Our monk has base speed 50ft. An owlbear has base speed 30ft.
My player figured he could simply keep moving away from it, whilst slinging every other round and thus killing the beasty.
Is there really no way a melee combatant (pc/npc/monster) could catch up with a monk? Sounds a bit wrong, no?
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Monk: run 200 ft (+50ft head start)
Beast: run > 120 ft
Monk: move > 300 ft + attack w/ ranged
Beast: run > 240 ft
Monk: run > 500 ft
Beast: run > 360 ft
Monk: move > 550 ft + attack w/ranged
Beast: run > 480
yeah, un-aided melee isn't going to catch a monk anytime soon, sounds about right
If your Monk used his Sling, is he still capable of moving his full speed? I know he can still move 50' with his ranged attack, but the OwlBear can still keep charging.
It changes his rounds of attack if he wants to keep his distance but, he still could. Just, how long is that fight going to take? Lol, doable but kinda boring. And Bruno has a point, rough terrain would kill this for the monk.
An owlbear could be considered immune to the rough terrain if it was his home / hunting range.
Interesting scenario.
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
@Wallsingham, not sure what you mean, it's just a ranged attack right? Don't see why he can't just use a standard for that, and a move action for "move your speed"
@Bruno: Wide open plains, not something which is really difficult to chase in. Besides, with his skillpoints in jump/acrobatics, he will probably create more distance between him and the bear. I was thinking about something Fort-check-like? After calculating a bit, it would take him 48 minutes to slay the owlbear
@Shadow: Sucks, bigtime. Not to mention "deflect arrows" and AC ranging from 27 to 31 (33 with ki)...
After the monk ran away, and the owlbear couldn't catch it, even with an animal intelligence, the owlbear would go to ground, hide, or run away.
Don't forget that running can upyour speed to 4x...
If the monk hit'n'run he may make an attack and move 50' while the owlbear will move 120'... So it's a 75' range (-2) attack than a move action 50' to be safe, then 4 round running and re-attack etc...
And he will have to do some CON check 'cause you can run only a given amount of time :
You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
You can't run across difficult terrain or if you can't see where you're going.
So not that simple... ;)
@ Chris
@Raistus: Good suggestion, but not in this case. :)
Wide in the open, half a day's walk to the nearest river, not many trees around either.
@Loengrin: Awesome, I knew there was something about running that i forgot. The CON check would have been the big equalizer for the owlbear vs the monk. And most likely, it would have been monk fricassee.
I figured out he could keep moving away (see previous post) but didn't know how long. Thanks!
If the monk wants to stay out of the bugbear's range, he can, and there is nothing the bugbear can really do about it unless the bugbear plans on chasing the monk for over half a mile. If he also wants to do damage to the bugbear with his sling, he will need to use terrain to his advantage; things like using speed to get around difficult terrain the bugbear would have to go through in order to get to the monk, and therefore not be able to charge or run, or similar tactics are perfectly viable assuming you have the available terrain to assist you. This is where have a caster with battle field control spells prepared comes in really handy.
As for triggering further encouuters, there are two problems with your thoughts. One is that you assume the bugbear is going to keep following after a couple minutes of this gam; this is possible but not guaranteed. Second, you assume that all triggered encounters must be hostile to the monk; a druid or ranger would be just as likely to take the monk's side or simply watch as attack the monk, and animals would be even more likely to choose any one of the three above options completely at random.
All in all, its a fair tactic that can be used quite effectively in the right terrain. If the terrain is there, and the monk can figure out how to use it, let him have his moment of glory. There will be other scenarios where the monk is as handicapped as the bugbear is in the above scenario.
You are right Sunshadow21, if the monk only wanted to flee he could have easily escaped... ;)
You are right Sunshadow21, if the monk only wanted to flee he could have easily escaped... ;)
The monk can still take advantage of his superior speed with the tactics described with the sling, aside from terrain, he could mix various alchemical items into the mix of bullet fire if his sling can fire them. Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, Alchemist's Fire, and Acid Flask are potentially useful in that scenario in dealing extra damage or slowing the beast down. That is not to say that the monk has an instant win button, just that he does a speed advantage that, if used to the fullest, can be devastating to his opponent.
You are right Sunshadow21, if the monk only wanted to flee he could have easily escaped... ;)The monk can still take advantage of his superior speed with the tactics described with the sling, aside from terrain, he could mix various alchemical items into the mix of bullet fire if his sling can fire them. Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, Alchemist's Fire, and Acid Flask are potentially useful in that scenario in dealing extra damage or slowing the beast down. That is not to say that the monk has an instant win button, just that he does a speed advantage that, if used to the fullest, can be devastating to his opponent.
