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Has anyone statted up a Pirate-type using rogue (probably with swashbuckler) with a level dip (or two?) into Gunslinger, perhaps even Duelist at higher levels?
I see him starting combat by firing both pistols and then switching to cutlass (scimitar). The guns would have weapon cords so they cold be dropped as a free action. Using TWF, Improved Feint, and Greater Trip, would allow him to Feint as a move action, use trip to get the target prone, and a free sneak attack with attack bonuses. When the target tries to stand, sneak attack again. Rinse, repeat. Sounds like a dastardly guy. He might not do massive damage per round, but he'll be competent with sneak attack on most attacks. It is feat intensive, requiring use of the swashbuckler's ability to take combat trick twice, plus finesse rogue. Thoughts?
EDIT--I'm thinking of this largely from a PFS perspective where the Amateur Gunslinger feat is not permitted.
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Has anyone statted up a Pirate-type using rogue (probably with swashbuckler) with a level dip (or two?) into Gunslinger, perhaps even Duelist at higher levels?
I see him starting combat by firing both pistols and then switching to cutlass (scimitar). The guns would have weapon cords so they cold be dropped as a free action. Using TWF, Improved Feint, and Greater Trip, would allow him to Feint as a move action, use trip to get the target prone, and a free sneak attack with attack bonuses. When the target tries to stand, sneak attack again. Rinse, repeat. Sounds like a dastardly guy. He might not do massive damage per round, but he'll be competent with sneak attack on most attacks. It is feat intensive, requiring use of the swashbuckler's ability to take combat trick twice, plus finesse rogue. Thoughts?
EDIT--I'm thinking of this largely from a PFS perspective where the Amateur Gunslinger feat is not permitted.
The gunslinger isn't really built to do that.
I have several NPCs that I use as pirates, complete with flintlock firearms, but I use houseruled guns to make the guns be more of an option, and they're regular martial weapons.
The only required feats are PB Shot and Quickdraw. Skirmisher Rangers(no spells) make great pirates, arguably better than many rogues do, just because the ranger abilities lend themselves to it better. You can do it as a fighter, but I always get the feeling I'm wasting that armor proficiency that's worked into the class by wearing light armor.
We did an archetype for monk that worked great for the fancy duelist types. FoB with a rapier is made of win, but you need to remove all that ascetic monk feel that some of the other abilities give you.
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The gunslinger isn't really built to do that
Why not? Seeing that the gunslinger is the only class that specifically uses pistols, it would seem perfect to synergize with a rogue as a pirate. Of course, my concept is mostly something else, using only a level dip (or two) into Gunslinger, but still seems like it would work.
I have several NPCs that I use as pirates, complete with flintlock firearms, but I use houseruled guns to make the guns be more of an option, and they're regular martial weapons.
I would be using the character in PFS, so any house rules are out. And I don't want the guns to define the character, only add to his image. The shooting/cutlass combo feels more like an 17th-18th century pirate/privateer.
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The gunslinger is more cowboy than anything else. But if its for PFS it's your only real option for guns. Keep in mind that using guns is very ineffective with the rules we have now. The consensus seems to be that they're overpriced crossbows that take a feat to use, that break all the time, with horribly expensive ammo.
That said, If you're in PFS, you have no other gun options. I dont think there are any good multiclass gunslinger builds up right now though.
Doing a decent pirate type with the gunslinger is going to be rather difficult, and you're going to have a hard time keeping up with the party if you intend to use your guns alot - but I wish you luck.
~DH
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The gunslinger isn't really built to do thatWhy not? Seeing that the gunslinger is the only class that specifically uses pistols, it would seem perfect to synergize with a rogue as a pirate.
You should probably read the class, then. It's got horrible synergy with anything that doesn't specifically focus on guns (thus cowboy and thus my problem with Gunslinger in PFS). On top of that your entire concept will get ruined when you read that you can't draw a weapon while you have a gun hanging from a weapon cord (under the weapon cord description).
