Quick firearms observation

[cibet44]

I posted this in the "thread that shall not be named" but it quickly got swallowed. I think it is a worthy discussion even if it's a short one.

Is there another mundane item in the game that ignores magic without requiring a special ability of some kind? Off the top of my head I can't think of any except the current incarnation of mundane firearms ignoring magic armor. This bothers me about firearms for both flavor and mechanical reasons.

Please explain why I am wrong or insane and do so with as many personal attacks or off topic rants as you feel necessary.

If you can't think of any I put some under the button for you:

Responses:

"Firearms are not part of the playtest so why are you talking about them? You disgrace your family when you do this."

"Firearms are already underpowered as it is leave them alone. You are a fool of the highest order."

"Firearms should be completely banned anyway because I hate them. I hate you as well."

"Your dumb and you're comment makes know cents. Here is the math that proves it."

[Melissa Litwin]

cibet44 wrote:

I posted this in the "thread that shall not be named" but it quickly got swallowed. I think it is a worthy discussion even if it's a short one.

Is there another mundane item in the game that ignores magic without requiring a special ability of some kind? Off the top of my head I can't think of any except the current incarnation of mundane firearms ignoring magic armor. This bothers me about firearms for both flavor and mechanical reasons.

Please explain why I am wrong or insane and do so with as many personal attacks or off topic rants as you feel necessary.

If you can't think of any I put some under the button for you:

** spoiler omitted **

I'll bite!

Actually, I would like some clarification first. What do you mean by ignores magic or magic armor? It ignores enhancement bonuses placed on armor and spells like mage armor, of course, but doesn't ignore rings of deflection or dusty rose prism ioun stones or anything else that improves touch AC, right?

If I am correct in my assessment of what you're saying, then anything that hits touch AC ignores armor. Any alchemical flasks like alchemists fire or acid flasks would fall under that category then, and those are mundane equipment. If I'm wrong, and you actually meant something else, feel free to correct my assumptions.

[cibet44]

Melissa Litwin wrote:

cibet44 wrote:

I posted this in the "thread that shall not be named" but it quickly got swallowed. I think it is a worthy discussion even if it's a short one.

Is there another mundane item in the game that ignores magic without requiring a special ability of some kind? Off the top of my head I can't think of any except the current incarnation of mundane firearms ignoring magic armor. This bothers me about firearms for both flavor and mechanical reasons.

Please explain why I am wrong or insane and do so with as many personal attacks or off topic rants as you feel necessary.

If you can't think of any I put some under the button for you:

** spoiler omitted **

I'll bite!

Actually, I would like some clarification first. What do you mean by ignores magic or magic armor? It ignores enhancement bonuses placed on armor and spells like mage armor, of course, but doesn't ignore rings of deflection or dusty rose prism ioun stones or anything else that improves touch AC, right?

If I am correct in my assessment of what you're saying, then anything that hits touch AC ignores armor. Any alchemical flasks like alchemists fire or acid flasks would fall under that category then, and those are mundane equipment. If I'm wrong, and you actually meant something else, feel free to correct my assumptions.

Yup you are basically correct in your assumptions and Alchemist Fire is a good example of a mundane item ignoring magical armor. I don't typically think of Alchemist Fire as a weapon although it certainly is.

So I guess this sets the precedent for Firearms ignoring magical armor. So be it!

Although your response was not even a little insulting. Please try to do better next time. :)

[AvalonXQ]

All armor bonuses are intentionally situational, and that is still true when your armor or shield is enchanted by magic. Another example is combat maneuvers; a level 1 commoner can completely ignore your +5 adamantine full plate when tripping you WITH HIS BARE HANDS!!!

[Abraham spalding]

Unstoppable Strike 19th level weapon master fighter ability

Pinpoint Targeting feat

Siding Axe Throw feat (can ignore shield bonus)

Combat Maneuvers and step up

Those are off the top of my head.

[cibet44]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Unstoppable Strike 19th level weapon master fighter ability

Pinpoint Targeting feat

Siding Axe Throw feat (can ignore shield bonus)

Combat Maneuvers and step up

Those are off the top of my head.

"without requiring a special ability of some kind" I think these are all special abilities. No matter, alchemist fire is the precedent for me.

[AvalonXQ]

cibet44 wrote:

"without requiring a special ability of some kind" I think these are all special abilities.

Combat maneuvers are not special abilities; anyone can do them.

[Abraham spalding]

cibet44 wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

Unstoppable Strike 19th level weapon master fighter ability

Pinpoint Targeting feat

Siding Axe Throw feat (can ignore shield bonus)

Combat Maneuvers and step up

Those are off the top of my head.

"without requiring a special ability of some kind" I think these are all special abilities. No matter, alchemist fire is the precedent for me.

Feats are not special abilities -- anyone can take them that meets the prerequisites -- from the fighter to the mage to the monster.

As such they are no more special abilities than the ability to have HP.

By your own standard no one can really use a firearm since it takes a special ability to do so effectively (two in fact): exotic weapon proficiency and rapid reload.

[BenignFacist]

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cibet44 wrote:

s there another mundane item in the game that ignores magic without requiring a special ability of some kind

A Net?

Non-proficient user with a net?

Um...

Love?

*shakes fist*

[Asphesteros]

cibet44 wrote:

Is there another mundane item in the game that ignores magic without requiring a special ability of some kind? Off the top of my head I can't think of any except the current incarnation of mundane firearms ignoring magic armor. This bothers me about firearms for both flavor and mechanical reasons.

I agree and concurred in that other thread as well:

Asphesteros wrote:

Historicaly, Cortez's breastplace could deflect a pistol shot. In modern times and modern period games, body armor can stop modern small arms fire. In a Sci-fi game, powered armor functions as armor. But they decided to make mundain ball and powder the equivelent of a magic deathray at close range, able to ignore even adamantine enchanted by the gods? IMO, not the best narrative or mechanical choice.

I think what happened is, they pulled from Westerns and Spigetti Western tropes when building the concept - In westerns guns are kind of like deathrays, and look at what they chose for the name of the gun class - Gunslinger. Iconic of westerns, not fantasy. ... but even there they forgot about A Fistful of Dollars, where he uses a iron/steel plate to cover his heart, stopping the bullets.

[BenignFacist]

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Asphesteros wrote:

... but even there they forgot about A Fistful of Dollars, where he uses a iron/steel plate to cover his heart, stopping the bullets.

..it was a circumstance bonus to AC!

*shakes fist*

[Asphesteros]

BenignFacist wrote:

..it was a circumstance bonus to AC!

LOL! Grant anyone wearing armor a circumstance bonus to AC vs. firearms based on type! Maybe that's the answer! Or maybe also spell books & amulets & wonderous items, like the tropes of how the guy's bible or badge or cigarette case stopped the bullet!

[Abraham spalding]

Asphesteros wrote:

BenignFacist wrote:

..it was a circumstance bonus to AC!

LOL! Grant anyone wearing armor a circumstance bonus to AC vs. firearms based on type! Maybe that's the answer! Or maybe also spell books & amulets & wonderous items, like the tropes of how the guy's bible or badge or cigarette case stopped the bullet!

You know as much as I hate it I love it as well...

Maybe simply allow for armor hardness?