Where's my kusarigama?!

[Buba HoTep]

Ok just want to start by saying the Ninja is fine...

Until I see my Magus compared to a Ninja and go WTF?! Either the Ninja needs some nerfing or the Magus needs a little love.
Both of those need to be done IMO.

OK - Onto my big issue! It was 1991, and my very first D&D character was a 1/2 Dragon Ninja (yeah, I know...) who specialized in the kusarigama.
Seriously one of the coolest ninja weapons out there.

So why no kusarigama for the playtest or otherwise?!?!?!?

It's an iconic weapon that would be used well by ninjas.

Here's my idea;

- Kama end, 1d6 damage (medium), 19-20 x2, slashing.
- Weight end, 1d4 damage (medium), x2, bludgeoning.
- Double weapon
- 10' Reach weapon (but can be used within 5' as well)
- Can make trip, drag and disarm attacks (same as spiked chain)

As an alternate to the Kama, it could have a light pick (1d6, x4, Piercing) end.

What do ya think?

[InfernosReaper]

That's a more just like one of the many existing versions of that weapon... That's a bit too much really... Spiked Chain, the only core weapon in 3.5 with reach & the ability to attack adjacent targets can't do that in Pathfinder. Even Pathfinder weapons like the bladed scarf no longer have both reach & the ability to attack adjacent foes.

Now, they should've included a kama & chain in the playtest, but if they don't give it fair some way to get reach & be able to hit adjacent people, it's not going to work thematically.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/dorn- dergar-dwarven is the closest viable reference we've got to work with on this.

Personally, I'd give the chain reach & function kinda like the whip(except doing 1d4 lethal bludgeoning damage & not having the useless against armor drawback) and make the kama end do a 1d6 lethal slashing damage & have no reach capability. So basically http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip- scorpion on 1 end & http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama on the other. Giving the costs of the individual items, I'd say 10gp will suffice for cost.

[Alexander Sommer]

It seems to me that the kusarigama fits the rule better whan you divide it into two weapons. The weighted chain, which has reach, and the sickle, which does not.

Exotic Weapon: Kusarigama
This weapon consists of a chain with a sickle on one end and a weight on the other. The kusarigama requires two hands to wield, but the wielder can only use one end at a time, switching between the two is a free action.

Kama end: 1d6 damage (medium), 19-20 x2, slashing.

Weight end: 1d4 damage (medium), x2, bludgeoning.
10' Reach weapon
Special: a character with exotic weapon proficiency (kusarigma ) can use the weight end to make trip and disarm attacks

[InfernosReaper]

The modified whip for the chain's a better fit, especially since it gets fitting options & it can go up to 15ft out, but isn't recommended for use while someone's on top of you. Plus, it fits in better with the adjustments to 3.5 reach weapons that Pathfinder made.

The kama's a better choice than the sickle... I'm just kidding. They're literally the exact same weapon, both in combat mechanics & tool usage ability. The only difference is that Kama's exotic, cheaper, & has a different name.

[Alexander Sommer]

@InfernosReaper: You make a good argument
That would make the stats:

Exotic Weapon: Kusarigama
This weapon consists of a chain with a kama on one end and a weight on the other. The kusarigama requires two hands to wield, but the wielder can only use one end at a time, switching between the two is a free action.

Kama end: 1d6 damage (medium), 19-20 x2, slashing.

Weight end: 1d4 damage (medium), x2, bludgeoning, nonlethal.
15' Reach weapon
Special: a character with exotic weapon proficiency (kusarigma) can use the weight end to make trip and disarm attacks

I don't think it should be a double weapon because of balance, and the way the weapon was used historically. Having the weight be nonlethal leaves the chain for maneuvers and the kama for damage, otherwise the 15 ft reach is a bit much.
But should there be an option for a drag, grapple or entangling maneuver?

[Buba HoTep]

Yeah actually it makes sense, not being a double weapon, and with Pathfinder's thing about weapons like that (never noticed it before) it could be acceptable.

I think the weight end should stay lethal damage, and reach should stay at 10'.
The reach/weight end could do disarm, trip, and after a trip possibly a drag maneuver.

