So I had this thought. No idea if it useful in any way it's just a question about game mechanics.
A Medium sized character buys a Small sized Blunderbuss.
He suffers a -2 attack penalty since there's a one size category difference.
A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.
However because of Small size the Blunderbuss is a one-handed weapon.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Since it's one-handed reload time is a standard action.
It’s a standard action to load a one-handed firearm
Rapid Reload brings it down to a move action
The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced ..., a move action (for a heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm)
Using Alchemical Cartridges brings it down to a free action
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (..., a move action becomes a free action)
Don't think you can do it with advanced firearms since they use metal cartridges and those specify that it becomes a move action and not that the required action is reduced by one step. Also you will suffer from the -2 attack penalty and decreased damage from the smaller sized weapon. The question is if this is how it works not if it is useful.
That's a loop hole if ever I saw one.
That's a loop hole if ever I saw one.
O.O i know...
The blunderbuss is never a one-handed weapon. It's a small-size two-handed weapon, that you happen to be able to wield in one hand. Your "Weapon Size" quote doesn't change which position the weapon is on on the actual weapon table. Nice try, though.
Sure, it's still a two-handed weapon, but you TREAT IT AS a one-handed weapon.
The loop hole works as written.
No, it is a two handed weapon, you just happen to be able to use it to shoot one handed. It is still, inheirently, a two handed weapon.
If I handed it to a small sized character they would require two hands to use. The core properties of the weapon are unchanges.
No, just because you can try to bend an interpretation does not mean we would have to magically agree with it, and any player keen on trying that gem at my table would find the blunderbus lodged someowhere unpleasant... probably rendering it invisible due to 'darkness'
That isn't true with swords, crossbows, slings, or any other weapon for that matter. Why would it be true for guns? Why are they the exception to the rule?
Is there some further clarification (outside of the weapons table) that says you need two hands to fire or load them, like a bow? Cause if there isn't, this loop hole is perfectly rules legal.
That isn't true with swords, crossbows, slings, or any other weapon for that matter. Why would it be true for guns? Why are they the exception to the rule?
Notwithstanding the above, look at the mechanics of reloading a black powder weapon... regardless of it being small(er) you still need both hands to pour powder, use rods etc.
Shifty your interpretation would give us this.
Yes but then there is the other case that could be true with larger weapons if it stays the same size. Can I use a large dragon pistol with a medium sized character and then reload it with the -2. Now where you are going to find that I do not know. But that would require two hands.
Also note tihs works with large pistols which would do 2d6 and have a misfire value of 1. Heck you could even have a large double barreled pistol this way vital striking with two attacks at 2d6 each at -6 vs touch which is more broken if you can hit.
That isn't true with swords, crossbows, slings, or any other weapon for that matter. Why would it be true for guns? Why are they the exception to the rule?Notwithstanding the above, look at the mechanics of reloading a black powder weapon... regardless of it being small(er) you still need both hands to pour powder, use rods etc.
Aside from a developer comment on these forums saying you need a free hand to reload, I see absolutely none of these reload mechanics you are referring to anywhere within the playtest rules.
Aside from a developer comment on these forums saying you need a free hand to reload, I see absolutely none of these reload mechanics you are referring to anywhere within the playtest rules.
Is that your way of sticking your head in the sand to avoid needing two hands to reload?
How do you reload a black powder weapon then? go on, explanation please...
Discussing anything other than RAW is pretty meaningless as there is nothing to rely on except subjective opinions.
Guns do lead to some strange things.
If you want to keep it realistic I'm sure some people will find Deflect Arrow and Snatch Arrow working against guns weird.
To bad they made an optional rule out of daring act. Our plan was to have troll gunslingers (for regeneration) jumping over spiked pits to generate grit and used the Secret Stash Deed (Grit) feat to generate bullets and black powder.
Shifty your interpretation would give us this.
Yes but then there is the other case that could be true with larger weapons if it stays the same size. Can I use a large dragon pistol with a medium sized character and then reload it with the -2. Now where you are going to find that I do not know. But that would require two hands.
Also note tihs works with large pistols which would do 2d6 and have a misfire value of 1. Heck you could even have a large double barreled pistol this way vital striking with two attacks at 2d6 each at -6 vs touch which is more broken if you can hit.
What he said, either your reloading a small blunderbuss quickly or with shifty's ruling you can load a large dragon pistol just as quickly as a small one.
Either way its exploitable and should probably be addressed.
Either way its exploitable and should probably be addressed.
The most salient point made.
Aside from a developer comment on these forums saying you need a free hand to reload, I see absolutely none of these reload mechanics you are referring to anywhere within the playtest rules.Is that your way of sticking your head in the sand to avoid needing two hands to reload?
How do you reload a black powder weapon then? go on, explanation please...
Several other forum posters have already described tucking a firearm into your armpit and then reloading it. The entire process can be done with one hand.
Several other forum posters have already described tucking a firearm into your armpit and then reloading it. The entire process can be done with one hand.
Only works if you are an octopus...
