I don't know how often this is noticed, but higher point buys permit larger battles more easily. Yes, the party can defeat the great masses of bad guys more easily but that's the point. You can include similar-CR creatures in large numbers instead of being restricted to CR -3 or -4 creatures to have a 'fair' horde to fight.
This depends on a lot of variables. A large number of fireball-spewing, mirror-imaged, dispelling level 5 wizards can out damage a level 5 party's healing capacity. Even massive Con/Dex typically won't save you here. The key is that healing, hp, and spell access (you get spell X at level Y) are level-based. If something does an attack you aren't appropriately leveled to handle, even a small number of opponents can be pretty dangerous.
Of course, 3.X had some band-aids for this, like mass resist energy and mass conviction in the Spell Compendium. But like most "quick fixes", something that fixes one situation breaks several other scenarios.
Regarding stats and difficulty and feeling heroic (because that seems to be what this thread is about)...
The thing about feeling "heroic" shouldn't lie solely in your stats.
If a GM is running a compelling game with appropriate story elements and challenges, and players are fully engaged and interactive with each other and the GM, a 10 point buy character will feel as heroic for his accomplishments as a 50 point buy character... perhaps even more so, if a 50 point buy character didn't work very hard to get where he is.
Of course, the corollary is that if the game isn't well designed, and the players not engaged, the players won't feel heroic--again, regardless of their stats. It is more likely of course that the 10 point buy character is going to feel ineffective, and the 50 point buy character feels like everything is pointless because it's all a cakewalk no matter what they do---but depending on how things are designed, things could well be too easy for the 10 point buy guy and too hard for the 50 point buy guy (because of course the GM could be the type to say "SURE you can have 50 point buy" and then attack the party with 20 Tarrasques (never mind there's supposed to be one), 10 greater wyrms, 5 pit fiends, and a partridge in a pear tree. (Damned tree...)
(It's interesting that someone brought up Exalted, because I played in an enormously frustrating game of Exalted where the GM felt we could tear through most encounters--we were demigods, after all--so he kept attacking us with creatures that seemed to have insanely high soak (unbypassable damage reduction, basically) and combat became disheartening and lengthy and frustrating--and EVERY SINGLE COMBAT was like that. For a game designed to make you feel like a god, we ended up feeling like worthless peasants. But I also feel the GM's dilemma--he couldn't figure out how to make something that would give us some trouble without making things impossible. And I know if we ripped through everything easily, we would have had a different problem, not a solution. Of COURSE it's a matter of finding balance. But that can be easier said than done. If you have a GM that doesn't know how to deal with a system where being godlike is the point, then likely godlike stats aren't really going to get you anywhere.)
The only "trick" to 15-20 point buy versus any other stat array is that with the game and adventures as written, it is for a GM to design/run a campaign that poses sufficient challenges to the party in such a way that the party, indeed, FEELS heroic for having overcome them.
If you leave the challenges as written/suggested but run a low point buy game, the frustration factor is likely to amp up as people will fail more often at a given attempt. If you leave the challenges as written/suggested but run a high point buy game, the players might have fun at first ripping through dragons like wet tissue paper, but for most folks, that gets old and boring, very, very fast.
In short: if you're not feeling "heroic" enough, I would not blame the numbers. I would talk to your GM.
And for that matter, where you would blame the numbers, don't just look at stats. There are ways to boost attacks, spells, skills without ever touching stats. I'm playing a character where a ROLLED *barely* 15 point buy equivalent (and most everyone else averaged around equivalent to 20) and yet I'm having a blast because I've made sure her skills and fighting skill is where I want them, and I focus on where to apply what I'm good at--and play up her weaknesses as fun quirks of the character, not something meant to drag her down. I FEEL like a hero because I play my character like she believes she is one.
I think I just lost the game. o_O
Those sentiments are all well and good, and I'm fully capable of adapting to whatever social situation is at hand and having fun as it's collectively understood, still...What I hunger for, what I desire after 30 years of RPGing, is not the old standard of fickle fate, "them's the breaks", slow plodding rise to greatness.
What I want is a manifest destiny of awesomness. Every character I want to play comes with the assumption that I am THE ONE, the divine hand meant to save the world and undo the calcified traditions that hold back the free peoples from gaining victory.
If I may make a suggestion, play Exalted. The entire game is based around that premise of a "manifest destiny of awesome" as you put it. It's a great game, give it a whirl sometime.
-Idle
Just my two cents:
When you have characters with lower stats (15 point buy), it's much more satisfying when you get some buffs, since you don't have huge bonuses from your abilities.
