A little abstract optimization practice for those who care to indulge. In a high fantasy Point Buy, ie 25 points to add, which characters are helped the most? Obviously everyone gets something, but who are/ is the amped the most?
Let's assume Pathfinder only material, but everything they've published. Let's also assume stopping at 15th level because our group never goes past that and I suspect we're more the norm than exception.
I'm proposing Inquisitor because they have so many stats that benefit them: Strength, Wisdom, Dexterity, and of course Constitution can't be too high for these guys.
Maybe I'm looking at it upside down. Perhaps the Wizard sinking everything in Intelligence is the winner.
Thoughts?
If you don't have first level limits on stats than any single caster tied to a single stat. Charisma for sor, Int for Wiz, etc. Personally I think a 20+ int wiz would benefit the most, but I'm partial to wizards.
If you do have a stat limit at first level character creation I would say monk. They benefit the most from having multiple high level stats.
Though no characteris perfect even with high stats. It comes down to how good of a role player you are.
That's my 2C
MAD classes and builds generally get enabled with high point buy values.
SAD casters can already max their casting stat at any point buy value by dumping less critical stats. SAD martial builds (THF and Archer builds) also do pretty well under low point buys.
MAD classes (Monk, Paladin) and MAD builds (TWF Fighter) typically do much better under higher point values because they can cover their primary stats without sacrificing too much offensive production.
I think a case could be made for the Druid also benefiting alot. Under low point values the Druid needs to specialize on being either a caster (Max Wisdom) or a melee type that self-buffs (Good physical stats). High point values allow them to effectively handle both roles without a major loss of power.
wesF, let's say there's no cap on a stat. The Wizard also has Dex and Con to seriously think about, so he could benefit without necessarily sinking everything to Int which would get pricey in Point Buy economy.
Interesting posts all around, thanks.
wesF, let's say there's no cap on a stat. The Wizard also has Dex and Con to seriously think about, so he could benefit without necessarily sinking everything to Int which would get pricey in Point Buy economy.
Interesting posts all around, thanks.
minmax casters sink everything into int anyway.
I think the MAD classes like the Monk are only payable at a higher point buy. So they would be the ones who benefit most. Of all the characters the Monk is the most MAD. some of the posts are saying a Paladin is MAD. Actually the Paladin does not Need DEX, INT, or WIS that much. Probably would not dump them too much.
The Ranger would probably be the Second most MAD. The only thing he can really dump is CHA. I know people are going to say he can dump INT, but he is a skill based class so doing so hurts him more than most of the other classes.
Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers , and Fighters are the least MAD.
Definitely Monk, followed by Paladin.
For reference, here's what Treantmonk's Wizard Guide suggests with 25 Point Buy:
25-point buy: Str 8 (-2), Dex 16 (10), Con 14 (5), Int 18 (17), Wis 7 (-4), Cha 9 (-1)
I think the Alchemist could really benefit from high scores all around. With good Str, Int, Dex, and Con he could blow up everything in sight with fast bombs + TWF and then when he's out of bombs go nuts in melee too. My gnome alchemist is pretty good at blowing stuff up, but with a Str of 8 his melee attacks are strictly for emergencies. We rolled stats for that game though.
The losers in high point buy are probably PCs who focus on summoning. Summoned monsters stay the same regardless of the point buy, so they've got the most relative power in low point buy games. The Summoner and Druid also have a pet who gets relatively better the lower the PC stats go. Druids can benefit from high point buy themselves though now that your Str and Dex in wildshape are based on your real Str and Dex (unlike in 3.5).
He seems to undervalue Wisdom and overvalue Dex (which, by the way, is a very valuable stat for a Wizard, but worth sacrificing Wis that much for an extra +1?).
Who needs a will save when you go first? :)
The only response I can give kindly is that you're using flawed logic.Who needs a will save when you go first? :)
He seems to undervalue Wisdom and overvalue Dex (which, by the way, is a very valuable stat for a Wizard, but worth sacrificing Wis that much for an extra +1?).
Initiative does more for Wizards than any other class, in my opinion. At higher levels, you can change the face of the entire battlefield and protect yourself from harm in a single round.
