Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
At least 2 posters in this thread are going to hate me for this..
Arnim, It is not your Job to Help sell PF products, it is your job to make sure all the players have an enjoyable game, That is it.
I don't hate you, Dragnmoon. Quite the contrary: I agree with you.
Arnim, it's awesome that you do this, and you show an amazing amount of loyalty by feeling obligated. But you shouldn't. The job of selling should be left to the store. Your presence as a GM for PFS helps, and you should certainly answer questions that are raised at your table. But the moment the questions head toward the books on display, you should be getting a store employee involved. This is their job.
However, Dragnmoon:
Running your "Offical" PFS game a month is still your best solution, because your not going to get them to change replay rules.
Some other ideas you can do with this.
1 "Offical" PFS game a month
&
1 "Unoffical" PFS game a month using non PFS character that are not offical but making sure you only runs one that people have played
Or instead of the "Unoffical" PF game you can run another Systems ORG play that week. Shadowrun has a Great Org play called 'Missions'
...this is not the answer. Recruiting more players is the answer. We run three sessions of PFS per month in our store, with 3 tables each session, and two slots during the Saturday session. So, 12 tables per month. Many of those 70 monthly players will be new because of the fourth session we run every month:
A Learn to Play Pathfinder table. We always run this table on a night separate from PFS, and it is what our staff pushes new purchasers of Pathfinder product toward. They always have questions about how to play, and this is our answer. We advertise it at all the local high schools. We run either Master of the Fallen Fortress or Mists of Mwangi every single time, and we report it as a PFS session, giving out cards to all the new players. We have pregenerated characters on hand for every character class (not the Paizo ones - they suck), along with minis and a set of dice ready for each player. We usually give them all of this at the end of the session. Last, we make sure that they know they can repeat this experience three times monthly.
The best solution to any problem experienced by stores or coordinators is finding new players. Constantly finding new players. It's good for PFS, it's good for stores' sales, it's good Paizo, it's good for the players who are looking for new blood for their home game. There is nothing about this that can be called bad. It should be of paramount importance in every program and store.
If you help with this, Arnim, you will go a lot farther toward meeting your (personal) sales goals. (-:
[EDIT] Spelling. It's a pet peeve...
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Please listen to us.I believe their track record on this is pretty clear.
100% agree. It is actually stunning to see just how involved this company is with their customer base. I cannot think of a single company I work with (outside of distributors) who does as much for my store as this one does by simply listening to what I have to say and occasionally replying.
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
We are actually looking at a "Shadow Lodge" unofficial PFS play to help fill time, understanding that characters from these can ONLY be used in Shadow Lodge play. We had already set up "PF Arena" to help introduce the Bestiary 2 Monsters, as a play against the Pokemon style poster ("Gotta kill them all!") to fill time as well. Offering the APs has been problematic, getting the people involved with a long-term commitment in such a small setting; many are already playing these as there home game and have no interest in doing it in a public setting. Offering the modules is a fairly new idea and we have used Godsmouth now to help as well.
In essence, I AM trying all of these ideas, throwing things to the wall and seeing what sticks.
Obviously, the idea that the Season 0 scenarios (and only these!) would make great replay is an idea met with scorn. These nineteen scenarios (though in reality I was only looking at the thirteen Tier 1-7) are slated to be updated or retired anyways, with the most of them probably seeing retirement. I don't see how limiting it to those scenarios "breaks" the system in the long run. To me, it is designating them as intro tables, much like Masters of the Fallen Fortress. Hell, pick the top 5 most popular and use them. Either way, it gives a clear cut, "these are the ones" guide to what could be used for replay. And just as clearly, no one is interested in the idea, just wanting to shoot it down.
In the future, PFS will have more scenarios to choose from; this is a given. We will have to see who sticks around to see them released.
|
We are actually looking at a "Shadow Lodge" unofficial PFS play to help fill time, understanding that characters from these can ONLY be used in Shadow Lodge play.
I'm having a really hard time following the logic on this. We need replay for credit so badly that we are going to create our our unsanctioned play environment to replay in...for no credit?
