Looking at it there seems to be a lot more going for it than some other races...or is it just me...
spoiler alert!
Or am I being overly paranoid?
AR
Looking at it there seems to be a lot more going for it than some other races...or is it just me...
spoiler alert!** spoiler omitted **
Or am I being overly paranoid?
AR
Compare to elves.
They're good but I see enough in other races that I would need to play one before I would conclude it's overpowered.
Its been so long since anyone in my group has played an elf...I guess I need to go back and look at them again :) (In fact, I don't think I've seen one in play for Pathfinder...egads).
OK, good points all.
AR
Looking at it there seems to be a lot more going for it than some other races...or is it just me...
spoiler alert!** spoiler omitted **
Or am I being overly paranoid?
AR
Compare to elves. ** spoiler omitted ** Immunities to sleep, bonuses against things that suck, free stacking spell penetration feat, free weapon proficiencies. Elves even get +2 Int to sweeten the deal.
They're good but I see enough in other races that I would need to play one before I would conclude it's overpowered.
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Net +2 net stats : everyone gets that(edited- oops!)
+1 Nat Armor: nice, but 1 AC is hardly game breaking.
Darkvision: Again, other races have this
Bonus to damage: Beyond the low levels, this is trivial
Claw attack: I cannot see being used as a normal attack mode except in special build focued on it.
It could seem to be above the curve at level 1, but it quickly equalizes. This race also has a negative NPC reaction due to their origin. It's like the orc race, sure they make great fighter types, but you have to find a way to make the NPCs not want to kill you on sight.
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this race isn't particularily good for a fighter type.+2 Cha and +2 Wis would be good starts for a paladin build.
Doug M.
I assume this post was based off the thing people often forget about Pathfinder paladins- that they no longer rely on wisdom for spellcasting (or indeed, a good will save. They have a good base will save now and charisma does the heavy lifting). Plenty of other races have or can get a charisma bonus with a more useful secondary bonus, and don't need to take penalties to con for it...
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Its not like the Orc race, because Orcs actually make good fighter types. Aside from the possibility of a dervish dancing dex based build (and even then a human will do it better) this race isn't particularily good for a fighter type.
I meant it being like the orc race with it having a stigma to get past in the roleplaying department. Most of northern Golarion has not had many good encounters with orcs. It is that way with all three races that were mentioned in the players guide, with them being of an origin that makes the general public wary or downright hostile.
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I just want to point out that it's not necessarily being presented as a Player Character race any more than the dozen or so races without racial hit dice in the Bestiary are.
Compare them to other races in the bestiary, for example the Aasimar:
Aasimar Characters
Aasimars are defined by class levels—they do not possess racial Hit Dice. Aasimars have the following racial traits.+2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom: Aasimars are insightful, confident, and personable.
Normal Speed: Aasimars have a base speed of 30 feet.
Darkvision: Aasimars can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Skilled: Aasimars have a +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Perception checks.
Spell-Like Ability: Aasimars can use daylight once per day as a spell-like ability (caster level equals the aasimar's class level).
Celestial Resistance: Aasimars have acid resistance 5, cold resistance 5, and electricity resistance 5.
I just want to point out that it's not necessarily being presented as a Player Character race any more than the dozen or so races without racial hit dice in the Bestiary are.
Sounds like folks have already sussed out that they're really not beyond the typical power level we use for potential player races, but 0gre here is also spot on. These are not a core race, so any decision to or not to use them is right up to the GM.
All that said, remember, changelings also come with a secret penalty...
Some day, their mamas are going to come a callin'.
Sounds like folks have already sussed out that they're really not beyond the typical power level we use for potential player races, but 0gre here is also spot on. These are not a core race, so any decision to or not to use them is right up to the GM.All that said, remember, changelings also come with a secret penalty...
Some day, their mamas are going to come a callin'.
For some reason I am reminded of Morrigan and Flemeth from the Dragon Age series...
that could actually make for a really cool concept if one of my players chooses a changeling.
