Sure you get Bravery +1, but that is one of the most "blah" class features in the game. The only thing I can see it being there for is a placeholder for archetypes to switch out... which pretty much means every archetype for the Gunslinger is likely to be better than the base Gunslinger.
Isn't there something that can be put into 2nd level to make you want to keep going up in levels, rather than immediately multiclassing out into Fighter or Ranger?
A bonus feat sure seems like it would be a good fit. The gunslinger still needs point blank, precise shot, and rapid reload just to start... but then the class is also dangling in front of you a bunch of new feats.
An then you're going for six levels not getting really any Deeds that truly have pizazz. When you looking at that long trudge towards the fancy stuff it sure would help to at least smooth out the character more.
Well obviously paizo feels differently, and as for why you wouldn't wanna just cross class immediately, one big reason is you wouldn't get any more deeds, another is no gun training.
Sure you get Bravery +1, but that is one of the most "blah" class features in the game. The only thing I can see it being there for is a placeholder for archetypes to switch out... which pretty much means every archetype for the Gunslinger is likely to be better than the base Gunslinger.
Isn't there something that can be put into 2nd level to make you want to keep going up in levels, rather than immediately multiclassing out into Fighter or Ranger?
A bonus feat sure seems like it would be a good fit. The gunslinger still needs point blank, precise shot, and rapid reload just to start... but then the class is also dangling in front of you a bunch of new feats.
An then you're going for six levels not getting really any Deeds that truly have pizazz. When you looking at that long trudge towards the fancy stuff it sure would help to at least smooth out the character more.
I think you hit it on the head Mok. They should give a bonus combat feat at 2nd level, and allow the gunslinger to choose from Rapid Reload, Point-Blank Shot, or Precise Shot.
Are you kidding me? Two good saves and big bonuses to the 3rd against fear? That puts them in the "awesome saves" category right along with the monk and paladin!
While I think it multiclassing out right away a little drastic, I do think that 2nd level needs something in addition to Bravery. The bonus feats seem the best and most obvious choice. Another may be to have the Deeds spread out over more levels instead of getting a bunch at a time every four levels. Maybe getting one at level 1, 2, and every three levels afterwards; or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.
Well obviously paizo feels differently, and as for why you wouldn't wanna just cross class immediately, one big reason is you wouldn't get any more deeds, another is no gun training.That's why I'm giving my input for the playtest.
The thing is... 3rd level deeds aren't all that great. The Initative is the best of the bunch since it's always on, but even then... it isn't that cool.
Pistol Whip costs a grit and a standard action, so it isn't anything special... and beyond that, you ought to have something other weapon at hand since there is no way you'll be able to afford a second gun at 3rd level. Sure, it gives you the option of knocking someone prone, but the problem is that you need to make a CMB check, and Gunslingers are going to be putting their eggs in Dex and Wis, not Strength and thus their CMB isn't going to worth all that much... unless they get Agile Maneuvers, but then of course it's another feat they have to get in their already starved feats.
If the pistol whip was a swift action then I could see it being a bit more worthwhile in offensive power, but it still doesn't feel like a real power boost.
The utility deeds are so highly situational that they are almost worthless in any particular session of play. All of those could be given at 1st level and not make a dent in any power balance in the game at all.
So really, the Gunslinger is looking at 2nd AND 3rd level being mostly dead levels. It's only at 4th level when you can finally begin to improve the whole point of the class, which is to shoot guns really well.
Right now in looking at building up the class I'd much rather just do Gunslinger 1, then Fighter 4+, rather than slog through to get at some ok stuff at mid level and then finally at 7th level the class starts to really come into its own.
If you look at other classes, such as the Fighter, Rogue, Alchemist, etc. You see that every other level you're getting a real boost in your core ability in the game, and the alternate level...
So BAB, skill points, saves, and some class features make a dead level?
or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.
I nominate this option as being awesome!
I also vote that gunslinger gets more bonus feats at low levels, as mentioned already in this thread.
