I first heard about this product when someone asked for a pure dungeon crawl. According to some it is supposed to be really good, but I can't get any details.
Is there a plot? How hard is a boss fight compared to SCAP or AoW?
Any other advice is useful also.
The plot is very involved and complex and closely tied to the plot of Greg Vaughan's Slumbering Tsar campaign, though you don't actually need the other to run this one, and vice versa. I can't discuss "the boss fight" as I never ran this adventure, assuming there is a single boss fight, which I very much doubt. (I only own parts one and two)
I do recall this is the adventure in which the DM really does need to say to his players at the start, "do not go down the well."
We haven't made it to the boss fight yet but my group is currently playing through Rappan Athuk. There is a "plot" in that your trying to prevent the rise of orcus, but not much beyond that that i've seen. So far its been a mostly tedious sludge of combat after combat. It has had its bright spots and some fun encounters though I really don't see the appeal to it. I like dungeon crawls as much as the next guy but this one seems never ending.
We've only gotten to 10th level so far but my opinion of it so far is that if your a roll player who likes optimized characters and lots of combat go for it. If your a role player and you like the out of combat interactions and what your able to do in between adventures take a pass on it unless you intend to break it up into many smaller dungeons
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Oh, true, from a PC's point of view it probably becomes something like "Stop the Big Bad". Subplots include, "kill the monsters and take their treasure." This is a massive dungeon after all.
The whole point of Rappan Athuk, it seemed to me, was to utterly destroy any adventuring party that attempted to enter it. It can wear a party and the players down by its sheer size and difficulty. So be aware of what your players like in terms of gaming style. This one might not be for them.
But, there are links to the later adventure I mentioned and they share a history.
The plot is extremely basic: stop the rise of Orcus. It's a dungeon crawl in the purest sense of stringing together a series of encounters on a map. I found it derivative and uninspiring. I wouldn't put it anywhere near the level of SCAP, AoW or any other Paizo AP as far as presentation, plot or encounters. If you consider the AP's to be "A" module material, then I'd give Rappan Athuk a "C-".
I would recommend this dungeon be run on medium or slow exp chart. Because in 3.5 near the end parties where epic if they cleared everything. Also as a DM for this modules place it within a week or two of a major city with a decent sized temple. That temple is going to see a lot of use.
agreed about the mostly uninspiring. It also gets old constantly writing up new characters. I tend to put quite a lot of thought and work into my characters both in concept and background and with only a few exceptions like to play the same ones for the duration of an adventure. With Rappan Athuk we're all on our 2nd characters at least and some of us are on our 5th and this is only at 10th level. Some of this is due to the overall lethality of the dungeon, others is poor dungeon design (which also contributes to the lethality). Frequently to descend you must first defeat one level, then go back up to a previous level fight your way past a challenge to find the way to another. All too often you run into something far beyond what you should way too early, including a monster that we ran into at 3rd level with epic DR.
I think most players that rave about this AP are ones that ran it early in their gaming experience and they have nostalgia for it. For our group we're starting to hate the name and have really only kept going because we like the DM. The only bright side of it so far is that its given me the chance to try out some concepts that I probably never would have run in a more role play type enviroment.
To be fair the dungeon is quite specifically designed for a site based style of play. It is a dungeon crawl in the sense that it all takes place in a massive dungeon. It's not a plot driven adventure path.
All too often you run into something far beyond what you should way too early, including a monster that we ran into at 3rd level with epic DR.
Personally I find this one of the best features of the module. I know what encounter you're talking about and yes it is not one the PC's can "win". One of the things I hate about the modern version of the game is this idea that the player's will only encounter CR appropriate beasties and to be able to predict in advance exactly how much treasure they are going to get because it is in the rules.
I think players having to think very hard about how to withdraw from an encounter which totally outclasses them just does not happen enough anymore. Events like this make my imaginary world seem more real to me.
I ran RA in a 3.0/3.5 campaign by attaching specific player goals to elements within the dungeon. It was a part of the overall campaign, not THE point of the campaign.
My party never got near the end in for 5 years of playing. I don't think the designer's players ever finished the dungeon in his own 1st ed game.
As others have said, I loved it because there were elements of extreme danger and challenge on every level.
One of my favorite encounters was ...
To be fair the dungeon is quite specifically designed for a site based style of play. It is a dungeon crawl in the sense that it all takes place in a massive dungeon. It's not a plot driven adventure path.
All too often you run into something far beyond what you should way too early, including a monster that we ran into at 3rd level with epic DR.Personally I find this one of the best features of the module. I know what encounter you're talking about and yes it is not one the PC's can "win". One of the things I hate about the modern version of the game is this idea that the player's will only encounter CR appropriate beasties and to be able to predict in advance exactly how much treasure they are going to get because it is in the rules.
I think players having to think very hard about how to withdraw from an encounter which totally outclasses them just does not happen enough anymore. Events like this make my imaginary world seem more real to me.
