Minis allow space to become meaningful. Minis add a level to the combats that is elusive without them. Terrain becomes visually 'real', distances are 'understandable', and solid tactics become much more important. Maybe that is the nature of the complaint though. How important *should* tactics be in a Role Playing Game?Depends on you and your game is my best answer.
Essentially this, in my opinion. Like I said earlier, it would be difficult for me to figure out the best possible thing to do when my options aren't presented in a visual medium. One thing that Monte Cook said in the article linked above was "often people have a safe place to five foot step all of the time... to avoid attacks of opportunity" or something very close to that. If that's the kind of game you want, go for it! Some people like the game to be more elementary like that where one five-foot step can always put you into the most optimal, safest position with no player error allowed. I imagine other players who don't use minis laugh at his statement because they have an ability to perfectly picture the combat in their mind and know exactly who and what the player above will be stepping into. I can't play without minis because my ability to keep track of everything that's going on and also plan out how my monsters should fight isn't as strong as most of the people who play without minis. As GM I know I'd have to draw it out anyways, and as a player I'd have to ask at least ten questions a round.
I also imagine my idea of tactics at the game table would change drastically if monsters weren't allowed to flounder around and die uselessly because their actions and movement are handwaved for the rule of cool. The game changes when it no longer has aspects of minutiae I enjoy such as "The orc can run into flank, but he would move one square more than one normal move because of a diagonal" or the entire team-defense five-foot step dance.
And again, as long as you are enjoying the game you are absolutely doing it RIGHT :DGNOME
Forsooth!
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I generally don't use minis. This is mostly for reasons of simple convenience as I play after work in the backroom of a local pub so weigh and volume ar at a premium. Thus, no minis or battlemats. I do print off the relevant maps to give people an idea of the tactical space, but then go wih intention and drama rather than accuracy.
However, if I'm Dming a Pathfindr Society adventure at a convention, I will use them, or Smal Worl token equivalents, anyway, as I'll have far fewer space concerns in my luggage
I see you edited your response to be more insulting...sigh. You should really relax and learn Your Way is not the only way to do things.Actually, I edited it to be less insulting.
But I have no control over what you'll choose to take offense to.
Hint: sarcasm is usualy insulting....
Come on, guys. You know how online forums are. They're like emails. You never can really judge intent 100%. I once emailed a lady at my job to let her know how much I appreciated all the effort she put into a report before it hit my desk, and she called me ten seconds later in tears, apologizing for I don't know what!
Minis iz good fer some.
Minis iz bad fer others.
All frenz now.
No, we don't see them. What we see is a projection on a screen of a bunch of shapes, colors, etc. in synch with music.
You do realize that the camera always lies, right?
And, while some (not necessarily good) action movies show loading guns, it's just an obligatory shot which rarely has anything to do with keeping track of how many bullets are in the gun.
An example of a good action movie which does -not- show loading guns is Bulletproof Monk.
I really highly recommend that you take an introduction to film class in college. You might find it interesting. You'll definitely find a lot of...
And all minis are a representation of what is going on...just like those 'bunch of shapes, colors, etc. projected on a screen.
Sure there is movie magic involved in camera angles...editing etc. But they still provide a visualaztion of what is going on...just because it is impossible to happen in RL does not mean it is not internaly consistent.
Also the scene where you see a guy reload a gun is obligatory because of keeping the suspension of disbelief as I said and has to totaly due with the fact the bullets are finite. But that has more to do with film theory than say using or not using mins in your RPG...
As for Bulletproof Monk I have not seen it as I tend to find the action in most MA movies to be boring...but I will give it a try on your reccmendation.
I imagine other players who don't use minis laugh at his statement because they have an ability to perfectly picture the combat in their mind and know exactly who and what the player above will be stepping into.I want to address this misunderstanding.
It's not about being able to keep a perfect picture of the battlefield in one's mind.
It's about being comfortable with the combat being a shared imaginary space in the sense that while different people may have different ideas of what's going on, everyone is willing to cooperate and resolve such confusions through give-and-take on the fly.
Okay. I was just positing that it was an entirely possible scenario for some groups to assign the GM or another player to keep track of the entirety of combat. The honor system as well as what you just presented is entirely also possible.
In fact, when I first played DnD, I didn't use minis. But being a visual, and most of my players too, the first time I introduced a battle grid and "coins representing hobgoblins" we feel in love with the simplicity of it.
Then came the minis. Each player actually buys a mini for his own character when he creates one. In the end, after many games, we have enough minis for NPCs and players alike. The only thing we still use coins for are numerous fodder. A handful of coins for a handful of kobolds or orcs do the trick just fine.
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I have played DND since 1974. I am primarily a historical gamer, but enjoy RPG's as well. I have always played with miniatures. I love collecting and painting them, despite the fact that I am not very good at painting them.
When I DM, I use my extensive collection of miniature buildings and terrain. It makes for a beautiful table. Carting it all around is a bit of a pain, but the effect is worth it IMHO. I have had as many as 15 players in a campaign that ran for over two years. Some of them moved away and came home to play. I still get calls about starting the campaign up again.
It is up to the DM. I find it easier to track combat and players in my groups have enjoyed painting and collecting figures. Some of my players have promoted up to historical wargaming (Now we are talking thousand of figures! LOL) I have upgraded rules throughout the history of the game, and have enjoyed each one. Gaming is a social hobby and what matters is a congenial group of players that do not take the rules too seriously.
The play is the thing.