Well obviously paizo feels differently, and as for why you wouldn't wanna just cross class immediately, one big reason is you wouldn't get any more deeds, another is no gun training.Insert your Response here
I did actually forget that fighters got a bonus feat along with bravery.
I do think the lack of something there has something to do Paizo trying to keep out the OMG WTF GUNSLINGERS ARE TO GOOD!
I do feel tho that a bonus feat is too good. Then the class is just straight up better than fighter, you get good Fort and Ref saves, you get a bonus feat -1 progression of fighter, and you get a set of instant slightly useful abilities for any character, oh and a gun. It would become the default Lighter armored warrior character base class.
My suggestion +1 grit at 2nd level and then every 4 levels their after. then you get something to improve the core class ability at those levels as well.
or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.I nominate this option as being awesome!
I also vote that gunslinger gets more bonus feats at low levels, as mentioned already in this thread.
I would like more deeds, work them like ninja tricks (some use grit(ki) some do not) get them ever other level, some of the deeds (like lightening reload) that are essential to class function become class abilities and have one of the deeds you can take be "combat trick" so every other level that would work exactly like a bonus feat, essentially, this way you could pick up a deed, or pick up a combat feat, up to the player.
I would like more deeds, work them like ninja tricks (some use grit(ki) some do not) get them ever other level, some of the deeds (like lightening reload) that are essential to class function become class abilities and have one of the deeds you can take be "combat trick" so every other level that would work exactly like a bonus feat, essentially, this way you could pick up a deed, or pick up a combat feat, up to the player.or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.I nominate this option as being awesome!
I also vote that gunslinger gets more bonus feats at low levels, as mentioned already in this thread.
Thats a decent solution but now what do Gunslingers get at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter?
Edit: Its nice to live in a world where you give half the solution but not the other half isnt it?
Ranger:
d10 HD
+1 BAB
+2 Fort
+2 Ref
Heal as a class skill
Knowledge (Geography)as a class skill
Perception as a class skill
Spellcraft as a class skill
Stealth as a class skill
Survival as a class skill
And the ability to use several beneficial wands...
EDIT: and 6+int mod skill points
I would like more deeds, work them like ninja tricks (some use grit(ki) some do not) get them ever other level, some of the deeds (like lightening reload) that are essential to class function become class abilities and have one of the deeds you can take be "combat trick" so every other level that would work exactly like a bonus feat, essentially, this way you could pick up a deed, or pick up a combat feat, up to the player.or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.I nominate this option as being awesome!
I also vote that gunslinger gets more bonus feats at low levels, as mentioned already in this thread.
Thats a decent solution but now what do Gunslingers get at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter?
Edit: Its nice to live in a world where you give half the solution but not the other half isnt it?
Ummm they get DEEDS?
Some of those 'dead' levels, like i said above would become class features that they would get at a set level (like the change on lightening reload)
I know I said that above
Don't get me wrong. I think bravery is good in its own right. But it's boring, and it's one of the fighter's "things." This is supposed to be its own class now. What the hell is it doing with a major fighter ability?
I was honestly hoping for something along the lines of "improved range" at the same rate. Like 5 feet per +1. That, I think, would be COOL. The thing that totally irked me about the new firearm rules are that, while you may get touch AC within the first range increment, the first range increment BLOWS. 20 feet with a pistol? Really? 40 with a freaking musket? Both of those are within anybody's charge distance unless they're a halfling or a gnome (in HEAVY ARMOR)!
Honestly, the range bugged me more than any other problem the system had, including the prices.
Adding an extra 25 feet (by 18th level) feels so much more like a "gunslinger" ability, rather than an old fighter ability that got ported over.
Want your gunslinger to be brave? Add a deed that adds a bonus to your will saves against fear equal to your current grit. That makes sense to me. It fits into a current mechanic and feels flavorfully correct.
I'm also for selectable Deeds, since as they stand now all gunslingers are very same-y. The hallmark, in my opinion, of Pathfinder was that each class felt customizable without having to resort to 4e's "I select EVERYTHING" motif.
-The Beast
If you are playing a fighter, of any specialty really, you can dip into gunslinger...
