I actually just started this tonight and the group actually liked the Crooked Kin and so did I. Have a Warforged Gunslinger who has a thing for children so the girl missing meant something to him. Plus they figure in like the movie The Bride.
So far my only problem is the players asked what evidence was presented to the court to put the creature on trial but there really isn't a nice listing of it. You have to find it out from asking the people for info but there has to be some form of records to work off of.
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My party just finished running HoH. I am thinking of skipping Wake of the Watcher all together and just increasing the PCs leveling speed and decreasing monster difficulty as needed for the last 2 modules. Cthulu is so overdone and last year ("oooo tenticles and fishy people, I feel my sanity slipping!"). Besides, as others have commented, it doesn't fit well or add much to the story line. Anyone have any thoughts on that (besides furtively arguing how cyclopean Cthulu is)?
Cutting WotW leave me with the issue of what to do with the Sausage Effigy. I am currently debating just replacing it with the Raven's Head mace and having the WW have stolen that. I can then give it to Vrood or one of his henchmen for the players to aquire in TotB. I might need to nerf the mace a bit and let it "grow in power" as time goes on. Not sure its purpose anyway, a stirrer? Other ideas?
Further, I like a bit of sandboxing. I also like getting players invested in the people and places they are "saving." HoH allowed for a lot of that, but now the PCs are off to a new town with all new people. Then another location, then another, etc.. They are also on a clock. I was thinking not only taking out WotW, but also the city of Caliphas. I still love the vampire thing, but I don't see any reason why I can't merge the write ups for Leipstad and Caliphas and just have the players return to Leipstad after Feldgrau.
That would allow me to have Adivian in Liepstad the whole time, leaving shortly before the PCs return in AaD. He could play a more visible role in TotB. He could attend the trial and begin an obsession of toying with the PCs, possibly even admitting to them with a cocky aire of untouchability, that he was behind the Harrowstone troubles.
Besides, as others have commented, it doesn't fit well or add much to the story line. Anyone have any thoughts on that (besides furtively arguing how cyclopean Cthulu is)?
The whole idea of Carrion Crown is the Grand Tour of Ustalav and its Monstrosities. And all are covered - ghosts, golems, werewolves, vampires, liches. And, of course, Cthulhu horrors.
And because of that, every chapter suffers from loose connection to previous and the next one. Yes, the overall story and motivation exists - catch the Whispering Way, but sometimes their influence isn't keenly felt and is added as an afterthought.
So, in Wake of the Watcher, that's more prevalent than in the other chapters. And despite that, my players loved it. I was prepared for the fact that they may not enjoy as much and disassociation of the story with the rest of the AP will be a turn-off to them, and couldn't wait to reach Ashes of Dawn (my personal favorite), but in fact, they reall enjoyed it. They still dread the thought of having to roll another will save for insanity and monsters were quite good. Not to mention the big bad artifact weapon that one of them got.
So, it *is* a filler chapter, but a very good one. And because of that, you shouldn't skip over it.
possibly even admitting to them with a cocky aire of untouchability, that he was behind the Harrowstone troubles.
That would kinda defeat the purpose of the whole secret thing the Whispering Way has going on.
Also:
*Cthulhu
*Seasage Effigy
*Lepidstadt
*Adivion
So my players have started in on TotB and seem to enjoy it. I've decided to try the intelligent Beast method as it is both more fun for me and more interesting to my players (they wouldn't take a child beast very seriously). This way he's more sullen and fatalistic.
One player is a wizard and he decided to look into crafting flesh golems when he saw the book in Ravengro. So when they got to the abandoned boneyard and found 6 missing graves, he happily informed everyone that someone must be making more flesh golems seeing as you need 6 corpses to do so. Also that must be what the face is for... and the extract of dark vision... because, you know, material components or something.
They have absolutely no idea how to show the beast wasn't over at the swamp other than his word. They think it was either someone using the beast to gather bodies to make more beasts, or a sibling of the beast being used to do so. At best they will only be able to point out the lack of a scar on the Beast's shoulder.
I think the best part of this adventure path is watching one's player group make the wildest and most tenuous of connections and then run with them! It is quite funny and at times I have to try hard not to be like "roll a wisdom check; congrats, you realize what you said doesn't make any sense" (perhaps with slightly less snark).
