Salutations!
After leaving 2e, I'm finally getting back into pen and paper. One of the reasons I never got into 3e is it struck as a bit complicated with all of the feats and whatnot. 3.5 intimidated me more so. I have more time nowadays, so decided to try my hand at PF.
Sure, enough, however, I’m listening to a Pathfinder podcast… He was talking about GM’ing games…and how it always gets bogged down the higher level you get. His team was up to 12-13. He got burnt out and quit.
Now I'm reading boards and the such, and I notice that a lot of games don't seem to last into very high levels. It seems that the high level bog may be part of the issue. Is this true, in your experience? Does the game really bog down at the higher levels to the point of being detrimental to the game's enjoyment, especially for the GM?
I was reading another comment just now saying something along the lines that at high level it’s so hard for the GM to police everything that players can do, he just hopes that the player’s neighbor will holler if the player is fudging something. :P
I would love to hear thoughts from both players and GM's who have actually made it to the 12-20 range.
Depends.
If you are playing with people who optimize, making combat challenging without giving out XP by the bucket means you have to optimize your lineup as a GM. This takes a lot more work than cracking open the bestiary and using things with minor tweaks.
Setting up a high-level encounter takes much more time than setting up a low-level one. And when the boss-encounter you spent 7 hours on is shot down in round 2, it irks you. Just natural.
A smart wizard player can do just about anything. I have taken this into consideration in my games, making castles and important houses come default with a lead lining to prevent scry & fry of bosses, circumventing 20 pages of story.
I am playing Kingmaker, and the party is pushing lv13. The martial-minded characters have AC close to 40 and do well over 100 damage per round, with the highest total pushing 300 for the fighter, meaning anything level-appropriate needs a 20. If I send things to challenge THEM, I will murder the rest of the party.
But Kingmaker also gives you near infinite downtime to craft, so you will have optimal gear.
Sooo... yeah. GMing high level is a pain.
It has a hefty-ish price tag, but HeroLabs has been a lifesaver when it comes to DMing higher levels games. If only because it lets me build high level (mechanics) in 5-20 minutes. Plus it makes sure all build are at least following RAW if not RAI.
Ditto to the post above for actual playing stuff :)
I have successfully DM'd several Campaigns reaching the upper tiers of play, even epic, but it takes a lot of work to make it rewarding. Personally I prefer the lower levels of play since it is usually less about the numbers and powers and more about the characters, and way more easy to handle from the back of the screen.
I've come to the conclusion that the math really starts to break down around level 15. Not so much for the martial types but the casters start to torpedo reasonable assumptions. This is not a new problem, it has affected every edition at some point or another.
I am not sure it's a bad thing either. My semi regular group has 2 "powergaming hyper-optimizers" and 1 guy who is literally trying to find a legal way to cripple the CR system. Then I have 2 serious roleplayers. The low level stuff has much more roleplay (from all 5 players) the mid levels stay balanced, but legitimate puzzles/problems get magiked away. After level 13 however it becomes all tactical combat as the players try to bulldoze through the world around them; it is very rare that a real challenge can be structured inside the skill\ability\class feature system at this point. So at this point we either go free form RP for virtually every social encounter or just go the runaway train route to the campaign conclusion. Then we start over.
I really like the start over. IMO the hardest part of a campaign is at lvl 1-3. Not just for players who have to carefully pick their fights, allies and enemies but also for the GM who has to really be creative to make fun challenging encounters that are neither cake walks or total party kills.
Maybe I've just been playing and or GMing the wrong groups but games set in the level 17 - 25 range just start to get absurd in their pacing and actual game play. The 2 times I've gone higher than this (player only) I found myself daydreaming at the table about doing something else; in short I was bored ( and 1 of the GMs here was absolutely excellent at the job ).
As a DM I now avoid high level play, it's just so much prep. Our Kingmaker will go over the end adventure with the mass battle conclusion likely but here I get to have players do something that has been absent berore run whole armies and try to keep at least the bulk of their populace alive, now thats Epic.
Playing at high levels can be challenging, but I find it as fun as at lower levels.
One of the things that can bog down the game is buffing spells and dispels, pets and summoning. Both the GM and the players need to be well organized, to know what happens when spell xx is dispelled on their characters. Have sheets ready for summoned creatures, with all templates already applied. Have PC sheets with the various modifiers already calculated - ex: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Power Attack with Two-Weapon fighting, etc..
Both groups should get into the habit of rolling multiple dice at the same time, to resolve all the attacks in one set of rolling the dice. Either roll enough color coded D20s to know which hit, then roll the damage dice, or roll all at once, and use the color matching dice to know which damage dice to apply.
The GM also needs to think a bit outside of the box.
Get away from 30'x30' rooms with no terrain. Terrain can slow down full attack rounds, make life more complicated for the caster with lines of effect and sight.
Put groups with close range melee weapons with a group of reach weapons behind them, and you can also put in even longer reach weapons like whips in the 3rd line.
Have high level opponents use their abilities to the full extent - in one campaign I ran, the PCs faced off on a lot of thrikreen psi-warriors, who always had their powers up at the right time due to a BBG casting a wish spell, wishing that their powers were up.
Don't forget the mundane possibilities of wreaking havoc - 2 examples: In one campaign, once the PCs realized that someone was scrying on them all the time, they started to take precautions about that, but neglected to look at or review who was working in their keep - the scryer simply inserted a few spies as servants and got almost as much information; When the PCs started to teleport a lot, often making their escape that way, on of the BBGs looked over their tactics, and decided to put venetian blind like lead panels in the ceiling and lined all the walls, so once the alarms was raised, guards cranked shut the lead blinds, making it so that the players couldn't teleport away -put a very large does of fear into the players when their teleport didn't whisk them away -they didn't know why it stopped working- and they went from raiding to trying desperately to escape and conserve spells until they had done so.
I also put in a rule that simplified/sped up play. If a player doesn't agree with my interpretation or thinks that I have gotten a rule wrong - mid game is not the place to discuss it. If the players talks to me afterwards, if I am wrong, they may get a bonus of somekind, if they are wrong, no harm done. If they stop the game to discuss, if they are right, no bonus, but if they are wrong, there will be somekind of penalty. Since I put that rule in place, no one has stopped the game to try and convince me that I made a mistake - I have had a handfull afterwards.
|
It has a hefty-ish price tag, but HeroLabs has been a lifesaver when it comes to DMing higher levels games. If only because it lets me build high level (mechanics) in 5-20 minutes. Plus it makes sure all build are at least following RAW if not RAI.
This is the best reason to buy HeroLabs that I have ever heard. I love putting characters together by hand when I am a player. It lets me really understand what I am doing with that character. But when I DM I hate putting NPCs together as they will be dying much faster than they were created.
Now to take some money out of my gun budget.