Exactly, and to the player that questions, "How are we supposed to beat that?" My answer would be, "You aren't supposed to, run away." Those old style modules teach you to play with caution and always have an exit strategy if it hits the fan. This is why you can't use modules like these with certain players. My players are used to such abuse, so they are wary. Plus they welcome challenges.
Honestly I don't have a problem with a challenging encounter, or even occasionally an encounter that you really shouldn't be fighting at all if you have any marbles in your head. The problem I have with this adventure is its NOT an occasional thing, it happens quite frequently and even when we have withdrawn (usually on round 2 after we realize we're overmatched) we still often lose a party member or two. I don't mind an encounter that makes you think. I don't mind an encounter that makes you plan. But encounters that are designed to do nothing but wipe the party are frustrating.
If theres groups out there that like this AP, good for them, but at least with out group the only real fun we've been having is between sessions writing up characters. As to if this is the fault of the players, the adventure, or the DM (or some combination of all 3) I can't say but theres my thoughts on it. I can say that this is the first Adventure our group has ever run/played and been thoroughly disenchanted with it. Obviously others experience may vary.
Honestly I don't have a problem with a challenging encounter, or even occasionally an encounter that you really shouldn't be fighting at all if you have any marbles in your head. The problem I have with this adventure is its NOT an occasional thing, it happens quite frequently and even when we have withdrawn (usually on round 2 after we realize we're overmatched) we still often lose a party member or two. I don't mind an encounter that makes you think. I don't mind an encounter that makes you plan. But encounters that are designed to do nothing but wipe the party are frustrating.
If theres groups out there that like this AP, good for them, but at least with out group the only real fun we've been having is between sessions writing up characters. As to if this is the fault of the players, the adventure, or the DM (or some combination of all 3) I can't say but theres my thoughts on it. I can say that this is the first Adventure our group has ever run/played and been thoroughly disenchanted with it. Obviously others experience may vary.
I do understand what you are saying. I think as a player I would agree that this kind of thing gets tiresome.
So as DM I would want to mix it up with plenty of other things, different side treks with role play interactions that this dungeon delve does not allow as easily, plenty of down time for crafting things the party needs, and above all, an actual reason for the party to be there. This may (and probably should) not be a single thing. Depending on your players, you may need several different hooks for them to want to be there.
I happen to like the somewhat open-ended nature of this as you can insert your own convoluted plot lines within it. Which is what I meant in my response to the OP, when I said the plot is very complex... I was thinking when I wrote it what MY plot lines are in my head. I have to be honest I have not read my old parts one and two of Rappan Athuk in 10 years or so (yes I have the 3E version). But as I am familiar with the links to Slumbering Tsar I have my own thoughts on how Rappan Athuk fits in with my plans for that massive adventure. I likely won't run either dungeon all the way through, for the reasons of player burn out as it sounds like is happening with you and your group.
We went in thinking it would be fun, and we indeed DID have fun for the first couple of levels but its quickly becoming monotonous. If we had more down time, encounters other than combat,combat,combat or a reason to be there other than just ZOMG! Orcus might be awakening! we might be having more fun I think.
The one player who IS having a decently good time is brand new to gaming so even the dungeon crawl is new to him, he agrees though that he had more fun in the Council of Thieves AP, and now the Rise of the Runelords AP we run in alternating sessions.
For now I'm hoping it gets better, if it wasn't for the fact that the game is hosted at my place I'd likely have dropped from the sessions we play Rappan Athuk. As it was we didn't even get a chance to really sell/buy gear until we pooled enough stuff to pay for an item to let us teleport once per day
We went in thinking it would be fun, and we indeed DID have fun for the first couple of levels but its quickly becoming monotonous. If we had more down time, encounters other than combat,combat,combat or a reason to be there other than just ZOMG! Orcus might be awakening! we might be having more fun I think.
The one player who IS having a decently good time is brand new to gaming so even the dungeon crawl is new to him, he agrees though that he had more fun in the Council of Thieves AP, and now the Rise of the Runelords AP we run in alternating sessions.
For now I'm hoping it gets better, if it wasn't for the fact that the game is hosted at my place I'd likely have dropped from the sessions we play Rappan Athuk. As it was we didn't even get a chance to really sell/buy gear until we pooled enough stuff to pay for an item to let us teleport once per day
Thanks for all the information guys. I think it takes a certain type of group to want to play through this from the information I am getting.
I think that it's important to remember that Rappan Athuk isn't a plot-based adventure path in any sense of the word. It was also never meant to be done in one go, but delving, going back to town, having an adventure, going back, and so on. It's a giant deadly dungeon and non-apologetically so.
If you're looking for a plot-driven dungeon from the same authors, I'd suggest The Tomb of Abysthor.
Yeah, the lethality of Rappan Athuk has been well-attested to, but I'd just like to add one statistic: The very first trap is a potential TPK!
|
As been mentioned it is a very old school dungeon crawl design. If the PC's are not on their toes and careful they will die a lot. Even if they are they will die sometimes. The dungeon really stresses it is dangerous, you need to be smart and know when to run away aspect of old school thought.