It does sound like you've got pretty much all the bases covered with diversification, but your players are under the mistaken impression they should be playing for credit more than 2/month? It sounds like you might have some luck Drogon suggestion of explicitly trying to muster newbie tables differently/separately as well as then offering the new month's modules? That way for the newbie slot you can offer pretty much anything because newbies haven't played anything and if you are expressly planning them 1/month you can hopefully get the turnout needed for the table.
|
Obviously, the idea that the Season 0 scenarios (and only these!) would make great replay is an idea met with scorn. These nineteen scenarios (though in reality I was only looking at the thirteen Tier 1-7) are slated to be updated or retired anyways, with the most of them probably seeing retirement. I don't see how limiting it to those scenarios "breaks" the system in the long run. To me, it is designating them as intro tables, much like Masters of the Fallen Fortress. Hell, pick the top 5 most popular and use them. Either way, it gives a clear cut, "these are the ones" guide to what could be used for replay. And just as clearly, no one is interested in the idea, just wanting to shoot it down.
You're making some very incorrect assumptions here. Hyrum/Mark have already stated that the season zero retirements are probably complete. The assumption at this time is that all other modules listed will be updated to PFS, which they are currently in the process of updating. At this time, "most of them probably [are] seeing retirement", is an incorrect statement.
|
...this is not the answer. Recruiting more players is the answer. We run three sessions of PFS per month in our store, with 3 tables each session, and two slots during the Saturday session. So, 12 tables per month. Many of those 70 monthly players will be new because of the fourth session we run every month:
A Learn to Play Pathfinder table. We always run this table on a night separate from PFS, and it is what our staff pushes new purchasers of Pathfinder product toward. They always have questions about how to play, and this is our answer. We advertise it at all the local high schools. We run either Master of the Fallen Fortress or Mists of Mwangi every single time, and we report it as a PFS session, giving out cards to all the new...
I like this. as new coordinator i had already seen this as the way to avoid the replay hassle.
I would also like to add. Give your experienced players a job. whether its gm'ing scenarios they can not replay. or assisting new players in character creation and rules coaching. this last weekend i would have to say 1/2 hour of game play was taken up with the new players looking up spells they intend to cast, or rules on combat maneuvers. as a GM i would love having some one help the players with this to speed play. I had no "pets" I can only imagine a new player trying to figure out how to make their druid companion or summoners pet do something. some one experienced with these rules advising them on the rules and basically giving them the knowledge to play effectively could be a great boon to gm's.
Planning is also Key. Plan no more sessions a month than you have available scenarios for the majority of your players. In my case less. I do not want to limit them at conventions. so i plan on running one session every 3 weeks, alternating between season 2 and later and season 0 and 1. I know as gamers we want to play 2-3 times a week. but this is just not feasible in society play. if they need that much game play. encourage them to play adventure paths at home or on off weekends with non PFS characters. to scratch the itch so to speak. (and this increases sales for you store owners)
finally bribes are good. Bribe them to come. Pizza and soda are cheap and good bribes to offer your core players. have your experienced players assemble 2 hours before the session assign jobs as above. feed them. bring in the new players (after food is cleaned up unless you plan to bribe the newer players too). and have a blast just like always. and if you say i can not afford that. think about it from this stand point it will probably cost you as much for pizza and soda as a movie date. (2-3 medium pizzas and a liter of coke usually less than $25) that's a pretty reasonable entertainment expense twice a month.
|
|
1. Ignore feedback
2. Respond to every complaint with "we're right because..."
3. Try to cater to every genre so that pathfinder is mediocre at several things, excellent at nothing
4. Emphasize sales of new materials over Player/GM experience.
Ugh, really? Paizo does not do any of these things except #2 with any regularity. Responding to a complaint with a reason why they're right shows they are interested in the problem and have given it thought. I'd agree with you if you said they just respond to every complaint with 'We're right now shut up.' but they don't.
Replay is a tricky thing and Paizo is trying solutions (modules) to help us out. If demand is there (and it clearly is) the only TRUE solution is to produce enough modules to keep up with that demand. That's the choke point.
