Sword of Subtlety is a +1 short sword that grants a "+4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack"
Cost is 22,310gp.
Adding an additional +4 to the weapon costs 48,000gp. Total price for a +5 short sword of subtlety would be 80,310gp. This weapon would get a +9 to attack and damage rolls if used to make a sneak attack.
One of my players...the rogue...has figured this out and wants to do this. I'm not sure if I should ok it.
The bonus granted is unnamed and by RAW should stack with the enhancement bonus of the weapon. The cost is significant and the benefit is useless against anything immune to crits or SA. A +6 weapon costs 72,000g. A +3 Keen flaming burst scimitar costs less and has fewer restrictions.
I just wanted opinions. Something about it bothers me.
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Some people say that specific weapons and armors cannot be upgraded, I don't think this is accurate, but if it is, it could explain a thing or two.
Keep in mind, that even with this weapon, the rogue still can't keep up with a fighter in damage.
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Do it. Even with such an item, the rogue will still be behind most classes in combat. The sword of subtlety is the only bonus only rogues can get. And since it's a light weapon, he can't even use it two-handed.
The rogue needs any help he can get anyway. The only unbalancing factor is the option for characters with a single level in rogue using it to gain additional bonuses (it's rather nice for fighters).
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So... a quick comment on this.
If you think the rogue is broken then the solution is to fix the rogue class, don't add a crutch to the game that can be abused.
There's already a fix for the rogue. It's called ranger. Why should I invest time to fix a class if it's that much easier to just ignore it?
And a blade of subtlety +5 isn't any more broken than gloves of dueling. By the time you can afford them you're probably better of with kukris or a scimitar/rapier.
So... a quick comment on this.
If you think the rogue is broken then the solution is to fix the rogue class, don't add a crutch to the game that can be abused.
There's already a fix for the rogue. It's called ranger. Why should I invest time to fix a class if it's that much easier to just ignore it?
And a blade of subtlety +5 isn't any more broken than gloves of dueling. By the time you can afford them you're probably better of with kukris or a scimitar/rapier.
Based on the forums, I thought it was the ninja.
Another arguement(I forsee this)is that since the sword is created by someone with skill, why can't it's magic be placed into a different weapon? Why can't I take my money to a master craftsman/wizard/cleric an have him make me a:
Rapier of Subtlety?
Kukri of Sublety?
Dagger of Sublety?
I allow Piranna Strike and "Extra Finesse" in my games (power attack with light weapons and adding dex to damage in place of strength).
Allowing both of these still doesn't allow the rogue to out shine the fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin etc in melee damage. 3/4 base attack doesn't take well to having reductions to hit, so I see more damage out of our rogue per hit with fewer hits.
Even if it did make the rogue hit harder I doubt it would be an issue. The rogue dealing more damage with a lower AC and HP means that the rogue becomes an easy target.
I'll probably allow it in any case. Though, for the money, I would like to see the damage a twf rogue could do with two +5 swords of subtlety. :)
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Another arguement(I forsee this)is that since the sword is created by someone with skill, why can't it's magic be placed into a different weapon? Why can't I take my money to a master craftsman/wizard/cleric an have him make me a:
Rapier of Subtlety?
Kukri of Sublety?
Dagger of Sublety?
There are quite a few unique arms and armors that are balanced by the fact that they are applied to a suboptimal base, like celestial armor or rhino hide. Allowing them to be added to better weapons or armors would be much more unbalancing than further enchanting the existing ones.
I allow Piranna Strike and "Extra Finesse" in my games (power attack with light weapons and adding dex to damage in place of strength).
Allowing both of these still doesn't allow the rogue to out shine the fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin etc in melee damage. 3/4 base attack doesn't take well to having reductions to hit, so I see more damage out of our rogue per hit with fewer hits.
Even if it did make the rogue hit harder I doubt it would be an issue. The rogue dealing more damage with a lower AC and HP means that the rogue becomes an easy target.
I'll probably allow it in any case. Though, for the money, I would like to see the damage a twf rogue could do with two +5 swords of subtlety. :)
In my opinion 'extra finesse' is much more unbalancing than swords of subtlety +5. Not because of rogues but because it allows a melee character to dump strength for just two feats. Even strength based characters will still want some dexterity for AC, reflex, initiative and skills. The only thing a character would lose by dumping strength would be two feats and some carrying capacity.