You can't take levels of fighter AND gunslinger, since the latter is a variant of the former. It would be like multiclassing a paladin and an antipaladin. Just doesn't work.
If you are playing a fighter, of any specialty really, you can dip into gunslinger...You can't take levels of fighter AND gunslinger, since the latter is a variant of the former. It would be like multiclassing a paladin and an antipaladin. Just doesn't work.
No more. Gunslinger is now a full base class in its own right.
I would like more deeds, work them like ninja tricks (some use grit(ki) some do not) get them ever other level, some of the deeds (like lightening reload) that are essential to class function become class abilities and have one of the deeds you can take be "combat trick" so every other level that would work exactly like a bonus feat, essentially, this way you could pick up a deed, or pick up a combat feat, up to the player.or making more deeds and treating them like rogue talents.I nominate this option as being awesome!
I also vote that gunslinger gets more bonus feats at low levels, as mentioned already in this thread.
Thats a decent solution but now what do Gunslingers get at 3rd level and every 4 levels thereafter?
Edit: Its nice to live in a world where you give half the solution but not the other half isnt it?
Ummm they get DEEDS?
Some of those 'dead' levels, like i said above would become class features that they would get at a set level (like the change on lightening reload)
I know I said that above
Okay so lightning reload thats one, so what you are going with is "See I helped you do the rest", also combat trick is only once since you are using rogue as an example so now the class is over all losing out on bonus feats at later levels.
The big thing is making DEEDS Like talents, Discoveries, Tricks, Rage powers etc... is just that they've done it so much, SO MUCH. They are experimenting with something different. Some of the Deeds the class gets, makes them not need some of the feats that the previous version needed to succeed.
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If you are playing a fighter, of any specialty really, you can dip into gunslinger...You can't take levels of fighter AND gunslinger, since the latter is a variant of the former. It would be like multiclassing a paladin and an antipaladin. Just doesn't work.
First of all, thanks to all of you who took part in the first round of playtesting. Your feedback has been invaluable in making sure that you’ll get the best versions of the gunslinger, ninja, and samurai with the release of Ultimate Combat. It was also instrumental in the evolution of the gunslinger into a full class.
Full class seems to imply that Gunslinger, like the Ranger, is no longer a Fighter variant for multiclassing purposes.
So now they've lost access to Weapon Sepcialization and Greater Weapon Specialization (and all those other cool fighter-only feats)?
For a class that focuses on one type of weapon, that is SERIOUSLY LAME!!!
Don't get me wrong. I think bravery is good in its own right. But it's boring, and it's one of the fighter's "things." This is supposed to be its own class now. What the hell is it doing with a major fighter ability?
I was honestly hoping for something along the lines of "improved range" at the same rate. Like 5 feet per +1. That, I think, would be COOL. The thing that totally irked me about the new firearm rules are that, while you may get touch AC within the first range increment, the first range increment BLOWS. 20 feet with a pistol? Really? 40 with a freaking musket? Both of those are within anybody's charge distance unless they're a halfling or a gnome (in HEAVY ARMOR)!
Honestly, the range bugged me more than any other problem the system had, including the prices.
Adding an extra 25 feet (by 18th level) feels so much more like a "gunslinger" ability, rather than an old fighter ability that got ported over.
Want your gunslinger to be brave? Add a deed that adds a bonus to your will saves against fear equal to your current grit. That makes sense to me. It fits into a current mechanic and feels flavorfully correct.
I'm also for selectable Deeds, since as they stand now all gunslingers are very same-y. The hallmark, in my opinion, of Pathfinder was that each class felt customizable without having to resort to 4e's "I select EVERYTHING" motif.
-The Beast
As for bravery, don't be surprised if it’s replaced in the final gunslinger. It was sort of the last vestige of the fighter left in the gunslinger, and I am looking for a good replacement at about the same level of utility and strength.
As for the selectable deeds thing, I think non-selectable deeds actual allows for more opportunistic functionality. Builds where you would select deeds would gravitate toward the more combat effective ones. Giving a mix of combat effect deeds and odd ball deeds, and letting a character pick in play rather than during build actually makes odd ball choices more likely to be used.
