Do you no longer get any ammo for free at first level?
Also, is there a weight attached to ammo?
When is states your gun is a battered gun, does this mean broken?
Do you no longer get any ammo for free at first level?
Also, is there a weight attached to ammo?
When is states your gun is a battered gun, does this mean broken?
1> nope no free ammo at first level, but you can make it for cheep
2> nope
3> yes but only in the hands of other creatures, in your hands it works normally
Do you no longer get any ammo for free at first level?
Also, is there a weight attached to ammo?
When is states your gun is a battered gun, does this mean broken?
1> nope no free ammo at first level, but you can make it for cheep
2> nope
3> yes but only in the hands of other creatures, in your hands it works normally
Correct on all three accounts. Thanks for answering the questions.
Thank you very much! That's what I needed.
Do smaller sized guns use have reduced ammo costs? If not why reduce the damage for smaller weapons? They're apparently using the same sized bullet and the same amount of black powder.
No they do not, just like you don't spend less money for small versions of any weapon or ammo. We are not going to make an exception for firearms.
as with RL firearms and ammo, the smaller rounds may be rarer, and thus law of supply and demand. So more material in a more common bullet/charge averages out to the same cost of smaller amount of powder and bullet, yet they are rarer so cost more per the amount.
For any actual gunslinger and not a hack, this isn't really an issue.
Sure, you could say that bullet sizes are different and thus rarer for smaller guns, but exactly how does this explain the powder? If it truly is a smaller gun then you'd use less powder
No, you'd put more powder in per bullet size. The shorter barrel robs a lot of power from the bullet, and the bullet is smaller. Therefore, you're taking a double dip on power (damage = mass * velocity). So, to compensate, you either have to put an overlong barrel on, or pump the powder up to make up for it.
Barrel length doesn't add power, it adds accuracy. If anything Barrel length reduces power.
Length can add accuracy, if the barrrel is rifled. A rifled barrel increases accuracy by spinning the bullet. However, if you shorten the barrel too much, the gasses escape before they can build the bullet's speed up. This is why revolvers typically have less range than a semi-auto, they release a great deal of the gasses at the cylinder, rather than at the end of the barrel.
It's a balancing act. And, if the barrels are not rifled (which is rarely the case with early firearms), then the bullets come out wildly erratic, regardless of barrel length.
guy,
A longer barrel gives more time for the gases created by the powder (charge)ignition to build up behind the bullet (load).
So in a rifle (longer barrel) the same charge and load is going to result in more power, velocity and distance than in a pistol (shorter barrel)
Likewise you see the same ratio in longer barreled pistols (say a 3" 44 mag vs a 6 5/8" 44 mag).
Yes the longer barrel also adds more accuracy, due to more of an opportunity to get rifling into effect, however inside certain shooting circles, marksmen dislike the longer barrels on pistols for accuracy because of the increased site radius on a longer barreled pistol and so, the long barreled pistols have have an erroneous reputation for being more accurate, but their increased 'power' over their short barreled cousins is well documented.
If you are trying to get the same distance out of a smaller, shorter barreled gun, even with the smaller load, you would indeed need a larger charge, in proportion to the load, so it is very likely the smaller weapon would need the same charge it's bigger cousin requires.
You're not going to make exceptions for the gunslinger...except for them being able to call shots to body parts? Or when they sunder locks?
You're not going to make exceptions for the gunslinger...except for them being able to call shots to body parts? Or when they sunder locks?
They're bringing out called shot rules in UC
so you're saying that a 22 uses the same amount shot as a 7.62? I'm no gun expert but I have to say that sounds fishy to me.
*sigh*
Nobody said that.
Here, let me explain again.
A 22 is a 5.6mm round. It comes in .22 SR and .22 LR (there's more, but let's look at those two). You can load a .22 SR and a .22 LR into a bolt action 22 rifle (I had one, fired both out of it). The .22 SR is basically a small pistol load, it uses 30 grain load. The LR uses 40 grain load and a slightly longer lead bullet.