They make good clerics. Wisdom for Casting and Charisma for channels. Also good for the Inquisitor due to Wisdom for casting and all the Charisma based skills they have access to with those 6 skill points.
Not over powered though.
I actually thought the race was somewhat underpowered. A penalty to Con is rarely a good thing, and most of its abilities seem to emphasise an ability to melee. +1 to all melee damage is good if the race actually encourages a martial character... This doesn't :/.
Not too bad on a cleric all things considered.
I just want to point out that it's not necessarily being presented as a Player Character race any more than the dozen or so races without racial hit dice in the Bestiary are.
Sounds like folks have already sussed out that they're really not beyond the typical power level we use for potential player races, but 0gre here is also spot on. These are not a core race, so any decision to or not to use them is right up to the GM.
All that said, remember, changelings also come with a secret penalty...
Some day, their mamas are going to come a callin'.
Have a changeling cleric of pharasma in our group, as for the penalty I smiled when he took the Sacred Conduit trait. I'm quite certain hags can hold a fearsome grudge, which will make her calling all the more interesting for me to flesh out as a side plot.
Can changlings change form?
No, they are based off myth and legend and fairytales. They are children of monsters, that have been left in the place of a human child.
In time they will become hags.
Looking at it there seems to be a lot more going for it than some other races...or is it just me...
spoiler alert!** spoiler omitted **
Or am I being overly paranoid?
AR
Not even close to the other races. I've been considering giving my player all the different hag bonuses, because with the exception of the claws the rest are crap.
Not even close to the other races. I've been considering giving my player all the different hag bonuses, because with the exception of the claws the rest are crap.Looking at it there seems to be a lot more going for it than some other races...or is it just me...
spoiler alert!** spoiler omitted **
Or am I being overly paranoid?
AR
Darkvision, claws, natural armor, and a choice between extra damage to any melee attacks, bonus to bluff checks that will come in at least 50% of the time, and something to help against hazards (that becomes more or less useful depending on the amount of water that shows up).
How is that underpowered?
Can changlings change form?
Nope, not that kind of changeling. These are the classic version. The kind you give to unsuspecting foster parents - They're the get of a hag and some poor mortal soul who was seduced (and probably killed) by said hag (those monstrous witchy things). Then they're put on someone's doorstep (though I would approve of them sneaking into a crib to steal a baby to put their own monstrous get in its place (and probably eat the baby).
They're always girls, dark tall and handsome. When they come of age, they feel the call of their monstrous mother. Most heed that call and transform into a full-fledged hag, but some resist it and stay changelings.
If there is a player race which is slightly overpowered, it is the Aasimar. A net +4 bonus to attributes, no penalty, and a good number of decent bonuses. I am not sure why they are the only humanoid-human looking PC race which gets more than a +2 attribute bonus, but maybe that will be changed up for the Races book.
If there is a player race which is slightly overpowered, it is the Aasimar. A net +4 bonus to attributes, no penalty, and a good number of decent bonuses. I am not sure why they are the only humanoid-human looking PC race which gets more than a +2 attribute bonus, but maybe that will be changed up for the Races book.
It is not a PC race so it is not held to the same standard as the ones from the core book. It is low enough in power that a GM can allow one without his game falling apart, just like some of the other 0HD races.
Some day, their mamas are going to come a callin'.
All the more reason to play one! Sounds fun.
If there is a player race which is slightly overpowered, it is the Aasimar. A net +4 bonus to attributes, no penalty, and a good number of decent bonuses. I am not sure why they are the only humanoid-human looking PC race which gets more than a +2 attribute bonus, but maybe that will be changed up for the Races book.It is not a PC race so it is not held to the same standard as the ones from the core book. It is low enough in power that a GM can allow one without his game falling apart, just like some of the other 0HD races.
If you think it won't be in the Races book, which clearly makes it a player option, I got a bridge in Ustalav to sell to you...