Erosthenes
In the case of movies, on the other hand, you see a bunch of quickly moving shapes and colors and hear the rise and fall of music and it's up to you to make sense of it all.
You don't "play" movies, therefore, detailed spatial representations aren't needed. The only choice you get in a movie is along the lines of start, pause, rewind, fast forward, stop, eject.
Movies are passive. You watch them. You don't participate.
Gaming is the opposite.
Comparing the two really doesn't work.
As far as minis go, sometimes, we use them. Sometimes, we don't. Depends on the scene, depends on the players. If it's a group of 4-5 PCs against a couple of bad guys, we're likely to not pull out the maps and minis.
If there's going to be a big battle, we do.
In the case of movies, on the other hand, you see a bunch of quickly moving shapes and colors and hear the rise and fall of music and it's up to you to make sense of it all.You don't "play" movies, therefore, detailed spatial representations aren't needed. The only choice you get in a movie is along the lines of start, pause, rewind, fast forward, stop, eject.
Movies are passive. You watch them. You don't participate.
Gaming is the opposite.
Comparing the two really doesn't work.
As far as minis go, sometimes, we use them. Sometimes, we don't. Depends on the scene, depends on the players. If it's a group of 4-5 PCs against a couple of bad guys, we're likely to not pull out the maps and minis.
If there's going to be a big battle, we do.
You know how I -know- you're wrong?
Because I've played and GMd games in which detailed spatial representations aren't needed.
What the hell are you talking about? He's wrong in what? That movies aren't games?
You know how I -know- you're wrong?
Because I've played and GMd games in which detailed spatial representations aren't needed.
You know how I -know- you're illiterate? Because I didn't say they were required.
I said they're not needed in movies. I didn't say they're needed or not needed in games.
Oh, and here's another reason I -know- you're illiterate: I stated that we sometimes play without minis. If I had actually claimed that detailed spatial representations were required for play, how would that reconcile against my claim of playing combats out without them?
Jesus, read the freakin' post before you charge at another windmill.
You know how I -know- you're wrong?Because I've played and GMd games in which detailed spatial representations aren't needed.
That's as pointless an argument as someone saying " You know how I -know- you're wrong?Because I've played and GMd games in which detailed spatial representations are always needed".
It's clear some people like minis, some don't, some are ambivalent.
I've played with minis for over 30 years and would hate to play without them. Sure we could all use our imagination to follow the DM describing where everything is on the map and make our own tactical decisions. But we find it more enjoyable to use the minis as an aid in making our imaginative decisions. My group enjoys manoeuvring around the battlefield to use distance to our tactical advantage (though it does irk me when a player tries to cast a fireball so that it perfectly catches all the orcs and just misses the good guys- you can take the exact ranges/distances etc too far some times).
Plus as so many of the fundamentals of the game are based around knowing exactly how far you are from your opponent you are cutting out a fair chunk of the game if you use a system that does not rely on those measurements.
It's anal, IMHO, to get wrapped around the axle wrt whether imaginary character A is 5 or 7 hexes away or 45 or 90 degrees away from imaginary character B.Sometimes I think the game would be more fun if the people at the table took a high colonic or two before the game starts.
Can you do anything else or just insult people? This is pathetic.
Simmer down people.
Don't tell other people how to play. We ALL understand that, right?
Simmer down people.
Don't tell other people how to play. We ALL understand that, right?
Ooh...I wondered what was going on in this thread. Now I see.
Well, luckily, they're was another evil leader around to take care of things while I was napping. Evening, Mr. President. {Tips top hat.}
I removed a post and a reply to it. Don't make things personal please. Just flag it and move on.
I often run encounter with no minis. It really depends on the terrain. In a 5' corridor where the party runs into a bugbears it's just he lead PC vs the lead bugbear. No need to break out the minis there. With complex terrain I prefer to use minis.
Jesus, read the freakin' post before you charge at another windmill.
I don't want to weigh in on the argument but Nice literary reference.
Come on, guys. You know how online forums are. They're like emails. You never can really judge intent 100%. I once emailed a lady at my job to let her know how much I appreciated all the effort she put into a report before it hit my desk, and she called me ten seconds later in tears, apologizing for I don't know what!
It's not just online forums and e-mails. Even when using plain, old-fashioned speech, people can find some of the darnedest ways to interpret each other. And sometimes, people interpret other people's speech to mean something offensive. It happens.
I don't want to weigh in on the argument but Nice literary reference.
Jesus, read the freakin' post before you charge at another windmill.
+1.
(Although one could argue that part of Don Quixote's problem was that he read TOO much.)
Stuff
Although I use tokens sometimes (never minis), I prefer to use graph paper and imagination. It's faster. The players have to trust the DM though, with positioning, etc.
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The only issues I have run into is player rather than rule based. The 'optimizer' in our group of 4 players hates not using miniatures as the precision imparted by a tactical grid allows is character to function, well, optimally. The descriptive environment leaves him not able to 'count squares' and get 'the best angles'. In short he sees part of the RPG as a mini-tactical board-game. This has caused a bit of stress.
I personally think that the free flowing arena of the imagination suits my style of DMing far better the the semi-static battle-mat. I'm far happier with players describing intent rather than worrying about the details of tumbling routes etc.
Both ways work, I will go out on the limb (and perhaps have it cut off) by saying that perhaps those who invest a lot of time in building a mechanically sound character perhaps prefer the battle-mat. It makes sense they would - a reach/trip/whatever fighter has to know exactly where things are round to round else their abilities may end up not used often or as often.
S.