My advice, is to use the slow XP progression, and set down with a group of friends who are interested in exploring the game as much as they are the world you show them. Go slow through things, and keep up to date with what your party can and can't do. Did the wizard just turn third level? Go through and read all the second level spells, even if you think you know what they do and how they work (invisibility might give you a start when you get to the duration, though that might have changed in Pathfinder).
If you talk to your group before hand and let everyone know (and make sure they all agree) that half the point of getting together is going to be to learn the rules, it goes a lot smoother. Make sure there is more than just one rule book, and get people to look stuff up themselves rather than asking you how the jump rules work while you're in the middle of combat underwater...
Doing all this will let you keep ahead of the game as it gets to the higher levels. I don't have a ton of experience with high level play in 3.whatever/pathfinder, but I honestly think a lot of the "breaking down at high levels" complaints are from people who didn't have a good understanding of the rules to begin with, or rushed ahead unprepared for what they were going to encounter. Not all of the compaints, just a lot of them.
Yes there is a problem at high lvls (starts at 10, and really becomes real at around 15).
The Problem is spells, your characters only have to manage theirs, but you need to have all the spells in world. Example: what's stopping someone from earth glide a castle into dust?
Also too many attacks and everything, it takes a lot longer. This problem accours the hardest for the GM's who just "wing it", who don't plan everything in detail.
Altough I know that games like Gurps don't have that problem so much, because they don't have classes, and less of a power creep, I still prefer Pathfinder, but I think it's most enjoyable at lvl 3 to 8.
My one shot campaigns are normally at lvl 5.
|
I've been dealing with similar issues myself. I'm running a game that just hit 15th level, and things have been out of control since around 13th level, when the game became so magic-heavy that it stopped looking like Fantasy and started looking like Supers.
For every broken out-of-combat spell, there's a counter. Forbiddance blocks teleport, no-questions-asked, and Private Sanctum blocks Scrying completely. Neither spell allows any sort of roll to beat it. If you can't get to the location itself to dispel, you're outta luck and have to do things the old fashioned way.
I try to think like the PCs when designing my villains, both in the mechanical optimization stage as well as with their plans and actions. Bad guys are usually more proactive in executing their evil plans than PCs, and they should be proactive in trying to deal with the PCs that are meddling in their affairs. Scry-and-fry the PCs. Get 'em while they're resting, low on spells, hit points, daily uses of class features, etc. That will present a challenge.
If the bad guy isn't of the right character class for that, they can have a hireling or lieutenant do it - no evil mastermind exists in a void.
I try to keep Shadowrun in mind. In any setting where magic is anywhere near "normal", people will have the time and energy to figure out how best to use it. No group of people intent on succeeding will try to do anything without at least one expert in any field that could completely wipe out the group. Dangerous, high-level monsters are usually smart and powerful, and if they don't have high-end magic themselves, if they think big, they'll find someone.
Now I'm reading boards and the such, and I notice that a lot of games don't seem to last into very high levels. It seems that the high level bog may be part of the issue. Is this true, in your experience? Does the game really bog down at the higher levels to the point of being detrimental to the game's enjoyment, especially for the GM?
It certainly can bog down. However, in the game I run, people know their character pretty well, and things go smoothly for the most part. But it certainly can get bogged down - it's just that I've seen low-level games get bogged down too. Nothing unique about bog.
I was reading another comment just now saying something along the lines that at high level it’s so hard for the GM to police everything that players can do, he just hopes that the player’s neighbor will holler if the player is fudging something. :P
Frankly, I don't bother.
I suppose some of the players could be cheating, but I'm not their mommy, and if they're cheating, well, that sucks but I don't intend to be the rules police and watch them like crazy. I view it all as collaborative fiction, after all, not as a string of combats, so in reality the fights are not the primary focus.
I do ask them about stuff on occasion, but mostly because I don't understand how they accomplished something. The way I see it, if you can't trust the people you're playing with not to cheat, one might ask whether it's worth playing with them in the first place.
I really appreciate all the responses, and I'm definitely going to run with most of the advice here. Along those lines, I followed chavamana's advice to look at hero lab. Wow! I fell in love immediately. I plunked down the money and started managing characters with it. Even at level one, it's great. And in running some high level hypothetical NPCs, it works really well. This program alone really helps me feel better about running the table.
What a few of you say raises another question or two that are off topic...so I might post those on another thread.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
- His team was up to 12-13. He got burnt out and quit.
- lot of games don't seem to last into very high levels
- It seems that the high level bog may be part of the issue.
Is this true, in your experience?
Most of this comes from inexperienced (at high level) DM's. You can't run (or even play) the game the same at level 15 as level 1.
Some helpful points for the GM at high level:
- If a player takes more than 30 seconds to tell you what he plans to do and 1 minute to do it, go to the next person (he loses a turn.)
- Once the player attacks, hits, and is rolling damage, go to the next person while waiting on damage total to be added.
- Don't write modules that are trivial to be negated by a spell (Teleport, etc) since they will not be interesting.
- You don't need to build every monster the PC's fight completely. Decided before combat (so don't change mid stream) how "tough" it should be and just wing it. You may not even worry about how many HP it has, and instead go with "2nd round of engagement with main fighter PC" for when it drops. The players shouldn't notice this happen, if they do you are not estimating correctly (so learn and do it better next time.)
- You must know what a PC can do, it is your job as a DM. So you need to know the action types of everything they can do, how they combine, etc. You can not and should not depend on players snitching.
I only enjoy level 10+, and I don't even play (by choice) less than 10th level games. I run a weekly 14th level game, and I play in two weekly 13th and 14th level games.
PFS is the only place where I sometimes (if the PC didn't get DM credit) where I will play from level 1. But the first 9 levels are just painful to play. Basically not fun at all unless the people at the table are awesome and just fun to be around.
I've had games explode around 12th-level because I had been too lenient with crazy builds and too eager to hand out overpowered loot. That's why now I'm careful to stick with a moderate game, played close to the guidelines.
What I find, as we hit higher levels, is that players sometimes gain so many options they simply can't remember to use all of them. But then, my groups tend to have a fair share of rules-lite players, so I think that is to be expected.
I do feel like there's a sweet spot between levels 6 and 9, maybe up to 10, where challenge is always on the mark, the level and number of abilities is just right, and for which the standard creature builds are perfect challenges. Whenever we leave that sweet spot, I feel a little sad.
That said, I think the real reason higher level games end for my group, is that they players get restless with having played the same thing for so long. That, and we get together so rarely that it seems like it's been going on forever!
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
what's stopping someone from earth glide a castle into dust?
Also too many attacks and everything, it takes a lot longer. This problem accours the hardest for the GM's who just "wing it", who don't plan everything in detail.
You can't earth glide a castle into dust because earth glide doesn't disturb the dirt. But your point is well suited to "Transmute Rock to Mud" and other type spells.
As for combat taking long, I have the opposite experience. The lower level, the longer combat takes. As you get higher level, you know your characters better, and combat is faster. Lower level people (DMs) tend to give lower level players longer amounts of time when they are indecisive on what they should do on your turn. I think you are experiencing the "spend 10 minutes before I perform my 6 second turn thinking of exactly what I should do" problem.