Relatedly, but not 100% on-topic, I am about to launch a scenario on my group involving a castle full of skeletal champion pirates based on fighter and rogue builds made with a pirate bent in mind. For pirate flavor, I relied only on choice of feats, skills and weapons, and they look great for the purpose (though we'll see if they work out fine against the party).
I bring it up because I am using homebrewed gun rules not too far different from Paizo's, where guns are Exotic. I tinkered with making guns martial, but it was apparent just looking at them, that the additional feat it freed up was going to result in PCs that looked more like pincushions than characters. It was just enough to make the more powerful among them too powerful.
I suppose if what is good for the goose being good for the gander, a PC who also can take a gun as a martial weapon might even the field out, but from an NPC/monster build perspective, doing so seems somehow skewed. I dunno. I could be wrong... let's just say my spider sense was tingling.
Anyway, back on topic, while time spent in the Iron Kingdoms makes me feel less like the Gunslinger is cowboy than it does for many others, it just doesn't feel piratey at all to me. Maybe I'm a victim of too many pirate movies, but guns seem almost secondary to a pirate, even when they are equipped with one sticking out of every pocket and belt. All the best stuff they do, they do with the cutlass or saber. That's just my fluff talking.
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I'm not really looking for everyone to tell me, "don't do that," based on some pre-conceived notion that it cannot keep up with the damage output of a fighter. Adding a level or two of gunslinger to a primarily rogue-build (which lags in damage output anyway), will not be a huge issue. I'm not looking for a way to make a PC that can go into combat guns-a-blazing and tear the monster a new one. More of a finesse swashbuckler that uses maneuvers to gain an advantage. The flintlock pistols of the gunslinger, Daring Act, and the grit ability (although I don't like the name in this instance) seem to mesh really well with this build. If you divorce your opinion of the cowboy image, which is not a must for this class, and focus on the "flair" options available to a pirate build, then maybe we can get somewhere. I did not have the books right in front of me, so I was just theorizing the build. Sorry if I erred with the weapon cord. What I am asking, if you did build such a character, keeping in mind PFS guidelines, how would you do it so it was effective, albeit not "optimized."
I'm not really looking for everyone to tell me, "don't do that," based on some pre-conceived notion that it cannot keep up with the damage output of a fighter. Adding a level or two of gunslinger to a primarily rogue-build (which lags in damage output anyway), will not be a huge issue. I'm not looking for a way to make a PC that can go into combat guns-a-blazing and tear the monster a new one. More of a finesse swashbuckler that uses maneuvers to gain an advantage. The flintlock pistols of the gunslinger, Daring Act, and the grit ability (although I don't like the name in this instance) seem to mesh really well with this build. If you divorce your opinion of the cowboy image, which is not a must for this class, and focus on the "flair" options available to a pirate build, then maybe we can get somewhere. I did not have the books right in front of me, so I was just theorizing the build. Sorry if I erred with the weapon cord. What I am asking, if you did build such a character, keeping in mind PFS guidelines, how would you do it so it was effective, albeit not "optimized."
The problem is, the gunslinger doesn't give you anything to help with "flair" or combat maneuvers that a number of other classes couldn't do better. If I were going to make an effective pirate type character I'd use a light crossbow and call it a cheap pistol, then go with whatever class I wanted to take. Guns are too expensive, in gold and feat costs, to afford for anyone who is going to fire a shot then drop it and charge into melee, which is what your pirate seems like he would do.
If you absolutely could not live without guns I would take a single level of gunslinger to get the free pistols, sell one to buy ammunition for the other and a decent melee weapon, and then take the rest of the levels in a completely different class and hope that the character is a fun enough concept to make up for being weaker than the other Pathfinder Society characters he will be traveling with.