In other words, I wanted a class that allowed a character that could respond uncommon situations with a gunslinger's flourish without neglecting its combat effectiveness.
Don't get me wrong. I think bravery is good in its own right. But it's boring, and it's one of the fighter's "things." This is supposed to be its own class now. What the hell is it doing with a major fighter ability?
I was honestly hoping for something along the lines of "improved range" at the same rate. Like 5 feet per +1. That, I think, would be COOL. The thing that totally irked me about the new firearm rules are that, while you may get touch AC within the first range increment, the first range increment BLOWS. 20 feet with a pistol? Really? 40 with a freaking musket? Both of those are within anybody's charge distance unless they're a halfling or a gnome (in HEAVY ARMOR)!
Honestly, the range bugged me more than any other problem the system had, including the prices.
Adding an extra 25 feet (by 18th level) feels so much more like a "gunslinger" ability, rather than an old fighter ability that got ported over.
Want your gunslinger to be brave? Add a deed that adds a bonus to your will saves against fear equal to your current grit. That makes sense to me. It fits into a current mechanic and feels flavorfully correct.
I'm also for selectable Deeds, since as they stand now all gunslingers are very same-y. The hallmark, in my opinion, of Pathfinder was that each class felt customizable without having to resort to 4e's "I select EVERYTHING" motif.
-The Beast
I love your point with the 5ft range bonus, I think that would make gunslingers amazing as the go to, I wanna use this class for being awesome with guns. Sure the fighter would do better damage, but at least I can shoot farther than him. I agree with Deeds a optional but the big thing is that would involve a Total class rebuild, meaning at least 2 more playtests for the class, the point of the deeds is all Gunslingers have these abilities, but their are optional things as well, see the gunslinger feats, That you could get, or you could take some more standard feats. I still feel each gunslinger would easily have their own personality with these options, Especially with the low skill points and high skill selection. The different slingers would be Identified by their feat options, gun options, and finally skill options.
Edit: Stephan you said it much better than I did.
Okay so lightning reload thats one, so what you are going with is "See I helped you do the rest", also combat trick is only once since you are using rogue as an example so now the class is over all losing out on bonus feats at later levels.
The big thing is making DEEDS Like talents, Discoveries, Tricks, Rage powers etc... is just that they've done it so much, SO MUCH. They are experimenting with something different. Some of the Deeds the class gets, makes them not need some of the feats that the previous version needed to succeed.
2nd level, the gunslinger could get "quick draw" for free, or go the route with ranger and give a list a few a choosable feats, for variety.
using combat trick alleviates the lack of bonus feats and allows for a more customizable 'slinger..
alot of the multiple deeds per level can be options to take that as a deed or other deeds available, id have go through the list for other deeds that should just be class abilities, like lightening reload and dead shot and separate others that should be choosable, like targeting and no name and then some more should be developed.
I'd like to see a deed that allowed gunslingers to use bombs like alchemists.
thing about something a game system as used alot is it is a staple, by which the game has a basis, talents, discoveries, tricks, talents, arcana, deeds, they should all work the same.
As for bravery, don't be surprised if it’s replaced in the final gunslinger. It was sort of the last vestige of the fighter left in the gunslinger, and I am looking for a good replacement at about the same level of utility and strength.As for the selectable deeds thing, I think non-selectable deeds actual allows for more opportunistic functionality. Builds where you would select deeds would gravitate toward the more combat effective ones. Giving a mix of combat effect deeds and odd ball deeds, and letting a character pick in play rather than during build actually makes odd ball choices more likely to be...
I understand your design choice, and it does give the gunslinger a different feel than the rest of the classes. I'm just commenting that I think it does give a bit of "same-ness" to the class, since its only truly selectable abilities are the free gun at level 1 and the bonus feats later. If Bravery was replaced with something similar to the "innovation" idea that's been thrown around on the v1 boards (modifications to the gunslinger's guns, such as sights, extra barrels, etc.), that would add something more fun and customizable, I think, to the class.