Paizo MUST find a way to clear the bottle neck. Just the other day I saw Paizo say that going through user submitted mods was the lowest priority right now. They had a good reason (GenCon) but it still saddened me. Replay will destroy a part of PFS and they're ignoring (or downplaying) their best solution.
We need more mods. Until then solutions like 'play for fun not credit' have to be accepted as a temporary solution. Please NO replay!
|
|
Albeit I think the replay rules should be amended, I do not understand the frustration. I would be more sympathetic if it was an issue of having swelling numbers for PFS and you want there to be incentive for older players to mix with the new. But as this thread continues on, this seems less to be the case and more of the fact you have a very voracious group of dedicated players that tear through the scenarios.
At this point, I think that while you should keep PFS running monthly, you would fair much better by starting a dedicated campaign. Look no further than the APs, for they are well written and bring more enjoyment than PFS scenarios (in my opinion). There is something to be said for having a dedicated story line with a consistent group of players.
In fact, PFS serves a twofold purpose: (1) to allow gamers to experience the joys of RPGs at the convenience of a very busy schedule and (2) to forge new connections and friendships for those with more time to devote towards a dedicated campaign. I believe you and your community seem to fit better in the 2nd category. I know I do myself, and the rewards have been plentiful.
|
|
Please listen to us.
It seems to me when you say this what you mean is you want Paizo to ignore the needs of the rest of the community and listen to YOU exclusively. It just doesn't work that way.
How have they listened:
Since the topic of Replay was last beaten to death...
Paizo has released two modules for play, one of which is ideal for mixing new players and more experienced players.
Paizo has committed to releasing all new modules into PFS which will accelerate the flow of new material legal for PFS.
You can't turn a ship on a dime, how about a little breathing room here, things are changing for the better on this.
|
|
Obviously, the idea that the Season 0 scenarios (and only these!) would make great replay is an idea met with scorn.
Actually Arnim, there hasn't been a lot of response on this specifically, just the general idea of replay. I held off on responding, because I've been weighing the idea for a couple of days.
I get where you are coming from with this idea, and at first I liked it myself. Why not encourage players to go back and replay some early favourites now they have been brought into line rules-wise?
But then I thought about why the replay rules were changed (from my perspective).
To put a limiter on certain forms of abuse.
To address the inequity in credit between those who only play and those who primarily DM, and possibly encourage players to GM instead of pushing GMs to play.
To prevent players who have prior knowledge of scenarios from spoiling the experience.
I agree with you that the abuse factor is pretty small compared to other possible forms of cheating, under the guidelines you set up.
Prior knowledge issues will vary widely from group to group, and possibly dependent on the scenario. However, the fact that these scenarios have been mechanically updated will not affect this, as the plot and missions are still the same. So I don't see why this would encourage an exception to the rule.
And finally, 13 scenarios that a player gets extra credit for is up to 4 levels that a GM falls behind.
So after consideration, I don't personally think that the replay rules should be adjusted for this.
Off topic from the Original Post
Making hostile general statements against the majority of people that you are trying to convince is not usually a way to sway people to seeing things from your point of view.
I know that I was personally offended, because even though I've been a subscriber to Paizo products for the last 4 years, I've been a supporter at multiple FLGS's for the last 25. I buy Paizo products not covered under my subscriptions, miniatures, paint, other RPG's, board games, comics.... As well I have organized PFS, Adventure Paths, D&D games/demos, Heroclix, card games, board game days...
And many of the other posters are probably the same.
|
this is not the answer. Recruiting more players is the answer. We run three sessions of PFS per month in our store, with 3 tables each session, and two slots during the Saturday session. So, 12 tables per month. Many of those 70 monthly players will be new because of the fourth session we run every month:
Drogon I was under the impression that he was in a small community so recruiting enough players was not an option, that is Why I never brought it up.
|
dragnmoon is right. without trying to sound to cocky here, when it comes to player recruiting, i think i am number 1 in the area, and thats because i will talk pf with anyone, trying to sell them on a game, i have even gone so far to convince a random person at the grocery store to come play. because i try that much.
another point brought up was about the store employees selling the books and not arnim or i. this is another problem, the shop only has the owner and his best friend as employees. and arnim and i are more educated on pf then they are
|
|
actually jason the rules have changed since then to where you are not allowed to replay mods. u get 1 player and 1 gm credit now, no play play play for credit and our veteran players aren't willing to play for no credit even if it is free
Thanks for letting me know, I just assumed that the guide would be updated with a major change like that.