Can't wait to see what they do with the second day's trial.
Also - Having a bard with oratory (perform in place of diplomacy) and an inquisitor is going to make the first half go by with not too much trouble, I think.
A question about the Erinyes trap. The book indicates she flies above the gorge and fires arrows at those on the bridge. Is that all she does? That is, is that the extent of her instructions, such that she will not use other tactics (such as her rope entangle ability) or pursue or attack the PCs if they retreat off the bridge? If she does pursue, she could be really deadly. 11 rounds would probably be enough time to hunt down and kill all the PCs. I'm inclined to say that if the PCs retreat into the alchemy lab and hide there, she will cease her attack once they are out of site, and just hover in the air ready to attack for the remainder of the summoning period.
A question about the Erinyes trap. ..
Depends...My PC's (especially the Pally) are a pain in the $$$ to damage, so I had her herass them a lot. Moving in an then using her Teletort to get out.
If your group is a bit smaller, I would have her flying around and stick Arrows into everythng that moves. I still belive that that and the Wirlwind are Encounters that should teach the PC's the value of a tactical retreat (RUN!) so they dont move headlong into the final boss.
As for the Alcamist building...just remember its mostly blown up...
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A question about the Erinyes trap. The book indicates she flies above the gorge and fires arrows at those on the bridge. Is that all she does? That is, is that the extent of her instructions, such that she will not use other tactics (such as her rope entangle ability) or pursue or attack the PCs if they retreat off the bridge? If she does pursue, she could be really deadly. 11 rounds would probably be enough time to hunt down and kill all the PCs. I'm inclined to say that if the PCs retreat into the alchemy lab and hide there, she will cease her attack once they are out of site, and just hover in the air ready to attack for the remainder of the summoning period.
Seeing as that trap, unlike the Elemental trap, was put there by the Whispering Way, I am inclined to think her instructions are to "Kill, KILL my pretty!" After all, they are all about eliminating the witnesses.
I see the logic that her instructions would be to kill, but I think there is a good likelihood of TPK in 11 rounds. I'm not even sure the PCs could hide well enough even if they made it all the way back to the manor.
You all reminded me of a question about the air elemental. There have been references to the air elemental pushing PCs off the bridge, but I didn't see in the stats for the air elemental or the whirlwind attack that it results in blowback. Are you thinking that the whirlwind picks up PCs and then moves off to the side and drops them over the water?
Finally, has anyone calculated the falling damage for falling off each of the respective bridges? And if they survive they need to make a swim check, right. And if they fail the swim check they... drown?
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...Are you thinking that the whirlwind picks up PCs and then moves off to the side and drops them over the water?
YEs excatly. See Bestiary 1 - page 120 (Huge Air elemental) and 306 (Whirlwind attack)
Finally, has anyone calculated the falling damage for falling off each of the respective bridges? And if they survive they need to make a swim check, right. And if they fail the swim check they... drown?
In my TotB GM Material I summed up all the stuff about falling into water.
Check alsoSwiming: Core-108 (Armor!!), Core-432
Drowning: Core-445
Thanks! I downloaded that stuff but haven’t read it all over closely yet. As for falling damage, it looks like it is 6d6 lethal damage for even the shortest, 100 foot fall. Probably enough to kill. And if they survive there is the swimming issue. Some hero points may be used up here (if they still have them left).
I should add that one consideration of mine is that the party -- 4 characters, 15 point build PCs -- are pretty un-maximized. The most knowledgeable player is playing a weak, rapier using rogue. The cleric is quite inexperienced in the Pathfinder system. There is a very traditional wizard, with all the traditional wizardly weaknesses. And the main fighter is a rather oddly built barbarian. I don’t really want to punish them for elevating roleplaying over a maximized build, so I’m trying to be thoughtful about these encounters.
Thanks!
You'r welcome. Check for updates. I updated some minor stuff without spaming the whole comunity... ;)
....I don’t really want to punish them for elevating roleplaying over a maximized build, so I’m trying to be thoughtful about these encounters.
In that case I would make the bridge to the AirElemental WAY narrower put the dog eitehr inside G3 or replace the lonly troll with it. And then implement the idea into the character that it is VERY dangerous to cross the bridge => Rope up to cross. That way we are talking about a Bungy Jump if the AirElemental drops them.