From a PC point of view the plot is pretty simple. From the GM point of view the main plot is simple but there is a number of sub plots going on in the mega dungeon.
I have the whole thing but have not cracked it open for a few years now. I got the original when it was 3 different adventures and ran it when it first came out.
My Sunday group is getting ready to go into this kill fest, but as it says on the back on the box I am killer DM #575. They know from experience how lethal that Necromancer modules can be, there have been about 6 player deaths so far just from tomb of Absythor.
Greetings, brother. ;-)
To be fair the dungeon is quite specifically designed for a site based style of play. It is a dungeon crawl in the sense that it all takes place in a massive dungeon. It's not a plot driven adventure path.
All too often you run into something far beyond what you should way too early, including a monster that we ran into at 3rd level with epic DR.Personally I find this one of the best features of the module. I know what encounter you're talking about and yes it is not one the PC's can "win". One of the things I hate about the modern version of the game is this idea that the player's will only encounter CR appropriate beasties and to be able to predict in advance exactly how much treasure they are going to get because it is in the rules.
I think players having to think very hard about how to withdraw from an encounter which totally outclasses them just does not happen enough anymore. Events like this make my imaginary world seem more real to me.
Yes. Ageed to all. " No plan survives contact with the enemy"
(party) we are suposed to get xwz treasure and xyz xp for this encounter
Boo hoo.
(party) we can craft any item in the book.
(party) the rules said we can do this.
(Party) we never run away.
(party) all merchants Have all the components/raw materials/magic Items
/at cost and buy all out loot at normal costs, after all, we are the party.
(party) we are not subjected to adverse weather/we never get hungy/thirsty. and never get tired.
(party) everytown has Ye auld Walmart to suport our party everywere and in every location next door to encounters.
BAHHHH!!!
Thats why I really love this Dungeon, and made a whole campaign out of it. It took centuries to make Rome a super-power. PC's need to tame the wilderness of the Dungeons near by towns to develope the supply base they want. Not to mention, rivals(political/monitary.
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
My two cents...
Rappan Ahtuk is a huge sandbox. As are many modules set in the lost lands.
My group got to the third level of the main dungeon and got teleported out.
They are in Bard's Gate and exploring a local dungeon there. Trying to recover a priest who disappeared.
While in Bard's Gate they have been exposed to several other possible adventures to go on.
The point is they are deciding where they will go, I am not driving them in any way. They will eventually decide to go back to Rappan Ahtuk or they will follow one of the other threads they have pulled on.
Bill is an old school player and DM of D&D. He runs his games in OD&D. The industry has evolved over decades. The early days of D&D were more about exploration than a plot driven save the cheerleader, save the world kind of thing, which is more of an AP thing that is totally plot driven.
As someone who started playing in the 80's, I like the old school, Keep on the Borderlands, Lost City, Tomb of Horrors kind of play, and Bill brings all of that to the table.
In the old days the game was more lethal.
There was fear in the characters, caution. They did not rush in but walked forward with their 10 foot pole tapping the floor. They checked for traps everywhere.
The had puzzles to solve.
They often had to run in terror from something so horrible they knew they were about to die.
It is all about the exploration.
If a present day DM wants to run this dungeon, have them bring a second character, warn them they may go from rats to something too difficult to handle and let then wander where ever they want to go. Do not lock them in to the dungeon. Have other places to go, other things to do.
Get all of the current Lost Lands products and create a whole world of places to go.
While my group was still getting initiated into the Mouth of Doom I gave them rumors of Castle Caelean (sp) from RA Expansions, a Gnoll encampment near Zelkor's Ferry, several bandit camps, A "giant frog creature" in the swamp across the river, a nearby temple, and a possible journey to Endhome near The Lost City of Barakus. Their main complaint was "too many choices". Now they are near to finishing MoD so I ask where are they going next.
As Shem said it is a very large sandbox to play in and can get overwhelming for a GM and for players. But let them go where they wish just ask ahead of time so you can prepare.
They tell me they are enjoying the game even with 2 PC deaths and several near death experiences. They are learning about encounters they should run away from too. Apparently they want to clear out the Gnoll encampment next. Then possibly the castle. They have built a lodge in Zelkor's Ferry but want a better base of operation.
If you are signed up to the Frog God Games daily deals, you can get the PDF of Rappan Athuk reloaded today for just $5. It is a mega-dungeon with only a basic plot (as mentioned above) and it is unashamedly old school.
Well that is the funny thing with this necro'd thread, it really is about Reloadded & not the new PF/S&W version.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One of the best things about RA is its modularity. You can use bits and pieces for a portion of an adventure or let the PC's use it as it's own sandbox. What's great is that it's large enough that it is it's own sandbox!
That being said - it is very much old school. There are places where the structure of the PF game breaks down a bit and that old school "one troll in this encounter, 2 liches in the next" takes over. I honestly feel it runs better in S&W that PF as the encounter level fluctuations are a little less severe (and it seems a little more expected in a system where gp = xp and tricking / stealing / running are much more common practice than wading in, swords flashing).