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After having game mastered counsel of thieves i have gotten a lot of love for chelax and would like to try an original character.
I would like to make a paladin of Asmodeus. Now before i hear the drama outbreak i would like to justify why a paladin would be able to belief in the faith of Asmodeus.
As you all know, clerics need only be within one step of their deity, this means that clerics of Asmodeus can be LN LE NE.
Now imagine clerics of Asmodeus who are LN, they would focus their faith on law rather than evil. To them the key aspect of Asmodeus preaching are lawful in nature. They perceive other interpretations as loaded. They are bound to agree with the LE clerics on law aspects, but despise NE clerics as they misinterpret the will of Asmodeus by just performing evil acts, as this is not what they see Asmodeus as a patron of.
Any cleric is forced to pick two domains, being the main focus of their beliefs in a deity. So a cleric of Asmodeus can be LN who has Law and Fire. This interpretation could be that any who does not follow the law needs to be punished trough fire.
This small group of clerics of Asmodeus has then preached for a young boy, who grew to be a young man under these tales of righteous furry. This man is a firm believer of Asmodeus, but not as a cruel and tricky god, but as law and punishment. This man is also a good person, he wishes the best for his nabours, and his lessors.
For yes Asmodeus preaches that there is a difference between the quality of persons, and species. While normally this would be interpret to mean that you are free to exploit the stupid and the weak, he sees it as nature, that he is stronger and better than others. But unlike the usual understanding of this aspect of Asmodeus, he sees it as his duty to help the less fortunate, for they are clearly unable to do so them self. Slaves are clearly lesser beings, but as they are so, they are not able to withstand a hard life as he is, and therefore he treats them good. Sometimes even better then himself.
Being a man of Asmodeus tought from an early age that there are many who misinterpret the teachings of Asmodeus, he has a vendetta against those who befoul his name, and as such he intends to be a righteous inquisitor of the church of Asmodeus.
Having formed his own understanding of Asmodeus based on the teachings of a LN understanding of the texts he does not understand the true nature of Asmodeus.
He does however when confronted by examples of Asmodeus exploitation of an unfair deal which leaves men as poor thralls, he argues that Asmodeus is truly beyond us all, and that to imitate his acts would be to perceive oneself as Asmodeus equal for only he has the necessary understanding of all things to act as such. This form of blasphemy should be punished with flame.
So what do you think. Is this a viable background for a paladin of Asmodius. There are no rules against it, especially as clarified in council of thieves: mother of flies article of Asmodeus worshipping paladins. They also mention that the only paladins of Asmodeus who does not fall are those who die young.
Is this a concept character i should continue to build on, or do you think it is a bad idea?
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IIRC the "Paladins of Asmodeus" idea was retconned by James Jacobs, and is no longer a part of Golarion lore.
Which is good, because no way I can see a LG champion of altruism and justice serve the Prince of Tyranny.
LN clerics of Asmo are interesting enough as it is ("Yes, I know that some of the more extreme members of our clergy are all about hellfire and brimstone, but let me steer you towards more universally approved facets of Dark Prince's faith - such as the necessity to fulfill signed contracts and the everlasting crusade against the demonic filth...")
Paladins are supposed to uphold the ideals of good and justice, and oppose the forces of evil anywhere they go. Call me close-minded, but I see no way that worshiping a fiendish god of tyranny can fit a paladin's mindset.
Well, maybe it's time to reintroduce the Paladin of Tyranny concept ? In ultimate combat as an archetypes ? Just next to the Paladon of Freedom ? :)
Apparently Necromancers of the Northwest have converted the 3.5 UA variant paladins (of Freedom, Tyranny, Slaughter) to PF.
There are also lots of other options to play a holy warrior/champion of another alignment than LG.
See also the Other Paladins? thread at ENWorld.
Here's a link the NotNW conversion of Paladins of Tyranny, Slaughter & Freedom: Link (here's the 3.5 UA variant with more text)
Or play a Hellknight or a Holy Vindicator (Cool! Satanic stigmata!).
A blackguard conversion might also be fitting, esp. for the fallen paladin route...
I would like to make a paladin of Asmodeus.