Fluff is what you make of it. If you want a finesse swashbuckler that concentrates on maneuvers, find a class or build that accomplishes that, and use it for ideas to make your character. Then you can call yourself a pirate, your weapons a cutlass and pistol, and whatever maneuvers/feats you have something that sounds "piratey" without locking yourself into a class that doesn't support the substance that you are looking for.
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I'm not really looking for everyone to tell me, "don't do that," based on some pre-conceived notion that it cannot keep up with the damage output of a fighter. Adding a level or two of gunslinger to a primarily rogue-build (which lags in damage output anyway), will not be a huge issue.
I'm not saying anything based on a preconceived notion. I actually tried to make a pirate with a rapier and pistol. It's impossible to do without being a pure gimp. All I can tell you is that if you're dead-set on doing this, make sure to take the rogue talent that lets you stand up as a free action. At least that will look cool when combined with the grit power that drops you prone and provide an in-game benefit.
On another note: if you think the rogue lags behind in damage output then you're not building it right. Rogues can be right up there with fighters and barbarians for damage output.
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On another note: if you think the rogue lags behind in damage output then you're not building it right. Rogues can be right up there with fighters and barbarians for damage output.
It has been proven, time and time again, that their damage is circumstantial. When the conditions are right, yes, they can. No other class can keep up with a fighter in all cases over a long session of combat. Their skills do not run out. Besides, I do not define a character's effectiveness strictly by damage output. Providing combat maneuver support can be just as effective as crowd-control casters.
Again, I ask, if you were to build a pirate, assuming at least one level of gunslinger, and keeping in mind a lightly armored, swashbuckling persona, how would you assign ability scores (20 point buy) and what skills/feats/archetypes/etc, would you select? I will post my first attempt shortly.
Ok here’s a pirate style character I’d build that I believe meets your requirements. For the record, I’m not interested in being optimized but rather being fun to play and able to contribute to the party.
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 12
Gunslinger 1/Ranger 2/Rogue 3/ Ranger 14
Ranger (skirmisher variant)
- Two weapon combat style; two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting, two weapon rend
- Hunters bond companions
- Hunters tricks; skill sage, second chance strike vengeance strike, tangling attack, & either hobbling attack or upending strike
Rogue (thug variant)
- Taken for frightening and brutal beating
Skills – Max intimidate & perception, the rest to taste
Feats – Quick draw, improved critical, the rest to taste; if I’m following your concept I’d have to go with combat expertise, improved trip, greater trip, improved feint; I'd be tempted to add skill focus intimidate since it'd synergize well with the thug abilities.
Combat
Open with your guns, using grit for deadeye and quick clear as needed
Switch to a pair of scimitars with quick draw and use Brutal beating from the thug variant followed up by Intimidate to stack on penalties. Skill sage from skirmisher can be used against tougher opponents for the intimidate check (allows 2 take the best).
Continue to lay into your opponent flanking with a friend as much as possible for the bonus sneak attack damage and renew the shaken and sickened conditions as needed. Use feint and trip as desired.
Second chance strike vengeance strike, tangling attack are all good especially if you’re flanking and if you have to run hobbling strike could be useful as well.
Overall even though I didn't quite go with the classes you were thinking of or complete speck it out I think this would have the desired flavor and be a decent build. At least I wouldn’t mind giving it a try.
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Again, I ask, if you were to build a pirate, assuming at least one level of gunslinger, and keeping in mind a lightly armored, swashbuckling persona, how would you assign ability scores (20 point buy) and what skills/feats/archetypes/etc, would you select? I will post my first attempt shortly.
I didn't realize that this is what you were really asking, per se. What race?
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Stuff
Now, we're getting somewhere. Your build has some good points and would definitely be interesting to try. But seeing as how this character is for the Pathfinder Society with a level limit of 12, it wouldn't come to fruition with so many classes. It's bad enough that I used a three-class build. Your version is a bit more brutish than I was looking for. I prefer a more finesse build. Here is what I came up with. Take the gunslinger at level one to take advantage of the matial weapon proficiency and ranged attacks. Then rogue until he qualifies for Duelist. He's a bit MAD due to his skills, so something has to be sacrifices. Since his combat is all based on Dex, he can afford to drop Strength. Constructive feedback is appreciated.