Agreed too, intelligent play should always be rewarded... Unfortunately relying solely on the speed is not the best thing he can do... And this is the only thing the OP's player has done it seems ;)
Agreed too, intelligent play should always be rewarded... Unfortunately relying solely on the speed is not the best thing he can do... And this is the only thing the OP's player has done it seems ;)You are right Sunshadow21, if the monk only wanted to flee he could have easily escaped... ;)The monk can still take advantage of his superior speed with the tactics described with the sling, aside from terrain, he could mix various alchemical items into the mix of bullet fire if his sling can fire them. Tanglefoot bags, Thunderstones, Alchemist's Fire, and Acid Flask are potentially useful in that scenario in dealing extra damage or slowing the beast down. That is not to say that the monk has an instant win button, just that he does a speed advantage that, if used to the fullest, can be devastating to his opponent.
Based on what has been presented, that is true, and it would not be a very good tactic, I will grant you that.
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What's the owlbear doing in the middle of an open field? Isn't it a forest creature?
Also, if it's permanently enraged and doing stupid things (like trying to chase down a monk who is obviously going to kill it with very simple tactics) then I'd have no compunction as a DM of slightly lowering the CR/XP award for it after it was dead.
What's the owlbear doing in the middle of an open field? Isn't it a forest creature?
not the one he is talking about
Unless I am misreading Tactical movement running, isn't it only allowed as a full round action? Meaning no additional standard action?
I am curious if I have misread it. Have to go to work now though. :(
Greg
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Going to guess we’re in purely sanitary theoretical land. The monk is running directly in a straight line away from the owlbear, who is pursuing directly towards the monk on even terrain. Every two rounds, the monk is using a full-round run action, followed by a move action and an attack: The owlbear is running every round.
This means that every two rounds the monk is moving 250 ft., and the owlbear is moving 240 feet. In sanitary theoretical land, then you are correct. The monk can “kite” the owlbear, and there is nothing the owlbear can do about it.
Outside of theoryland, though, we encounter things like having to turn corners (thus shortening the distance, allowing the owlbear to close the gap), terrain difficulties (thus perhaps limiting the ability to run or to run in a straight line (and again allowing the owlbear to catch up)), and the owlbear giving up chase (even a very very angry owlbear gets tired after running every single round and stops eventually).
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This means that every two rounds the monk is moving 250 ft., and the owlbear is moving 240 feet. In sanitary theoretical land, then you are correct. The monk can “kite” the owlbear, and there is nothing the owlbear can do about it.
Again theoretically, if the Monk has a 16 CON it seems he can get off 5 attacks before he needs to start making stamina checks. (I'm assuming that making a standard move and sling attack doesn't count as stopping to rest between sprints) He'll have to make 2 before the Owlbear needs to start making stamina checks due to running. If he fails either of those checks, the bear will catch him.
is the monk in this example a halfling wiht the apg replacment racial trait
Otherwise this tactic falls flat.
A sling is little more than a leather cup attached to a pair of strings.
Description: Your Strength modifier applies to damage rolls when you use a sling, just as it does for thrown weapons. You can fire, but not load, a sling with one hand.
Action: Loading a sling is a move action that requires two hands and provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can hurl ordinary stones with a sling, but stones are not as dense or as round as bullets. Thus, such an attack deals damage as if the weapon were designed for a creature one size category smaller than you and you take a –1 penalty on attack rolls.
Thats a move each round to load and a standard to shoot. Or one round move 50 second move action to reload the owlbear moves 120 gaining 70 on the monk. next round shoot and move 50 the owlbear moves 120 gaining another 70 on monk so by 4th round of your example owlbear has closed on him if not before.
Same with a crossbow without rapid reload. It buys him a few rounds to be sure but if he keeps trying to reload the owlbear will catch him.
Now maybe with javelins/spears this could work as long as his BAB is +1 he could draw one while moving then throw, run the following round, draw+move then throw the round after.
Really? It's a move action to load a sling, and a standard to "shoot" it?
Really? It's a move action to load a sling, and a standard to "shoot" it?
An attack action is a standard action. So yes thats how it works. there is a reason folks say its the worst ranged weapon in the game.
The tactic would still work (in theory) by running longer before stopping to reload and shoot.
The stamina checks would be the killer though :)
Really? It's a move action to load a sling, and a standard to "shoot" it?An attack action is a standard action. So yes thats how it works. there is a reason folks say its the worst ranged weapon in the game.
why is it not possible to re-load a sling while running? this mechanic makes no logical sense. Is this a design oversight?
why is it not possible to re-load a sling while running? this mechanic makes no logical sense. Is this a design oversight?Really? It's a move action to load a sling, and a standard to "shoot" it?An attack action is a standard action. So yes thats how it works. there is a reason folks say its the worst ranged weapon in the game.