Dervish dance is okay because it's only usable while holding nothing in your off-hand. It may or may not fix the rogue (dealing damage isn't exactly the rogues main problem, that's hitting the target), but it certainly breaks other classes.
Sword of Subtlety is a +1 short sword that grants a "+4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack"
Cost is 22,310gp.
Adding an additional +4 to the weapon costs 48,000gp. Total price for a +5 short sword of subtlety would be 80,310gp. This weapon would get a +9 to attack and damage rolls if used to make a sneak attack.
One of my players...the rogue...has figured this out and wants to do this. I'm not sure if I should ok it.
The bonus granted is unnamed and by RAW should stack with the enhancement bonus of the weapon. The cost is significant and the benefit is useless against anything immune to crits or SA. A +6 weapon costs 72,000g. A +3 Keen flaming burst scimitar costs less and has fewer restrictions.
I just wanted opinions. Something about it bothers me.
Rogues need every advantage they can get. I see nothing wrong with giving them a nice sword like this when other classes amazing damage and effects with their abilities.
Based on the forums, I thought it was the ninja.
We don't know yet how the final Ninja will come out of the sausage machine of game development.
Another arguement(I forsee this)is that since the sword is created by someone with skill, why can't it's magic be placed into a different weapon? Why can't I take my money to a master craftsman/wizard/cleric an have him make me a:
Rapier of Subtlety?
Kukri of Sublety?
Dagger of Sublety?There are quite a few unique arms and armors that are balanced by the fact that they are applied to a suboptimal base, like celestial armor or rhino hide. Allowing them to be added to better weapons or armors would be much more unbalancing than further enchanting the existing ones.
I allow Piranna Strike and "Extra Finesse" in my games (power attack with light weapons and adding dex to damage in place of strength).
Allowing both of these still doesn't allow the rogue to out shine the fighter/ranger/barbarian/paladin etc in melee damage. 3/4 base attack doesn't take well to having reductions to hit, so I see more damage out of our rogue per hit with fewer hits.
Even if it did make the rogue hit harder I doubt it would be an issue. The rogue dealing more damage with a lower AC and HP means that the rogue becomes an easy target.
I'll probably allow it in any case. Though, for the money, I would like to see the damage a twf rogue could do with two +5 swords of subtlety. :)
In my opinion 'extra finesse' is much more unbalancing than swords of subtlety +5. Not because of rogues but because it allows a melee character to dump strength for just two feats. Even strength based characters will still want some dexterity for AC, reflex, initiative and skills. The only thing a character would lose by dumping strength would be two feats and some carrying capacity.
Dervish dance is okay because it's only usable while holding nothing in your off-hand. It may or may not fix the rogue (dealing damage isn't exactly the rogues main problem, that's hitting the target), but it certainly breaks other classes.
"Extra Finess" reads as such.
Requirements: Dex 13+, weapon finesse, BAB +1Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your your size catagory and wearing light or no armor, you use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier on damage rolls. This damage is considered to be prescision damage and is not applicable to creatures immune to critical hits.
Special: Unarmed strikes and any weapon that qualifies under weapon finesse qualifies for this damage.
I'm more concerned with the monk using two feats to be less MADD...but then again, whoever thought needing three good stats was a good idea needs to be sacked.
Even if the weapon can not be enhanced it can still be targeted with a GMW or similar effect. You just need 1 sneak attack dice, if anything this weapon encourages to lvl dip in a SA class.
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"Extra Finess" reads as such.
Requirements: Dex 13+, weapon finesse, BAB +1
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your your size catagory and wearing light or no armor, you use your dexterity modifier instead of your strength modifier on damage rolls. This damage is considered to be prescision damage and is not applicable to creatures immune to critical hits.
Special: Unarmed strikes and any weapon that qualifies under weapon finesse qualifies for this damage.I'm more concerned with the monk using two feats to be less MADD...but then again, whoever thought needing three good stats was a good idea needs to be sacked.
The problem is that dexterity becomes to good. A much better fix for monks would be the introduction of a feat that adds wisdom to the damage of monk weapons instead of strength. Rogues need attack bonuses much more than damage bonuses anyway.