Just one man's opinion, though. And it is only day 1 of the beta, so take it all with a grain of salt until real playtest data comes out.
-The Beast
2nd level, the gunslinger could get "quick draw" for free, or go the route with ranger and give a list a few a choosable feats, for variety.using combat trick alleviates the lack of bonus feats and allows for a more customizable 'slinger..
alot of the multiple deeds per level can be options to take that as a deed or other deeds available, id have go through the list for other deeds that should just be class abilities, like lightening reload and dead shot and separate others that should be choosable, like targeting and no name and then some more should be developed.
I'd like to see a deed that allowed gunslingers to use bombs like alchemists.
thing about something a game system as used alot is it is a staple, by which the game has a basis, talents, discoveries, tricks, talents, arcana, deeds, they should all work the same.
My reply See Stephans post above. That sums up my Side of the argument.
The big thing is making DEEDS Like talents, Discoveries, Tricks, Rage powers etc... is just that they've done it so much, SO MUCH.
And they should use it MORE. It's an elegant system. If they want to expand a class, they only need to make more discoveries, tricks, rage powers, talents, or deeds.
The way it is written, expansion possibilities become MUCH more limited. You end up stuck with a whole bunch of archetypes and similar variant rules which likely come with a bunch of abilities you didn't want.
The big thing is making DEEDS Like talents, Discoveries, Tricks, Rage powers etc... is just that they've done it so much, SO MUCH.And they should use it MORE. It's an elegant system. If they want to expand a class, they only need to make more discoveries, tricks, rage powers, talents, or deeds.
The way it is written, expansion possibilities become MUCH more limited. You end up stuck with a whole bunch of archetypes and similar variant rules which likely come with a bunch of abilities you didn't want.
Or they do what they are already starting to do, and make them feats?
As for bravery, don't be surprised if it’s replaced in the final gunslinger. It was sort of the last vestige of the fighter left in the gunslinger, and I am looking for a good replacement at about the same level of utility and strength.As for the selectable deeds thing, I think non-selectable deeds actual allows for more opportunistic functionality. Builds where you would select deeds would gravitate toward the more combat effective ones. Giving a mix of combat effect deeds and odd ball deeds, and letting a character pick in play rather than during build actually makes odd ball choices more likely to be used.
In other words, I wanted a class that allowed a character that could respond uncommon situations with a gunslinger's flourish without neglecting its combat effectiveness.
That's good to hear.
And I really like the whole general approach you're taking with the gunslinger. I like the Touch AC angle with guns and the general idea of deeds being this kind of flexible and adaptable approach to a situation.
What seems to be a stumbling block are the deeds themselves. They are, in essence, spells for the most part. The problem is that from levels 1 through 6 they feel like cantrips or 1st level spells at best, and they are all pretty much situational.
Being situational is fine, but I think you'd need to greatly expand the list of deeds available, so that the likelyhood of something situational coming up in any given combat is probable. The problem I suspect though is that you have a page count and thus you can't make pages and pages of deeds, plus having players pouring over pages of deeds for each of their turns isn't really the most fun for anyone.
I keep turning to the Alchemist as a good contrast. He's got his blasty "gun" with his bombs, but he's also very adaptable with his extracts. With just a little bit of money he can quickly get his whole list of formulary covered, which makes him very batman-ish, while also being a great...
The whole point is that the fighter outfights the gunslinger, but the fighter can't do the Gunslingers nifty little tricks.
The whole point is that the fighter outfights the gunslinger, but the fighter can't do the Gunslingers nifty little tricks.
Like disarm the fighter of his primary weapon with a gun shot. :D
I understand your design choice, and it does give the gunslinger a different feel than the rest of the classes. I'm just commenting that I think it does give a bit of "same-ness" to the class, since its only truly selectable abilities are the free gun at level 1 and the bonus feats later. If Bravery was replaced with something similar to the "innovation" idea that's been thrown around on the v1 boards (modifications to the gunslinger's guns, such as sights, extra barrels, etc.), that would add something more fun and customizable, I think, to the class.