In short, a full attack of 6 to 8 attacks on 1 or more monsters should take less than 2 minutes at most to process. Roll 8 d20, have a written chart of what order and bonus each is (that the player creates and references) and if the player kills a monster, he then choses the next monster. Roll damage dice at the same time (if he almost always hits) or roll separate if he is roguish and miss a lot.
Also, again, I wanted to make it clear. You don't build all NPC's or monsters. So prep time isn't more than lower level. You pick a monster from bestiary, you buff him in one of many ways, you come up with new monsters you know will challenge your part. For instance, my 14th level game (the one I run) the party is mostly highly optimized. The last fight was a CR 16 with two CR 10's. The PC's won with two deaths. In other fights, CR 19's have been trivial. It comes down to knowing where your party will fall, and try not to kill them (by putting them up against things too hard.) It is also a good idea to pull punches, like if you thought they should have 3 harms in a day, but by the time they used the first and it kills the PC. Just mid session change that 3 to 1 and now you have used up your harms. The PC will never know and they will have a blast, because it was challenging but they still won.
I love high-level games, too. Definitely use the slow progression table, and don't be surprised when they blow through your encounters with things you didn't anticipate. Learn from it. Characters at those levels are probably very well-known, and have important places in the game world. They can't ignore their responsibilities for long. They need to have time limits, and multiple obligations.
As a player, I love being able to finally cast those awesome spells, kill dragons with a toothpick, and be just generally one of the baddest people on the planet. For me, stopping at 12th is like watching the first 2 LOTR movies and never seeing the third.
|
RPG Superstar 2013
|
My campaigns always run from low level to epic level. I have as much fun at every phase, but it does require different levels of preparation or a different kind of GMing.
One of the things I do to craft challenging encounters is I try not to have something that does too much. I script the play for monsters so they are doing something on a program. If they have extra feats, magic items or abilities, I amp the abilities I am likely to use during the game, and don't waste time on abilities that won't impact the party or that make the creature less challenging. For example, I might take Ability Focus or QSLA for an ability that threatens the party, but I'm not bothering with any poison if they are casting heroe's feast every day. It doesn't matter how amny neat abilities a high CR monster has if it's only going to last five or 8 rounds, or if the PCs are immune (though sometimes I'll soften an encounter by wasting a round on something that doesn't affect the characters).
Another thing I do is I give them too much to do and create a sense of urgency. Sure, they could pack a lunch and clean out all of Beholderville by nightfall if forced to, but evil persists if the party is torn in different directions and they have to choose something. This allows you to set up the next challenging story arc, and sometimes manipulate them.
Finally, you have to immerse them into a political world. The guys I play with, there's really no stopping them from killing the tarrasque or whatever else. I can design encounters that strike a balance between mushville and killnig them mercilessly, but ultimately, the game is biased towards there success (as it should be). By epic levles, everyone want to show off how they can throw down 200 damage in a round, but they also want something more. You crafted a story full of big ideas to get them there, so you have to pay it off with rank, titles, and connections. My group will sit and roleplay without ocmbat for a long time as long as their interest are being served in some way, and as long as they know crunchtime is in the making.
High level games require commitment and work, at least until you get a few under your belt. They really require you o know your pary and have their trust. They require a certain level of evil and homicidal amnia so you can craft re-ocurring nemeses. But most importantly, they require storytelling. Without an epic plot and backdrop, most players will get bored with killing everything in round one or two after a few weeks.
That's a matter of perception. For me LOTR remained a low to mid level style of play clear to the end of the series. While there were high level figures, they're mostly background chessmasters and set pieces like Gandalf, Elrond, Sauron, Galadriel, and the Witch King. The main characters themselves, Frodo, Aragorn, Samwise etc. would still be solidly within the midlevels, say maybe 8th to 12th by the time the series ended.I love high-level games, too. Definitely use the slow progression table, and don't be surprised when they blow through your encounters with things you didn't anticipate. Learn from it. Characters at those levels are probably very well-known, and have important places in the game world. They can't ignore their responsibilities for long. They need to have time limits, and multiple obligations.
As a player, I love being able to finally cast those awesome spells, kill dragons with a toothpick, and be just generally one of the baddest people on the planet. For me, stopping at 12th is like watching the first 2 LOTR movies and never seeing the third.
If I may, I believe the intent of B.D.E.s allusion was to say that abandoning a game before playing at the highest levels is equivalent to not watching the final movie of the trilogy.
One of the things I do to craft challenging encounters is I try not to have something that does too much. I script the play for monsters so they are doing something on a program. If they have extra feats, magic items or abilities, I amp the abilities I am likely to use during the game, and don't waste time on abilities that won't impact the party or that make the creature less challenging. For example, I might take Ability Focus or QSLA for an ability that threatens the party, but I'm not bothering with any poison if they are casting heroe's feast every day. It doesn't matter how amny neat abilities a high CR monster has if it's only going to last five or 8 rounds, or if the PCs are immune (though sometimes I'll soften an encounter by wasting a round on something that doesn't affect the characters).
It's amazing how many abilities that monsters have become largely irrelevant at high levels, especially poison. And most things that do affect the party rarely do for more than one round. Sure, they don't walk around with mass death ward all the time, it only lasts a short time, but after one round against a level drainer, you know it's getting dropped on the party.
Finally, you have to immerse them into a political world. The guys I play with, there's really no stopping them from killing the tarrasque or whatever else. I can design encounters that strike a balance between mushville and killnig them mercilessly, but ultimately, the game is biased towards there success (as it should be). By epic levles, everyone want to show off how they can throw down 200 damage in a round, but they also want something more. You crafted a story full of big ideas to get them there, so you have to pay it off with rank, titles, and connections. My group will sit and roleplay without ocmbat for a long time as long as their interest are being served in some way, and as long as they know crunchtime is in the making.
+1
You might get away with no plot at low levels, but if there's no plot at uber-high levels, the game will fall apart very quickly. The players have to buy into what is happening so that they attempt to do realistic things.
One huge thing I try to do with every single monster and encounter is make it real - something that could plausibly be where it is for some reason. This means there aren't ancient red dragons crawling out of the woodwork, there's not primal elementals raging around the country (well, actually, yeah, sometimes there are, but that's for a reason), and they have yet to encounter any devastation vermin.
This also means that there are virtually no encounters tailored for the PCs, and this means that many encounters are easier than they could be. Do I care? Heck no, as the point of the game isn't finding the next combat, it's getting by any combats that they might encounter to move the plot forward.
Another thing I do is I give them too much to do and create a sense of urgency. Sure, they could pack a lunch and clean out all of Beholderville by nightfall if forced to, but evil persists if the party is torn in different directions and they have to choose something. This allows you to set up the next challenging story arc, and sometimes manipulate them.
Exactly!