The restriction to light armor is rather meaningless, since most characters with high dexterity won't wear heavy or medium armor anyway. And there's always the Celestial Armor. Rangers, Fighters and Cavaliers gain probably much more from this feat than rogues or monks. Maybe bards, inquisitors and paladins, too, but they are rather feat starved.|
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The problem is that dexterity becomes to good. A much better fix for monks would be the introduction of a feat that adds wisdom to the damage of monk weapons instead of strength.
Guided Weapon
Aura moderate evocation; CL 7th
Slot weapon quality; Price +1 bonus.
DESCRIPTIONA weapon with the guided property allows its wielder to use his instinct when striking blows with it. Attacks from a guided weapon generally don’t strike hard, but they strike at precisely the right moment to maximize damage if in the hands of a particularly wise wielder. A character who attacks with a guided weapon modifies his attack rolls and weapon damage rolls with his Wisdom modifier, not his Strength modifier.
This modifier to damage is not adjusted for two-handed weapons or off-hand weapons—it always remains equal to the wielder’s Wisdom modifier. A guided weapon may be wielded as a normal weapon, using Strength to modify attack and damage rolls, but this goes against the weapon’s nature and imparts a –2 penalty on all attack rolls made in this manner.
CONSTRUCTIONRequirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, spiritual weapon.
Great to put on an Amulet of Mighty Fists.
My two cents: I'd consult the rules to see which weapon with flat bonuses is closest to the price of the item (in this case, a +3 shortsword would cost 18,000 gp) and then use that as the starting point for adding additional pluses. So adding another +4 would cost roughly the same as a +7 weapon; I'd say a conditionally +5/+9 weapon is loosely equal to a +7 weapon in terms of power.
Sword of Subtlety is a +1 short sword that grants a "+4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack"
Cost is 22,310gp.
Adding an additional +4 to the weapon costs 48,000gp. Total price for a +5 short sword of subtlety would be 80,310gp. This weapon would get a +9 to attack and damage rolls if used to make a sneak attack.
One of my players...the rogue...has figured this out and wants to do this. I'm not sure if I should ok it.
The bonus granted is unnamed and by RAW should stack with the enhancement bonus of the weapon. The cost is significant and the benefit is useless against anything immune to crits or SA. A +6 weapon costs 72,000g. A +3 Keen flaming burst scimitar costs less and has fewer restrictions.
I just wanted opinions. Something about it bothers me.
Its not a +4 bonus all the time. Its a +4 bonus one quarter of the time. It works out in the rogues favor is because that 1/4 the time is most of a rogues combat usefulness. Let the poor rogue hit something.
Sword of Subtlety is a +1 short sword that grants a "+4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack"
Cost is 22,310gp.
Adding an additional +4 to the weapon costs 48,000gp. Total price for a +5 short sword of subtlety would be 80,310gp.
I disagree. By RAW, you can't add an additional enhancement bonus to a unique weapon at all. When you add an enhancement bonus to a unique weapon, you have to take into account more than just the weapon's actual enhancement bonus.
Personally I prefer to take the equivalent of the weapon's full enchantment price as the baseline: 22,000 gp, in this case.That makes the Sword of Subtlety a +3.3 weapon. Adding an additional +4 would make it a +7.3 weapon. Total price for a base +5 Sword of Subtlety: 107,376 gp. I'd certainly allow a player to have it at this price.
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Its not a +4 bonus all the time. Its a +4 bonus one quarter of the time. It works out in the rogues favor is because that 1/4 the time is most of a rogues combat usefulness. Let the poor rogue hit something.
Gah. This is such a terrible argument and it keeps getting trotted out.
If the only reason a weapon is 'balanced' is to fix a problem with a class then it's not a good weapon, it's a broken weapon and a broken class. Fix the problem, don't put a wonky patch on it.
Using an item to fix this:
Whether the rogue is broken or not is irrelevant, it's a terrible way to approach balancing a game, home or otherwise.
the problem with that weapon is no weapon is supposed to have more than a +5 numerical bonus.
I would not allow it.
I don't allow +5 bane weapons (because it would be +7 v. the creature it's baned against)
The only time I allow this, is with something like inquisitor bane with a +5 weapon because its a class ability and i want to emphasize class abilities over christmas tree effect.