[Alexander Sommer]

With that the stats are:

Exotic Weapon: Kusarigama
This weapon consists of a chain with a kama on one end and a weight on the other. The kusarigama requires two hands to wield, but the wielder can only use one end at a time, switching between the two is a free action.

Kama end: 1d6 damage (medium), 19-20 x2, slashing.

Weight end: 1d4 damage (medium), x2, bludgeoning.
10' Reach weapon
Special: a character with exotic weapon proficiency (kusarigma) can use the weight end to make trip and disarm attacks, after a successful trip, the weight end can be used for a drag maneuver.

[R_Chance]

If you want the "Ninja" version of the Kusarigama, I'd suggest the Kyoketsu-Shogi. A double edged knife with a hook / blade at a 90 degree angle off the main blade and a long braided human hair rope (may be a chain as well) with a metal ring on the end. Chain weapons tend to "clink" a bit much. Linked off Wikipedia for the basic information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoketsu_shoge

[Steelfiredragon]

only the base classes alt features were put in the open play test.

in the UC thread I hads asked if the twin hook sword was in it as it IS the premier Monk weapon next to the staff.

I would imagine the premier ninja weapon that is the Kusarigama is in the book.

I do wonder if they will have the kunai and chain version along with the kama and chain version....

[InfernosReaper]

I think the goal here is to have a temporary thing to last us the months it'll be before the book's released(last I heard it was going to be August).

[Froze_man]

What about using a mechanic like the Dorn Dergar from Dwarves of Golarion?

Have the Kama end be something along the lines of 1d6 19-20x2 trip, and the weight end be 1d6 x2 disarm trip. Then add in something along these lines:

The Kusuri-gama can be wielded as either a double weapon or as a reach weapon. On the player's turn they may take a move action to adjust their grip, and switch from double weapon to reach, or vice versa. When the player switches the weapon to reach, they must choose an end to wield, all attacks made with the kusuri-gama must be made with that end until they take a move action either to wield the weapon as a double weapon, or to switch to the other end.

[Loengrin]

Well you can make something as simple as having a scorpion whip in one hand, a kukri or a sickle in the other et voilà...
I think you can do this no ? If you have two weapon fighting nothing prevent you from having a whip in one hand and a light weapon such as a sickle in the other no ?

You add some fluff (chain with weight and bludgeoning damage instead of leather and knife), you tie the chain to the sickle and you've got a double weapon named kusari-gama... ;)

[xorial]

WHERE'S MY KUSARIGAMA?!

With a title like that I would expect a response from some of the smart alecs on the boards to reply. "That's what she said." or "It's in your pants." or something similar. I wouldn't say something like that. I don't know you well enough. :P

[InfernosReaper]

I haven't really looked over the new combat options, so I wonder if they have or will add a "strangle with something" combat option for the game... Cause I can so see a Ninja choking someone with that chain...

Anywayz. Simplistic homebrew remedies will suffice for the Kama & Chain. No matter what, it's gotta be exotic & a double weapon(which, last time I checked you can just use 1 end at a time in 1 hand with those) On a sidenote, why, even though they are both farming implements used for the exact same purpose, is the kama exotic, but the sickle is simple?!

[Jesse Brake]

The 3.5 Arms and Equipment book just suggested using the mechanics of the Spiked Chain and change it to 1d6, 19-20/x2. I think that's perfectly fine, no weighted end required.

[Anburaid]

Froze_man wrote:

What about using a mechanic like the Dorn Dergar from Dwarves of Golarion?

Have the Kama end be something along the lines of 1d6 19-20x2 trip, and the weight end be 1d6 x2 disarm trip. Then add in something along these lines:

The Kusuri-gama can be wielded as either a double weapon or as a reach weapon. On the player's turn they may take a move action to adjust their grip, and switch from double weapon to reach, or vice versa. When the player switches the weapon to reach, they must choose an end to wield, all attacks made with the kusuri-gama must be made with that end until they take a move action either to wield the weapon as a double weapon, or to switch to the other end.

I like THIS the best. Less damaging than a spiked chain, but has reach at the expense of crit chance. Th fact that you can use it with reach or while foes are adjacent is quite nice.