My Bard got picked up and pushed off. I allowed for an Acrobatic to reduce falling damage (Cliff divers survie too..so there must be a trick to that). Also i reduced the damage form falling abit as they are jumping into white Water (less surface tention..yes we are all SUPER Sience nerds playing :) ).
Hope that help. Else shoot me a mail, I think we are in the same Timezone (Me: Melbourne)
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Voomer, it sounds like we are on opposite ends of the spectrum. My players have steamrolled some of the encounters so far as they are pretty good at maximizing their PCs. We used a 20 point buy as well. They also are kind of looking forward to trying some new builds if a character dies, so I am going for blood with the Erinyes. It's time they learned a little respect!
I would say with your group, you might want to consider toning down the Erinyes with a lower CR encounter. You could say she just guards the bridge, but that doesn't seem to make sense, and I think it's bad practice to cripple an encounter by giving an otherwise intelligent creature poor tactics.
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Thanks! I downloaded that stuff but haven’t read it all over closely yet. As for falling damage, it looks like it is 6d6 lethal damage for even the shortest, 100 foot fall. Probably enough to kill. And if they survive there is the swimming issue. Some hero points may be used up here (if they still have them left).
I should add that one consideration of mine is that the party -- 4 characters, 15 point build PCs -- are pretty un-maximized. The most knowledgeable player is playing a weak, rapier using rogue. The cleric is quite inexperienced in the Pathfinder system. There is a very traditional wizard, with all the traditional wizardly weaknesses. And the main fighter is a rather oddly built barbarian. I don’t really want to punish them for elevating roleplaying over a maximized build, so I’m trying to be thoughtful about these encounters.
I was in a similar position, Voomer. My party is only 3 PCs: a witch, a knifemaster rogue, and a monk. There was no frickin' way they could have killed that erinyes.
So after she'd pegged the monk with arrows for a couple rounds on the bridge (he's a crusader for Iomedae with a facial tattoo of her symbol, definitely devil-bait), and then got them all with an Unholy Blight when they clustered together, they fled into the museum.
At this point, rather than TPK'ing them with the erinyes plus the Faceless Guardian, I had her announce, "Auren Vrood, I have fulfilled the terms of our contract!" and disappear. I figure he just told her to guard the bridge, and so once they were off the bridge she called it good. Kinda sloppy of Mr. Vrood, really, but there you go.
But now they're worrying about who this Auren Vrood guy is, and how he must be pretty powerful to make a contract with such a bad ass devil. It's working out great!
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I'm planning on throwing in a few more touches too, to tie this in with Broken Moon a little bit.
In the upstairs storage room, they're going to find some strange glowing caterpillars that will matter a lot once they get to the Stairs of the Moon.
Also, they're going to find a big, empty crate labeled "Tyrannosaurus Rex Skeleton". Oh, they're gonna be worried. :) But it turns out that Vrood took the Multiplying T-Rex Skeleton with him to Feldgrau, and that's where they're going to fight it. Oh, my, I can't wait!
Thanks for the fabulous ideas. I will definitely use some of them.
Further on in the module, unless I’m mistaken, the PCs can avoid much of the Drowned Menagerie by climbing up the walls in one of the containment chambers (in, for example, the Vargouilles or Basilisk room) and busting out one of the high doors. If they are fortunate enough to go out the Northern door in one of those rooms it would lead them right to the corridor to the tower. Am I understanding that these are enclosed corridors, so if they go out the wrong high door they could not see or move (by somehow jumping the 10 feet) to the main corridor that leads to the tower? Am I missing something? Is there some reason they need to go through the whole menagerie (other than treasure or XP?)? In fact, why couldn’t they skirt the whole building altogether and climb up to the bridge on the other side of the building, which is not enclosed? How did all of this go in your games?
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Yeah, I an not exactly sure how they are supposed to get up the walls without magic. I mean, they could climb them, but then how do they break down a door whilst clinging to a wall?
I guess the other reason to look through the menagerie is they don't know where Corarmarc is. The WW did wall up his guards in a couple of places, so maybe emphasizing those encounters and perhaps even strewing a few belongings of the count throughout the place would encourage them to explore every room.
...and the Ring of Ram (from the Mummy) make short work of the doors.