If you take the .22 SR and .22 LR, the .22 SR is about 10mm long (if I remember correctly). So about 2/3rds the length of the .22 LR. The .LR only has 10 more grains of powder (1/3rd more) and 50% more mass than the .22 SR. Yet, it does much more damage, because it's heavier, and usually fired in longer barrels where the gas has more time to push it out. I've fired both the SR and the LR from my bolt action rifle. Despite having the same barrel length, the SR wouldn't penetrate an inch of pine at 50 yards, because the bullet was just too light (this despite having almost the same powder as the bigger bullet). The bigger LR would go about 2 inches into a chunk of pine, with only 10 more grain. That's because the additional powder got the heavier bullet up to speed along the length of the barrel.
If you were to fire both the LR and SR from a 3 inch barrel, they'd have almost identicle range and penetration, because the gasses would escape too quickly for the heavier round to get any benefit of them. What you'd have to do is put 60 grain in it and hope the gun didn't explode from the pressure to get the same penetration at 25 yards you had at 50 with the longer barrel and less powder.
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Stephen Radney-MacFarland , Paper Cartiges are not put into muzzle loading firearms. the paper cartrige is taken out of the catrige case on the belt torn open with the teeth and the contents poured down the barell and then ramed with the ramrod or tap loaded by stiking the butt of the rifle or musket on the ground.
So usiing a paper cartrige should not increase the misfire chance.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland , Paper Cartiges are not put into muzzle loading firearms. the paper cartrige is taken out of the catrige case on the belt torn open with the teeth and the contents poured down the barell and then ramed with the ramrod or tap loaded by stiking the butt of the rifle or musket on the ground.So usiing a paper cartrige should not increase the misfire chance.
+1. Absolutely right! THey aren't like a metal cartridge, but are instead a compact single use bullet and powder dose loading tool.
They're bringing out called shot rules in UC
Oh dear God.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland , Paper Cartiges are not put into muzzle loading firearms. the paper cartrige is taken out of the catrige case on the belt torn open with the teeth and the contents poured down the barell and then ramed with the ramrod or tap loaded by stiking the butt of the rifle or musket on the ground.So usiing a paper cartrige should not increase the misfire chance.
Yeah, I know how they work.
It is the quickness of the loading or the alchemical concoction that grants the misfire chance, not shoving the cartridge down the muzzle.
They're bringing out called shot rules in UCOh dear God.
Why "oh dear God"? Every non-core book in existence is optional. You don't have to use either the Gunslinger or the called shot if you don't want.
ok.. so here is what we do.. go to the mythbusters and have them figure this out... with the powder/barrel thing.. i mean its not the size of the barrel its how the gunslinger uses his gun right...
Why "oh dear God"? Every non-core book in existence is optional. You don't have to use either the Gunslinger or the called shot if you don't want.They're bringing out called shot rules in UCOh dear God.
Nobody ever gets called shots right. If Paizo doesn't get it right in Ultimate Combat than it's just a waste of space.
In the end, you are only ever left with trap rules that sadistic GMs like to throw at their players (since called shots invariably benefit the NPCs/monster more than the PCs).
Why "oh dear God"? Every non-core book in existence is optional. You don't have to use either the Gunslinger or the called shot if you don't want.They're bringing out called shot rules in UCOh dear God.Nobody ever gets called shots right. If Paizo doesn't get it right in Ultimate Combat than it's just a waste of space.
In the end, you are only ever left with trap rules that sadistic GMs like to throw at their players (since called shots invariably benefit the NPCs/monster more than the PCs).
How would you do called shots?
Not that they're doing called shots as a universal mechanic anyway. As is the gunslinger is the only class with access to it and only in a very specific fashion.
How would you do called shots?Why "oh dear God"? Every non-core book in existence is optional. You don't have to use either the Gunslinger or the called shot if you don't want.They're bringing out called shot rules in UCOh dear God.Nobody ever gets called shots right. If Paizo doesn't get it right in Ultimate Combat than it's just a waste of space.
