IIRC VoP is very situational in terms of it's effect on a game. For a class that can self-buff like crazy like the Druid VoP can be quite powerful. For other classes the benefits associated with VoP simply aren't worth the trade offs.
IIRC VoP is very situational in terms of it's effect on a game. For a class that can self-buff like crazy like the Druid VoP can be quite powerful. For other classes the benefits associated with VoP simply aren't worth the trade offs.
+1
In two situations I have played vow of poverty, one was a monk, the other a druid. Both characters were more powerful than geared characters in my group because of it.
IIRC VoP is very situational in terms of it's effect on a game. For a class that can self-buff like crazy like the Druid VoP can be quite powerful. For other classes the benefits associated with VoP simply aren't worth the trade offs.+1
In two situations I have played vow of poverty, one was a monk, the other a druid. Both characters were more powerful than geared characters in my group because of it.
+1 for monk and druid
And maybe a sorc/DD . Changes, mmm, i dont know, you are removing a fundamental part of the games - Items -and replacing them with buffs. there rere a few posts around with ideas for replacing magic items maybe you can start there.-
VoP is even more powerful if it's a low-magic campaign, and similarly less powerful if it's a high-magic campaign. For monks and druids, the feat is very very nice (especially druids), but other classes tend to want those items you're losing access to. Most casters, for instance, want a +6 statboosting item, and most frontline melee'ers want a highly enhanced weapon.
Vow of poverty's relative power is based entirely on the style of the campaign. If you follow or exceed wealth by level, and allow some method of characters getting the items they want (either by buying/selling or by the wishlist method or something similar) then vow of poverty is actually bellow the power curve, even on the monk or druid. A monk decked out in tailored magical gear for his or her level will have superior abilities. But if either there is less available magic items/wealth, or the gear is not normally tailored in some way to the party (and thus each character has some items that may or may not be useful) then the VoP is rather powerful.
It seems like a lot of cheese because of how much you get for one feat, but its important to remember how much in the standard setting you are giving up by swearing off wealth(and thus magic items).
So really no one would be able to offer advice on how (if at all) to adjust VoP without knowing more about the campaign style the dm intends to follow regarding wealth and magic items.
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Nah, VoP starts off being a bit better compared to average geared characters and then quickly becomes worthless as you get to higher levels.
That shift happens faster or slower the more or less gear and gold the party has access too.
That's not to say it isn't abusable but you really have to want to be like a monk/kensai or something to get anything close to real mileage out of it.
Effectively it's lame from a power gaming aspect unless your like one of two or three specific character concepts.
I liked the fluff but not the crunch of it so I houseruled a version:
Karmic pool:
The character rejects ownership of items except for 3+wis bonus plain items worth less than 1gp. He must give all earnings to worthy causes when the opportunity is presented.
In exchange the character gains a pool of 80% of the gp's worth of the offerings as Karmic pool that can be spent to gain "Karmic items" fuctionning (and requiring) the same as the normal or "magic" equivalent items but are non-exitant to the rest of the world except threw aligment detection that will show their presence on the same bas as detect magic would.
To gain a "Karmic item" the character spends 1 day of starving spiritual contact or prayer and is fatigued for the day after but gains the presence of the item after the first.
Note: The choices of items come from "Karma" so the player makes the choices following the faith base and the character isn't the one tha chooses.
The character can carry items but not use them unless asked by the owner of the item he is carrying. Ex.: carrying another's potion of healing an healing him with it is O.K. the character won't accept healing himself even if asked by the owner to do it.
Simply put, if you convert the benefits of Vow of Poverty to what they would cost as magic items, the aggregate cost is less than full Wealth By Level. Even if they priced out equally, VoP's very specific and unchanging list of benefits suffers compared to the versatility and flexibility of WBL. If you're getting less than full WBL, it's great, and classes who aren't particularly gear dependent--mainly the druid--can make it work pretty well, but it is not as good a feat as most people think.
A lawful Good Monk with the Vow of Poverty will kick ass. One thing to keep in mind is that if you take it at first level that is an extra 10 exalted feats. By 20th level you are getting +8/+6/+4/+2 for stats, +13 AC, All weapons including unarmed are +5 and good aligned, and damage reduction 10/Evil just to name a few. Now admittedly most of your bonuses from the exalted feats only affect evil, but they can be huge.
Most over classes will not get the same boost as a Monk.
In a magic-mart game the VoP is not the way to go from a mechanics point of view. Magic items gives options that the VoW can't.