And, yes, it is not overpowered... but it stands out, because all other commonly taken races cap out at a +2 attribute bonus.
If there is a player race which is slightly overpowered, it is the Aasimar. A net +4 bonus to attributes, no penalty, and a good number of decent bonuses. I am not sure why they are the only humanoid-human looking PC race which gets more than a +2 attribute bonus, but maybe that will be changed up for the Races book.It is not a PC race so it is not held to the same standard as the ones from the core book. It is low enough in power that a GM can allow one without his game falling apart, just like some of the other 0HD races.If you think it won't be in the Races book, which clearly makes it a player option, I got a bridge in Ustalav to sell to you...
And, yes, it is not overpowered... but it stands out, because all other commonly taken races cap out at a +2 attribute bonus.
It may or may not be in the races book, but that does not make it a player option. The core races are the only player races. The others are suitable to be player races, but are monsters first which is why they are not held to the same standard. Having 0HD does not mean open to player choice.
I am currently playing a changling shapeshifter ranger in a rise of the runelords campaign who is currently undergoing the call with the intent to kill her mother and her coven. It's a lot of fun playing it. None of the party know what she is and no-one raised any questions when she dropped her bow and started to maul an ogre with her bare hands (gm has approved monster feats for me to take)
I am currently playing a Changeling Witch in our Carrion Crown game, and I have found nothing even remotely overpowered....in fact I'm the squishy of the group, and have only narrowly avoided death three times now (and we are still on the first module).
However....flavor wise I'm having a BLAST ;)
It may or may not be in the races book, but that does not make it a player option. The core races are the only player races. The others are suitable to be player races, but are monsters first which is why they are not held to the same standard. Having 0HD does not mean open to player choice.
In your game, sure. Are Aasimars and the like allowed in Pathfinder Society games?
It may or may not be in the races book, but that does not make it a player option. The core races are the only player races. The others are suitable to be player races, but are monsters first which is why they are not held to the same standard. Having 0HD does not mean open to player choice.In your game, sure. Are Aasimars and the like allowed in Pathfinder Society games?
I thought you were trying to argue that the 0HD races not in the core book should have been held to the same standard as the ones in the core book.
If not then I misunderstood you.edit:to answer the question the only races allowed in PFS by the rules are the core book races.
It may or may not be in the races book, but that does not make it a player option. The core races are the only player races. The others are suitable to be player races, but are monsters first which is why they are not held to the same standard. Having 0HD does not mean open to player choice.In your game, sure. Are Aasimars and the like allowed in Pathfinder Society games?I thought you were trying to argue that the 0HD races not in the core book should have been held to the same standard as the ones in the core book.
If not then I misunderstood you.edit:to answer the question the only races allowed in PFS by the rules are the core book races.
Ah, good to know. Point conceded to you, then. Still, most races ( outside of the Drow nobles and the Aasimar ) conform to the "net +2 attributes" rule. I think nobody really expects the Drow nobles to be playable as such, but the Aasimar remains a popular option for players ( at least in my groups ), so the net +4 to attributes stands out somewhat.
Ah, good to know. Point conceded to you, then. Still, most races ( outside of the Drow nobles and the Aasimar ) conform to the "net +2 attributes" rule. I think nobody really expects the Drow nobles to be playable as such, but the Aasimar remains a popular option for players ( at least in my groups ), so the net +4 to attributes stands out somewhat.It may or may not be in the races book, but that does not make it a player option. The core races are the only player races. The others are suitable to be player races, but are monsters first which is why they are not held to the same standard. Having 0HD does not mean open to player choice.In your game, sure. Are Aasimars and the like allowed in Pathfinder Society games?I thought you were trying to argue that the 0HD races not in the core book should have been held to the same standard as the ones in the core book.
If not then I misunderstood you.edit:to answer the question the only races allowed in PFS by the rules are the core book races.
The aasimar is also noted as slightly more powerful though because it does not adhere to the same standard. I have had them in games. There is no real difference. I am sure the noble drow would have a noticeable advantage though.