Although admittedly, we don't see alot of +5 weapons anyway so the point is usually moot.
I certainly would not allow a +9 circumstance weapon in case where the player using it already seeks to make this situation happen as often as possible to begin with (he's a rogue he's going to try and create sneak attack situations)
If it was a +9 weapon, only when beheading baba yaga? I dunno, maybe if it fit in the story line.
the problem with that weapon is no weapon is supposed to have more than a +5 numerical bonus.
I would not allow it.
I don't allow +5 bane weapons (because it would be +7 v. the creature it's baned against)
The only time I allow this, is with something like inquisitor bane with a +5 weapon because its a class ability and i want to emphasize class abilities over christmas tree effect.
Although admittedly, we don't see alot of +5 weapons anyway so the point is usually moot.
I certainly would not allow a +9 circumstance weapon in case where the player using it already seeks to make this situation happen as often as possible to begin with (he's a rogue he's going to try and create sneak attack situations)
If it was a +9 weapon, only when beheading baba yaga? I dunno, maybe if it fit in the story line.
I dont agree with that interpretation Pendagast
Sword of Subtlety
Aura moderate illusion; CL 7th Slot none; Price 22,310 gp; Weight 2 lbs.Description
A +1 short sword with a thin, dull gray blade, this weapon provides a +4 bonus on its wielder's attack and damage rolls when he is making a sneak attack with it.
versus Bane
Bane
Aura Moderate conjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, summon monster I; Price +1 bonus.Description
A bane weapon excels against certain foes. Against a designated foe, the weapon's enhancement bonus is +2 better than its actual bonus. It also deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe.
Bane actually allows the enhcancement bonus to increase which in turn overcomes more types of DR (less critical with a +5 weapon, granted)
Subtlety is a non specified bonus in the same way that weapon specialization provides an untyped bonus.
As such it seems like a viable option IF you/your GM allow it to be placed on a weapon of greater than +1. Big IF to be sure.
@Avalon
If the property can be extrapolated to be a whole number on the plus chart, personally, I assume it equals that Plus X enchancment if it somes up as something like a 3.3 then I assume it is a flat cost bonus as they do exist for weapons and armor.
for simplicity sake, i just say you cant go over a +5 weapon except with class abilities.
But like I said it rarely happens for us. Once in CoT, Once in Second Darkness (where the ruling came from with an elf bane oath bow and an arrow of elf slaying that had all other mad plusses on it.
Since second darkness we have waaaay toned down magic items in our game, cuz it essentially ruined the campaign for us.
It was like superman beating up bank robbers.
Oddly enough we get alot more enjoyment out of "unbeatable" monsters than "unbeatable PCs".
If the only reason a weapon is 'balanced' is to fix a problem with a class then it's not a good weapon, it's a broken weapon and a broken class. Fix the problem, don't put a wonky patch on it.
I didn't say it was the ONLY reason its balanced. I said it was one of the reasons it was balanced. The other (and larger) reason being that it doesn't activate all the time: its circumstantial.
Using an item to fix this:
-I don't recall a whole lot of people on the optimization boards grabbing this weapon and a level of rogue.
-This has largely been fixed by pathfinders increased accessibility of making your own magic items.
- If i must own a pinto i would much rather have one with a patched gas tank than one without it.
-which is better than no fix at all.
Whether the rogue is broken or not is irrelevant, it's a terrible way to approach balancing a game, home or otherwise.
Not really. The effectiveness of magic items and wealth by level is an inherent and integral part of the system. Magic items are used to "fix" all of the martial classes, who without access to magic items are effectively broken.
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Using an item to fix this:
Opens up the item to abuse by other classes/ multi-classing -I don't recall a whole lot of people on the optimization boards grabbing this weapon and a level of rogue.
Not sure what your point is here.
Means the only players who get the fix are the ones who stumble across the item -This has largely been fixed by pathfinders increased accessibility of making your own magic items.
PLAYERS not characters. Though you do make a fair point also, not all campaigns offer Magic-Mart style item availability. But that's not what I was talking about.
Players are the people who have to figure this stuff out and know to buy items for their characters. The more obscure a class is and the more difficult it is to make it work right the less appealing/ good a given class is. If part of the 'fix' for a class is a character having a specific item then it makes building that character more difficult and makes the class more frustrating to play.
