1; CMD 13
Feats Alertness, Dodge, Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Spell Focus (Evocation), Varisian Tattoo
Skills Bluff +8, Climb +4, Fly +6, Intimidate +9, Knowledge (Arcana) +8, Knowledge (Local) +8, Sense Motive +9, Spellcraft +8,
Languages Common, Varisian
SQ arcane bloodline, familiar tattoo (lizard), bloodline tattoos, bloodline arcana (+1 DC to metamagic spells)
Traits world traveller (sense motive), focused mind
Combat Gear scrolls of sleep (DC 11), comprehend languages, minor image (DC 12), whispering wind, burning hands (DC 11; CL 3), and flaming sphere (DC 12), wands of shocking grasp (28 charges), magic missile (38 charges), silent image (DC 11; 5 charges), sihedron medallion (false life, free action, 1/day, gentle repose CL 5), potion of cure light wounds
Other Gear quarterstaff, dagger, spell component pouch, entertainer’s outfit, cloak of resistance +1, healers kit (10 uses), handy haversack, 430gp
Female elf rogue 4
CN Medium humanoid (elf)
Init +6; Senses Perception +10; low-light vision, trapfinding +1, trap spotter
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DEFENSE
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AC 17, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+3 armor, +4 Dex)
hp 36 (4d8+8)
Fort +3, Ref +8, Will +2; +2 vs. enchantments
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense +1
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OFFENSE
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee rapier +8 (1d6+1/18–20); OR
+1 returning dagger +7 (1d4+2), dagger +6 (1d4+1)
Ranged dagger +9 (1d4+2/19–20)
Special Attacks sneak attack +2d6,
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10
Base Atk +3; CMB +1; CMD 15
Feats City Born (Riddleport), Quick-Draw, Weapon Finesse, Two-Weapon Fighting
Skills Acrobatics +11, Bluff +7, Climb +5, Disable Device +11, Escape Artist +11, Perception +10, Sleight of Hand +11, Stealth +11, Swim +5,
Languages Common, Elven
SQ trapfinding +1, finesse rogue, trap spotter
Traits reactionary, forlorn
Combat Gear acid, thunderstone (DC 15, deafened 1 hour), oil (5), potion of cure light wounds
Other Gear +1 leather armor, +1 returning dagger, silver dagger, daggers (6), rapier, belt pouch, silk rope, grappling hook, hooded lantern, oil (5), rations (3), mwk. thieves tools, whetstone, 302gp
Female human cleric of Sarenrae 4
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init -1; Senses Perception +3
Aura good
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DEFENSE
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AC 15, touch 9, flat-footed 15 (+7 armor, –1 Dex)
hp 24 (4d8+1)
Fort +2, Ref +0, Will +8
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OFFENSE
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 flaming scimitar +5 (2d6+6/18-20)
Special Attacks channel positive energy (2d6, 2d6+4 vs. undead, DC 15, 4/day), flame of the dawnflower (2 fire damage on a critical hit w/ scimitar), rebuke death (heal 1d4+2, 6/day)
Cleric Spells Prepared (CL4th; Concentration +7):
2nd— consecrate, bull’s strength, heat metal (DC 15)*
1st—bless, divine favour, shield of faith, endure elements*
0 (at will)— create water, guidance, light, stabilize
* Domain spell; Domains Healing, Sun
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STATISTICS
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Str 14, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 14
Base Atk +3; CMB +5; CMD 14
Feats Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Turn Undead, Power Attack
Skills Diplomacy +9, Heal +10, Knowledge (religion) +7, Sense Motive +9
Languages Common, Kelish
SQ sun's blessing
Traits indomitable faith, flame of the dawnflower
Combat Gear holy water, potion of cure light wounds, potion of cure moderate wounds Other Gear mwk. chain mail, +1 flaming scimitar, waterskin, healer’s kit, belt pouch, cleric’s vestments, gold holy symbol worth 100gp, everburning torch, 24.5gp
And I'm with Dosgamer. This is a lot of work. I dont expect I'll be continuing. :P
Hope you folks enjoy em.