On the other side of the coin, even a -2 penalty really hurts and stuff like higher ground, flank etc starts being more important.
So far my group's been going by rolling 10 sets of 4d6, and keeping the top six results to be distributed as they please. Any score below 10 gets rerolled off the bat.
...I think I'm gonna just go with Standard or 20 pt. buy next time.
Just my two cents:
When you have characters with lower stats (15 point buy), it's much more satisfying when you get some buffs, since you don't have huge bonuses from your abilities.
On the other side of the coin, even a -2 penalty really hurts and stuff like higher ground, flank etc starts being more important.
It really is a much larger deal when you start looking at all the little details. In a single encounter, it may not make a difference. Over a long-term campaign, huge starting ability scores really do change a lot of things. Perhaps this is why a spell like crushing despair or the enchanter's aura of despair tends to be looked down on. . .
Anything works in any game, regardless of the ridiculousness of the mechanical change, PROVIDED THAT the entire group & GM are ok with it.
Which means that those of you who are deadset against anything varying from the norm are most likely to not have fun. (I do not say won't, because that's obviously fallacious).
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hmm doesnt quite do it in the dex or str department, there really is no way to make spiderman in pathfinder.
Str 50 (Based on his ability to lift ~10 tons over his head)
Dex infinity - 1 (He's probably got one of the highest dex in all of comics)Con 36 (He heals at a very fast rate, he routinely breaks his arm or something and is better in a few days...usually the NEXT day)
Int 17 (He's damn smart, although still well within human range)
Wis 12 (He can occasionally be a bit clueless. Spider-bite obviously gave him somekinda huge bonus to Will saves, though)
Cha 16 (yeah, he's a nerd and a geek. But he's a nerd and a geek who's pulled Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane, Felicia Hardy, and quite a few others)
Which means that those of you who are deadset against anything varying from the norm are most likely to not have fun. (I do not say won't, because that's obviously fallacious).
I think it's typically a GM problem. When you allow the 42 and 62 point buys, the GMs *have* to compensate for it. Failing to do so will break the game wide open. It's not that those advocating baseline are against other people doing what they want. We're against them doing it without thinking and adjusting the game properly. Because then we hear all these players come on the forums complaining about this being broken or that sucking or blah blah blah. What they don't realize is that their GM is giving them a broken game to play. Who wants to play a broken game?
If you're a new GM, stick to 15 point buy. If you're an old pro, you can consider the big point buys or crazy rolling schemes. As long as you know the trouble is coming, you can work to fix it. The problem is assuming there's no trouble at all.
The impact of initial stats on actual play begins to diminish over time though. Sure a 20 in a primary stat like strength for a martial class or a caster stat can screw up the expected challenge level but it's also apparent that if you want to you can start with a 20 in your primary stat if you go with a 15-point value.
Really what higher point buys allows is more above average scores. In many cases there aren't a ton of combat features associated with these abilities. For the average fighter a higher intelligence means that he's more rounded because he's got 3-4 skill points per level instead of 1-2. For the average wizard this means that he doesn't need the fighter to carry all his gear at first level. It often means that charisma scores are less likely to be 7s.
These aren't necessarily bad things. If the ultimate problem people have is extreme scores (18+ in a primary stat does change the math to a moderately large degree at low level) then a fixed point array or a completely different point buy formula is needed. As long as it's possible to get 20s at char gen SAD casters, Strength THF builds tend to be the most efficient choice.
While Mok's array is a bit extreme (mainly because it assumes 1 20 automatically) I'm not sure that having all above average stats is necessarily game breaking by any means.
The impact of initial stats on actual play begins to diminish over time though.
When do they start to diminish? Since the game is all about stacking effects to a bigger number, a bigger starting number gives you a bigger number at any given time. But since you can't go beyond base 18 in any starting configuration, the real problem lies in other "non-essential" stats, like making your saves higher.
For instance, do you think it's fair to give a PC a cloak of resistance +2 at level 1? It's only 4,000 gold. It's not that big of a deal.
But what if I told you that when you buy a +1 cloak of resistance, it gets a "free upgrade" to a +3 cloak of resistance. You just got 8,000 gold for free! And that's one item. And the worst part is, it continues to scale. A +4 cloak of resistance becomes an epic item. And so forth. . . it's actually worse to give high starting stats than give the PCs a bunch of free items at the beginning. At least you can take them away/they diminish over time when replaced by an upgrade, etc.