Means the character has to pay to 'fix' a broken class - If i must own a pinto i would much rather have one with a patched gas tank than one without it.
Why would you buy a car with an exploding fuel tank in the first place?
Overall it's just better for everyone to not sell cars with exploding fuel tanks.
As a fix sucks because it's not available until the player can afford an expensive item. -which is better than no fix at all.
I get to suck for 14 levels but then I can afford to buy an item and aspire to adequacy!! Yay me!
Not sure what your point is here.
-What i mean is that this particular weapon has not been the subject of the abuse you think could happen to it. That the general idea of weapons as patches COULD be abused does not mean that this particular weapon is.
PLAYERS not characters. Though you do make a fair point also, not all campaigns offer Magic-Mart style item availability. But that's not what I was talking about.
Some players fixing their pinto is better than no players fixing their pinto.
Why would you buy a car with an exploding fuel tank in the first place?
Flames on the side? A good PR campaign? Everyone says the pinto is fine?
Overall it's just better for everyone to not sell cars with exploding fuel tanks.
But its not all or nothing.
worst: no pinto owners fixing their gas tanks
bad: some pinto owners with repaired gas tanks
meh: all pinto owners with repaired gas tanks
Good: no pintos.
I get to suck for 14 levels but then I can afford to buy an item and aspire to adequacy!! Yay me!
You've sucked for 14 levels, have a cookie > you've sucked for 14 levels, no cookie for you.
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for simplicity sake, i just say you cant go over a +5 weapon except with class abilities.
But like I said it rarely happens for us. Once in CoT, Once in Second Darkness (where the ruling came from with an elf bane oath bow and an arrow of elf slaying that had all other mad plusses on it.
Since second darkness we have waaaay toned down magic items in our game, cuz it essentially ruined the campaign for us.
It was like superman beating up bank robbers.
Oddly enough we get alot more enjoyment out of "unbeatable" monsters than "unbeatable PCs".
Pendagast that means with your ruling there is no Core way to bypass DR x/Epic, other than the Paladin's smite which is irrelevant because the only creatures in the Bestiary with DR Epic are the Tarrasque and the Solar. A +4 or +5 Bane (magical beast) or (good outsider) weapon is the only way in the Core rulebook to defeat either the Tarrasque's or a Solar's DR.
--Schoolhouse Vrock
"Extra Finess" reads as such.
Requirements: Dex...
Is "extra finesse" a homebrew feat? If not, where is it printed?
I made a rogue with a sword of subtlety. I made a standard rogue. The latter was distinctly better.
I see it as a newbie trap. It looks good on paper, but the moment you go up against something with DR, it's utter garbage.
The moment you can afford it, it takes too much money leaving you with little else. At later levels, it doesn't compare to other weapons you could be using.
I side with those that allow the enhancement increase. Otherwise, it likely won't see much use (or if it does, the player will come to regret it).
Is "extra finesse" a homebrew feat? If not, where is it printed?
"Extra Finess" reads as such.
Requirements: Dex...
Homebrew.
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If your player is naive enough to want this weapon, I see no reason to not allow the player to use and further enhance this weapon.
A +3 weapon is much better investment, especially for a rogue who as others have said needs to hit more often if you want to be a real threat.
The sword of subtlety increases the rogues chance of hitting, more than a +3 weapon. It's bonus on attack is two points higher on sneak attacks. And without sneak attack, a rogue isn't much of a threat anyway.
With a standard sword of subtlety, he'll have problems with damage reduction, though, as others have pointed out.
Pendagast that means with your ruling there is no Core way to bypass DR x/Epic, other than the Paladin's smite which is irrelevant because the only creatures in the Bestiary with DR Epic are the Tarrasque and the Solar. A +4 or +5 Bane (magical beast) or (good outsider) weapon is the only way in the Core rulebook to defeat either the Tarrasque's or a Solar's DR.--Schoolhouse Vrock
And you're non-epic level character was supposed to take on the Tarasque (CR25) or a Solar (CR23) in melee combat? Irrelevant the way death is supposed to be if you're suicidal. I'd imagine that some epic feat / ability will let you do that. When it's time :)
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Semi on topic. One quick thought about Rogues. Anyone who judges the class just by it's damage potential is missing the point. A good thief or con doesn't fight. He just takes the money and runs. A good assassin doesn't fight either. He just hopes he can get the heck out of Dodge before they discover the body... fighting means you've either messed up or the group you're travelling with is hoplessly non-stealthy. And. if they are; let them do the fighting. It's safer that way :)
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The sword of subtlety increases the rogues chance of hitting, more than a +3 weapon. It's bonus on attack is two points higher on sneak attacks. And without sneak attack, a rogue isn't much of a threat anyway.