Also, there should be chunks of the walkway attached to the walls near the high doors, so it isn't as if they need to break down the doors while literally hanging on the walls.
Did your parties search the whole menagerie? It seems once the nature of it becomes clear it is pretty tempting to skip...
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If they kept the rope of climbing from Harrowstone Prison, it's pretty easy to get up the walls. That's what my party did.
I chuckled a little evil laugh to myself when they sold the rope of climbing.
The ring of the will help. I guess I didn't picture ledges left over, as I was imagining that the walkways were metal attached to stone, and that the WW had just destroyed the bolts or something.
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My guys skipped some of the menagerie, specifically the fungus room and the aquatic basilik. Which makes sense to me, because once you open the doors to those rooms there pretty much no rational reason to go inside.
They have a witch who can fly, so she just went up and opened the doors up top, and then the others used their rope of climbing to get up with her (in the vargouille room, after they killed those guys).
I redesigned the fourth room, removing the Black Pudding and focusing on the wights.
What really gave them trouble was the leech swarm. I only did one instead of two swarms, otherwise they would have been really screwed. As it was, the monk and rogue retreated outside the building, while the witch used her prehensile hair to hold herself up above the water, and then cast frost fall down onto them twice. That was enough to do them in, but it used up pretty much all of her big damage for the day.
So now they've cleared the menagerie and are ready for the final section in the lightning tower. It's gonna be dangerous...
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If they kept the rope of climbing from Harrowstone Prison, it's pretty easy to get up the walls. That's what my party did.I chuckled a little evil laugh to myself when they sold the rope of climbing.
A rope of climbing is one of the most useful magic items in the game. I'm amazed that your players would sell one that they got for free! So yes, by all means punish them. :)
How did your PCs get to the Bondslave Thrall without first getting into a fight with the Aberrant Promethean, since the Aberrant waits at the top of the tower, which is also the way to get to the roof. It seems like sneaking past the Aberrant would be impossible, especially since accessing the roof would involve retracting the hole in the roof.
The most obvious alternative seems to be to scale the tower on the outside, to get up to the roof. Would this have to be done from the ground, or are there big enough windows in the room where Waxwood is?
Am I missing something? If the players encounter the Aberrant first, then there is a good chance they never manage to get to the Bondslave Thrall, or at least not in time for the Beast to arrive in time.
How did your PCs get to the Bondslave Thrall without first getting into a fight with the Aberrant Promethean,.....
Or fly up, or bypass with invisibility or Stealth past, or...
The Wiz in my group just flue up there and then took his sweet time to work the thrall out while the others were waiting just one level down.
Flight or climbing, yes. But I don't see how invisibility or stealth would do it, given that the party needs to open up the panel in the ceiling right next to the Aberrant (who is hanging by the ceiling in his webs) in order to get to the roof from the inside.
Hight stealth + distraction (e.g. a flashbang or a thunderstone going off on the other side of the room) a Rouge Lv7 can do that. I would alow it as a GM as I would make it VERY clear to the PC's that they wouldnt like to facte THAT alone....
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Use the same stats at the one outside of Vorkstag and Grine's.That was the one I was referring to actually. It has the abilities at the end but no skills or anything like that. Or am I missing something basic?
A flesh golem hound (like a normal flesh golem) does not have an Intelligence score. As a result, it does not have any skills or feats. You'll notice the normal flesh golem in the Bestiary does not have skills or feats either. :)
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Question - The Huge Air Elemental trap needs to be switched off inside the Great Hall to open the door safely. However, a Disable Device DC is also listed. Can this trap on the door be detected and disarmed without using the switch bypass? I'm inclined to say no, but I was just curious what you guys did.
Question - The Huge Air Elemental trap needs to be switched off inside the Great Hall to open the door safely. However, a Disable Device DC is also listed. Can this trap on the door be detected and disarmed without using the switch bypass? I'm inclined to say no, but I was just curious what you guys did.
For sure....else How would someone get back inside their own Schloss?
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Question - The Huge Air Elemental trap needs to be switched off inside the Great Hall to open the door safely. However, a Disable Device DC is also listed. Can this trap on the door be detected and disarmed without using the switch bypass? I'm inclined to say no, but I was just curious what you guys did.