If so its been there since 3.0 came out, so I am going to guess no it is as intended.
why is it not possible to re-load a sling while running? this mechanic makes no logical sense. Is this a design oversight?
Why is it not possible to reload a crossbow while running as well? Because running is a full round action, and reloading some missile weapons takes a move action (or more, in the case of heavy crossbows). Is this a design oversight? One would hope not as it's fairly explicitly stated, so one should assume the designers understood its implications. Is it unrealistic? I guess that's a matter of opinion. Mine is "no". Not sure where logic enters into it.
Zo
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why is it not possible to re-load a sling while running? this mechanic makes no logical sense. Is this a design oversight?Why is it not possible to reload a crossbow while running as well? Because running is a full round action, and reloading some missile weapons takes a move action (or more, in the case of heavy crossbows). Is this a design oversight? One would hope not as it's fairly explicitly stated, so one should assume the designers understood its implications. Is it unrealistic? I guess that's a matter of opinion. Mine is "no". Not sure where logic enters into it.
Zo
Having fired real crossbows before, both ligh and heavy, I can tell you that it's near impossible to load on one the run. A hand crossbow is a different story, and same with a sling. My house rule for both is that as part of a move action you can load a hand crossbow or sling. So take your 30 foot move while reloading and fire away. I also rule that Rapid Reload can apply to the sling as well.
For an abstract system what do you expect though?
Favorite story in a game.
Not my game unfortunately, but I had the story from someone I trust.
Another player was playing a Paladin, and playing him Lawful Stupid as usual. Bossing everyone else at the table around, etc. Friend was playing a CN elf archer (Fighter) in light armor with boots of springing and striding. The Paladin was in full plate.
During an especially difficult RP session, the elf told the paladin if he didn't shut up, he was going to kick the paladin's posterior up between his ears. The paladin player laughed and said do it, and I'll crush you. (or something to that effect).
You can guess where this is going. Elf stands up, double moves and then pincushions the paladin. Paladin runs after elf, elf runs away, fires. Paladin runs after, elf moves & fires. He was doing standard one round, full attack, standard, full attack, due to the differences in speed. Paladin ran through all his lay on hands, all his cures, and then keeled over and died.
Paladin's player did not come to game again afterwards. During the combat, he howled at the GM that it wasn't fair that his Paladin couldn't run as fast as the elf in leather armor. :)
why is it not possible to re-load a sling while running? this mechanic makes no logical sense. Is this a design oversight?Why is it not possible to reload a crossbow while running as well? Because running is a full round action, and reloading some missile weapons takes a move action (or more, in the case of heavy crossbows). Is this a design oversight? One would hope not as it's fairly explicitly stated, so one should assume the designers understood its implications. Is it unrealistic? I guess that's a matter of opinion. Mine is "no". Not sure where logic enters into it.
Zo
Having fired real crossbows before, both ligh and heavy, I can tell you that it's near impossible to load on one the run. A hand crossbow is a different story, and same with a sling. My house rule for both is that as part of a move action you can load a hand crossbow or sling. So take your 30 foot move while reloading and fire away. I also rule that Rapid Reload can apply to the sling as well.
For an abstract system what do you expect though?
True, though to split hairs the poster I was quoting and I were both referring to running, not taking a single move action. Incidentally, I allow my players to draw any item attached to their belt as part of a move, in the same fashion they might draw a weapon as part of a move action. I don't think I could see my way to allowing it as part of a run, though.
Zo
Why the heck isn't the owlbear running? If a monk try this in my games, he's going to get mauled horribly.
Monk moves 50 feet away and slings. Owlbear takes the run action to get adjacent to the monk. Monk moves and readies his sling, but leaving the owlbear's threatened space provokes. Ownlbear strikes monk. Grapples monk.
One of them dies.
Why the heck isn't the owlbear running? If a monk try this in my games, he's going to get mauled horribly.
Monk moves 50 feet away and slings. Owlbear takes the run action to get adjacent to the monk. Monk moves and readies his sling, but leaving the owlbear's threatened space provokes. Ownlbear strikes monk. Grapples monk.
One of them dies.
Assuming they start 30 feet apart.
Round 1 : Monk runs (50x4) = 200 ft (now 230ft apart)
Round 1 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 110ft apart)
Round 2 : Monk runs (50x4) = 200 ft (now 310ft apart)
Round 2 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 190ft apart)
Round 3 : Monk holds.