There is an overall plot (save the world, of course, this is an epic-level campaign), but there are also things that they do along the way that are not necessarily directly related to their quest.
Also, because they're not exactly sure how to solve their overarching problem, it's not like they can make a beeline for a location and solve it - they still have to investigate, find pieces of information, and reconstruct ancient events.
But there's one other thing, and I've found this to be important in every campaign I've run.
Keep the characters lean. I don't mean limit their characters' abilities, because that's what players like to do - improve their characters, and frankly, as GM, anything they can do, you can foil - you have infinite resources.
What I mean is to keep treasure at a minimum. A bare minimum. It's often the incredible quantity of magic items that the characters have access to that causes many of the issues. My players have told me that other people are astounded at how little magic they have for their level - but that's by design, and it helps control the power.
--
So, in short:
- Have time pressure.
- Have lots to do - more than they can do.
- Prioritize plot over combat - not to exclusion, but combats become boring - a plot does not.
- Keep treasure low - very low.
That's my 4 cents, anyways.
Besides, if you do spend two hours working on one encounter, that will be the one that takes 1 or 2 rounds to be over, leaving you completely frustrated. I'd rather wing an encounter in two minutes, that way if the PCs handle it with one crit or one spell, you can move on to something else.
I love making high level enemies, and I love spending the time to get them just right, too. So for me, winging it wouldn't really be an option since I wouldn't be satisfied then :)
As for the frustration aspect, I usually don't get frustrated. Even if my 2-hour NPCs go down in 1 round. The only time I've been frustrated so far was when I had spent two days building and perfecting an NPC, for whom I had great plans for the future of the campaign, and it ended up eating a Sphere of Annihilation..
All of the advice in this thread is awesome for anyone who isn't like me though, and most of it is great for me too ;)
Well, since I make far more creatures (including things like cyclopes with class levels, etc.) than actual NPCs, I can reuse a lot of what I create - it's not like every creature is a throwaway.
And besides, some of those 1-round combats can take an hour when you've got a table of 5 epic level characters against a half-dozen epic opponents. This is especially true because I tend have multiple initiative points for the opponents to make it a more interesting battle - it's *really* dull for the players if I put all N creatures in one initiative spot and then have to spend all that time running them all.
That's another reason I like multiple opponents instead of one BBEG. With multiple opponents, its much easier for everyone to have something to do. And if I dump a dozen under-CR creatures on them as well as a few actual opponents (which is a pretty realistic scenario anyways), everyone is busy on their turn.
I've GM'ed about three home-brewn campaigns which went to level 20, before throwing my hands up and going with AP's from Paizo, because I wanted to do less mental work and still have a polished campaign. Although my prep time went up immensely, go figure. ^^
Now that I just finished my first AP two days ago ( CotCT ), I want to share some, hopefully, slightly useful experiences for running an AP.
- Finishing a campaign at level 16-17 is a really good idea. Going to level 20 would be painful, because casters have so much possibilities to screw over the plot. I can count myself lucky that my players did not use the possibilities they already would have had at level 14-15, like plane shifting and such things.
- Reign in item crafting. Normally that is not as much of a problem, because the standard plot of an AP won't give the PC's enough downtime to go really crazy. But I am starting Kingmaker in a few weeks, as soon as my players can all make it for the starting session. I already have forbid item crafting completely and also plundering the city coffers. There are tons of horror stories of campaigns gone off the rails because of these two factors on the Kingmaker board.
- Know the rules. The end fight in CotCT ended about two rounds too early, because a player mashed up two spell effects and I accepted what he told me at face value without checking back. He didn't do it on purpose, but it ended up with the BBEG autostunned after a critical, which did her in after the rest of the attacks for the remainder of the round landed.
- Have the players build their characters with the standard 15 point buy. It forces some tough decisions and leaves little room for complete min-maxing. Also, the AP's are written with the assumption of that exact point-buy. Having the players roll attributes with 4d6, drop lowest, means that they will normally outpower the presented encounters. This gets even more noticeable later on in the campaign, when DC's for spells cast by the PC's begin to reach astronomical levels.
- Don't be afraid to have the villains use some extra consumables. Since NPC's have very little money to spend on their equipment in comparison to PC's, they normally have problems hitting even slightly optimized characters. So give them stuff like Oil of Greater Magic Weapon +5. It costs 3.000 GP, but it really helps out to make the opponent at least slightly less of a roadbump. You can still have that opponent use the normal +1 or +2 magic weapon assigned to him by the writers of the AP.
- At about level 10, you should begin to think about combining several of the presented encounters into one. For whatever reason Paizo still likes to place single target high CR encounters, which normally means that the encounter ends in two rounds, because the economy of actions works so efficiently against the single opponent. Put in some mooks with the high CR opponent or team him up with one or two of his buddies. It'll probably mean that the PC's will encounter a few additional empty rooms, but you'll feel better as GM when your players felt at least slightly worried for their PC's. In CotCT, I combined five regular encounters into one CR 19 1/2 encounter for the five level fourteen PC's. They still rolled the opposition without a single loss, but it was a lot more memorable than having those five encounters be auto-wins for them.
While I can wing it, I prefer not to.
I do spend the time building NPCs, whether they are classed, monsters or monsters with class levels.
I don't have a problem with them going down in a single round. The reason for that is that I keep them in a nice little file on my computer. This allows me to pull up previous NPCs to use again as is with a different name (example: Captain of the guard, Korvosa, name xxx), or with a slight change (changing longsword fighting creature to a scimitar fighting one if that is what the scenario calls for). This also allows for me to have the stats if the story calls for, or allows for, the NPC to come back from the dead, or even apply a ghost or such template to them.
I'm running a campaign that began at 14th level... characters are nearly 19th and we will probably finish up within the next couple months.
Burnout is only hitting about now, and this has gone on for about 2 years (sessions once a month). Levels 14-17 went pretty well for me, and for the most part I've had a lot of fun--and still am having fun, despite some rising recent frustrations.
What I have ENJOYED is being able to imagine things on a really grand scale... rather than have them fight a handful of mooks, deal with really "epic" encounters and situations (they're involved in a civil war right now). A lot of things about high level campaigns takes the limits off of what you can and can't do, and once you let yourself have fun with that, you can come up with some fun ideas.
What I do NOT enjoy is combat preparation, and making up high level enemies, for the following reasons:
- High level monsters are mostly limited to dragons, outsiders, and undead, with a few random high level but very circumstance specific creatures like the shoggoth. Even if you're going with the concept of attacking the party with a group of lower-CR creatures rather than 1 or 2 equal CR creatures--and that's generally a good idea--there is only so much to choose from, and it limits the possibilities of where your campaign takes place (the planes, a dragon's den, somewhere where there are a lot of undead and/or outsiders, etc.) unless you're prepared to homebrew a lot of your own enemies.