In the end, you are only ever left with trap rules that sadistic GMs like to throw at their players (since called shots invariably benefit the NPCs/monster more than the PCs).
I wouldn't. That's the point.
We have a version of called shots in Combat Maneuvers, which is how the Gunslinger emulates it for the most part (disarm, trip).
We now have Dirty Trick, and already had things like Deadly Aim, Power Attack... all sorts of "cause an effect" or "create more damage at the cost of accuracy".
As long as they don't get crazier than the rules we already have, I think it can work.
In the end, you are only ever left with trap rules that sadistic GMs like to throw at their players (since called shots invariably benefit the NPCs/monster more than the PCs).
.... As a GM I find that completely wrong in my experience. Why take the time to make called shots unless its plot relevant? (as, actually, I will do in my upcoming campagn; Ironically it does benefit the PCs and one of the villains more than any other side) Also its just as much of a mechanic as Word of Power are, and I wouldn't be surprised if Called Shots become less powerful in terms of damage than the regular attacks (IE, hitting an arm does less damage then a regular, torso attack).
....Yet, it does much more damage, because it's heavier, and usually fired in longer barrels where the gas has more time to push it out.
This would be my explanation for lesser damage. Shorter barrel, less punch. Muskets and pistols use the same bullets too, but their damage is different for this reason.
I am sure enterprising halfling gunsmiths saw that human sized bullets were already on the market and decided to make guns that could use that ammunition rather than being saddled with a smaller round for the sake of proprietary size differences (and do even less damage).
ok.. so here is what we do.. go to the mythbusters and have them figure this out... with the powder/barrel thing.. i mean its not the size of the barrel its how the gunslinger uses his gun right...
there is no point in mythbusters busting something that isn't a myth but is already fact. there is so much data on gun barrel length, fps, compression and reload data it's mind boggling.
Called shots in my campaigns usually work like this:
Call the target full attack action -- use the AC of the creature + size bonus for the called target (eyes are usually fine sized, while hands are diminutive, arms tiny (as are heads), etc).
On a hit deal "damage" instead of this damage being applied it becomes the DC for a fortitude save.
Depending on how badly the fortitude save is failed a status effect is applied.
Failure is usually counted off by "just failed" (i.e. 1~4 points) "failed" (5~8 points) "seriously failed" (9+ points).
Just Failed usually amounts to stuff dropped, or the dazed, sickened, or prone condition being applied. Failed is usually more serious but not fight ending while seriously failed can just about end the fight. Failing the save on a natural 1 typically ends the fight (or if the point of the attack was something else the attack fully succeeds).
I am not sure I like the fact that you cant start with ammunition for your gun. If you play in a campaign that doesnt have a lot of downtime early on those crafting rules wont mean a thing. Sure you can craft for cheap, but even if you had a paladins starting gold (175 average) you are looking at having maybe a dozen shots of to start the game. You dont need to buy your gun, but you still need armor, basic equipment and probably a melee weapon for backup as well. That is what, 3 maybe 4 combats worth? How many campaigns have a full day of downtime (which you need in order to make any ammunition) after the first day of the campaign?
How many even give you an opportunity to resupply after only a single day?
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Paper Cartridge:
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1. Cost: 12 gp.
Can these be used with a standard Pistol, does the reduction in loading time stack w/ the rapid reload feat?
IE, can I reload a Standard (early firearm) pistol as a free action w/ rapid reload, and a paper Cartridge?
1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.
1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.
But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.
1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.
aren't you talking about the same period of time spell casters need to rest and rememorize spells? Isn't that what it is meant to emmulate?
+1. Absolutely right! THey aren't like a metal cartridge, but are instead a compact single use bullet and powder dose loading tool.