Round 3 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 70ft apart)
Round 3 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack.
Round 4 : Monk runs (50x4) = 200 ft (now 270ft apart)
Round 4 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 150ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk holds
Round 5 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 30 ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack
Lather, rinse repeat.
If the owlbear runs, the monk uses his superior speed and initiative to close and attack from just outside owlbear's charge range.
Superior speed is a very very very powerful tactic.
The same sort of thing works with a mounted combatant vs owlbear, except faster, since the horse can move and the rider shoot simultaneously.
I think this complaint came up with the horse archer in 4E as well. This is why melee only characters don't work.
It really shouldn't be a complaint. It's common sense. Cavalry units were always smaller than foot units, but always contributed much more to any battle than their numbers indicated. Whether it was fully armored knights on panfreys or rapid response cavalry carving out a few units on the flanks.
No melee type should ever be without a backup ranged weapon (see the monk above!).
Monk flurries with shuriken
Not at 70 feet he doesn't. Max range of shuriken is 50 feet.
Why the heck isn't the owlbear running? If a monk try this in my games, he's going to get mauled horribly.
Monk moves 50 feet away and slings. Owlbear takes the run action to get adjacent to the monk. Monk moves and readies his sling, but leaving the owlbear's threatened space provokes. Ownlbear strikes monk. Grapples monk.
One of them dies.
Look at my original post and MDT's for more info. Without the fortitude checks, the monk would win 48 minutes later (assuming he hits every 4 rounds with max damage)
Round 3 : Monk holds.
Round 3 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 70ft apart)
Round 3 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack.
Round 4 : Monk runs (50x4) = 200 ft (now 270ft apart)
Round 4 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 150ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk holds
Round 5 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 30 ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack
Delay doesn't work like that. In rounds subsequent to round 3 the monk would act after the owlbear. I assume that's what you meant by hold, as the monk could not ready an action and flurry in the same round.
Zo
Round 3 : Monk holds.
Round 3 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 70ft apart)
Round 3 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack.
Round 4 : Monk runs (50x4) = 200 ft (now 270ft apart)
Round 4 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 150ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk holds
Round 5 : Owlbear runs (30x4) = 120 ft (now 30 ft apart)
Round 5 : Monk flurries with shuriken or uses sling in full attack
Delay doesn't work like that. In rounds subsequent to round 3 the monk would act after the owlbear. I assume that's what you meant by hold, as the monk could not ready an action and flurry in the same round.
Zo
It really doesn't matter, after that point, he wants to go after the owlbear. So the owlbear closes and then he attacks. If he has to drop to standards instead of full attacks, it's ok. He can do one every other round or so.
Monk flurries with shurikenNot at 70 feet he doesn't. Max range of shuriken is 50 feet.
It works when it's within 30 feet, and it the OP was using a sling anyway. If you prefer, make it a zen archer monk. :)
It really doesn't matter, after that point, he wants to go after the owlbear. So the owlbear closes and then he attacks. If he has to drop to standards instead of full attacks, it's ok. He can do one every other round or so.Delay doesn't work like that. In rounds subsequent to round 3 the monk would act after the owlbear. I assume that's what you meant by hold, as the monk could not ready an action and flurry in the same round.
Zo
Noted. I wasn't arguing against the general theme, just the specific use of delay. Anyway, I'm not sure what the fuss is about. Monks are crapped on by so many posters on this and other boards, is it that much of an issue that a 6th level monk (required for 50' base speed) can take out a CR 4 owlbear? If someone's interested in playing a nickle-and-dime character like that, let them. The 2nd or 3rd time an APL-2 combat takes 3 hours to resolve they'll get tired of it. :)
Zo
that still assumes the owl bear keeps chasing after him, once the monk is 310 to 270 feet from him, he might not run after him, and go in a different direction now they are 340 to 300 feet apart, whats the monk going to do? sling at him for max range? or run up and lose on him, once the monk starts chasing the owl bear, depending on how those rounds work themselves out if he gets too close and the owl bear turns around and runs at him poof surprise the owl bear is on top of him, like another poster said, moving out of threatened area causes AoO.
A animal ins't going to act stupid and run around getting hit with rocks, they hurt, it will run away. Corner it and it will fight.
that still assumes the owl bear keeps chasing after him, once the monk is 310 to 270 feet from him, he might not run after him, and go in a different direction now they are 340 to 300 feet apart, whats the monk going to do? sling at him for max range? or run up and lose on him, once the monk starts chasing the owl bear, depending on how those rounds work themselves out if he gets too close and the owl bear turns around and runs at him poof surprise the owl bear is on top of him, like another poster said, moving out of threatened area causes AoO.
