I'm committed to playing a sorcerer for a game. I've read that ranged builds do a lot of damage, and if I follow Treantmonk's archer bard build, I think I could make a comparable archer sorcerer with 1 level of fighter and 10 levels of Eldritch Knight, and I suspect, more spellcasting (the BAB, hit die, and toughness for one of the fighter bonus feats from the fighter & EK levels would offset the BAB & HP advantage that the bard has over the sorcerer).
But I've never played a sorcerer (or an archer), so I'm not sure if I should do the archer build above or go straight sorcerer with a blaster role.
The rest of the party includes a rogue (going to Arcane Trickster, so I expect he may do battlefield control), a cleric, a fighter, and a barbarian.
Things that can't change:
Human
Sorcerer at lvl 1
Fey bloodline
Feats toughness and dodge at lvl 1 (might be able to trade out dodge for arcane strike)
Sources:
Core
APG
Thanks for any advice,
jamie
If it were me, I'd just be a sorcerer. You've got enough fighter types to handle combat. If you really want to be an archer too, though, you have a good plan.
The trickster won't have a lot of spells, so you can coordinate who's casting what to cover your bases.
Interesting idea just keep in mind you'll be falling pretty heavily behind in spells with two levels of spells missing. Not to mention the bloodline you picked favors people with very very high charisma since you'll want to get the most out of your DC's. So damagewise you'll suffer.
If you're willing to do some convincing, you might want to look into Super Genius Games' Archer Archetypes (specifically the Spellbow). Dunno how will that advice will fly though, considering how you would need to drop your fey heritage for it.
Are you going to be using the crossbow? Javelins? Or spending a feat on longbow?
If your sorcerer repetoire is going to have lots of ranged touch spells, then picking up feats like Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot will be doubly useful. But focusing on ranged spells and ranged weapons might leave you kind of vulnerable to a certain lack of versatility. I played a 3.5 warlock like that. It wasn't a very complex build, but what it lacked in flash it made up for in staying power and straight forwardness and consistency.
EDIT:
I also played an elven druid archer, but elves get bows for free, so it didn't cost much in feats. I only took PBS and Rapid Shot (it also works well with produce flame!) and then branched out into being super versatile with Natural Spell, Craft Wand, Empower Spell, and Improved Counterspell (burning through flamestrikes to counter rakashasa-cast fireballs actually saves a lot of healing!).
You're the only true arcane caster in a party with a fighter and a barbarian, and you're basing your character on being an archer? *phew* Tall order.
Problems that restrict you from being a passable archer:
- Bad BAB
- Wrong prime stat (you need at LEAST 18 cha to be a passable caster and do anything that requires a save, and focus on raising cha alone)
- Needs irrelevant stats very high
- Few feats, that should go towards making you a better caster.
- Not even proficient with a bow. Need to waste a feat, or worse, waste a level.
- Sorcerers should never take prestige classes, as their class abilities are designed to off-set their inferiority to wizards.
Grabbing Point Blank and Precise Shot MIGHT be worth it if you are grabbing some ranged/reached touch attack spells.
Otherwise, this seems like a counterproductive effort, especially considering there is a barbarian, fighter and a rogue already in party.
It's the rogue going into arcane trickster who should be covering the blaster role to get the most out of Sneak Attack (even acid splash and ray of frost can be useful when adding +2d6 to +7d6) and Surprise Spells. The earliest entry to arcane trickster would be rogue (recommend the sniper archetype for Deadly Range) 3/wizard 3. Take the Magical Knack (Wizard) trait to keep caster level from lagging as much and the Craft Wand feat ASAP to have several wands of ranged touch damage spells (acid splash, ray of frost, acid arrow, scorching ray, etc.). The Reach Spell metamagic feat can also be useful for spells like shocking grasp and vampiric touch.
For a sorcerer archer, I'd recommend taking the battlefield control role (especially with the Fey bloodline) and using the bow/crossbow for ranged support. Earliest entry to eldritch knight would be sorcerer 6/fighter 1 or sorcerer 6/ranger 1. The bonus fighter feat is nice, but you may find it more useful to take a level of the guide archetype ranger for Ranger's Focus and the ability to use wands of ranger spells (like aspect of the falcon, barkskin, cure light wounds, etc.) without a Use Magical Device check. Again, take the Magical Knack (Sorcerer) trait to keep your caster level up. Your best starting spells are probably dancing lights (more versatile than light), daze, mage armor (personal protection), and sleep; both daze and sleep are Enchantment (compulsion) spells and gain the +2 DC increase from the Fey Bloodline Arcana. One possible advancement strategy is to take the ranger level as your second character level (for proficiency in bows) and resume advancement as a sorcerer with your third character level (taking the Expanded Arcana feat to gain gravity bow).
@Kamelguru: It may not be the "optimal" choice, but your response is not helpful.
If you're more interested in playing an archer than a spellcaster, maybe aim for the arcane archer PrC? It has less spell casting progression than the eldritch knight, but possibly better class features.