- Homebrewing your own high level enemies is insanely time consuming. One of the biggest mistakes I've made for this campaign--and mind, I'm generally enjoying it, but I still consider this a mistake--is putting the PCs in a place where there are a lot of high level spellcasters. It seemed like a good idea, as high level spellcasters are formidable opponents, after all. Until I realized all the spells I not only had to pick out, but keep track of all those spells and figure out what to cast during combat. Sure you can have a plan of attack with what gets cast first, but you can't always anticipate player moves and may have to come up with a new strategy on the fly. It takes awhile to build a high level NPC and/or boost a monster's hit dice or add class levels to it, even with electronic aids (I make judicious use of PC Gen to make these things go much faster, but it's still a time consuming process--if nothing else you still need to make sure your build is good). I actually paid someone on these boards to help write up some NPC blocks so I'd have some good to go.
- High level PCs and high CR monsters tend--with exceptions of course--to have a billion abilities to track, be they feats, spells, or other abilities. And usually half you have to look up in Universal Monster Rules and the other half, spells in the Core book (and now with the Bestiary 2, the APG, since many Bestiary 2 monster SLAs are in the APG...). You either have to memorize what these billion abilities do, or look them up during the game, which can take time. It doesn't help that many SLAs aren't nice easy fire and forget spells, but things with durations to track and many different permutations to track based on alignment, etc. It is MUCH easier if you can have Internet access---using the online PRD is the best thing to do in this situation because you can pull up a monster statblock and click on the nice handy link to a special ability you need a description of like that. But I don't always have Internet access... and it also doesn't apply to the Bestiary II because it's not up on the PRD yet (if it ever will be)--which is a shame because the Bestiary II improves options for high CR creatures (maybe it's on d20pfsrd, but I prefer the way the PRD is organized).
The "billion ability" syndrome also makes running encounters with large numbers of creatures more difficult--which is frustrating, because of course that tends to provide the better challenge. But tracking who cast what 1/day SLA when can get tricky---doable (I keep a lot of notes during combat) but tricky.
I've worked hard on trying to come up with custom stat blocks that make referencing abilities easy while still having readable stat blocks but haven't come up with anything perfect.... and of course copy-pasting and reorganizing statblocks is also time consuming in its own right.
A lot of this can become easier with practice and if you're good at memorizing rules and abilities it may not be as a big a deal.
My general advice on running high level campaigns (based a lot more on what I've learned than what I've done):
1. Rather than worry about stopping your PCs from teleporting to whereever they're going (or using other utility spells in a way that might speed their progress), just assume they'll do it and focus on what happens when they get there instead.
2. High level PCs are legendary. They're not concerned about one dungeon or rescuing one person... they are working with nations or planes, rescuing whole cities. Often what is at stake for them is something intangible---something religious or political or even personal. Pathfinder magic has cures for nearly everything, but not love or hate or civil unrest.
3. Don't be afraid to use electronic aids. They are your friend and can help speed your prep time. Keep your notes on your laptop.
4. Also use the battlegrid in some regard. Even if you're not a big minis fan, it's helpful to see generally where things are even if you don't plot out every move. You can also do combat tracking on the grid--just write down various things to track right on the battlesheet (something I'm planning to do next session).
5. Sandboxy campaigns tend to work better than linear crawls. High level characters have so many ways to get through various obstacles, physical and figurative, that they need general goals and different paths to choose from. I find it IS good to plot out general villain goals, important setting traits, etc. but not very specific turns down very specific paths.
6. Provide a reasonable time crunch. If high level characters are able to frequently rest, very little is a challenge for them. It is important however to still provide some downtime--everyone needs that at some point. Finding that balance can be hard but it is important.
7. Write up a few standard monster and NPC statblocks, and then apply different gear, templates, or other tweaks to them to make each different.
That's all I can think of right now.
How much of a pain in it is to run a high-level game very much depends on who you are playing with and what the set-up is like.
I have run a grup of characters from 1st to epic through the initial series of 3E modules and because they have built up in power slowly and evolved together as personalities it isn't a problem.
I eventually ran the retooling of Against the Giants for them at epic level but ran it as a miltiary and political campaign.
The biggest mistake I have ever made running high-level games is thinking that everything always has to be bigger, better or badder.
One of the most enjoyable games I found to run was letting a high-level illusionist play at being a rogue in a standard D&D city. I didn't up the ante just because she was able to spell her way out of trouble and the player responded by trying to be inventive in the crimes they committed.
Low-level play forces players to be imaginative but high-level play can swamp them with options.
If you are running for a pick-up group of strangers then you need to know your stuff better than when you game with your buddies (assuming they normally cut you some slack).
The only real limit as to what character level you allow your game to progress to is the point at which it becomes more like work and less like play for you and your group.
What I do NOT enjoy is combat preparation, and making up high level enemies, for the following reasons:
- High level monsters are mostly limited to dragons, outsiders, and undead, with a few random high level but very circumstance specific creatures like the shoggoth. Even if you're going with the concept of attacking the party with a group of lower-CR creatures rather than 1 or 2 equal CR creatures--and that's generally a good idea--there is only so much to choose from, and it limits the possibilities of where your campaign takes place (the planes, a dragon's den, somewhere where there are a lot of undead and/or outsiders, etc.) unless you're prepared to homebrew a lot of your own enemies.
- Homebrewing your own high level enemies is insanely time consuming. One of the biggest mistakes I've made for this campaign--and mind, I'm generally enjoying it, but I still consider this a mistake--is putting the PCs in a place where there are a lot of high level spellcasters. It seemed like a good idea, as high level spellcasters are formidable opponents, after all. Until I realized all the spells I not only had to pick out, but keep track of all those spells and figure out what to cast during combat. Sure you can have a plan of attack...
First, I want to continue to thank EVERYONE for writing. I've been taking notes on the advice you have been giving me. This is great stuff!
DeathQuaker, I wanted to answer this concern...only because I found the answer earlier in a response someone gave me.
Because of their advice, I picked up HeroLabs with all the relevant PF add ins (including Beastiery). I can't tell you how much time this program saves in making high level NPCs. It also allows you to quickly and easily take monsters and add levels of any type to them. Last, but most certainly not least, it's not hard at all to activate a number of spell abilities on those mobs ahead of time. So, if you know the baddie is going to have time to cast a few prep spells before his encounter, add those spell effects onto the baddie with a few mouse clicks, and he's good to go for your game!
This program has so many other side benefits, such as showing me the total overall worth of characters, so I can see if they're getting out of balance with the recommended PF gold amounts that a person should have, in gear, at each level.
The thing about high level NPC's is the number of options. If you are a player you get to grow into those options so you are very effective with that character, but if you make a character at a high level you often forget to use things. I often have a strategy section at the end of my stat block that at least reminds me of certain things.