And even that description is still going to involve two limbs - so sure not two HANDS, but both LIMBS are still being used.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to-load-and-shoot-civil-war-musket-269561/
And thats more advanced and refined than your Blunderbuss.
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So I had this thought. No idea if it useful in any way it's just a question about game mechanics.
A Medium sized character buys a Small sized Blunderbuss.
He suffers a -2 attack penalty since there's a one size category difference.
A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder.However because of Small size the Blunderbuss is a one-handed weapon.
This is valid only because the playtest divides weapons into "one-handed" and "two-handed" firearms. Ranged weapons in the core rulebook are not one-handed or two-handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that require either one hand or two hands to use.
Possibly the designers did, in fact, intend that a Medium character can fire a Small musket with one hand and in other ways treat it as a one-handed firearm, following the rules for melee weapons. If not, it needs clarification of what exactly "one-handed" and "two-handed" implies for firearms.
the process of armpit tucking is generally talking about two weapons and needing to free one hand up to stuff more ammo in.
However, 7th cav did do it one handed while riding a horse (albeit with a gun specifically designed to do so)
However, 7th cav did do it one handed while riding a horse (albeit with a gun specifically designed to do so)
However the Blunder is still a looong way away from the Breech loading Springfield Carbine :p
I was talking about a springfield carbine (although they loaded that one handed too) I was talking about a schofield pistol.
However, in the case of the two handed reloading time, the reason the two handed weapon takes longer is due to the longer barrel, on the halflings weapon, being reloaded by a human, that would be a much shorter distance for him, although I think, still longer than a medium pistol.
I really don't think it matters since the damage is reduced anyway, due to size.
Also, the ruling is, it becomes a One-Handed weapon. It is no longer two-handed.
After all, if your wielded a Tiny greatsword two-handed, you're not getting the two-handed bonus from Power Attack because, RAW, it is now a Light weapon in your hands.
This is valid only because the playtest divides weapons into "one-handed" and "two-handed" firearms. Ranged weapons in the core rulebook are not one-handed or two-handed weapons. They are ranged weapons that require either one hand or two hands to use.
Possibly the designers did, in fact, intend that a Medium character can fire a Small musket with one hand and in other ways treat it as a one-handed firearm, following the rules for melee weapons. If not, it needs clarification of what exactly "one-handed" and "two-handed" implies for firearms.
That's a good point! What is with Paizo making all these exception based classes/rule subsets?
What makes guns so special so as to warrant all this confusing terminology mixing?
Just adding this for future reference if someone should stumble upon this thread.
According to Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Designer) a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature.
Guns work different. It's not only the truth, it is the goal. They work differently when it comes to proficiency, they work differently when it comes to size, they work differently when it comes to attacks.
There is no such thing as a light firearm, a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature (though they do get the penalty for using a weapon not of inappropriate size.
Even with bows, if you reduce the size, they don't become one-handed or light weapons.
Just adding this for future reference if someone should stumble upon this thread.
According to Stephen Radney-MacFarland (Designer) a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature.
SourceGuns work different. It's not only the truth, it is the goal. They work differently when it comes to proficiency, they work differently when it comes to size, they work differently when it comes to attacks.
There is no such thing as a light firearm, a small rifle is still a two-handed weapon in the hands of a Medium creature (though they do get the penalty for using a weapon not of inappropriate size.
Even with bows, if you reduce the size, they don't become one-handed or light weapons.
Yay, common sense prevailed.
Good thing I was right.
Yay, common sense prevailed.
Agreed.
This however raises the question about how you interact with ridiculously oversized weapons. The following rules concerns when you become unable to use a weapon
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
Since Stephen seems to have stated that changing a firearms size doesn't change its designation you could reason that you can wield a Colossal Revolver as a one-handed weapon. The only thing that seems to prevent you from normally using a bigger weapon is it being neither a light, one-handed or two-handed weapon for you.
However he also stated that "Guns work different" so they might pull something out of the air against that (and yes, it would make sense to do so).
However he also stated that "Guns work different" so they might pull something out of the air against that (and yes, it would make sense to do so).
Well in all fairness, you probably could, you'd just be innacurate as all hell. You can fire an assault rifle in one hand (extended out pistol style, or on the side - gangsta!) if you feel so inclined, but you wont be hitting much :P
The Collosal Pistol would be rare, hard to shoot (at a minus 8 or 10?) and more expensive than the Death Star.
Well in all fairness, you probably could, you'd just be innacurate as all hell. You can fire an assault rifle in one hand (extended out pistol style, or on the side - gangsta!) if you feel so inclined, but you wont be hitting much :P
However he also stated that "Guns work different" so they might pull something out of the air against that (and yes, it would make sense to do so).
touch AC says you'd hit everything, what is that a minus 8? big deal, that just brings him up to regular AC
touch AC says you'd hit everything, what is that a minus 8? big deal, that just brings him up to regular AC
OK well I accept that as very valid, and its one more bugbear I have with this whole 'touch attack' caper... its one of the main reasons I can't see guns being brought into any traditional campaign I ever run or play in.
Wouldn't your colossal pistol take up all the space inside your first range increment though?