A lawful Good Monk with the Vow of Poverty will kick ass. One thing to keep in mind is that if you take it at first level that is an extra 10 exalted feats. By 20th level you are getting +8/+6/+4/+2 for stats, +13 AC, All weapons including unarmed are +5 and good aligned, and damage reduction 10/Evil just to name a few. Now admittedly most of your bonuses from the exalted feats only affect evil, but they can be huge.
Most over classes will not get the same boost as a Monk.
Ok so as a monk you get +8 +6 +4 +2 on improtnat stats. Lets assume you also put +5 into stats for levling so it is +13 +6 +4 +2.
Now the monk with wealth by level buys a +5 tome, 2 +4 tomes, a +6 on three physical stats belt and a +6 wisdom headband.
Putting 5 into one stat he gets +16, +10, +10, +10.
It makes for an INTERESTING monk... but if you compare it to someone with appropriate WBL they are lower in power.
Druid or Cleric with "birthmark" trait can benefit nicely from it but I still would say WBL trumps it pretty easily UNLESS you are in a magic poor world.
I'm just curious, can you get all of those bonuses and still get the + to Ac, Natural Armor, Ring of protection, freedom of movement etc? I simply have never done a price comparison.
Where do you get the crunch for Vow of Poverty? I haven't read all the the PF products we have.
It's in WotC's 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds, page 29-30. The feat itself is on page 48, but all the mechanical bonuses are listed there.
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Personally, I think it needs to be opened up a little as to what mundane items it allows, based on class. For one, it should never take away a class feature, (except if that class feature is evilish), Turn Undead and some very Good aligned divine spells, I'm looking at you. martial types should have better weapons and armor options, casters should never be restricted from expensive components, especially when they power spells that either protect others from harm or evil, or potentually remove that evil or harm. very religious types should be allowed their favored weapon, no matter what it is, and things like that.
As far as balance issues, Druid and Monk do get additional bonuses from it because of their lack of need for gear, but t higher levels, and especially if you go epic, it gets to the point that it isn't worth it, (in a standard treasure game). While you are very, very good at fighting and be protected from evil, you are fairly terrible against everything else, and there are a lot of ethical restrictions you must live by, or lose it all, FOREVER. No feat exchange, no regaining. Once gone via evil acts or changing alignment, you can never get exalted feats back, even by returning to your good alignment. At the upper levels, you need a lot of different items much more, like adamantine or Mithral, and in pathfinder, only the actual enhancement bonus of an item would make it count as other materials. I would rule that the Exalted bonuses act jst like a Greater Magical Weapon spell, and do not gain that benefit.
I think that instead of exalted feats you could get special abilities that are replicated by magic items.
Example:Remember this is a very rough draft.
I am thinking 2 least, lesser, and greater. I don't know what levels these would be available or abilities. My player wanted to take the VoW because he does not like any book keeping at all.
Divine ______ Least-->This would consist of an ability that is duplicated by magic item that is in the minor category
I guess this would be between levels 1-7
Divine ______ Lesser-would duplicate medium magic item
Two of these would come in between levels 8-14
Divine ______ Greater-would duplicate major magic items.
these would come in between levels 15-20
I know it would still be weaker than a player with magic items, but it won't suck as much. I would also raise the gold cap to 50 gp for nonmagical items, and no magical items to be owned to include any held for him by team mates in order to avoid gaming the system. To enforce this he is only allowed to use 2 consumables a day and they must be fed to him by a team/party member.
So what mechanic can I put in place to replace this?
The other option mentioned; namely that other party members pay for the component and the VoP character borrows it to cast the spell.
Pretty sure the 'have my buddy buy stuff for me to use' Trick does not work. Vop Allows them to situationally Use potiosn and stuff on you without any problems.
but if i buy X which has the sole purpose of being used by the Vop Druid then the Vop Druid essentially owns it. Which would violate the Vop
I would also Strip a Vop person of any powers if they Deliberately Gave up Magic items or insisted on a tiny Share. They should be trying to grab all the magic items or Treasure they Can like any other party member In this case so it can be donated.
but the Feat isnt a license for other party members to get loot.
Pretty sure the 'have my buddy buy stuff for me to use' Trick does not work. Vop Allows them to situationally Use potiosn and stuff on you without any problems.
but if i buy X which has the sole purpose of being used by the Vop Druid then the Vop Druid essentially owns it. Which would violate the Vop.
I would have said the same, except the book specifically uses that exact thing as an example of what you can do with VoP (but only with regards to spell components; not anything else).
My next question, according to the existing VOP, characters get greater sustenance. I cannot find greater sustenance. Any ideas?
Greater Sustenance is an ability found near the top of page 30 in Book of Exalted Deeds (where all the abilities given for VoP are listed). The benefit is "once he attains 12th level, an ascetic character doesn't need to breathe."