You also should decide how you want to use him(the NPC) before the fight. I don't mean just casting spells. What spells will you be casting in what order because they combo together well is a good example.
everyone who said it takes alot of work isnt kidding..
my next encounter 18 advanced template 6th lvl warrior orcs with swords 18 advanced template 6th lvl warrior orcs with long bows(in ramparts perfect cover) 94 goblins (as is in book) 4 ogers advanced to CR 9
TOTAL CR 17
thats the FIRST encounter of a dungeon.
simply put high level games take ALOT to run. its not just "grab x monster and run with it" also...storyline
in a world where the PC's literally are saving the world... what about NPC's?? what are they doing? how do they help or hinder the PC's???
what about that red dragon the PC's always thought was evil but is actually neutral and has helped the pc's out... ( he loves his home after all)
what about gods?? .. in my world... well.. one of my players reads this board i wont ruin the surprise for him... lets just say.. there WILL be LG paladins fighting LG paladins in my game... and there is a DAMN good reason for it...
and That encounter could possibly force them to flee... after all.. there are 3 wizards in the group....
wait wizards are broken right????.... eh.. perfect cover.. = improved evastion.. and 6 levels of warrior with advanced template means they will need TONS more than just 'fireball"
bottom line.. high level play takes alot of thought from a DM..
Running my game to 16th level from lvl 1 over 3 years I've learned one thing...
if you want "epic" and "high level" you have to consider the first 10 levels as "getting to know you"
I mean it.. the very first 10 levels are char development. ussally by 5 you have something you can sink your teeth into but by 10 every player needs its own adventure within the overall large adventure...
in my game... a cr 24 litch everyone hates... they killed him... at level 13.. someone brought him back as a litch....
the paladin.... always worried about her reputation...unwittingly releasing an artifact in the world...
the dark brooding wizard who is always at ends with herself
the perfectionist eldrich...
I am assuming your players are at least level 15. With the bad guys that far below your groups APL how are they going to compete. This is not a criticism. I just want to see if you have discovered a trick I don't know yet.
DeathQuaker, I wanted to answer this concern...only because I found the answer earlier in a response someone gave me.Because of their advice, I picked up HeroLabs with all the relevant PF add ins (including Beastiery). I can't tell you how much time this program saves in making high level NPCs. It also allows you to quickly and easily take monsters and add levels of any type to them. Last, but most certainly not least, it's not hard at all to activate a number of spell abilities on those mobs ahead of time. So, if you know the baddie is going to have time to cast a few prep spells before his...
As I noted in my original post, I already use PC Gen for this purpose, which does all the same things, and it helps immensely. I have also used HeroLab and am fully aware of what it is capable of. (However, I don't like HeroLab's output, I don't like the way it fits in the screen, and I definitely don't like paying what I personally consider an unnecessarily exorbitant sum for OGL datasets when I have already purchased the software, so I use PC Gen, which has outputs I prefer, I much prefer the way the creation screens are tabbed out even if the GUI isn't as pretty, and it's all free. I can happily wait the longer time it takes for the PC Gen volunteers to code up new materials. This is MY personal preference; it is not a judgment on yours or anyone else's, I have used both programs, tested things out thoroughly, and made my choice based on my extensive experience with both programs.)
It's not just about building characters quickly--it's about building them WELL. Making sure I've picked out everything I need to pick out, making sure I haven't overlooked something random like a costly spell component or whatever, planning the tactics the creature will use on the party. It is very easy to sit in HeroLab or PC Gen for HOURS and just click on various options to see what they look like... and I've done so. :) Just because it's faster to do on a computer doesn't necessarily make it "fast" -- after all, it's not just about randomly picking abilities, it's about making appropriate challenges for the party, and that requires a lot of thought and planning that no computer program can speed up.
It's not just about building characters quickly--it's about building them WELL. Making sure I've picked out everything I need to pick out, making sure I haven't overlooked something random like a costly spell component or whatever, planning the tactics the creature will use on the party. It is very easy to sit in HeroLab or PC Gen for HOURS and just click on various options to see what they look like... and I've done so. :) Just because it's faster to do on a computer doesn't necessarily...
Yeah...I could tell from your OP you probably put a ton more thought into encounters than I do :) That's not wrong. It's just different GM styles. (Conversely, I spend TONS of time thinking up of the story and plot...not to imply you do or don't) To put it in perspective, I had one encounter with fire bettles for the group (cute little things). I used HeroLab to quickly import them. It asked me how many. I just made up a number (6 sounded good). I asked the player with the minatures to put 6 bug icons on the board. He did...and he found this on really BIG bug. He said, "Look! It's a mother bug. Do you need this?" I said "Sure! Why not! They should have a queen bug looking over them!" The group laughed...and then groaned as they realized they would have to fight something tougher. I quickly copied one of the fire beetles and used Hero Lab to give him a couple of more monster levels. Viola! Mother bug! LOLZ. I even told the group, if they died, they could blame the guy with the miniatures. If they won, they just earned a few hundred more XP.
As far as daily abilities, details and the such... I use the Beastiary as a guide, but not a rule book. When I put Mephits in an encounter, on the fly I decided they should be able to through fireballs at will (These were tiny 5' fireballs requiring a touch attack to just hit). That was a change I made right on the fly. In my mind, it wasn't much different than a lv 1 mage cantrip, so it couldn't be Overpowered. And you could probably guess, but I didn't track how many times they used it (Cantrip abilities at 1st level should probably be around 3 times/day)
I've done up to 5th lv encounters so far. Usually, the best battles are against humanoids, since they are the easiest to balance. You're right in that players tend to have the upper hand because they have more experience with their skills and combo well. But my villian NPCs have GM power! It's not unusual for me to give them an extra level, higher stats (including arbitrary save/AC bonuses), special preparation (including spells/buffs already cast, as well as battlefield positioning) or a special weapon/feat/armor (not always recoverable) to make it a more fair fight. These are easy things to give to mobs, on the fly. Mind you, I *do* prep, but it's not a super ton of prepping. If someone were ever to figure out that my baddies aren't exactly by the book, I'd point out, "That's why they're the bad guys...they cheat!"
Of course, my group hasn't got to 15th level like many of you. Hopefully between my growing bag of tricks, and many of the tips given here, I'll be ready for those days.
Like I said, I'm not criticizing your style. I think your players probably respect and appreciate the fact that you carefully balance the counters and detail them carefully within the ruleset. I have a couple of players who would LOVE to run in a campaign like that! They like to play a tight game where the battles emphasize more the tactical challenge. I could very certainly see the challenge for GM's to come up with high level encounters that meet all those guidelines and play them proficiently as well.
It's not just about building characters quickly--it's about building them WELL. Making sure I've picked out everything I need to pick out, making sure I haven't overlooked something random like a costly spell component or whatever, planning the tactics the creature will use on the party. It is very easy to sit in HeroLab or PC Gen for HOURS and just click on various options to see what they look like... and I've done so. :) Just because it's faster to do on a computer doesn't necessarily make it "fast" -- after all, it's not just about randomly picking abilities, it's about making appropriate challenges for the party, and that requires a lot of thought and planning that no computer program can speed up.
+1
In fact, that's why I stopped using PCGen a few years back (well, one of many reasons).