With a standard sword of subtlety, he'll have problems with damage reduction, though, as others have pointed out.
+1 shocking corrosive weapon.
+2 corrosive weapon.+3 weapon.
All three of these are less expensive than the SoS, all three of these apply their benefits regardless of sneak attack, all three of these can be better base weapons (AKA rapier), and one of these penetrate DR better.
Honestly though, I'd just have a backup weapon (cold iron and silver are inexpensive by the time you have a +3 weapon) or two with some oil of magic weapon.
Also a +2 menacing weapon is a superior choice since it not only helps the rogue (who will want to flank with the other melee guy), but also bestows it's bonus to *everyone* else who is flanking the creature. This number could reasonably be upwards of 16 allies when dealing with a huge or larger opponent (and having enough allies to do such of course)
BTW as an RP choice I have a character with a cold iron weapon from lv 1 (hates fey), he later upgraded to a +1 mithril weapon (which acts as silver by virtue of being mithril).
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I'm not judging rogues by their damage potential. I'm judging them by the fact that rangers are better in stealth and bards have greater skill versatility. Both classes just happen to be also stronger combatants, leaving me to ask what exactly is supposed to be the role of the rogue.
And if it's supposed to be 'disabling traps', that's just bad design.
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+1 shocking corrosive weapon.
Attack bonus 4 points less on sneak attacks.
+2 corrosive weapon.
Attack bonus 3 points less on sneak attacks.
+3 weapon.
Attack bonus 2 points less on sneak attacks.
The problem of the rogue is not being unable to sneak, it's being unable to hit. Setting up a flanking position is not that difficult, unless you are alone.
Also, add another +1 and the sword of subtlety costs less than any of those weapons. For a rogue, a short sword is probably better than a rapier. The benefit rogues get from critical hits is rather limited since their main source of damage isn't multiply (the same goes for the acid and lightning damage of a shocking corrosive weapon). They are also not light weapons, nor can they be wielded two-handed, making them actually rather bad choices for a rogue. If any weapon is a rogue trap, it's probably the rapier.
Also a +2 menacing weapon is a superior choice since it not only helps the rogue (who will want to flank with the other melee guy), but also bestows it's bonus to *everyone* else who is flanking the creature. This number could reasonably be upwards of 16 allies when dealing with a huge or larger opponent (and having enough allies to do such of course)
Actually, the menacing weapon helps anyone BUT the rogue. It's bonus only applies to flanking allies, not the character wielding it.
Menacing: This ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. This weapon property helps allies deal with flanked foes. When the wielder is adjacent to a creature that is being flanked by an ally, the flanking bonus on attack rolls for all flanking allies increases by +2. This ability works even if the wielder is not one of the characters flanking the creature.
Moderate illusion; CL 10th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, phantasmal killer; Price +1 bonus.
It's certainly not a bad enchantment, though. At least the poor rogue has some use, granting others a better chance to hit.
It has been confirmed, unless it specifically says so, you are your own ally.
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Setting up a flanking position is not that difficult, unless you are alone.
5' corridor.
Also, add another +1 and the sword of subtlety costs less than any of those weapons.
If I build a house out of brick it'll also cost more than a house built of wood.
They are also not light weapons, nor can they be wielded two-handed, making them actually rather bad choices for a rogue.
What about being a light weapon makes the short sword better than a rapier?
Actually, the menacing weapon helps anyone BUT the rogue.
If you believe that you're not a flanking ally...
Yes *IF* the rogue can pull a sneak attack the SOS is better for those attacks, but for every other attack it's plain worse. I don't know about the games you play in, but the ones I've played and seen the rogue most often has to make their sneak attacks happen with a feint or stealth/invisibility. In the former case you can't move, in the latter case you're using up resources (usually a spell or item, often for one attack only).