Is it worth sacrificing that much Dex for an extra +1 Wis?
The only response I can give kindly is that you're using flawed logic.Who needs a will save when you go first? :)
He seems to undervalue Wisdom and overvalue Dex (which, by the way, is a very valuable stat for a Wizard, but worth sacrificing Wis that much for an extra +1?).Initiative does more for Wizards than any other class, in my opinion. At higher levels, you can change the face of the entire battlefield and protect yourself from harm in a single round.
Is it worth sacrificing that much Dex for an extra +1 Wis?
It's only 1 DEX bonus, and it's not an extra +1 WIS bonus. Treantmonk's 25 point buy spread shown above has a 7 WIS. Yeah, that's -2 Will.
For losing out on 1 DEX, you have a +1 WIS, versus a -2 WIS. Anyone with some sensibility about the game in general can see the obvious disparity. Having +1 WIS instead of -2 WIS is a huge leap, and having +3 DEX instead of +2 DEX is a ridiculously small leap especially when you aren't dependent primarily upon that stat. If any physical stat is important to a Wizard, it's CON. DEX is merely secondary, and it is absolutely not worth sacrificing so much WIS for merely 1 DEX bonus.
There are other ways to get initiative, and sacrificing core stats and a vital save is a poor way to go about getting merely +1 to it. Wisdom may not be a Wizard's primary stat, but it shouldn't be ignored. Especially how silly will you look when an effect with a save that you're supposed to be able to resist more easily instead incapacitates you with remarkable efficacy and ease. You'd be like a melee Fighter (non-finesse) with a 7 CON, or 7 DEX. It's silly.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. I don't fully agree with his stat layout either, and I agree with what you're saying. I would, however, still start with a 16 in Dex, initiative is just that important. Wisdom shouldn't be ignored to the extent of a 7, though, agreed. Stick the 7 in Strength.
Ah, I see what you're saying now. I don't fully agree with his stat layout either, and I agree with what you're saying. I would, however, still start with a 16 in Dex, initiative is just that important. Wisdom shouldn't be ignored to the extent of a 7, though,...Buying a 16 is expensive. Really expensive if it's not your primary or even secondary stat. I would say buy up to 14. It's far more effective to spread some of those points around instead of min-maxing like a munchkin. If you desperately want a 16 DEX, be an Elf. It's one of the better (if not the best) Wizard classes anyway. +2 INT, +2 DEX, -2 CON. So your CON goes down from a 14 to a 12. You can live with that. You shouldn't be getting hit enough for that to be so crucial, anyway, and there are ways to get more hit points, especially temporary hit points. The Elf racials are also pretty good. If initiative is so much of a sacred thing to you, go with the scorpion familiar. There's a stackable +2. Or, like I said (I edited my previous post a little), just be a Diviner if you are so desperate for initiative that you'd go so far as to gimp a vital stat for merely 1 point of it.
Your tone is still quite hostile, i'm not trying to deride you, we're having a discussion. Chill.
In my mind, I was already an elf:)
I don't think that being a diviner is worth the sacrifice of having to prepare a divination spell every day, despite how incredibly awesome the ability is. Conjuration is my personal favourite, especially with the new teleportation specialisation.
The OP mentioned optimisation, hence the gimping of stats. I wouldn't really consider Wis a vital stat, at any rate. I don't think it should be gimped with no regard to the consequences - it is still a defensive stat. Str and Cha on the other hand, from a min/max standpoint are useless. I'm not saying that everyone should drop them in every game.
If you take an 18 and a 16, that's 27 points. -8 for two 7's leaves you with enough for a constitution over 10, a non-negative wisdom and a starting Int of 20 and Dex of 18, with a possible starting initiative of +12 and a non-gimped will save.
Let´s build the Uber-MAD-character!
How about a monk(2)/paladin(2)/fighter(3)/duelist(x)? He makes use of every ability, making damage with strength, using dex, wis and int for AC and cha for his saves (and feinting)
This character is so MAD, maybe he is even ability starved with 25 points!