Seems to me the Replay rules were fine when it leaned towards "Play Play Play". Maybe a few people would abuse it, but who cares, at least people are playing Pathfinder.
|
|
Before I read this thread, my opinion was that "Eh, replay is boring, but OK..."
I've now come to the conclusion that a subset of the player base is far more into the Skinner Treadmill aspect than the roleplaying game aspect of PFS. That's fine, it's a valid way to play, even if it's NOT to my taste.
Now, by far and away, the best solution for this is for Paizo to finish absorbing Apple as their consumer electronics division, hire about 40 writers and produce 20 PFS scenarios per month. Those kinds of corporate acquisitions take time, with SEC filings about taking Apple private again, so we need a solution that works in the meantime.
You get the kind of behaviors your rule system rewards.
Replay for full credit rewards "Grind For Level, Blow Through Encounters You Know How To Beat." It does not reward playing scenarios for fun.
I am firmly convinced that there should be No Replay For Credit. I am not entirely convinced that there should be No Rewards For Replay.
What rewards can we give for replay to help move people off the fence, but not encourage "Yeah, this is my 27th time through Throaty Mermaid..."?
The following suggestion replaces Chronicle Sheets for Gold, PA and XP for replayers only.
Some I've been thinking about:
1) Each replay you do gets you a token/bookmark/etc. The bookmark is either a free re-roll after seeing the first die roll. In essence, it's the same perk the Faction Shirt gives.
1B) You get a number of additional tokens equal to one third of the number of Brand New PFS Members you played with at the table, rounded down. (This gives 1 re-roll per replayer no matter what, and 2 re-roll tokens for the replayer who plays with three brand new players)
1C) Use of the re-roll requires giving up the token or bookmark.
1D) Re-roll tokens expire 13 months after they're issued (Expiration date written by GM on the card).
2) Each replay you do replenishes one CPA on a character of your choice. Your CPA can never exceed your TPA.
I'd actually say that both options are available, but the the player has to choose at the start of the session which one he gets for the replay.
You may replay a scenario up to twice, taking the other reward on each replay.
|
One soultion to the replay problem would be once a month the event cordinator or the Venture Captain for the area colect $5 from each player and use that money to subscribe to the PFS Modules on a quaterly basis. This would insure that we always have new content for our players.
Mark would Pazio be willing to create an offical set of guidelines for creating pfs modules. Your PFS players could create a modules and submit them to the area cordinator or venture captain to look over and play. THey even could be sent to Pazio for new content.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Mark would Pazio be willing to create an offical set of guidelines for creating pfs modules. Your PFS players could create a modules and submit them to the area cordinator or venture captain to look over and play. THey even could be sent to Pazio for new content.
We have guidelines for designing PFS scenarios. The open call to write material for the campaign is here. We have no plans to sanction play of unofficial material for PFS credit.
|
|
There are a lot of specific questions in this thread, which I plan to address on Monday, so thanks to everyone for your patience on the weekend.
What... you don't slave for us on the weekends? hehehe. Have a great rest of the weekend and get back to us when you can. We are fools, but patient ones. Er, or at least I'm a fool. :D
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
There are a lot of specific questions in this thread, which I plan to address on Monday, so thanks to everyone for your patience on the weekend.
I look forward to your response.
In consideration, my thoughts on replay first came to mind while prepping Murder on the Throaty Mermaid which seems almost written for replay, with the multiple possible murder suspects. And it is a true masterpiece of an adventure, showing how a potential mystery scenario can be developed without being linear. My hat is of to you for this one!