A PC can detect and disarm the trap from outside, as normal for any trap. The bypass switch is there so the unseen servant or anyone inside the castle can disarm the trap easily.
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My players are making a big deal of the Beast's injuries, and even pointed out in court that a Flesh Golem is made of dead parts and doesn't have a blood circuit, so it can't have been the creature the swampers saw, that was hurt by the gator and whose blood tainted the burial ground.
I thought this was clever, and considered it correct, but is it really?
One of their theories is that it might be the Beast committing the crimes, but while under someone's control. They've been really interested in its supposed creator, Dr. Henri Moritz, and even assume he might be undead and still giving it orders - and that he, being undead, might be in league with the WW. I'm starting to like this idea better than the real premise.
Anyway, because of this, they think it possible the Beast was in Morast and got attacked by the gator, but its master healed it. They've been thinking a lot about what it would take to heal a flesh golem, and have been watching the wounds it got from the guards torturing it carefully. And I'm at a loss there. I know Flesh Golems are immune to spells that allow SR, but that electrical damage heals them. Does this apply to the Beast too? And do flesh golems, does the Beast, regain HP naturally, just over time?
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I'm looking at the map for the final encounter. What the devil are those "F"s that are on each level of the final map? I can find no notation for them.
An "F" in a boc marks the location of a trap door in the Floor. Similarly, a "C" in a box marks the location of a trap door in the ceiling, but these are not shown on the map because the ladders to the trap doors are shown instead.
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My version of the beast used to get healed by being told to hang out on tower roofs in thunderstorms (The phrase "go hug a lightning rod" was probably uttered once or twice in frustration). His father actually explained the principle well enough to him at one point that now he does the same thing with tall trees and abandoned towers for any natural healing he may need. So it may take a long time, and some luck, but eventually he can heal. It also provides cool excuses for stories about the beast menacing people since he actually DOES perch on the ruins of tall towers as lightning flashes behind him.
I'm having trouble pinning something down, how does the Church of Pharasma view flesh golems and/or this particular flesh golem? I looked all through the information provided in TotB, but didn't find anything about flesh golems. Any insight would be helpful as I have a preist of Phrasma in my party and I don't want him to spend the entire module trying to get the golem killed.
Flesh golems aren't actually undead and so aren't on the "MUST KILL" list. It's still really tacky to make one (as you shouldn't disturb the dead), but it doesn't interrupt a soul's journey into the afterlife.
Also, my party just finished up at Morast and captured a live blood caiman to bring in as evidence for the proposition that the blood caimans clearly aren't big enough to drag the Beast underwater. Also, they're looking forward to making Acting Sergeant Dun take custody of the thing.
This should be amusing.
New DM here loving this adventure i just wanted to ask - Schloss Caromarc If my PC's find the guards uniform and mend it - do they still get the XP from the trap/guards they bypass?
And also did anyone else have trouble with their PC's not wanting to break in to Vorkstag and Grimes? and in doing so miss a lot of loot/clues?
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New DM here loving this adventure i just wanted to ask - Schloss Caromarc If my PC's find the guards uniform and mend it - do they still get the XP from the trap/guards they bypass?
And also did anyone else have trouble with their PC's not wanting to break in to Vorkstag and Grimes? and in doing so miss a lot of loot/clues?
I'd say sure, give 'em the XP, unless you think they're getting over-leveled.
As to reluctance to go after V & G -- nope...but I gave 'em a few little pushes. They found a discarded skin in an alley after the courthouse riot. Turns out Vorkstag was whipping the crowd up.
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Does anyone else think the phase spider at the start of TOTB was an overly tough adversary for a group of 4 4th level adventurers? Maybe both me and the players were missing something, but the spider would have killed the whole party if I had not given the players attacks of opportunity as the spider phased out (under RAW, there should be no AOO because it is a supernatural ability). The party's readied attacks could only go so far against an opponent who pretty much hit every time for significant damage plus a poison with a DC 18, requiring two consecutive saves to cure. Plus, the poison lasts 8 rounds and, as I read the rules, if the spider bites the same victim again the duration is increased to 12 total rounds (I don't recall if subsequent bites stack too). I think the CON damage alone would have killed the whole party before they took down the spider's HP to even 50% with readied attacks. Any thoughts?