Am I wrong in feeling like the gunsliger is the least customizable class of all?
Very limited weapon selection.
Every gunslinger of the same level has the same abilities as every other gunslinger.
Feat starved, with a very narrow range of needed feats.
I was disappointed to see that the Gunslinger kept the fixed abilities per level in round two. It really did need the discoveries style of abilities that Pendegast and others (myself included) discussed in round one. Just to make it interesting.
The gunslinger just feels dull, they only have a very narrow feat range to differentiate between each other. Otherwise they're the same.
But maybe I'm wrong, so I'm challenging people to post different effective gunslinger concepts (of say, 7th level). They don't have to be optimized but they do have to work. I want to see different types of Gunslingers that can be built using the current rules.
Am I wrong in feeling like the gunsliger is the least customizable class of all?
Very limited weapon selection.
Every gunslinger of the same level has the same abilities as every other gunslinger.
Feat starved, with a very narrow range of needed feats.
I was disappointed to see that the Gunslinger kept the fixed abilities per level in round two. It really did need the discoveries style of abilities that Pendegast and others (myself included) discussed in round one. Just to make it interesting.
The gunslinger just feels dull, they only have a very narrow feat range to differentiate between each other. Otherwise they're the same.
But maybe I'm wrong, so I'm challenging people to post different effective gunslinger concepts (of say, 7th level). They don't have to be optimized but they do have to work. I want to see different types of Gunslingers that can be built using the current rules.
I think stephens point is, because grit is limited different styles of play will create different gunslingers as some players will gravitate to different deeds to spend their grit on.
thus creating the in game feels of different gunslingers, on paper they are going to look similar.Level 7 is really tight, that gives a non human gunslinger 4 feats to work with? Methinks most of them are going to look the same either a musket build or a pistol build.
Am I wrong in feeling like the gunsliger is the least customizable class of all?
Very limited weapon selection.
Every gunslinger of the same level has the same abilities as every other gunslinger.
Feat starved, with a very narrow range of needed feats.
I was disappointed to see that the Gunslinger kept the fixed abilities per level in round two. It really did need the discoveries style of abilities that Pendegast and others (myself included) discussed in round one. Just to make it interesting.
The gunslinger just feels dull, they only have a very narrow feat range to differentiate between each other. Otherwise they're the same.
But maybe I'm wrong, so I'm challenging people to post different effective gunslinger concepts (of say, 7th level). They don't have to be optimized but they do have to work. I want to see different types of Gunslingers that can be built using the current rules.
I think stephens point is, because grit is limited different styles of play will create different gunslingers as some players will gravitate to different deeds to spend their grit on.
thus creating the in game feels of different gunslingers, on paper they are going to look similar.Level 7 is really tight, that gives a non human gunslinger 4 feats to work with? Methinks most of them are going to look the same either a musket build or a pistol build.
At what level should they be different? 11th? 12th? Many campaigns end around that level. The rest of the classes can be very different at level 1 (to one extent or another).
Fighter - gets to choose feats
Barbarian - gets to choose rage powers
Monk - gets to choose bonus feats, and what to spend their ki points on
Ranger - gets to choose fighting style, associated bonus feats, and hated foes
Cleric - gets to choose spells and domains
Druid - gets to choose compain vs domain, spells, and how best to use shapechanging
Wizard - gets to choose spells, school, familiar vs bonded object, occasional feats
Sorcerer - gets to choose spells, bloodline
Rogues - get rogue talents, and a crap ton of skill points to choose how to spend
That's just the base classes, the APG classes have an insane amount of choice (I'm looking at you alchemist).
The Gunslinger has the occasional bonus feat.
As for what Stephen says, it doesn't make the class any more interesting to build. Especially since you don't have all that many Grit points anyway. When someone asks you how your current gunslinger is different from the previous one, it's not very impressive to say "this one targets the torso, the last one targeted the head".
My point is the gunslinger appears to be limited to someone else's very narrow idea of what a gunslinger should be, as opposed to my idea of what I want to play.
You missed:
Paladin - gets to choose spells, Lay on Hands condition removals.
Alchemists - get to choose discoveries.
Witches - get to choose hexes.
Summoners - get to choose Eidolon? abilities, and spells.
Oracles - get to choose their thing...
...and so on...
So, yea, Gunslinger should be able to select stuff too. Although, they will probably just get to select what deeds they want to use at a given time from their the deeds they can access by level.
Think I may go with the L7 Dwarven Gunslinger with the spiked studded leather armor and alchemical loads in his shotgun... Give him Run, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Improved Disarm, with an eye toward picking up Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, and Improved and Greater Bull Rush further on down the line.
No one expects the dwarf to run 100' in one round to get behind cover.
No one expects the dwarf to knock you down, then shoot your prone face with a shotgun full of entangling death.