And it applies to other things as well. Giving someone 2 extra Con they wouldn't have in 15 point buy is basically like giving someone the Toughness feat for free (at least post level 3). What happens when you start giving people a bunch of free feats?
What happens when you start giving people a bunch of free feats?It improves the overall play experience? ;)
*shrug* Why didn't the designers just add the extra feats in the first place? Why leave it to the GM to dole them out?
15-point min maxed wizard build
str-7
dex-14
con-14
Int-20
wis-7
cha-7
Yes my will save took a hit but I've got a good dex and a good con which are really nice for supplementing my 20 casting stat. Yeah my will save takes a bit of a hit but I could take the half-elf freebie iron will and recoup that loss.
25-point min maxed wizard build
str-7
dex-16
con-14
int-20
wis-10
cha-7
I my dex is slightly higher so my ranged touch is slightly better, my wisdom is no longer a penalty but con and int (my major source of power) haven't changed.
In effect the increase from 15 to 25 hasn't bought me as much utility.
In contrast 15-point TWF build
Str-18
Dex-15
Con-14
Int-7
Wis-10
Cha-7
I'm somewhat close to the default THF build in terms of defenses and DPR. I'm completely useless outside of combat though.
25-point TWF build
Str-20
Dex-15
Con-14
Int-10
Wis-10
Cha-7
My offense capacity goes up +1, and I no longer have a skill point deficit which makes it easier for me to actually feel somewhat useful out of combat.
The point I'm trying to make is that for the most important stat for a character increasing point buy doesn't really amp up the power level that much. You need to assume that unless the class is horribly MAD that even at 15 PB optimized players are going to be at or close to a 20 in their primary stat. Increasing the point buy from 15 to 25 generally allows them to actually buy back a 7 and maybe supplement a secondary stat or actually have skill points.
I haven't really seen a particular compelling mathematical proof indicating why 25 PB is equivalent to a +1 APL. Yes it's an increase to power but exactly how relevant is that increase?
hmm doesnt quite do it in the dex or str department, there really is no way to make spiderman in pathfinder.Str 50 (Based on his ability to lift ~10 tons over his head)
Dex infinity - 1 (He's probably got one of the highest dex in all of comics)
Con 36 (He heals at a very fast rate, he routinely breaks his arm or something and is better in a few days...usually the NEXT day)
Int 17 (He's damn smart, although still well within human range)
Wis 12 (He can occasionally be a bit clueless. Spider-bite obviously gave him somekinda huge bonus to Will saves, though)
Cha 16 (yeah, he's a nerd and a geek. But he's a nerd and a geek who's pulled Gwen Stacy, Mary Jane, Felicia Hardy, and quite a few others)
yea but you cant make him as level 1 'commoner' peter parker, and then have him get 'stuff' in this game that would make him like that.
I dunno about the chr score tho... I think he just put time and skill points into diplomacy and intimidate. he was also last in line for all those girls after everyone else had ahd their way with them! lol
For the record I really dont like point buy. But if I must...and my DM tells me I do if would like to play.
I prefer 20 point buy for Prime Rec characters and 25 for those that suffer from MAD. So I am really never happy...lol
My DM starts at 15 and you can barter for 20 with a pool of character creation points that result in various effects, like a 0-level class, a Master work weapon or Skill points, but I could never play a Monk for example in his game because I would have to dump too many stats to be able to hit and avoid being hit a reasonable amount for my taste. But I get why he caps it there because he doesnt want a fighter rolling around with 20 strength at first level crushing everyone's fun.
I guess my ideal system would be 25 point buy with no stats above 18 post racial adjustment.
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Sigh
I totally forgot Mok wasn't asking or looking for advice, or even discussion regarding his 42 Point buy he was making a statement. "What I want is a 42 point buy." Well, If your GM and the other players want to hang out with your superhero I suppose that's cool.
Have fun 'Winning'
Sigh
PS What would Deadpool's stats be ... Hehehe
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yea but you cant make him as level 1 'commoner' peter parker, and then have him get 'stuff' in this game that would make him like that.
I dunno about the chr score tho... I think he just put time and skill points into diplomacy and intimidate. he was also last in line for all those girls after everyone else had ahd their way with them! lol
Well, if we were really modeling a superhero game, that would be exactly how it would work. Spider-bite = inherent bonus.