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For the record, my wizard would be 1/2 elf
Str: 7 Int: 20 Wis: 7 Dex: 16 Con: 16 Chr: 7
Then instead of "Skilled" I'd take the half-elf trait to give me +2 to will saves. Wisdom problem solved, and this guy is amazingly surviveable. If you care about saves, get cute and lower Int by 2, Chr by 2, raise Wis to a 9 and con to an 18. You're a dwarf, your first level feat gives you +4 instead of +2 vs all magic. Now you have the suprises combo nobody expected, and level 1 11 hp :).
The direct answer is 25 points doesn't particularly help any group more than another... it's obviously great for all.
To help MAD, you do fixed points; or you use selective rules (25 points, no stat below 12 before racial... so now you get an array of 12s and 13 points to put where you will. Makes for far more balanced characters. But generally The more freedom you get the more you help SAD.
For the record, my wizard would be 1/2 elf
Str: 7 Int: 20 Wis: 7 Dex: 16 Con: 16 Chr: 7
Then instead of "Skilled" I'd take the half-elf trait to give me +2 to will saves. Wisdom problem solved, and this guy is amazingly surviveable. If you care about saves, get cute and lower Int by 2, Chr by 2, raise Wis to a 9 and con to an 18. You're a dwarf, your first level feat gives you +4 instead of +2 vs all magic. Now you have the suprises combo nobody expected, and level 1 11 hp :).
The direct answer is 25 points doesn't particularly help any group more than another... it's obviously great for all.
To help MAD, you do fixed points; or you use selective rules (25 points, no stat below 12 before racial... so now you get an array of 12s and 13 points to put where you will. Makes for far more balanced characters. But generally The more freedom you get the more you help SAD.
Hehe sleep hex no steelsoul for you and you have a +1 will save at first level yeah sounds smart.
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For the record, my wizard would be 1/2 elf
Str: 7 Int: 20 Wis: 7 Dex: 16 Con: 16 Chr: 7
As a DM I love it when people show up with min/max builds like these. A 7 Str, 7 Wis, and 7 Cha huh? I used to run across these all the time Dm'ing various "living" campaigns (Arcanis Greyhawk, FR, Pathfinder). So your physically weak, ugly and boorish in social situations, and are weak willed, easily bullied,and have no common sense. I think my favorite moments involving them are things like:
1) So how much does your gear weigh?
2) So you want to drag the dying fighter where?
3) No, I don't think the prince actually wants to talk to you.
4) Oh no looks its an XXX!!! (Insert ability draining monster here)
5) Oh no Enervation!
6) Oh no! Str/wis/cha poison!
7) Of course its a good idea to charge right in!
8) AHHH! its a Dragon (or any fear aura monster) RUN!(the wizard flees his party)
Of course in a living campaign where your character "resets" between sessions, this becomes less of an issue. In a home campaign? Characters like these are usually much less optimal than their more well rounded compatriots.
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1. Spellbook, components, and robes? Not a lot. Later everything except those are in a haversack or carried by the fighter
2. Nowhere, not my job. For an emergency I can summon. Note Str 10 won't do much here either.
3. Good, have him talk to the party face :)... OR, I'll use that diplomacy skill I had all the spare skill points with to convince the guards / him it is urgent.
4. 10 won't help much more, and better me than the people who rely on those stats. Plus, I'm a wizard, so am pretty good at keepaway.
5. Sucks, but at least my touch AC is better than most. Would suck for anyone.
6. Better me than those who rely on those stats. Luckily I have a high con. And why didn't the front line block it anyway?
7. Of course, I'm invincible. 'sides, I have the spells to get out :).
8. The fighter and I will be back in a bit. At the level they make you run in terror lots of people will run. At least I can do good SOS and spells when I get back. Remove fear cleric?
The sleep hex is one of a few will saves that I need to make where I get no +4, but in that worst scenario I'm still better off than those with "poor" will save and decent but not great will. And in most scenarios I'm far more survivable than, well, anyone. Including those poisons / ability drains listed.
Look, if the DM wants you dead, you're dead. And maybe you don't want to role-play the low-wis low-Chr guy. But in general these stats are going to be far more survivable than, well, any non-Arcane, especially those with "balanced" stats.