No one expects the gunslinger to catch bullets to reload his scattergun...
Think I may go with the L7 Dwarven Gunslinger with the spiked studded leather armor and alchemical loads in his shotgun... Give him Run, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Greater Trip, and Improved Disarm, with an eye toward picking up Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, Power Attack, and Improved and Greater Bull Rush further on down the line.
No one expects the dwarf to run 100' in one round to get behind cover.
No one expects the dwarf to knock you down, then shoot your prone face with a shotgun full of entangling death.
No one expects the gunslinger to catch bullets to reload his scattergun...
Bullets and pellets, unlike other ammunition is destroyed whether the attack hits or misses. There literally isn't anything left for your dwarf to catch. Also, I don't see how tripping is a good idea for a gunslinger. Prone targets are harder to hit with ranged attacks.
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No one expects the gunslinger to catch bullets to reload his scattergun...
Although that wouldn't work, I LOVE this idea.
I was also think of doing a Dwarf, but a slow steady approach with rifle(+1 distance, with far reaching sight), using targeting(with signature deed) to keep enemies down. Also thinking signature deed for pistol whip, could be handy. Rapid reload and alchemical cartridges to speed loading, point blank shot and far shoot to just ruin peoples day (400 feet range at -4 touch attacks). Kinda picturing a bounty hunter, maybe give him medium armor and a horse so he can actually approach while using targeting. Possibly even a hunting dog to help him track his targets.
I know its not optimized but it's different from all the dual wielding pistoleers everyone else is making.
- Purplefixers post -
Bullets and pellets, unlike other ammunition is destroyed whether the attack hits or misses. There literally isn't anything left for your dwarf to catch. Also, I don't see how tripping is a good idea for a gunslinger. Prone targets are harder to hit with ranged attacks.
Prone targets are flat-footed so it kinda balances out, and although it isn't RAW, any GM that invokes that rule in that specific situation (point blank standing over target) isn't worthy of the game. Don't forget there is a spirit to the rules.
Prone targets are flat-footed so it kinda balances out, and although it isn't RAW, any GM that invokes that rule in that specific situation (point blank standing over target) isn't worthy of the game. Don't forget there is a spirit to the rules.
1. Where does it say that prone targets are flat-footed? I didn't find it in the prone condition rules.
2. There is no reason why he shouldn't get his +4 bonus to AC. The rules explicitly states so.
Of course I can't stop you from house ruling stuff but you really should write this stuff down before you start playing. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't be happy if they dropped prone to avoid an attack and then the GM totally ignored the written rules.
Bullets and pellets, unlike other ammunition is destroyed whether the attack hits or misses. There literally isn't anything left for your dwarf to catch. Also, I don't see how tripping is a good idea for a gunslinger. Prone targets are harder to hit with ranged attacks.
The AC bonus is against ranged attacks, not ranged weapons. If he is firing the shotgun at melee range, it can be argued the AC bonus would not apply. The AC bonus is meant to represent a smaller target profile. It really should not be harder to hit someone with a crossbow bolt than a sword when you are standing over them. However, that is a RAW vs. RAI question.
[quote = the PRD] Prone: The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
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Prone targets are flat-footed so it kinda balances out, and although it isn't RAW, any GM that invokes that rule in that specific situation (point blank standing over target) isn't worthy of the game. Don't forget there is a spirit to the rules.1. Where does it say that prone targets are flat-footed? I didn't find it in the prone condition rules.
2. There is no reason why he shouldn't get his +4 bonus to AC. The rules explicitly states so.
Of course I can't stop you from house ruling stuff but you really should write this stuff down before you start playing. I'm pretty sure people wouldn't be happy if they dropped prone to avoid an attack and then the GM totally ignored the written rules.
1, I checked after reading your post and you are correct, my bad (although that just makes sense to me, your target is lying on the ground, but it isn't RAW so....)
2, I did state that it wasn't RAW when I made the comment. I thought the reason is pretty evident, your target is lying on his ass in the mud and you have a gun in his face. At least he gets an AoO (-4) before you blow his face off.
I am a RAI rather than a RAW GM so my opinion on things will reflect that.
Now we should probably try to not hijack this thread with yet another descent into the madness that is rules interpretation.
Someone let myself and/or Purplefixer know what they think of the character concepts we've thrown up. I think they'd actually make a good team.
Someone let myself and/or Purplefixer know what they think of the character concepts we've thrown up. I think they'd actually make a good team.
I love'em both. Different is what I was looking for. I don't know if the bullet catching dwarf will work once it's fully fleshed out, but it is a very unique idea.
I also like the bounty hunter on the horse idea. I could just picture him on his horse looming over someone he just nailed with with entangling shot, throwing down manicles and saying: "Put these on. Don't make me get off this horse."