Stephen Radney-MacFarland , Paper Cartiges are not put into muzzle loading firearms. the paper cartrige is taken out of the catrige case on the belt torn open with the teeth and the contents poured down the barell and then ramed with the ramrod or tap loaded by stiking the butt of the rifle or musket on the ground.So usiing a paper cartrige should not increase the misfire chance.
While Stephen Radney-MacFarland already addressed this, there were paper cartridges similar to metal ones that were used in breech loading rifles and shotguns. These rounds were effectively caseless, leaving behind no real evidence (unlike metal cartridges).
As a houserule, it might be worthwhile to allow this type of cartridge to be used with advanced firearms. The weapon would gain a misfire rating (due to the poorer quality of the ammo) at the cost of being cheaper to buy/make.
aren't you talking about the same period of time spell casters need to rest and rememorize spells? Isn't that what it is meant to emmulate?1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.
Is it? I do believe martial characters like the gunslinger still need to rest do they not? Did i miss the removal of that need somewhere?
Is it? I do believe martial characters like the gunslinger still need to rest do they not? Did i miss the removal of that need somewhere?aren't you talking about the same period of time spell casters need to rest and rememorize spells? Isn't that what it is meant to emmulate?1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.
and spell casters need to rest as well, learn new spells, etc etc.
If there is no time for that (Im assuming casters dont just 'poof' get new spells) how do your casters do what they do? Find spell books and scrolls? Well you can find ammo or the makings for such as treasure as well. Otherwise you'd have a 7th level caster who only knows first level spells, because 'there was no down time' to learn new ones.
Is it? I do believe martial characters like the gunslinger still need to rest do they not? Did i miss the removal of that need somewhere?aren't you talking about the same period of time spell casters need to rest and rememorize spells? Isn't that what it is meant to emmulate?1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.and spell casters need to rest as well, learn new spells, etc etc.
If there is no time for that (Im assuming casters dont just 'poof' get new spells) how do your casters do what they do? Find spell books and scrolls? Well you can find ammo or the makings for such as treasure as well. Otherwise you'd have a 7th level caster who only knows first level spells, because 'there was no down time' to learn new ones.
Only the wizard(and other spellbook arcane casters) needs to take any time to get new spells, and as written that is only for spells beyond the 2 per level he gets as he levels up. He also starts with all the spells he needs for the first level of play. Does he want more? Ofcourse but he doesnt NEED it.
A gunslinger can start the game with enough ammunition for about 1 normal day of combat (3 to 4 combats). After that he is out of ammunition and cannot use his primary weapon until he has an entire 8 hours (besides resting) to create new ammunition and enough gold and resources to do it or finds rather valuable treasure in the form of ammunition. This is the first day of the adventure, not within the first few levels.
Yes the wizard needs more downtime then everyone else but they are not completely hamstrung if they dont get it. 8 hours of rest and 1 hour of prep before setting off in the morning is a normal schedule for adventurers. A gunslinger needs 8 hours to make ammunition in addition to the time he takes to rest within the first day of adventuring.
Is it? I do believe martial characters like the gunslinger still need to rest do they not? Did i miss the removal of that need somewhere?aren't you talking about the same period of time spell casters need to rest and rememorize spells? Isn't that what it is meant to emmulate?1.2 gp per shot for paper cartridges -- so 50 shots at 60 gold pieces in one day with no check. Should be plenty to see you through the start of things. If you need check with the GM to see if you can do the magic item crafting thing where you can work 4 hours an evening to get 2 hours worth of work. At that rate you would get 250 gp worth of shots done a day, or 20 paper shots.But you still need the actual day to do the crafting, by my understanding that is 8 hours. You need that essentially after your first day of adventuring (hoping you got some gold in the first day and are somewhere you can buy materials to do the crafting). This does not work for a whole mess of campaigns I have played in.and spell casters need to rest as well, learn new spells, etc etc.