Human Gunslinger-1/Rogue-7/Duelist-4
Starting ability scores...
Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 14
Boost Dex at level 4/8/12
Traits
-Fast Talker (Bluff+1)
-Reactionary (Initiative+2)
Rogue (swashbuckler variant)
-taken for the extra combat tricks(feats), and Daring has the right flavor. Finesse Rogue is a requirement to qualify for Dervish Dance
Duelist
-the defensive/initiative bonuses, plus the flavor of the class mesh well with this build
Skills
10 ranks in Acrobatics, Bluff, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Perception, Profession(sailor), Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Swim
5 ranks in Disable Device, Knowledge(geography), Knowledge(local), Stealth, Survival
Feats
Quick Draw, Improved/Greater Trip, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dance, Dodge, Mobility, Improved Feint, Two-Weapon Fighting
Combat
Round One...Fire guns. Use Deadeye and Dive for Cover if the target fires back. Drop the guns and quick draw the cutlass(scimitar)
Round Two...Feint(move action), Trip(standard), and take AoO from Greater Trip with sneak attack damage. Take another AoO when the target stands up from prone
Round three+...rinse, repeat
Equipment
Scimitar (+1, Keen, Wounding)
Pistolsx2 (+1, Seeking)
Chain Shirt (Mithral, +2, Slick)
Handy Haversack (a must due to his low strength)
Other minor items to improve AC, Dex, saves, etc
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Do you realize that even with your trip feats you have the equivalent trip probability as that of a 14 strength fighter with no specialization? By level three you'll never trip anyone again and you're wasting two feat slots to fail at it miserably.
On top of that you're wasting a feat for dervish dance to make a scimitar do what a rapier already does for free. You're also wasting a feat for two-weapon fighting to add a whole 4.5 average damage to an entire combat.
After you fail to trip your opponent your troubles still aren't over. At this point they'll get to try and trip you back because a scimitar isn't a trip weapon so you can't drop it after a failure. At this point you're actually HELPING the enemy beat you.
I'd honestly love to give you some constructive feedback to make your build work. I wanted a build similar to this for my PFS main (though less maneuver oriented and more damage oriented). The fact is, though, that there's just no way to make this work with the current rules for Gunslinger. Please just trust us on this.
While we're on the topic of trust, also trust me when I say that strength should NEVER be a dump stat for a melee character, even a finesse build. If you don't know why then spend more time reading the rules and optimization threads and less time arguing.
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While we're on the topic of trust, also trust me when I say that strength should NEVER be a dump stat for a melee character, even a finesse build. If you don't know why then spend more time reading the rules and optimization threads and less time arguing.
Whatever. You obviously don't get it. Sorry I wasted my time.
Whatever. You obviously don't get it. Sorry I wasted my time.
Nah everyone here gets it.
This is one of two things, either you have an idea and came here asking how to make it viable (that can't be realistically done) or you have an idea and want thematic feats and abilities for it whether it would actually allow him to survive an adventure or not (which is a matter of personal taste and we can't help you.)
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I came here because, honestly, I am having a hard time building this character. I realize it's not gonna be a world-beater, but continuously telling me to "abandon all hope yer who enter here" is not constructive. The decision has been made, the character will be played, and will (1) have at least one level of gunslinger, and (2) will be a swashbuckler (although what class/s that includes is still in question) rather than thuggish. Errol Flynn and Capt Jack Sparrow are the inspiration. What I am looking for is help building it. I think he needs to use maneuvers to overcome his lack of damage output, but I am open to other options.