As you all know, clerics need only be within one step of their deity, this means that clerics of Asmodeus can be LN LE NE.
Now imagine clerics of Asmodeus who are LN, they would focus their faith on law rather than evil. To them the key aspect of Asmodeus preaching are lawful in nature. They perceive other interpretations as loaded. They are bound to agree with the LE clerics on law aspects, but despise NE clerics as they misinterpret the will of Asmodeus by just performing evil acts, as this is not what they see Asmodeus as a patron of.
[...]
This small group of clerics of Asmodeus has then preached for a young boy, who grew to be a young man under these tales of righteous furry. This man is a firm believer of Asmodeus, but not as a cruel and tricky god, but as law and punishment. This man is also a good person, he wishes the best for his nabours, and his lessors.
For yes Asmodeus preaches that there is a difference between the quality of persons, and species. While normally this would be interpret to mean that you are free to exploit the stupid and the weak, he sees it as nature, that he is stronger and better than others. But unlike the usual understanding of this aspect of Asmodeus, he sees it as his duty to help the less fortunate, for they are clearly unable to do so them self. Slaves are clearly lesser beings, but as they are so, they are not able to withstand a hard life as he is, and therefore he treats them good. Sometimes even better then himself.
Being a man of Asmodeus tought from an early age that there are many who misinterpret the teachings of Asmodeus, he has a vendetta against those who befoul his name, and as such he intends to be a righteous inquisitor of the church of Asmodeus.
Having formed his own understanding of Asmodeus based on the teachings of a LN understanding of the texts he does not understand the true nature of Asmodeus.
He does however when confronted by examples of Asmodeus exploitation of an unfair deal which leaves men as poor thralls, he argues that Asmodeus is truly beyond us all, and that to imitate his acts would be to perceive oneself as Asmodeus equal for only he has the necessary understanding of all things to act as such. This form of blasphemy should be punished with flame.
So what do you think. Is this a viable background for a paladin of Asmodius. There are no rules against it, especially as clarified in council of thieves: mother of flies article of Asmodeus worshipping paladins. They also mention that the only paladins of Asmodeus who does not fall are those who die young.
Is this a concept character i should continue to build on, or do you think it is a bad idea?
Yes bad idea. The philosophy is clearly evasive and LN. Putting Law before good and excusing lawful evil is clearly lawful neutral.
But the idea of a LN pseudo-paladin (some combination of Cavalier, Inquisitor or Cleric with Holy Vindicator and/or Hellknight) of Asmodeus who calls himself a paladin of Asmodeus is awesome!!!
Play him as LN to the hilt and don't worry about good. Or use the rationalisations that you posted above. Just don't pretend as a player that he is really LG...
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Officially, in Golarion, no. Such a thing was printed in a book once, but has been repudiated and recanted on multiple occasions. I suspect that James would like to come to your house and run a marker through that line in your copy of the article (or fire up the old time machine in the basement and make it never have been printed in the first place). :)
At home, with the shades drawn, so that the gnomish gninjas that enforce canon won't see, you can have a Paladin who worships a rock he found as a child, painted a smiley face on, and calls Mr. Skippy.
He'll work just fine, as long as he upholds *his* LG principles (which, as the existence of Paladins of LN Abadar and NG Sarenrae suggest, don't have to precisely line up with the non-good or non-lawful principles of his diety-of-choice, if he even has one).
[And you could have Asmodeus *thrilled* at the idea of empowering a bunch of Hellknight Paladins, and sending them up to Mendev to fight the demonic hordes of the Worldwound and his rival Lamashtu, or those nasty Kuthonites from Nidal, or Urgathoan Gebbites, or Rovagug-worshipping Belzeni orcs, or whatever. He's a god of trickery and tyranny, and what seems more like an appropriate tyrant philosophy than 'do as I say, and not as I do?' (Indeed, to the Greeks, behaving like, or being compared to, a diety was considered hubris punishable by being turned into a gorgon or a giant spider or smote by lightning or forced to copulate with a farm animal. There was a very clear difference between serving Zeus and *acting like Zeus.*) Given the treacherous nature of the Hells, Asmodeus might even *prefer* having some mortal flunkies that he knows are not all backstabbing snakes looking out only for themselves, caring only about their own advancement and comforts, and selfishly 'praying' to him only for the power he can give them. Keep them stationed in Lastwall or Mendev, the heck away from Cheliax, so that they don't end up getting in fights with the clergy, and let them kill all the demons and orcs they can, since the best Lamashtu or Rovagug worshipper to Asmodeus is a dead one.]