The Exalted feats issue in VoP is definitely a concern, but I think in a Magic-rich game they might be an opportunity to let the VoP character do something that no other character can... Templates.
There are not too many templates at the moment, but something like taking on the Celestial and Half-Celestial templates over their development might be interesting, and would provide them with abilities that could not be paralleled. Both of those templates in particular are structured to get better as the recipient accrues HD, so staggering them out over the 20 levels of the feat might be useful.
Another option would be Domains - it seems logical that gaining a domain, despite not being a Spell Caster, necessarily, would make sense as they increased in power and were blessed by whatever holy force they had aligned themselves with. Perhaps they get one at 5-7th level, and a second at the low teens. Alternatively, what about the Celestial Bloodline?
Finally, what about something like "purchasing an indulgence" for those slots. The ability to own a single item of up to a certain value, defined as a factor of your Class Level without penalty. I'm not particularly fond of THAT answer, personally.
What if instead of allowing some items as needed - which certainly breaks the whole point of VoP - you get away from One Size Fits All and create several distinct advancement tracks for the Vow. Call them different Holy Orders, devotions to distinct Saints, whatever, but customize several paths to better fit some distinct classes, with unique rules and requirements. Maybe trade some or all of the bonus exalted feats for granted powers, or give different magic-equivalent buffs to fit a fluff concept. But whatever you do, only relax the original rules for VoP in return for something harder or less powerful. No free rides, if it was easy everyone would do it.
What if instead of allowing some items as needed - which certainly breaks the whole point of VoP - you get away from One Size Fits All and create several distinct advancement tracks for the Vow. Call them different Holy Orders, devotions to distinct Saints, whatever, but customize several paths to better fit some distinct classes, with unique rules and requirements. Maybe trade some or all of the bonus exalted feats for granted powers, or give different magic-equivalent buffs to fit a fluff concept. But whatever you do, only relax the original rules for VoP in return for something harder or less powerful. No free rides, if it was easy everyone would do it.
I actually like that quite a bit...
well, if you are willing to use 3.5 material, add a Domain or two, then expand the feat selection limits to Domain feats and Devotion Feats (from Complete Champion) could stay within the paradigm and still bump you up a bit.
You're going to need a significant bump to compete with well-equipped PCs.
Oh, what about something like a Weapon of Legacy thing, with the PC's divine patron providing a powerful\sentient weapon\artifact that develops as though it were an Ancestral Relic (a good-only feat in the BoED) without violating the vow, first because they are just a caretaker of the object, but also, by being intelligent, "ownership" would be in itself anathema - it is not owned, it is a partner.
Could an Oracle's Mysteries be usable as a replacement for an Exalted feat? Obviously, only certain mysteries would be appropriate, but still, they're "about" a feat in strength, and I wouldn't see these as stealing much thunder from the Oracle... actually a VoP Oracle might be really cool...
There are a handful of elements that go into making an effective VoP character.
- SAD. VoP only gives your best stat +8.
- No gear reliance. Weapon? No. Spellbook? No. Holy symbol? No.
- You need reliable flight and reliable ranged attack.
- You need to be able to heal yourself.
Honestly, you know what I'd recommend?
Human Zen Archer Monk 5/Paladin 2/Soulknife 1/Soulbow 1/Ardent X.
Feats you actually have to take: Monastic Training, Tashalatora, Serenity, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Practiced Manifester, Superior Unarmed Strike.
Zen Archer Monk gives you Wisdom to AC and to ranged attack rolls. Soulbow gives you Wisdom to damage. Serenity plus Divine Grace gives you Wisdom to all of your saving throws. Ardent manifests powers using Wisdom.
Practiced Manifester makes your Ardent ML equal to your Ardent level +4. Ardent's maximum power level is based on ML, so you're still getting 4th and 5th level powers. You're not a primary caster. You take the Freedom, Life, and Light and Darkness Mantles; you heal and you fly and you see in the dark, and that's it.
Tashalatora makes your Ardent levels add to your Monk levels for AC, unasrmed damage, flurry of blows, and speed. Superior Unarmed Strike means your unarmed attack is equal to a Monk of your HD-- the other dips don't matter-- and you can spend 1 Ki to deal your unarmed damage with your bow for 1 round.
The bonus Exalted feats from Vow of Poverty will ensure you qualify for the Saint template. You want this. It gives you DR 10/evil, Fast Healing, and more Wisdom. It may or may not allow you to apply your Wisdom to your AC twice.
Your job is to kill anything that even looks at your party funny. And you do that by pointing your "bang" finger at it until it falls down.