While I appreciate making creatures precisely correct, it didn't really make much of a difference, and spending an extra 10 minutes on every creature making sure its skills were 100% accurate really wasn't worth the time (expecially when that's only part of the picture).
These days I just do it all in MSWord; I have documents for all of the templates, and a HUGE monster codex I've built over the past 5 years, and I just Alt-TAB back and forth like a madman. I also find myself had-waving a lot of stuff for creatures that are mooks - do I really care what skills and feats the guy in the red shirt has? He's not likely to last more than one round anyways.
Now, for the actual baddies, they get the full treatment, but for many creatures, something as simple as "22 HD cyclops with 10 levels of fighter, hp x, AC y, BAB +Z, attack +A, damage 2d8+20" is pretty darn close to sufficient.
And it helps that I'm not randomly creating stuff - since there's an overall rationale for the world, they do encounter the same type of creatures more than once, so I don't have to do everything from scratch (though it is fun, and I'm looking forward to statting up next month's jabberwock).
This thread really makes me worry.
I too just got back from a misventure with 4e (it stopped making sense to me) and got both the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
I've been reading about prep time and how hard it is to DM at high levels, and somehow I don't think I'll ever manage that.
I'm not done reading the book yet (it's not even in my native language, so it takes a little more time than normal), so I'm kinda lost when it comes to creature/NPC creating, but it seems the common opinion that 15lv+ is DM's hell.
I play with a group that learns the game playing it: they WON'T read the books, that I'm certain of. That'll probably slow the game down a LOT.
Also, I don't really have time to prepare that much, and it seems that the creatures of the Bestiary alone won't do it with a high level party.
Yeah...I could tell from your OP you probably put a ton more thought into encounters than I do :) That's not wrong. It's just different GM styles.
It's not just about building characters quickly--it's about building them WELL. Making sure I've picked out everything I need to pick out, making sure I haven't overlooked something random like a costly spell component or whatever, planning the tactics the creature will use on the party. It is very easy to sit in HeroLab or PC Gen for HOURS and just click on various options to see what they look like... and I've done so. :) Just because it's faster to do on a computer doesn't necessarily...
And to be fair, I am learning over time to wing things a bit more and not sweat the details when they're not important. I think some of this can depend on player style too... hypothetically if you have players who really are meticulous about how different things work, it can "inspire" a GM to try and be more meticulous about things... and it's a good lesson for a GM to learn, of any level campaign, when to learn when to deal with the devil in the details and when to loosen things up for the sake of fun and ease.
In fact, that's why I stopped using PCGen a few years back (well, one of many reasons).While I appreciate making creatures precisely correct, it didn't really make much of a difference, and spending an extra 10 minutes on every creature making sure its skills were 100% accurate really wasn't worth the time (expecially when that's only part of the picture).
These days I just do it all in MSWord; I have documents for all of the templates, and a HUGE monster codex I've built over the past 5 years, and I just Alt-TAB back and forth like a madman. I also find myself had-waving a lot of stuff for creatures that are mooks - do I really care what skills and feats the guy in the red shirt has? He's not likely to last more than one round anyways.
I still like my PC gen obviously but I also tend to copy paste statblocks into Word (my own preference) and re-use with slight tweaks for various things---takes time to work them up, but in the future saves a lot of prep time. Print them out and save them in places--and can print from other people's computers in a pinch.
This thread really makes me worry.
I too just got back from a misventure with 4e (it stopped making sense to me) and got both the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
I've been reading about prep time and how hard it is to DM at high levels, and somehow I don't think I'll ever manage that.
I'm not done reading the book yet (it's not even in my native language, so it takes a little more time than normal), so I'm kinda lost when it comes to creature/NPC creating, but it seems the common opinion that 15lv+ is DM's hell.
I play with a group that learns the game playing it: they WON'T read the books, that I'm certain of. That'll probably slow the game down a LOT.
Also, I don't really have time to prepare that much, and it seems that the creatures of the Bestiary alone won't do it with a high level party.
Don't worry, Devilstrider! This thread I hope is meant to help and not scare people.
A few thoughts:
1. You're new to Pathfinder. I would suggest not even thinking about running a high level game right now (I would suggest the same for most RPG systems, even pretty light-mechanics ones). Right now just getting the basics down, and there's plenty of fun to be had at low levels before you ever even think about a high level game.
2. Re-read the thread carefully. The biggest complaint is it takes a lot of prep work, and that's true. But this thread is also full of a lot of good advice about how to speed up that prep time and deal with various common issues.
3. I will reiterate something I said earlier: Overall, I've had a lot of FUN running my high level game, and I've read similar feedback from other GMs here and elsewhere. Absolutely I've gotten frustrated at times (I've also gotten frustrated at running 2nd and 5th and 9th and... sometimes GMing is hard... but I wouldn't do it if it weren't ultimately a blast), but I have no regrets running this game. It IS a lot of work but that doesn't make it impossible or not worth doing.
4. Advice from one GM to another: while new players shouldn't be expected to memorize the core rulebook (especially not a 476 page one), it is more than reasonable to expect your characters to focus on learning how to play their character. For example, if I'm going to play a bard, I'm going to study the Bardic Performance rules and make sure I have it absolutely DOWN how that ability works, how long it lasts, etc. As a new player with a bard, I may have no clue how a cleric's channel energy works, but that's okay, as long as I know what I'm doing with my character. It IS the role of the GM to provide rules guidance and arbitration, it is NOT the role of the GM to learn and play the game for everyone else. You have every right and perhaps obligation to lay down a clear expectation that while you do not expect perfection, you do expect players to learn the game well enough that they can play their character most of the time without difficulty. If you think your players aren't even going to bother to do that, that's a player problem that transcends rulesets, and one you seriously need to deal with before ANY campaign in ANY RPG is begun.
Really, if I have any REAL complaint about high level adventuring, it's that GMs who want to run high level games are left with extremely little official support of how to do it. Part of WHY it takes so long to prep games is because there are no or very few 15+ modules, scenarios, adventure hooks. There's not even any good advice about running a high level game in the GMG that I can recall. Paizo has more or less pretty much made it clear, however gently, that if you're running a 15+ game, you're SOL for support and you have to do all the work yourself (or hope you find a quality 3PP adventure)---and to be fair, high level adventures etc. don't sell well. They're not worth the printing expenses, and moreover, writing a standard adventure for a legendary level party is not easy because level 15+ PCs cannot be railroaded down a linear path. (However, Paizo has shown they can write good sandboxy material, so....)
There's been occasional mumblings of some support for high level games down the line, and I hope that by the time you're comfortable enough with Pathfinder to give running a high level game a whirl, there will be more official support for 15+ games out there. But even if there's not, there's always these boards for advice and ideas---and in the meantime, probably definitely a lot of fan created and 3PP material to fill in the gaps.
I would suggest not even thinking about running a high level game right now (I would suggest the same for most RPG systems, even pretty light-mechanics ones). Right now just getting the basics down, and there's plenty of fun to be had at low levels before you ever even think about a high level game.