Just don't try to bring such a character to a Pathfinder Society game. :)
IIRC the "Paladins of Asmodeus" idea was retconned by James Jacobs, and is no longer a part of Golarion lore.
Which is good, because no way I can see a LG champion of altruism and justice serve the Prince of Tyranny.
LN clerics of Asmo are interesting enough as it is ("Yes, I know that some of the more extreme members of our clergy are all about hellfire and brimstone, but let me steer you towards more universally approved facets of Dark Prince's faith - such as the necessity to fulfill signed contracts and the everlasting crusade against the demonic filth...")
He did not retcon it, but he did admit it slipped by him. I am sure that instead of vague hints about how paladins work in the new campaign setting he will state it directly.
Though it would be quite funny to see the character reach epic levels, face his own god and use smite evil on him ^^
I still don´t get why tricking people with some lawyer tricks is considered lawful. On the other hand, I don´t like the idea of alignments.
IN GOLARION, with the exception of houserules, James has said that paladins have to be within one step of the alignment.
In Gods and Magic, the gods listed as having paladins are all within onestep.
James has many times said he regrets not catching the CoT bit that mentions it. And regret may be a weak word. Set may have it on spot that JJ may be knocking on OP's door with a sharpie.
I am in the camp of: character thinks they are a paladin, but build is not Paladin class. Awesome idea. There are plenty of third party and 3.x ideas for this. Also, simple Inquisitor, Cleric or Oracle could be good choices. Fighter and Ranger less so, but YMMV.
Though, I do wonder why so many posters WANT a paladin following an evil god. Kinda setting oneself up for failure and misery.
Greg
Here's a link the NotNW conversion of Paladins of Tyranny, Slaughter & Freedom: Link (here's the 3.5 UA variant with more text)
Or play a Hellknight or a Holy Vindicator (Cool! Satanic stigmata!).
A blackguard conversion might also be fitting, esp. for the fallen paladin route...
Oh thanks a lot, nice conversion !!! My players will love that ;)
This is a topic where I think James kinda overreacted. There's a difference between a Paladin "OF" a god, and a Paladin who merely worships a god. In polytheistic cultures it was not uncommon to worship or pay reverence to several gods.
There's also nothing in the rules that said a Paladin MUST have is powers granted by a god. You could make one that has his powers granted by some other powerful outsider. That certainly is good explanation as to where a Cleric devoted to an Ideal gets his powers. Just because you Paladin worships Gorum, among other gods, doesn't mean that Gorum is the source of his powers. You could even have a Paladin that doesn't know which particular deity or power took notice of them.
As far as a Paladin of Asmodeus, I really don't see this as a Paladin who worships Asmodeus. Rather, a warrior whom Asmodeus offered Paladin powers in return for some service, usually "Go kill demons"
Though, I do wonder why so many posters WANT a paladin following an evil god. Kinda setting oneself up for failure and misery.
Setting yourself up for failure and misery is quite a nice thing for developing a character... think of the dramatic effect when the paladin realizes the true nature of his god! (well it might not fit into some campaigns since it´s a story branch on it´s own... but basically it´s like giving a Call of Cthulhu-character relatives, fun thing to do ^^)
I see Paladin's as a "(un)holy knight" (using brackets if they apply). As long as a Paladin fights for a cause and is not neutral, it's good in my books. Of course this is also where the Antipaladin, Hellknight, Cavalier, and Blackguard can come in.
It's all a matter of how the player wants to flavour their character, unless it's Pathfinder Society of course.
IN GOLARION, with the exception of houserules, James has said that paladins have to be within one step of the alignment.
In Gods and Magic, the gods listed as having paladins are all within onestep.