I came here because, honestly, I am having a hard time building this character. I realize it's not gonna be a world-beater, but continuously telling me to "abandon all hope yer who enter here" is not constructive. The decision has been made, the character will be played, and will (1) have at least one level of gunslinger, and (2) will be a swashbuckler (although what class/s that includes is still in question) rather than thuggish. Errol Flynn and Capt Jack Sparrow are the inspiration. What I am looking for is help building it. I think he needs to use maneuvers to overcome his lack of damage output, but I am open to other options.
Unfortunately this doesn't work, there is a reason your stuck and there are 1001 ways to build this but none will survive long enough for you to want to play it.
You seem to think this board could magically find something you couldn't and then got mad when it couldn't.
use monk and focus on the speed to continuously run away while shooting. swashbucklers generally fight other swashbucklers so they only look amazing, but guys like capt jack sparrow wouldn't live long in a battle between soldiers.
On a sea campaign? sure, the lack of needing armor or casting spells on a rocking ship is a huge bonus, but other then that it wont work how you want it
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You seem to think this board could magically find something you couldn't and then got mad when it couldn't.
I was irritated that there was no constructive feedback, just people essentially telling me not to play it. And I'm not expecting magic, I just figured that there are more knowledgeable players out there that might have some insight into the best way to build it given a couple of parameters. I do not believe that any concept is un-buildable. It just might not be a superhero. So maybe I need to drop the scimitar, or maybe fighter is a better class for synergy. Those I can work with, but telling me the character vision is not doable is ridiculous.
I was irritated that there was no constructive feedback, just people essentially telling me not to play it. And I'm not expecting magic, I just figured that there are more knowledgeable players out there that might have some insight into the best way to build it given a couple of parameters. I do not believe that any concept is un-buildable. It just might not be a superhero. So maybe I need to drop the scimitar, or maybe fighter is a better class for synergy. Those I can work with, but telling me the character vision is not doable is ridiculous.
well if you happen to figure something viable out please post the build
You seem to think this board could magically find something you couldn't and then got mad when it couldn't.I was irritated that there was no constructive feedback, just people essentially telling me not to play it. And I'm not expecting magic, I just figured that there are more knowledgeable players out there that might have some insight into the best way to build it given a couple of parameters. I do not believe that any concept is un-buildable. It just might not be a superhero. So maybe I need to drop the scimitar, or maybe fighter is a better class for synergy. Those I can work with, but telling me the character vision is not doable is ridiculous.
Unfortunately you can't take gunslinger and fighter, otherwise that might help you get the feats and BAB needed to make using combat maneuvers possible. I wish I could think of some constructive, helpful feedback to help you put that character together using the current rules, but I can't think of any way to combine using guns, light armor/one-handed weapons, and maneuvers into any sort of package, let alone an effective one.
Maybe if you drop the gunslinger part you could play a free hand fighter/rogue combination and maybe sorta be able to do feint and disarm maneuvers like a swashbuckler would. I haven't put together any exact builds though so you might be too feat starved to manage it, and would probably need a pretty generous set of stats to pull it off. Still, flavor-wise that fits your light-armor cutlass/rapier wielder who can disarm and feint, although not as well as a straight fighter of his level could. You'd have to either give up on using guns find a way to afford a 1000gp pistol and 11gp per shot ammunition, or use a crossbow and call it a gun, because if you take any fighter levels you can't take gunslinger levels.
Anyways, that's my idea on a way to mostly fit the flavor you asked for. I make no promises that you'll be able to survive in combat with him, and you certainly won't have to worry about being a superman, but maybe someone better at this than me will tear apart my vague ideas and cobble something workable out of them.
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You seem to think this board could magically find something you couldn't and then got mad when it couldn't.I was irritated that there was no constructive feedback, just people essentially telling me not to play it. And I'm not expecting magic, I just figured that there are more knowledgeable players out there that might have some insight into the best way to build it given a couple of parameters. I do not believe that any concept is un-buildable. It just might not be a superhero. So maybe I need to drop the scimitar, or maybe fighter is a better class for synergy. Those I can work with, but telling me the character vision is not doable is ridiculous.