In short a +5 weapon 25% of the time isn't as good as a (cheaper) +3 weapon all the time.
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A rogue that's unable to use sneak attack is better of fleeing or making himself useful by using aid another. If he's using a two-handed weapon, normal attacks may be an option, too, but he can't do that with a rapier. A light weapon is advantageous when using two weapons, a tactic that seems rather popular with many rogues.
If menacing also applies to the rogue, it's certainly a nice enchantment. And a menacing sword of subtlety would only cost 28310 gp. Getting +8 on attack rolls while flanking certainly helps the rogue.
And a +5 weapon when it actually matters is much better than a +3 weapon when attacking isn't the best option anyway.
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You've sucked for 14 levels, have a cookie > you've sucked for 14 levels, no cookie for you.
This is my point, why suck for 14 levels at all? Many (most?) players never get to 14th level. So there is no cookie ever.
If it's broken fix it right, not some oddball patch late in the game, that's just bad game design.
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A rogue that's unable to use sneak attack is better of fleeing or making himself useful by using aid another.
So your argument is the SoS is a good weapon because the rogue is useless when not sneak attacking? I'm going to have to disagree. A rogue can (though I do not recommend) front line if he has to
A light weapon is advantageous when using two weapons, a tactic that seems rather popular with many rogues.
So the rogue that is already behind on attack bonus can recieve more attack penalties? Maybe if the opposition has low AC.
If menacing also applies to the rogue, it's certainly a nice enchantment. And a menacing sword of subtlety would only cost 28310 gp.
We're going to have to drastically disagree on what a +2 SoS costs. When allowing a specific weapon to be further enhanced IMC it's always treated as having an equivalent bonus of it's price (rounded down). Otherwise any rogue with the ability to have one would own a +5 dueling, menacing, brilliant energy, transformitive SoS.
As an answer to your earlier question about what the rogue does. The rogue is to the 'skill' classes what the fighter is to the 'combat classes'.
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So your argument is the SoS is a good weapon because the rogue is useless when not sneak attacking? I'm going to have to disagree. A rogue can (though I do not recommend) front line if he has to.
There are also feats like Improved Feint that allow a rogue to sneak his enemy if he can't flank him.
So the rogue that is already behind on attack bonus can recieve more attack penalties? Maybe if the opposition has low AC.
The idea is, that the difference between a rogues main-hand and off-hand damage won't be that great. Like you wrote, he already has difficulties hitting, so power attacking isn't a great idea.
In many cases, TWF actually increases the chance of hitting the enemy.If you need to roll at least a 15 to hit your enemy, the chance of not hitting is 70%. With TWF, this chance is reduced to 64% and you also have the chance to hit him twice.
We're going to have to drastically disagree on what a +2 SoS costs. When allowing a specific weapon to be further enhanced IMC it's always treated as having an equivalent bonus of it's price (rounded down). Otherwise any rogue with the ability to have one would own a +5 dueling, menacing, brilliant energy, transformitive SoS.
So it's not a good choice because of your houserules.
As an answer to your earlier question about what the rogue does. The rogue is to the 'skill' classes what the fighter is to the 'combat classes'.
I'd say the rogue is to 'skill' classes what the rogue is to 'combat' classes. It might look impressive on paper, but in actual play, other classes are much better in this area.
Setting up a flanking position is not that difficult, unless you are alone.5' corridor.
Tumble as a class skill.
We're going to have to drastically disagree on what a +2 SoS costs. When allowing a specific weapon to be further enhanced IMC it's always treated as having an equivalent bonus of it's price (rounded down). Otherwise any rogue with the ability to have one would own a +5 dueling, menacing, brilliant energy, transformitive SoS.
In my games, I price customized "specific" items as if they were whatever enhancement bonus they already have, with a flat GP value added on. So to enchant a +2 weapon up to a +3 weapon, you pay the difference in cost between a +2 and a +3 weapon, regardless of whether it's a +2 longsword, a +1 keen scimitar, or a SoS. The +3 version of a SoS costs as much more compared to a regular +3 weapon as the +2 does to a +2 weapon. I don't allow my players to pay that difference and put the SoS's special ability on another weapon, though, or buy a +1 SoS.