James has many times said he regrets not catching the CoT bit that mentions it. And regret may be a weak word. Set may have it on spot that JJ may be knocking on OP's door with a sharpie.
I am in the camp of: character thinks they are a paladin, but build is not Paladin class. Awesome idea. There are plenty of third party and 3.x ideas for this. Also, simple Inquisitor, Cleric or Oracle could be good choices. Fighter and Ranger less so, but YMMV.
Though, I do wonder why so many posters WANT a paladin following an evil god. Kinda setting oneself up for failure and misery.
Greg
Except he has also said he is fine with Paladins of Cayden Cailean, so that 1 step of alignment doesn't really hold up.
Playing doomed characters is fun, and its giving the GM free reign to mess with you, which is an added plus.
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IN GOLARION, with the exception of houserules, James has said that paladins have to be within one step of the alignment.
In Gods and Magic, the gods listed as having paladins are all within onestep.
James has many times said he regrets not catching the CoT bit that mentions it. And regret may be a weak word. Set may have it on spot that JJ may be knocking on OP's door with a sharpie.
I am in the camp of: character thinks they are a paladin, but build is not Paladin class. Awesome idea. There are plenty of third party and 3.x ideas for this. Also, simple Inquisitor, Cleric or Oracle could be good choices. Fighter and Ranger less so, but YMMV.
Though, I do wonder why so many posters WANT a paladin following an evil god. Kinda setting oneself up for failure and misery.
Greg
Except he has also said he is fine with Paladins of Cayden Cailean, so that 1 step of alignment doesn't really hold up.
Have to ask where he said this because all the times I saw him bring it up he has stated Cayden Cailean Can not have paladins.
Most recent beingThis one
I actually had a paladin who revered Asmodeus. He was a slave who was freed during the blood games in Cheliax. He grew up in tyranny and slavery, and through the divine grace of Asmodeus, was given freedom. It worked because the character was completely uneducated and had no ranks in knowledge religion (why would you teach such things to a foreign slave boy?) I had a pretty amazing mental breakdown planned for when he finally accepted that Asmodeus is a monstrous devil hell bent on enslaving the world. Sadly, the game never got that far.
"Paladin" of Asmodeus
Human Fighter 1/Sorcerer (celestial bloodline) 1
Str 16+2 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 7 wis 12 cha 14
skills: ride, intimidate, heal, use magic device
Feats: Power attack, wf: greatsword, iron will
traits: Sacred Touch, Courageous
spells known: 0th: Detect magic, light, mending, disrupt undead 1st: Mount, true strike
I went with an Int of 7 because really, if you think you are a paladin of asmodeus, you can't be that smart. At first level, you have your "smite" (Power attack), your healing touch (well, stabilize), and are fairly resistant to fear. At second level, you can summon your mount, channel energy to heal good people, detect evil (well, magic), call light, injure undead, can heal items and if you concentrate you can strike true. You can even occasionally use cure light wound wands.
At least, that is how I would do it.
IN GOLARION, with the exception of houserules, James has said that paladins have to be within one step of the alignment.
In Gods and Magic, the gods listed as having paladins are all within onestep.
James has many times said he regrets not catching the CoT bit that mentions it. And regret may be a weak word. Set may have it on spot that JJ may be knocking on OP's door with a sharpie.
I am in the camp of: character thinks they are a paladin, but build is not Paladin class. Awesome idea. There are plenty of third party and 3.x ideas for this. Also, simple Inquisitor, Cleric or Oracle could be good choices. Fighter and Ranger less so, but YMMV.
Though, I do wonder why so many posters WANT a paladin following an evil god. Kinda setting oneself up for failure and misery.
Greg
Except he has also said he is fine with Paladins of Cayden Cailean, so that 1 step of alignment doesn't really hold up.
Have to ask where he said this because all the times I saw him bring it up he has stated Cayden Cailean Can not have paladins.
Most recent beingThis one
Sorry, I misread a post by him later in that thread, where he is refering to a LG monk. I stand corrected.
This is a topic where I think James kinda overreacted. There's a difference between a Paladin "OF" a god, and a Paladin who merely worships a god. In polytheistic cultures it was not uncommon to worship or pay reverence to several gods.