You could also take a level of paladin for your 1 level dip in a martial class. That way, you can add your Charisma bonus to your attack rolls when you smite evil. That should help counter your relatively low BAB if you go Paladin 1/Sorcerer 19 (BAB +10, CL 19), or Paladin 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight 10 (BAB+15, CL 18) or Arcane Archer 10 (BAB +15, CL 16).
(You don't have to be an elf to be an arcane archer anymore!)
But long term builds may not be as important if you only play for a few levels. Do whatever seems the most fun, which isn't ALWAYS what's most powerful (but often IS).
I have a druid archer in 3.5 who works pretty well. She has point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot. She has decent dexterity plus the gloves of dexterity (+2) so she manages to get decent attack rolls even when using rapid shot. She also frequently buffs her dex to gain attack and AC bonuses. This is a pretty effective build.
But druids have higher BAB than sorcerers do. Still there's no reason you can't have decent dex in a sorcerer build and get the same feats and some magic dex bonuses as well. I think the druid would be slightly better as a straight archer than a sorcerer, but sorcerers have more and better ranged touch attack spells. Plus sorcerers have accuracy boosting spells as well that druids lack. I think it could work, it won't be the most optimized character ever, but it would be a sorcerer who didn't rely entirely on spells to do damage, which can be very useful.
For example, in our last big battle, my druid only cast a single spell, and that was a heal spell on an NPC who was being tortured by the bad guys. Otherwise she did full round attacks with her bow and did enough damage to contribute to the party. Next time we are in town with a magic shop she is getting "shock" added to her bow so that she does an extra d6 with each arrow. Then she'll be even better.
Get some scrolls or wands with "cat's grace" and get some gloves of dexterity and just stick with straight sorcerer and you should be fine.
Dragonchess: Just telling him what will be problems for realizing his build. And people ignoring their role's main function (which the party in this case would be lacking) in order to do what other people already do is a bit of a peeve on my part.
And also, in order to do archery well, you should have 18+ dex, if for no other reason than to qualify for all the feats you need. Point Blank Shot is a base requirement for everything. Precise Shot is needed to offset the horrible -4, which is bad for a full-bab class. Rapid Shot and Deadly Aim to do any damage. Then you likely would want Manyshot. You'll likely never qualify for improved precise shot, which in my opinion is one of the best archery feats.
He is far better off going full on sorcerer, focusing on debuffs and buffs, taking some blasting for recreation. He will make the party jump for joy as their enemies become easier to hit, they become more powerful, and he can do all kinds of funny stuff besides.
My suggested build:
Sorc1-20
Str 7 or 8
Dex 12
Con 12+
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha At least 18, preferably 20
Favored Class: HP from lv1-3, added spells known after that.
Feats:
1: Toughness and Improved Initiative
3: Great Fortitude (compensate your low fortitude save)
5: Combat Casting (You'll not get away from having to roll concentration at some point. You'll want to succeed then)
7: Extend Spell (Watch your Mage Armor work all day long) + Dodge (bonus)
9: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
11: Augment Summoning (At lv10+, the list is getting interesting, the Summon Monster VI list is especially good)
13: Spell Penetration + Quicken Spell (bonus)
15: Greater Spell Penetration
17: Persistent Spell
19: Any metamagic of choice + Lightning Reflexes (bonus)
I have a druid archer in 3.5 who works pretty well. She has point blank shot, precise shot and rapid shot. She has decent dexterity plus the gloves of dexterity (+2) so she manages to get decent attack rolls even when using rapid shot. She also frequently buffs her dex to gain attack and AC bonuses. This is a pretty effective build.
But druids have higher BAB than sorcerers do. Still there's no reason you can't have decent dex in a sorcerer build and get the same feats and some magic dex bonuses as well. I think the druid would be slightly better as a straight archer than a sorcerer, but sorcerers have more and better ranged touch attack spells. Plus sorcerers have accuracy boosting spells as well that druids lack. I think it could work, it won't be the most optimized character ever, but it would be a sorcerer who didn't rely entirely on spells to do damage, which can be very useful.
For example, in our last big battle, my druid only cast a single spell, and that was a heal spell on an NPC who was being tortured by the bad guys. Otherwise she did full round attacks with her bow and did enough damage to contribute to the party. Next time we are in town with a magic shop she is getting "shock" added to her bow so that she does an extra d6 with each arrow. Then she'll be even better.
Get some scrolls or wands with "cat's grace" and get some gloves of dexterity and just stick with straight sorcerer and you should be fine.
Even Reduce Person can be useful: +1 size bonus to attack, +2 Size bonus to Dexterity, for a net gain of +2 to attack rolls.
And at 10th level: Quickened True Strikes! Good with Deadly Aim.
Jaime, perhaps it would help if you let us know how you and your group prefer to play the game. Is it critical to your group to have the most optimized builds possible and to cover all the role bases religiously? Or does your group tend to favor role playing and character flavor over pure optimization?
If you are looking for an optimized build, then sorcerer archer is probably never going to be as good as other options that might satisfy the same arcane-ranged concept.