A animal ins't going to act stupid and run around getting hit with rocks, they hurt, it will run away. Corner it and it will fight.
Agreed. Was just answering Dorks statement that the monk couldn't do it if the owlbear was running after him.
I usually play my NPCs smarter than that. There are, however, always exceptions (if the owlbear had a particularly low wisdom, or was enraged or mind controlled). But that's neither here nor there. My point was just to respond to Dork's post, and show that if the owlbear was stupid enough to chase the monk, the monk could plink away with immunity. The OP stated this occured on an open plain with no forest or trees for several miles, open flat grassland, so it really becomes a situation where if the monk wants to play cat and mouse with the owlbear, it can. Moving into position to hit it and fall back.
that still assumes the owl bear keeps chasing after him, once the monk is 310 to 270 feet from him, he might not run after him, and go in a different direction now they are 340 to 300 feet apart, whats the monk going to do? sling at him for max range? or run up and lose on him, once the monk starts chasing the owl bear, depending on how those rounds work themselves out if he gets too close and the owl bear turns around and runs at him poof surprise the owl bear is on top of him, like another poster said, moving out of threatened area causes AoO.
A animal ins't going to act stupid and run around getting hit with rocks, they hurt, it will run away. Corner it and it will fight.
Agreed. Was just answering Dorks statement that the monk couldn't do it if the owlbear was running after him.
I usually play my NPCs smarter than that. There are, however, always exceptions (if the owlbear had a particularly low wisdom, or was enraged or mind controlled). But that's neither here nor there. My point was just to respond to Dork's post, and show that if the owlbear was stupid enough to chase the monk, the monk could plink away with immunity. The OP stated this occured on an open plain with no forest or trees for several miles, open flat grassland, so it really becomes a situation where if the monk wants to play cat and mouse with the owlbear, it can. Moving into position to hit it and fall back.
why is the owl bear out if its habitat? Animals dont do that specifically because they are more vulnerable in those conditions? its like a chihuahua hanging out in the middle of a field with a high concentration of eagles about.
why is the owl bear out if its habitat? Animals dont do that specifically because they are more vulnerable in those conditions?
In the specific module the OP was referring to, the Owlbear is enraged beyond reason due to a curse.
why is the owl bear out if its habitat? Animals dont do that specifically because they are more vulnerable in those conditions? its like a chihuahua hanging out in the middle of a field with a high concentration of eagles about.
Now that, I have no knowledge of. It was apparently something in an AP. So I can't answer to that. However, if the owlbear did find itself on an open plain, he's toast to anyone faster than him.
Now that, I have no knowledge of. It was apparently something in an AP. So I can't answer to that. However, if the owlbear did find itself on an open plain, he's toast to anyone faster than him.
why is the owl bear out if its habitat? Animals dont do that specifically because they are more vulnerable in those conditions? its like a chihuahua hanging out in the middle of a field with a high concentration of eagles about.
yea... Ive played kingmaker which has two owlbears i remember in them, neither was in an open plain.
One was in a fort and the other was rampaging in a city.
Thanks for all the feedback, but i would like to summarize here.
A) A monk could indeed continue to outrun an owlbear by switching full-round runs with move+shoot.
Monk (per 2 rounds) = 4*50ft + 50ft= 250ft
Owlbear (per 2 rounds) = 30*4+30*4= 240ft
aka mission impossible
B) He needs to reload with a move action, so it's not going to go fast
C) He needs to stay at safe distance > penalties on the sling
D) Eventually, after X full-round runs both of them are going to have to make Fort Checks. If the monk loses, he is screwed. If the bear loses, he is screwed.
Say MONK CON = 14 > 28 rounds of running before checking. :)
Say OWLB CON = 20 > 20 rounds of running before checking. :(
When the monk needs to start checking against DC10, the owlbear should already be at DC18.. Autch
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As said, I made the Owlbear go back to his lair, even though he was curse-raging, because he "heard/smelled" the invisible characters.
Maybe some will not agree, but I hate anti-climactic encounters...
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yea... Ive played kingmaker which has two owlbears i remember in them, neither was in an open plain.One was in a fort and the other was rampaging in a city.
They also appear on the wandering monster table for the first couple APs (which meant that my group has fought three owlbears so far). Though its kinda odd that the enraged one was on the plains. That one should normally be in its lair (or the city I guess if you DM is super nice and lets you stop its rampage there).
Gota agree it seems like a good time to break the chase rules out of the GMG though. Would make the encounter a lot more fun for everyone.