"Last in line for all those girls"? Which ones, exactly? Gwen "dates" Harry and Flash, but that's only because Peter is too busy running around being Spider-Man and worrying about his sick aunt. As soon as Peter shows the slightest interest, Flash and Harry are out the door, never to be thought of again. MJ makes her interest in Peter blatantly clear when she first meets him, and also makes it pretty blatant that she prefers Peter to Flash or Harry. If he hadn't already been with Gwen, MJ wouldn't have given Harry the time of day. And Felicia...if she has any other love interests before she and Peter got together, I don't remember it. Face it, the geek got game!
Because there are multiple play experiences. Haven't I made this clear by now? *shakes fist* :)
Did you ever play a game where there's a section in the back of the rules called "variant rules"? When you say there are multiple play experiences, there certainly are.
There's a base line experience made by following the rules as written.
And there are experiences made by following variant rules.
Pathfinder gives us a standard fantasy game of 15 point buy. It gives us high and epic fantasy, but no real understanding of how to deal with those. Really what they mean is that they turn the game more toward the direction Mok indicated he wanted. However, the knob only goes so far. There is no "super mega epic" fantasy for a reason. Once you turn it too far, the game breaks. You can fix it as a GM. But it still breaks.
The main issue I have with Mok's original idea is that 42 point buy doesn't make the game "super ultra mega" fantasy. It just makes the game broken. You *can* fix it and make it work. But it's not a simple solution to extend the knob's ability to turn. . .
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Sigh
I totally forgot Mok wasn't asking or looking for advice, or even discussion regarding his 42 Point buy he was making a statement. "What I want is a 42 point buy." Well, If your GM and the other players want to hang out with your superhero I suppose that's cool.
Have fun 'Winning'
Sigh
Translation: Mok is playing the game wrong and I don't like it.
PS What would Deadpool's stats be ... HeheheNot overly fond of Deadpool, or very familiar with him. But his charisma would be pretty low. In addition to his face looking like something the cat threw up, he's damned annoying.
Yeah but his wisdom would be massive, after all he is the only person in the entire universe with the ability to percieve the 4th wall.
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The main issue I have with Mok's original idea is that 42 point buy doesn't make the game "super ultra mega" fantasy. It just makes the game broken. You *can* fix it and make it work. But it's not a simple solution to extend the knob's ability to turn. . .
You can still kill a man with a broken sword. :)
15-point min maxed wizard build
str-7 (-4)
dex-14 (5)
con-14 (5)
Int-20 (17)
wis-7 (-4)
cha-7 (-4)Yes my will save took a hit but I've got a good dex and a good con which are really nice for supplementing my 20 casting stat. Yeah my will save takes a bit of a hit but I could take the half-elf freebie iron will and recoup that loss.
25-point min maxed wizard build
str-7
dex-16
con-14
int-20
wis-10
cha-7I my dex is slightly higher so my ranged touch is slightly better, my wisdom is no longer a penalty but con and int (my major source of power) haven't changed.
In effect the increase from 15 to 25 hasn't bought me as much utility.
You gained a feat (Iron Will), effectively one dodge bonus to AC (Dodge), half of another feat (Lightning Reflexes) in the +1 to reflex saves, and you basically gain Weapon Focus (ray) in the +1 to ranged attack rolls (which stacks with the actual Weapon Focus (ray) feat, just like the above abilities stack with Iron Will, Dodge, Lightning Reflexes, etc.). You also gain a +2 bonus to wisdom skills, which is probably featworthy. The +1 to all Dex skills is probably half a feat.
~6 feats? For free?
Whether or not this is "useful" to you depends on how you play the character. The game system doesn't really care.
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Yeah but his wisdom would be massive, after all he is the only person in the entire universe with the ability to percieve the 4th wall.PS What would Deadpool's stats be ... HeheheNot overly fond of Deadpool, or very familiar with him. But his charisma would be pretty low. In addition to his face looking like something the cat threw up, he's damned annoying.
She-Hulk and Squirrel Girl do this fairly often as well. Although SG only does it prior to or after a storyline, as she's contractually obligated to avoid breaking the fourth wall DURING a storyline.
You can still kill a man with a broken sword. :)
Yes, but it's harder to do so q:
Because there are multiple play experiences. Haven't I made this clear by now? *shakes fist* :)Pathfinder has multiple point buy values, and three experience progressions, but I would like to see three complete tiers of play in writing. Something along these lines:
- Low Power = 15 point buy, fewer feats, less wealth
Mid Power = 20 point buy, typical feats, typical wealth
High Power = 32 point buy, more feats, higher wealth
Mok said he likes broken swords.
I don't think he said he wants to play a broken game. He wants the game to support his playstyle. He's breaking the game (with 42 point buy) to support that playstyle. But I don't think he really wants it broken. While I'm sure you could find people who want to play a broken game, most people don't want to play a broken game.