I tend to be in between the optimized and flavor build approaches. My druid is clearly not optimized, but our group is more about role play and story telling than about taking down the bad guy in record times. In that environment she works great as an archer druid who isn't optimized for summoning or wild shaping. I believe she gains versatility and I value that in role playing.
So let us know what you're looking for and you may get more helpful suggestions.
Even Reduce Person can be useful: +1 size bonus to attack, +2 Size bonus to Dexterity, for a net gain of +2 to attack rolls.And at 10th level: Quickened True Strikes! Good with Deadly Aim.
I have a 3.5 ranger who uses quickened true strikes and hunter's mercy to be a damage causing machine. He specializes in dragon killing.
The only problem with reduce person is that it also reduces the damage die of your weapon. But you have to hit before you can do damage, so reduce person would not be a bad thing for a sorcerer (I don't think druids get that spell). It would also increase your AC as well, I think also by +2.
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(You don't have to be an elf to be an arcane archer anymore!)
Dan, can you tell where where you're getting that? I have a third printing of the Core Rulebook, and it still lists Arcane Archer as being elf or half-elf only, not human.
Has there been a board post that this is going to be errata'd in the next round?
In the game I'm in right now, we've house ruled that any race can take Arcane Archer (of course, all elves got squashed under a meteor strike--my DM hates elves), but it would be good to see the actual rule.
Thanks!
I'm committed to playing a sorcerer for a game. . .
Things that can't change:
Human
Sorcerer at lvl 1
Fey bloodline
Feats toughness and dodge at lvl 1 (might be able to trade out dodge for arcane strike)
It's interesting that you're stuck with all of these choices, but haven't yet decided what your characters basic M.O. will be. But, since that's what we have to work with, lets look at the strengths.
Sorcerer - You really only need one stat to be a good sorcerer, your charisma. You'll be able to cast a lot of spells on any given adventuring day, re-using the best spell you have for the situation as much as needed. Metamagic rods will be your friend, since they will provide you with a degree of flexibility in your spell selection.
Human - You can take the alternate class feature for human sorcerers, which is outstanding!
"Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest spell level the sorcerer can cast."
Take a hit point at levels 1 & 2, since you don't really need extra cantrips, then start learning extra spells. At level 10 you'll know 23 spells instead of 15.
You can start with a 20 Charisma, which will make your saving throw DCs very high. Your Arcane Trickster friend will be trying to avoid anyone getting a saving throw vs. his spells because his DCs are very low, so all of the "Save or Else" spells will be in your territory.
Also, with 20 charisma and an extra skill point per level, you can easily be the party's talker. Back that up with a couple of well chosen spells and you'll be slicker than James Bond. (In addition to supernaturally high charisma and impeccable social skills, you can speak any language fluently and literally read strangers minds by looking at them!)
The Fey Bloodline offers a few good abilities:
Touch attack, so you'll have a decent chance to hit.
Best of all, you threaten all the squares around you as long as you have an empty hand, and you needed that hand empty for spellcasting anyway!
.
But I've never played a sorcerer (or an archer), so I'm not sure if I should do the archer build above or go straight sorcerer with a blaster role. . .The rest of the party includes a rogue (going to Arcane Trickster, so I expect he may do battlefield control), a cleric, a fighter, and a barbarian.
Your Arcane Trickster friend will be a blaster, and everyone in the party will be a better damage dealer than you, even if you focus on dealing damage. A much more fulfilling role would be battlefield control and buffing.
You can, for example, use a second level spell (Create Pit) to open up a hole under your enemy(s). This will deal a little damage to them, but more important, it will take them out of the fight for a few rounds. Fighting two ogres? Sorcerer gets to say, "Let's just fight one for now, and decide what to do with the other after this one is dead."
Oh, and the first level spell Hydraulic Push goes great with pits. There's no saving throw allowed against Hydraulic Push, and no saving throw allowed vs Create Pit if you're pushed into it!
Hold Person = flying creature falls (or) rogue kills you now (or) Quit casting all those noisy spells mage-face, my friends are trying to concentrate on killin' your minions.
Also, you get +2 save DC from your bloodline (Compulsion spell) so the DC will probably be 22 or higher.
Basically, you get to Kayne West your enemies whenever you want. "I'm very happy for you monster. Imma let you finish, but Bruno's got the best DPR of all time, and he's just gonna kill you and your friends quick . . ."
(You don't have to be an elf to be an arcane archer anymore!)Dan, can you tell where where you're getting that? I have a third printing of the Core Rulebook, and it still lists Arcane Archer as being elf or half-elf only, not human.
Has there been a board post that this is going to be errata'd in the next round?
In the game I'm in right now, we've house ruled that any race can take Arcane Archer (of course, all elves got squashed under a meteor strike--my DM hates elves), but it would be good to see the actual rule.
Thanks!
My bad! I thought they un-elfed the requirements, like they un-dwarfed the Stalwart Defender.
Maybe there is an errata? House rule? Maybe being fey-blooded counts enough to be considered elf?