+1
I think that a lot of the fun is in the journey, and if you can't play at low levels you'll have a hard time at high levels.
In fact, that's one reason that in general I'm opposed to one-off high-level adventures - I like a gritty, real-seeming world. When someone sits down and knocks off a high-level character, they're not creating something real - they're cherry picking what they want regardless of whether it would have been feasible at lower levels.
That problem gets worse the higher level the character is; it's one of the reasons I will probably never accept new players at my epic game - every character there fought for every one of their levels, and letting someone create an optimal uber-high-level character completely breaks it down - that character will clearly be an exercise in optimization rather than one that grew organically.
After all, it's easy to dip 7 or more levels into a class when you've got 40 or more levels to play with - it's much harder to do the same thing when you're actively playing the character at every level.
This thread really makes me worry.
I too just got back from a misventure with 4e (it stopped making sense to me) and got both the Core Rulebook and the Bestiary.
I've been reading about prep time and how hard it is to DM at high levels, and somehow I don't think I'll ever manage that.
I'm not done reading the book yet (it's not even in my native language, so it takes a little more time than normal), so I'm kinda lost when it comes to creature/NPC creating, but it seems the common opinion that 15lv+ is DM's hell.
I play with a group that learns the game playing it: they WON'T read the books, that I'm certain of. That'll probably slow the game down a LOT.
Also, I don't really have time to prepare that much, and it seems that the creatures of the Bestiary alone won't do it with a high level party.
Don't worry about high level yet. Start with 1st level, pick an adventure path, and go to town. By the time you get there, you'll have a better handle on things.
I'm currently running a 12th level game, and prep time now isn't significantly higher than it was at 3rd, largely because I use a lot of time-saving techniques I've picked up along the way. We'll see what 17th is like, but I suspect it'll be similar.
I lean on the electronic tools a lot, but that's because math makes my brain hurt. :P I spend a lot more time in the "coming up with neat ideas" part than in the "creating stat blocks" part.
-The Gneech
Lots of great advice
Excellent post!
Thanks a lot for replying guys, I feel more confident now. Although the game is really rules heavy, I'm just loving every single inch of it, and the fact that it gives me so many possibilities makes me itch to play.
I'll start slow to fell the game and let the adventure develop. I'm picking Rise of the Runelords as a starting AP, so let's see what happens!
Thanks a loT! Again! It's great to know we have a good supporting community also!
I've been running a game since 1st level and they are up to 15th level now.
The trick at higher level is to be very flexible. High level characters have a lot of powers available. Let them be creative. Don't plan big dungeon slogs. Setup interesting situations. Problems can start to be global or even planar.
Also, fudge things. I don't worry about building all the math for stats. If I need a high level caster I just figure out what the save DC is and cast whatever the villain needs. AC, hp, saves, attacks are all you need. Borrow stuff from monsters of the appropriate CR. You shouldn't spend hours building stats for a critter that will die in less than five rounds.
I'm running Coliseum Morpheoun right now and it's a blast.
Just be sure your players don't catch or they don't care about fudging.
|
Hmmm...Dot for future perusal, as well as a couple random tips:
1: Use Google Docs, or some similar online Spreadsheet/Document editor/storage unit. Having the ability to track, say, all the baddie's HP, or rapidly generate a high-CR critter legibly is worth its weight in gold. Plus, if you NEED to print it, you don't need to lug around a printer, just connect to whatever is nearby.
2: Dish off tasks to the PC's. As a GM, especially at higher levels, you have lots of things to keep track of...give one player the Initiative Cards (or whatever means you use to track it) ans let them call out who's next. Likewise, Spell Round Tracking, Effect Tracking, and the like. Separate the processing needs, and you will work faster overall.
3: Don't be afraid to get nasty. In Game, that is. Higher level PC's have all these nice toys and tricks to play with. That's great and all, but what do you do when the bad guys break into your house in the middle of the night and steal your silverware / kidnap your daughter / leave hidden alien-ectomorph-egg-pods amongst your servante?
What do they do when a mob of their own citizens comes screaming for their blood, with torches & pitchforks in hand?
Who do they turn to when people start getting really sick, and the plague (helped along by Daemons, maybe) breaks out?
Don't pull punches, and don't be afraid to put the PC's in situations where "MOAR DAMAGE" is not the appropriate answer.
4: Finally, use the darn guidelines. If the AP is written for 4 PC's at 15 Point Buy, and you have 6 @ 25 Points + Super Custom Gear, that's gonna cause some conflicts. You either have to match the #'s the PC's can generate, or simply accept that physical challenges mean nothing anymore, and just run with that. If you keep on the "back foot" a bit, just a tad under the maximum power curve, your job becomes very much easier for it.
3: Don't be afraid to get nasty. In Game, that is. Higher level PC's have all these nice toys and tricks to play with.
+1
For low level adventures, I always make sure that I can thing of two or three ways that the thing can be solved.
For high level stuff, I just create a problem - I haven't worried about how they'll solve it in ages, but they've got more than enough resources to solve pretty much anything.
Just be sure your players don't catch or they don't care about fudging.
I'm fairly certain my players don't care. As it is, at this level you can build just about any stats legally. I use the chart in the back of the bestiary to get a good sense of what the levels should be at. As long as you run a fun game, why should your players complain?
I think the biggest difference is that starting around 10th level, the game changes. Low levels tend to be more about specific encounters with a general plot to tie them together and focus heavily on the party itself. Starting about 10th level, the focus really needs to shift to a broader picture with much less emphasis on individual encounters for the campaign to continue being successful. It is no longer just about the party and their immediate actions, it is about the party, their actions on a strategic, long term level, and how those action affect and are affected by the actions of others that the PCs will likely never even hear of. This is where the DM has to farm out at least some of the work to the PCs or get burnt out. Even if it is as simple as asking a the critical question "What do you want to do?" at key points in the story, the PCs have to take partial ownership of the campaign at the higher levels. They have to know their characters and how they fit into the world so that they can take some weight off of the DM's shoulders.
I don't have a problem with them going down in a single round. The reason for that is that I keep them in a nice little file on my computer. This allows me to pull up previous NPCs to use again as is with a different name (example: Captain of the guard, Korvosa, name xxx), or with a slight change (changing longsword fighting creature to a scimitar fighting one if that is what the scenario calls for).
Interesting. I do something similiar, and have actually used the GMG NPC gallery format for almost 10 years.
I use the computer when prepping the game, but never at the table. For me, papir is both faster and more creative.
I use generic names on the stats (Guard Captain, Red Great Wyrm, High Priest of Tyranny, and so on).
I keep the stats in an ever-growing word file, organized in two-page spreads with generic names (Diabolic Ruin I-V, Dwarven Ruin, Horde Outpost, and so on).
When I've used an encounter, I usually update it by adding/removing a monster for later, refining the tactics, and so on.