Orcs end up with -2! Poor green guys, always getting the short end of the stick.
Orcs end up with -2! Poor green guys, always getting the short end of the stick.
some classes recieve boons heavily skewed towards a single class, which somehow negates the meaning of the associated drawbacks.
i will use the orc and goblin for these examples.
the orc may have -2 to all 3 mental stats, but it has +4 to strength, which far exceeds the drawback of the 3 penalized mental stats. orcs are almost exclusively fighters and barbarians who seem to mimic Thogg. Orcs also gain a better free racial version of the diehard feat.
goblin has a net gain of +0, also behind the core races, but the 2 dump stats are less important for a TWF rogue. they also gain the defensive benefits of a smaller size without the speed loss, and the benefits of +1 to hit exceeds the loss of -1 average damage. these guys also get skill bonuses literally tailored to the rogue class and darkvision.
remember the 3.5 race called the anthropomorphic bat? it had a bunch of excessively powerful advantages it tried to buy off with a boatload of penalties. it was still extremely overpowered. the penalties were indeed plentiful, but they were made irrelvant with wildshape.
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I've played two of these now, both as witches, and let me tell you what:
I never used the claws, not once.
I never used their special abilities. Not once. (I made a green widow and sea lungs changeling. The DM hated social skill uses, and the Sea lungs changeling never once was in water)
Darkvision is cool, but as a DM, I've found that the first magical item anyone buys in any of my games is darkvision goggles. So, party boon up to level 5.
NA is nice, but I still was walking around rockin' an AC 15 at 9th level. So, not that nice.
The boost to Chr and Wis were sweet, not very useful to my witch (but that's my fault) But that hit to Con is nasty. Nasty nasty. Like, 'she was into sheep' nasty.
Now, that said, you know how to break this race?
A Paladin hulkling changeling. Ah yeah. With two feats: Improved NA and Improved Natural Attack (Claws). Just watch that low Con get useless when I rock an immunity to disease and heal the crap out of myself with lay on hands, not to mention a good fort and a bonus to all my saves with my awesome charisma.
Just don't go near any hags, and you'll be fine.
Playing a changeling summoner here. We're level 5, started at level 2. Two PCs attempting Carrion Crown, just finished Harrowstone.
Sea lungs, Martial Weapon (longbow) as 1st feat, stats rolled 4d6 drop the lowest.
Thus far the claws have been the primary melee weapon. Not sinking gp into a melee weapon at 2nd level is useful when you're looking at that shiny new masterwork composite longbow with strength bonus. The claws are incredibly lackluster, they do the damage of a dagger. Flavor description for when they crit is hilarious; describing this little girl rending something in two with a look of pure ugly fury on her face is priceless.
But being a summoner the eidolon takes most of the melee actions. The changeling just sits back and shoots at things. Same as if I'd played an elf, human, halfling, or what-have-you.
Does not seem unbalanced. My 2cp.
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I've played two of these now, both as witches, and let me tell you what:
I never used the claws, not once.
I never used their special abilities. Not once. (I made a green widow and sea lungs changeling. The DM hated social skill uses, and the Sea lungs changeling never once was in water)
Darkvision is cool, but as a DM, I've found that the first magical item anyone buys in any of my games is darkvision goggles. So, party boon up to level 5.
NA is nice, but I still was walking around rockin' an AC 15 at 9th level. So, not that nice.
The boost to Chr and Wis were sweet, not very useful to my witch (but that's my fault) But that hit to Con is nasty. Nasty nasty. Like, 'she was into sheep' nasty.
Now, that said, you know how to break this race?
A Paladin hulkling changeling. Ah yeah. With two feats: Improved NA and Improved Natural Attack (Claws). Just watch that low Con get useless when I rock an immunity to disease and heal the crap out of myself with lay on hands, not to mention a good fort and a bonus to all my saves with my awesome charisma.
Just don't go near any hags, and you'll be fine.