There's also nothing in the rules that said a Paladin MUST have is powers granted by a god...The problem that both James and I have with this is that there's something seriously, obscenely thematically wrong with an ArchDevil granting holy powers period.
There's also the Paladin alignment requirements vs worshipping Asmodeous. There is simply no way a Paladin can remain a Paladin while worshipping the ArchTyrant.
I`m with Lazar on James Jacobs over-reacting here.
But AFAIK, PRPG Paladins DON`T receive their powers from a diety.So there isn`t really any such thing as a Paladin `OF` a Diety (no matter how LG that Diety is), merely Paladins who worship dieties like every other mundane Joe, and who possibly see such worship in line with their LG world-view, but their POWERS don`t directly derive from the Diety or Dieties in question, they derive from the Paladin`s communion with Cosmic Lawful Goodness.
The CoCT article doesn`t actually talk about Paladins receiving their Paladin powers from Asmodeus, or even worshipping Asmodeus, it talks about Paladins `serving` Asmodeus. You can serve somebody without even knowing that you are doing so, or knowing the full details of who you are serving, etc. In other words, the article describes how Asmodeus likes to draw Paladins into his confidence/fold so they can be corrupted (and thus eventually fall as Paladins, as the article makes clear). There is no suggestion of new options for Paladins to draw their powers from, etc (e.g. from Asmodeus), just that Asmodeus likes to manipulate Paladins into falling. (of course, Asmodeus could just send powerful items towards such Paladins, or otherwise grant them powers that Asmodeus could grant to ANYBODY independent of class, but that`s a completely different thing than what is being discussed)
So I don`t find the CoCT article at all problematic, although I suppose Paizo might like to add some further words at some point clarifying what the article does/ does not mean... But the article just doesn`t say what many people, including James Jacob`s quoted reaction to it, think it says.
Even granting all that here's where it all fails.You can't serve Asmodeous knowingly or unknowingly unless you are directly or indirectly abetting the causes of Tyranny, and Lawful Evil in general. Eventually you WILL lose your Paladin abilities whether out of deliberate choice or willful ignorance, but you LOSE them, because aiding Law alone is not enough to serve what a Paladin regardless of what diety he may think he's following, or even if the Pally is an athiest must serve.
Which the article in question also states quite clearly:
"only those lucky enough to die young avoid falling from grace"
The article is (in my view) not meant as a way to allow people to play Paladins that worship Asmodeus; rather as a way to further detail Asmodeus's cruelty. He could just have the Paladin killed, but instead he manipulates the Paladin to serve him, thus causing the Paladin to fall and be guilt-ridden.
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I suspect that James would like to come to your house and run a marker through that line in your copy of the article
Mr. Jacobs is personally invited to come to my home anytime he's in New England and deface my copy IF he stays to run a game.
Certainly, I'd say that paladins of Asmodeus are against the RAW. But, what if he had paladins as a massive form of deception?
Imagine a paladin who serves what he believes to be an LG deity loyally and well all his life. And indeed, he would be loyal, because he really would be doing good deeds because Asmodeus told him to. Why would the ruler of Hell do this? Because a little good now will be counteracted by lots of evil results later.
The paladin will unwittingly entice good people into believing that Asmodeus can't possibly be *that* bad - after all, he has paladins! And after a lifetime of good and loyal service, the paladin will die confident that he is about to receive his eternal reward - only to find out that it was all a peel and he'll spend the rest of eternity burning in Hell.
I don't know about you, but I think that sounds as diabolical as it gets.
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Imagine a paladin who serves what he believes to be an LG deity loyally and well all his life. And indeed, he would be loyal, because he really would be doing good deeds because Asmodeus told him to. Why would the ruler of Hell do this? Because a little good now will be counteracted by lots of evil results later.
As long as the goals of Lamashtu, Rovagug, Urgathoa, Zon-Kuthon, the daemon horsemen and a dozen or so demon lords all conflict more or less violently with the plans of Asmodeus, having dozens, or even hundreds, of LG evil-smiting Paladins out there causing those dieties servants (whether they be Worldwound demons, orcs, gnolls, Gebbites, Nidalese umbral court lackeys, daemon or demon cultists, servants of the Old Cults / Groetus, etc.) endless amounts of pain, Asmodeus wins in the end.