Just one man's opinion, though. And it is only day 1 of the beta, so take it all with a grain of salt until real playtest data comes out.
-The Beast
I personally woul like to see some incorporation of the innovation idea from the v.1.4.0. It would add some variation to the class, and allow for player selection to customize their character more. They should beable to push firearms beyond the versions available to the common folk.
I'd also like to see a few more deeds added (not too many, if they stay with the concrete feature style instead of the Rage power style).
The whole point is that the fighter outfights the gunslinger, but the fighter can't do the Gunslingers nifty little tricks.Yeah, that's fine. The fighter should be just pounding away, I don't think I'm advocating for anything like the Gunslinger being better.
The problem is that right now the Gunslinger's nifty tricks might not be needed at all in any given combat. The most likely scenario is that he's just going to be using grit to clear his gun, since statistically you're going to be misfiring every two to four encounters. Basically once or twice a day he's almost guaranteed to need to clear jams. And that clearing is either going to cost him an attack, or he's going to have to spend grit points to try and avoid being too far behind in actively fighting.
In those first six levels the best you're doing is one shot a round with a pistol as long as you only do 5' steps. At best you're doing 1d8 +3 or 5 (assuming point blank shot and deadly aim). In a typical combat he'll get off 2 or 3 shots.
The Fighter Archer is in those first six levels going to be able to fire twice per round, doing 1d8 + 2/4(DA)+2(WS)+2/3(Str composite bow). In a typical fight he'll get off 8 to 10 shots.
Even with the touch attack, the gunslinger just can't keep up, so tossing him some more bonus feats isn't going to make him get any closer to out fighting the fighter.
Exactly The fighter is out fighting the Gunslinger, which is no longer a Fighter archetype. The updated gunslinger, I view as more a Rogue replacement, not a fighter replacement. You are a backup combatant not the head guy. So the head guy will be out damaging you obviously, but you will be support damage, and support in other ways with the higher level deeds.
I'm not sure what special things the Gunslinger is getting that makes him support any more than the Fighter. I seem to recall a lot of bleeding, stunning, pushing, disarming, tripping stuff that a Fighter can do with low and high level feat chains (some on a crit, some without damage, etc). There's fighter archetypes that allow some of these to be done with ranged weapons.
So if the Gunslinger is providing similar "support" and less damage than a Fighter, then he needs something else. Pushing an unattended item 15 feet isn't going to cut it.
Rangers have full BAB, two good saves, and still has things like spells and 6 skillpoints per level, along with their support damage.
Perhaps the Gunslinger should be getting more from his skills, as well as something to replace bravery.
I'm not sure what special things the Gunslinger is getting that makes him support any more than the Fighter. I seem to recall a lot of bleeding, stunning, pushing, disarming, tripping stuff that a Fighter can do with low and high level feat chains (some on a crit, some without damage, etc). There's fighter archetypes that allow some of these to be done with ranged weapons.
So if the Gunslinger is providing similar "support" and less damage than a Fighter, then he needs something else. Pushing an unattended item 15 feet isn't going to cut it.
Rangers have full BAB, two good saves, and still has things like spells and 6 skillpoints per level, along with their support damage.
Perhaps the Gunslinger should be getting more from his skills, as well as something to replace bravery.
I do agree with they need more from skills, also its been stated that its 99% fact that bravery will change between now and UC's release.
Yeah, my wording didn't come out right, but I was meaning to refer to the comment by Stephen that he's likely changing Bravery into something more Gunslinger specific.
Yeah, my wording didn't come out right, but I was meaning to refer to the comment by Stephen that he's likely changing Bravery into something more Gunslinger specific.
Ah right right, But yes I agree that the gunslinger needs more, I disagree with what was being stated before which is They need bonus feats. I think thats just lame.
Ah right right, But yes I agree that the gunslinger needs more, I disagree with what was being stated before which is They need bonus feats. I think thats just lame.Yeah, my wording didn't come out right, but I was meaning to refer to the comment by Stephen that he's likely changing Bravery into something more Gunslinger specific.
Indeed. A bit of a cop-out.
-The Beast