If there is no time for that (Im assuming casters dont just 'poof' get new spells) how do your casters do what they do? Find spell books and scrolls? Well you can find ammo or the makings for such as treasure as well. Otherwise you'd have a 7th level caster who only knows first level spells, because 'there was no down time' to learn new ones.Only the wizard(and other spellbook arcane casters) needs to take any time to get new spells, and as written that is only for spells beyond the 2 per level he gets as he levels up. He also starts with all the spells he needs for the first level of play. Does he want more? Ofcourse but he doesnt NEED it.
A gunslinger can start the game with enough ammunition for about 1 normal day of combat (3 to 4 combats). After that he is out of ammunition and cannot use his...
so ammend the rules with an assembly line deed that lets him create more ammo in a shorter period of time, that for anyone else increases the chance of misfire if used. this allows the gunslinger to make more ammo, faster and cheaper, but can't effectively sell it (without a good bluff and screwing over the guy who bought it).
Gunslinger should be able to make new bullets, oil and clean weapons and sleep in the same clock the spell casters do.
so ammend the rules with an assembly line deed that lets him create more ammo in a shorter period of time, that for anyone else increases the chance of misfire if used. this allows the gunslinger to make more ammo, faster and cheaper, but can't effectively sell it (without a good bluff and screwing over the guy who bought it).
Gunslinger should be able to make new bullets, oil and clean weapons and sleep in the same clock the spell casters do.
Yes they should, but as it stands they cannot, hence the problem in my eyes. But is still not a perfect solution, as it means a gunslinger needs to either find, or be in a place he can purchase the means to get ammunition just about every day of adventuring untill he is at least half way to level 2.
A level 1 gunslinger starts off a game. He is heading into the wilderness on an adventure. He gets studded leather armor, a back pack, bedroll, waterskin, rope, a few days rations and other assorted gear. After that he has money for somewhere around a dozen rounds of ammunition (assuming a gunslinger starts with the highest current starting wealth of 175 gp on average).
He sets off adventuring with his companions, and on their way they get into several encounters, in which he expends all 12 of his current rounds of ammunition. In the process though the party finds gold and other valuables, so the gunslinger has wealth to do his crafting, however he is also in the middle of the wilderness, with no means to translate this wealth into ammunition even if he has the time to craft (or has some kind of fast crafting house rule).
On day 2 of the wilderness adventure, the gunslinger is officially a glorified npc warrior, with an improvised club...
Because it's kind of hard to use a musket that's as large as you are.
Can't a gunslinger craft bullets at 10% of the cost at first level?
So, if you created black powder x30 and firearms bullet x30, wouldn't that be 33gp?
That, at least to me, seems pretty sufficient.
I tend to read things wrong a lot so if I'm misunderstanding the gunsmithing rules somewhere, please let me know so I can get it right.
Paper Cartridge:
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1. Cost: 12 gp.Can these be used with a standard Pistol, does the reduction in loading time stack w/ the rapid reload feat?
IE, can I reload a Standard (early firearm) pistol as a free action w/ rapid reload, and a paper Cartridge?
I have the same question with Advanced Firearms. It takes a move action to load them.
With the Rapid Reload feat, does that make it a free action?
I would have to say they both would be a free action, but that's just my opinion.
I'm not sure if you can "stack"(or whatever you want to call it) such actions or not.
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Paper Cartridge:
This simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet increases the misfire value by 1. Cost: 12 gp.Can these be used with a standard Pistol, does the reduction in loading time stack w/ the rapid reload feat?
IE, can I reload a Standard (early firearm) pistol as a free action w/ rapid reload, and a paper Cartridge?
I have the same question with Advanced Firearms. It takes a move action to load them.
With the Rapid Reload feat, does that make it a free action?
I would have to say they both would be a free action, but that's just my opinion.
I'm not sure if you can "stack"(or whatever you want to call it) such actions or not.
Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a fullround action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable—the misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases by at least 1.
Let me re-phrase.
Would a Pistol whos normal reloading itme has been reduced from a standard action, to a move action via the Rapid reload feat, have its reload time reduced to a free action via the use of a Paper cartridge.