The more knowledgeable players have looked into it, and found the firearm rules severely wanting. Particularly if you want to make something besides a cowboy that's built almost all gunslinger.
There isn't a good build for what you're trying to do, we've been trying these things for weeks.
You can build the guy youre talking about, who pulls a gun and shoots then switches to something else, but you're going to run into alot of problems.
1. You're going to be far weaker than you should be for level.
2. You're going to be very far behind in wealth due to the huge cost of ammo (and the cost of the gun itself is crippling if you don't get it for free, or if you need to replace it). This will contribute to 1.
3. The current gun rules are about equivalent to a crossbow (simple weapon), but with a feat(or level) tax, and a ridiculous price tag, and ungodly expensive ammo.
As much as you think it's ridiculous for us to say "the character vision is not doable", we want it to be doable. My entire campaign is based on characters like what youre describing, and I've been following this stuff since it was announced. Unfortunately, "the character vision is not doable" without having a character who is horrible for their level, at least until/unless paizo shores up their gun rules.
If you try out a non-PFS game, you might want to try asking your DM about the gun stats I suggested HERE. Note that I made them martial weapons, and suggested the GM consider the possibility of making them simple. They're a bit more complicated to use than a crossbow, but way easier than a bow. You'll also get better damage with a bow once you have multiple attacks.
As for your frustration that we're all saying what you wan't can't be done in any usable way, you have my sympathy, as I want the exact same thing, and can't have it using official pathfinder rules. Luckily for me though, I'm not bound to follow PFS stuff, and can therefore make up rules for guns that I can actually use for something.
Oh. and finally, because gunslinger is a fighter archetype you can't multiclass into fighter.
Had a long post, lost it, here's the gist.
I wish I could point out a way to make the character you described using the current firearms rules, but I can't. If you are willing to give up firearms in favor of a light crossbow that you call a firearm, you might be able to get the flavor you are wanting from the character since you can take Fighter levels instead of Gunslinger.
Instead of Gunslinger, use the free hand fighter archetype and maybe multi-class to rogue for some theme appropriate skills and you can simulate a light to medium armor wearing fighter who is going to try disarming and feinting rather than pure damage. You won't be great. Heck, you might not even be good enough to survive a PFS adventure, I don't have any idea how difficult most of them are, but you'll have a chance to pull off the feint and trip combat maneuvers that you want to use I think, at least against some opponents.
I'm sure someone better than me can tear this idea apart and give you something actually useful, rather than just flavorful, but I don't think anyone is going to be able to incorporate the Gunslinger into a character who concentrates on combat maneuvers.
TwilightKnight--
If you're willing to alter some things slightly, I'd look at:
Human Gunslinger 1-3/Rogue #
Pick up Weapon Finesse and either Quick Draw or Point Blank Shot @ 1st. Your build, if I understand you correctly, doesn't need Rapid Reload, which means you can pick up cool Grit feats instead of "reload faster" ones. This means you have two shots per combat. When I played my GS in a PFS game, this was more than enough to go with my rapier, and I had a grand time.
Stats? Something like:
STR 12/14
DEX 18(16 +2)
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 12/14
CHA 11
You can adjust as needed. I wouldn't drop STR below 10, but you can drop CHA and even INT.
I would also suggest using a rapier instead of a scimitar, but that's up to you. You'd need a feat to weapfinn a cutlass, but what the hey.
Lastly, expect to go through ~50-100GP per PFS mod, depending on how many times you whip out your pistols. Reload between combats and you should have fun. And when you need to expand upon a particular aspect of your learned argument with the Local Aspis Consortium Member, don't forget a pistol to the forehead with a readied action can really sway them to see your side...:)
Oh, and of course, be prepared for the class to change based on the playtest (I'm looking forward to seeing the next version, actually).