How about we don't gimp the Ninja, but bring the Rogue up to the level of the other classes?
How about we don't gimp the Ninja, but bring the Rogue up to the level of the other classes?
+1 billion.
On a sidenote: I don't know what people's problem with Rogue is... I really don't. Many out of combat uses, decent damage output(usually), okay hit dice, nice class features, tons of skills. Seriously, where's the problem with it? I honestly want to know.
It isn't a problem with the rogue, it's just that, in my opinion, the combat effectiveness level of ninja is where the rogue should be at. That's all.
So along those lines, the question should not be "how do we tone down the Ninja?" but "how do we raise the rogue up?".I've seen a dev or two say this won't happen. And that makes me a sad panda. If that's the case, then leave the ninja alone. It's fine as is.
double post.
changing sneak attack to work like sudden strike would be a horrible idea. it would effectively in my view make the class not worth playing. it would certainly loose any and alll ability to do damage at high level.
the suggested change to 4 sp removes any utility. the two changes together are bad but together would be abysmal.
I am dropping these into spoiler tags because there are a lot of them
1)reduce skill points from 8 to 4.
Reason ninja don't need to have so many skills especially in pf compared to other d20 editions now that acrobatics, stealth and perception are the equivalent of 2 or more previous skills.*
I disagree, having attempted to make ninjas with monks for a while now. Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Disguise, Perception, Sleight of Hand, Stealth are all skills that every ninja should have high, if not maxed. The rest are just nice to have as options. So that is at least 6 must haves.
2)Remove diplomacy, intimidate and sleight of hands from class skill list.
Reason of the 3 speech skills (diplomacy, intimidate and bluff) bluff is the only one that fits a typical ninja and should be class skill, sleight of hands should be considered class skill only for the hiding weapons purpose, other uses should be left to rogues ...
Perhaps you are unaware that diplomacy is used in place Gather Information now? I'd say that's definitely within the purview of a spy.
3)Replace the katana weapon proficiency with a rapier or a long sword(or an oriental weapon name with equivalent power)*
Reason ninjas should focus on doing damage with sneak attack, poison and other ninja tricks, not having for free a 1d10 one hand weapon. In common ninja culture they use a ninjato that looks pretty much like a medium sword, it's straight with a duble edge.
Ninja-tos are modern inventions. Having possession of a weapon like that pretty much lets everyone know what you are (same with the black pajamas, which are used in japanese puppet theater). There is some mention however of ninjas taking wakazashi blades and using them with katana sized handles and sheaths. This was done so that the blade can clear the scabbard faster on a quick draw. Having space for extra gear is an added perk.
For balance purposes I wouldn't mind them losing the katana proficiency, although they should probably have a ninja trick that gives it back to them, along with some other samurai proficiencies if they want to blend in.
4)sneak attack could be changed to not do extra damage from flanking (as it was in an other d20 edition)
reasons are both for balaning and flavour ninjas are traind in doing extra damage when the enemy is caought off guard but only rogues are traind in using the distraction given from an ally flanking the enemy to get extra damage, ninja are more solo types
I am sorry, but this is all sorts of wrong. If anything ninja constantly used partners against samurai who "thought" they were facing off against sole opponents. Not bound by bushido codes (or what was the beginning of bushido anyway) ninja fight dirty. What you may be referring to is just a product of movies where there is only 1 ninja protagonist. Certainly samurai movies that have bands of ninja in them show them working in teams.
5)Ki pool changes:
Acrobatic is certainly strong, not sure though that they need +20 to stealth, though. That is essentially the bonus you get from being invisible and there is already a way to do that.
Ki from charisma is most certainly an attempt to keep them from being hopelessly MAD. Its controversial, but if Paladins get their spells from charisma for that same reason, I don't think its that bad. If you really want wisdom Ki, multiclassing with monk does that for you, especially if you want an enlightened ninja. Also along these lines is the armor thing. If you really want wisdom AC and Wisdom Ki, multiclass with monk.
6)Flurry of stars ninja trick could be changed to 1 extra shuriken instead of 2. If it seems to much underpowerd(wich it dosen't in my advice) it could be added the second shuriken after a certain level(like 10) but for 2 ki points and taking a -4 to all attacks
Here you have a point. 2 extra shuriken attacks can be a vehicle for an extra amount of sneak attack damage among other things. It could be too strong, as it allows 1 extra attack when optimized for it, even over flurrying monks. Compound that with Pressure Points and it can be gross.