If, at the end of an entire lifetime spent smiting demons and being a paragon of justice and virtue, a good man goes to Hell because he was unknowingly getting his powers from Asmodeus? A virtuous soul, nobler by far than millions that *have* gone to the upper planes, condemned to the Hells because of a legalistic heartless technicality?
That's just delicious gravy.
It is indeed diabolical.
As far as a Paladin of Asmodeus, I really don't see this as a Paladin who worships Asmodeus. Rather, a warrior whom Asmodeus offered Paladin powers in return for some service, usually "Go kill demons"
But imho Asmodeus cannot offer any holy or paladin powers, as he only has unholy power to offer.
Pathfinder(non-campaign rules) does not rule against it so by RAW I would say yes, but for Golarion the answer is no. He said it slipped by him in CoT, but it would be corrected in the new campaign setting to be absolute instead of simply implied.
PS:I have not checked to see if the change was made, but I am sure it was his intent to do so if he said so on the boards.
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But imho Asmodeus cannot offer any holy or paladin powers, as he only has unholy power to offer.
[tangent]
The whole 'sacred / profane' thing is misused in 3.X, IMO. Something that is holy to an evil god, like Asmodeus, would be just as 'sacred' as something that is holy to a good god, like Desna.Something that is profane is antithetical / adversarial to faith, and it should be just as 'profane' to defile a holy symbol of Urgathoa as it should be to defile a holy symbol of Sarenrae. Evil gods are still gods, after all, not 'anti-gods.' They're just gods.
The 'profane' type should be reserved, IMO, to forces which are irreligious in nature, such as 3.X's Ur-Priest, or some sort of anti-divine-force rearing it's head in Rahadoum, or one of those races or groups that are gods-defying, like the Aboleth.
Same with the holy word / blasphemy things, or the consecrate / descrate spells, or the hallow / unhallow spells. A blasphemy should be an arcane spell that disrupts / offends the divine, perhaps automatically counterspelling or dispelling divine magic in the area. A desecrate or unhallow spell should make it harder to channel divine energy, whether by good or evil divine spellcaster, while a consecrate or hallow spell should enhance the effectiveness of divine spellcasting in the area, whether by nice cleric of Shelyn or naughty cleric or Zon-Kuthon or disinterested druid of Gozreh.
It just feels like sloppy thinking to have misused the words sacred, profane, consecrate, desecrate, blasphemy and hallow in these ways.
[/tangent]
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Home games, sure why not.
As for pathfinder there should have been or should be in the future a LE anti-paladin or Blackguard.
In the Blackguard prestige class issue the requirements should allow almost anyone to become a black guard epecially LE clerics and oracles, unlock PF make the blackguard the LE version of the anti-paladin. If so that should end the QUEST for the Paladin Asmodeus
though I agree with no paladins of asmodius bit. gnomes og golarion refers to a paladin of sheylin which also seems to be against the rules.
Creative Director
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though I agree with no paladins of asmodius bit. gnomes og golarion refers to a paladin of sheylin which also seems to be against the rules.
Paladins of Shelyn exist. They're not as common, though.
Paladins can serve lawful good gods easy. They can serve lawful neutral gods by focusing hard on the law side of lawful good. They can serve neutral good goods by focusing hard on the good side of lawful good.
Basically, paladins of neutral good deities are, on average, friendlier and more permissive than most paladins. And paladins of lawful neutral deities are, on average, more stern and strict than most paladins.
In the Blackguard prestige class issue the requirements should allow almost anyone to become a black guard epecially LE clerics and oracles
IMO, the Blackguard should be an archetype rather than a PrC.
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Here's a link the NotNW conversion of Paladins of Tyranny, Slaughter & Freedom: Link (here's the 3.5 UA variant with more text)
, esp. for the fallen paladin route...
Thank you lots for putting this link up!
oh, Core Pathfinder Paladin of Asomedus? -1.