I guess it's just me but I see the Changeling as slughtly OP if you look at it right.
It's really the claws + Hulking + chr/wis bonus that is the kicker for me.Play a Changeling Monk/Magus and by 6-7th level you'll be attacking 5 times a round for 2D6+X while casting a spell along with an obnoxiously high AC, movement Speed, Saves and Pounce(when you get 3rd level spells) makes this an amazing race to build a melee monster on.
(Yes you could try to do this with other races but the natural attacks, stat bonuses and unique abilities makes this one of the best choices to build with)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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the only races allowed in PFS by the rules are the core book races.
At Gen-Con, PFS players were given the chance to win special boons for their characters, like an extra trait, a bonus to Perception, a free Eastern weapon proficiency, or a real-world PFS shotglass. If you received a boon, there was a d20 roll to determine which one you received.
Eight of the boons were permission to play otherwise-disallowed races: Aasimar, Tiefling, Dhampyr, Tengu, and the four elemental races.
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I guess it's just me but I see the Changeling as slughtly OP if you look at it right.
It's really the claws + Hulking + chr/wis bonus that is the kicker for me.
Play a Changeling Monk/Magus and by 6-7th level you'll be attacking 5 times a round for 2D6+X while casting a spell along with an obnoxiously high AC, movement Speed, Saves and Pounce(when you get 3rd level spells) makes this an amazing race to build a melee monster on.(Yes you could try to do this with other races but the natural attacks, stat bonuses and unique abilities makes this one of the best choices to build with)
I don't see the claw attacks being useful in that build. They're only d4, and you can't use monk abilities on them without investing 2 feats (Weapon Focus-Claws is a prereq for the feat that lets you use monk special abilities with a natural attack). Unless I missed something somewhere, Unarmed Strike is a type of attacks, just like Claws. Claws are considered Natural Weapons, and suffer a -5 penalty to hit if you use a manufactured weapon to attack with as well.
It is true that this race lends itself to certain melee classes well. However, that mostly because, in my opinion, the other racial options are pretty much useless. And if you're going to take +1 damage, you migh as well play something that can get the benefit.
The reason you take the dip in Monk and burn the 2 feats is it removes the -5 penalty to hit, ups the damage the claws do (from 1D4 to 2D6 or better), grants you an extra attack while adding your Wis bonus to your AC. Add on top of that you now get to START with 3-4 attacks a round at 1st level and you will always have more attacks a round then any other player.
That alone is a massive advantage over everyone else and it only gets worse as you level up.
I don't see the claw attacks being useful in that build. They're only d4, and you can't use monk abilities on them without investing 2 feats (Weapon Focus-Claws is a prereq for the feat that lets you use monk special abilities with a natural attack). Unless I missed something somewhere, Unarmed Strike is a type of attacks, just like Claws. Claws are considered Natural Weapons, and suffer a -5 penalty to hit if you use a manufactured weapon to attack with as well.
It is true that this race lends itself to certain melee classes well. However, that mostly because, in my opinion, the other racial options are pretty much useless. And if you're going to take +1 damage, you might as well play something that can get the benefit.
And what feat is that out of curiosity?
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And what feat is that out of curiosity?
I don't see the claw attacks being useful in that build. They're only d4, and you can't use monk abilities on them without investing 2 feats (Weapon Focus-Claws is a prereq for the feat that lets you use monk special abilities with a natural attack). Unless I missed something somewhere, Unarmed Strike is a type of attacks, just like Claws. Claws are considered Natural Weapons, and suffer a -5 penalty to hit if you use a manufactured weapon to attack with as well.
It is true that this race lends itself to certain melee classes well. However, that mostly because, in my opinion, the other racial options are pretty much useless. And if you're going to take +1 damage, you might as well play something that can get the benefit.
Feral Combat Training from Ultimate Combat.
The creation of this feat has opened a massive can of worms for Natural Attack users and re-opened all the issues with the Monk class.
No doubt (and I am not refering to the band).