7)Fogotten trick this is straitghfoward the most unbalanig thing of the ninja class the simpliest way to go is to cancel it entirly* . If this ability is to be keept first of all it should not allow to select combat trick, after that it should be made more expensive here are some possibilities:
make it a master trick; make it cost all of your ki pool minus 1 (with a minimum of 2 points spent); make it cost 4 ki points; make it a master trick and augment the cost in ki terms in one ot the 2 ways desribed above (if you want to keep this trick i find this the better option)
While I could favor it being a master trick, one place it really shines is if you have multiclassed, with say, monk. You only get 1 ninja trick for the 1st 7 levels so it should be a good one. Forgotten trick then lets you pretend to have more ninja levels than you do. One thing they could do to really balance this is to just remove all the free uses in ki based tricks. then you would at a minimum pay 1 ki, and most often pay 2.
8)Remove rogue talent, the rogue talents that are most appropiate for ninjas are alredy in the list of the ninja tricks if you feel that some rogue talents are appropiate and are not in the list simply add them. If you want to keep this trick you should an equivalent rogue talent that lets you select a ninja trick the rogue suold be treated then as having a ki pool of 1+charisma or a fixed number as one third his level but exclusevily to activate the trick.
ki tricks are meant to be used with ki pool (which replaces evasion). Just giving this to the rogue too makes both classes less diverse. You could make a rogue talent that has ki pool as a prereq and then said rogue would need monk levels to use them, I suppose, but I think that you can't look at ki tricks in a vacuum. they cost a talent AND evasion.
9)Pressure points other than the dc 15 heal check each point of damage can be heald with any magical healing effetc
Another way to go about it would be for the ninja to have to trade 1d6 of sneak attack to get the bonus attribute damage. Its far more crazy to me that they get it ON TOP of their normal sneak attack.
10)Slow metabolism beeing this a cool stuff very ninja style and not to powerful this could be a standard ninja ability gained at a certain level instead of a trick that needs to be selected
meh, there really isn't any place to put it. Light steps is already outside of the replaced abilities and that kinda irks me a little. If someone wants it, they pick it up. Or spend a forgotten trick on it.
11)Vanishing trick should be a standard action.*
reason balancing and/or it could be replaced with the hide in plain sight ability
With duration in rounds equal to level, making this a standard action seems like a band-aid. I would rather keep it a swift action, and limit it to 1 round only. The ninja can then use it to get to cover/concealment and use stealth from that point on, which then makes having a decent stealth actually necessary.
12) Light steps should be selectable a ninja trick instead of a default abilty
Agreed. It is cool but situational and there is no analog in the rogue class.
14)Assasinate ...
Real simple fix IMHO. Keep it essentially the same the assassin's death attack but based on CHA. Add the line "can only be used during a surprise round". The ninja must then ambush the target to get it to work. This also does away with the once in 24 hours per target thing, which IMHO is a needless limitation if the above is true.
15)Invisible blade, as for vanishing trick cannot be a swift action, but you could add a separate ninja advaced trick that lets you have vanishing trick as a swift action aka invisibilty, but in no case the ninja can use grater invisibility as a swift action
That could be fair, I wouldn't add the extra trick though. 9 times out of 10, I will bet you a ninja will use this before starting combat. During combat losing a full attack of bonus damage seems fair enough. Combined with regular vanishing trick (rather than replacing it) might make for interesting tactical choices.
I am a little surprised that what I consider the most powerful ninja trick did not make your list. Shadow Clones is wickedly powerful. I hope that it gets reduced to 1 clone and more for the advanced version. At least then its the same miss chance as being invisible for a round.
How is Shadow Clones powerful? From what I can tell it's only slightly better than that 1rst level domain power for the Trickery domain(instead of just 1, you get 1d4 images)... Nevermind, I just looked up Mirror Image. That duration is way too high for that ability. It needs to be toned down. I suggest 1-2 rounds per level instead of 1 minute per. Then it's reasonable.
I definitely like the idea of just flat out dropping the freebie uses of Ki Talents for balancing the class out. They have a Ki Pool to pay for these talents for a reason.
I also agree on the Light Steps needing to just be a talent thing. Dear God does this thing not need to be a freebie. I'd say it should be talent & you must have an unspent Ki Point to be able to use it.
The extra sneak attack from the Flurry of Stars thing could be a bit much, the odds of the conditions lining up to get your Sneak Attack with each shuriken are fairly low, as you must get the target flat-footed & still be able to make a full-round attack. You can't do it during a sneak attack round or even with vanish since you become visible after the first attack. Also, keep in mind that that -2 penalty hurts with Mid BAB. In 3rd Ed D&D, Monk's Flurry of Blows was called Flurry of Misses for a reason.
yeah, flurry is mostly an issue with invisible blades, although that is at 10th level and up. However, with clever use of lighting, or even just having darkvision when your target does not, you can have situations where the ninja is hidden in darkness and operates like an invisible attacker. In which case the GM might rule they also get a +2 to hit the opponent, negating the -2 from flurrying.
right but as written right now it stacks with rapid shot.
It stacks with rapid shot AND two-weapon fighting, although to a certain extent, all those -2 penalties will make it a moot point.