I think he wants a game that works *and* supports his playstyle (:
And that's not easy to make.
Because there are multiple play experiences. Haven't I made this clear by now? *shakes fist* :)Pathfinder has multiple point buy values, and three experience progressions, but I would like to see three complete tiers of play in writing. Something along these lines:Low Power = 15 point buy, fewer feats, less wealth
That method works very well for GURPS, HERO, and a number of other games. Rather than trying to make everyone happy with one level of play, or force lots of people to use house rules, just build it in.
Mid Power = 20 point buy, typical feats, typical wealth
High Power = 32 point buy, more feats, higher wealth
That's a good idea. . .
Even if you were to have a high point buy and grab all of the weak feats, you'd still be way behind on the value that Power Attack provides in the game. Power Attack at 20th level is giving +18 damage to a THW. Weapon Focus at 20th level is still just giving +1 to hit. That kind of system mastery issue is what gums up a lot of the system.
Actually an untyped +2 Iron Will-like feat that stacks with the actual Iron Will feat scales just as well at level 20 than at level 1.
Spell DCs go up (level, items, class abilities, feats, etc).
Saving throws go up (level, items, class abilities, feats, etc).
Anything that gives you an advantage toward one way or another gives you that advantage permanently. All you need with saving throws/DCs is to make the save (or in the case of DCs, have the enemy fail the save). A level 20 wizard with maximum quality gear can expect to evade a spell X% of time. That climbs to X+Y% if you have high point buy, where Y is the amount you are given for free at first level. In that sense, you're flat-out better than the best level 20 wizard possible with 15 point buy.
If anything, that "feat" scales better than Power Attack because you can't take Power Attack twice and get the bonus twice.
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Well I can appreciate the OP's honesty. I don't share his view but I understand it. He wants to be overpowered, he's come to terms with that.
He's better than some of my friends. They want higher point buy in our games but then they want the enemies to be scaled accordingly. At that point why bother? Why not just multiply all damage and hit points by 1000 and leave things otherwise the same?
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Personally, I LIKE characters to have weaknesses BUT if you are unwilling to do so, then 15 point buy will hurt your primary stat. 20 will lets have your massive primary but be average everywhere else. 25 lets you be good at more then one thing and still not have a weakness. Yes a 10 in NOT a weakness despite what some munchkins at my tables may think. Here's the thing, the difference between an optimized 15-25 point buy is pretty much maybe 1 CR...probably less. The difference between a casual gamer's 15-25 point buys is gonna be 2 CR or more. People always assume that the point buy value will be optimized to the teeth...and that just isn't the case for quite a large portion of the gaming community. I know people if give 15 point buy to make a wizard will do a stat array of str 10, dex 12, con 12, int 15, wis 12, cha 12. Amp that to 25 and you have str 10, dex 12, con 12, int 18, wis 12, cha 12. In such a case, 25 point buys over 15 does increase the power of even SAD characters due to player choice...silly thing called free will and all. However, anything above 25 won't help the wizard very much, but will help any MAD character still. 18 in str and con is 34 points right there. So while I don't agree the idea of certain point buys being certain +CR, to say that the point value doesn't matter because you can tweek the hell out of 15 points isn't exactlt a valid argument either.
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I could have a character who's con is 16 and have in said history that he can't handle alot of alcohol despite having a +3 to his fortitude throws from a 16 con.
a character with the attractive feat, can end up being stalked in a small village( or just about anywhere really) by a complete stranger who is just to bashful to meet the pc... hehe or worst.
you could have a character named Peter Griffonsbane and be arrested by the twon's local law becuase an npc named Peter Griffon punched the mayor in the face.
1) Doesn't make sense mechanically. You can say you were an alcoholic...but with 16 con, your NOT a lightweight without a mechanical penalty.
2 and 3) is DM dickery...not a character weakness.
So what I am hearing is that a 5% variance in power, which is the effect of raising each stat 2 points, breaks the game. Amazing. I have been playing D&D 3.x and now Pathfinder for years and didn't even know it was broken.
So if a Fighter starts with a 18 Str and has a 90% chance to hit an average AC, that's okay. But if he has a 20 Str and now has a 95% chance to hit (and will do 1 more point of damage when he does) it is broken.
Or if a Wizard's spell can only be resisted 20% of the time instead of 25% of the time because his Int went from 18 to 20, it's broken.
Can only make that save on a 20? Well, now you can make it on a 19 or 20. Broken.
Yep, I see that.