I had the displeasure of running a group last week play though Penumbral Accords that resulted in a TPK due to some epically bad decisions. Under the "no replay for credit" rules, those players would never be able to see how that scenario would have turned out, since they were all (save one) level one characters and have no desire to run those characters ever again. Even if they wanted to try again, they couldn't, having gone through the minimum three encounters to count it, using the rules as written. As a GM, I made the decision to not report the event, with the caveat that if they try it again, it has to be a different character, and preferably at a different tier. Otherwise, this would have been a truly disappointing game event for all involved. I don't consider it "cheating" to give them a chance to try it again... the characters involved with their first attempt will probably never see play again. And I trust them not to use player knowledge on their next run through.
I prefer the games I run to be fun for everyone involved. I concede that, to some, unlimited replay destroys that element. But I also don't believe that some form of replay "breaks" organized play. Masters of the Fallen Fortress is still UNLIMITED replay, and I have yet to see it raise any problems within my small community.
In the end, none of this will stop me from organizing PFS at out FLGS, especially since I just posted our event calendar for March on our Facebook page. It was just an idea, one that too many apparently are ready to shoot down and post negatively about rather than give it some consideration first.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Drogon I was under the impression that he was in a small community so recruiting enough players was not an option, that is Why I never brought it up.
My community started out just as small. We had 6 players to start with in August of 2009, and as recently as April of last year had issues getting tables to actually fire. Now, I'm at 70+ butts in seats every month. In September we ran five tables of Year of the Shadow Lodge, and the only reason we didn't run more is because we didn't have the space in the store.
I have no major schools near me, I am not near any high density housing, and the store was less than three years old when we started PFS play, so I think I qualify as starting out in the same boat. Yes, I'm in Denver metro, but I'm on the far south side in a suburb.
If there are enough people in the community to keep the game store afloat and cash positive, then there are enough to draw on to create a larger PFS community than what currently exists. It's merely a numbers thing.
Dragnmoon is right. without trying to sound to cocky here, when it comes to player recruiting, i think i am number 1 in the area, and thats because i will talk pf with anyone, trying to sell them on a game, i have even gone so far to convince a random person at the grocery store to come play. because i try that much.
This is awesome. Keep it up, don't get discouraged, and start thinking outside the box. Make posters to put up at schools. Talk to teachers to start RPG clubs. But, more importantly:
another point brought up was about the store employees selling the books and not arnim or i. this is another problem, the shop only has the owner and his best friend as employees. and arnim and i are more educated on pf then they are
They need to learn their product. This is their livelihood. Even though I don't regularly play most of the games in my store, I know enough about every single one to have a long conversation with a prospective buyer. This has to be their job. You are not in the store all the time. They are. When someone comes in to buy Pathfinder product, they should be telling them about PFS (or the newbie table, as Mark Garringer called it). This is the number one point of contact for acquiring new players, and they are there more than you or Arnim ever will be.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
It was just an idea, one that too many apparently are ready to shoot down and post negatively about rather than give it some consideration first.
Arnim, I think this thread has been far more positive than any of the previous threads. You even have people like me willing to give your arguments credence and people like Neil and AdAstraGames weighing in on them. Please don't let this get bogged down in frustration.
[EDIT]Misquoted. Fixed, now...
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
Arnim, I think this thread has been far more positive than any of the previous threads. You even have people like me willing to give your arguments credence and people like Neil and AdAstraGames weighing in on them. Please don't let this get bogged down in frustration.
[EDIT]Misquoted. Fixed, now...
And your commentary has been appreciated, good sir. Agreed this discussion has been more civil than other similar threads. I concur that my frustration has fueled a few of my posts. I will patiently await for the response from Mr. Savage or Mr. Moreland tomorrow.
|
|
Hi! Im one of the players from the Carbondale, Il area that Arnim has helped get PFS off the ground for.
Ive read through this thread now, and Ive hopefully organized my throughts well enough to make them into coherent comments.
When I heard that PPP had been altered to its current form, I thought it was a stupid move, but now that I read about the reasons (in general mind you, I know of nothing specific), I can see how it might be a good idea. I understand why Paizo has changed the ruling to its current form, but I still dont side with it necessarily for a few points.
1. If nothing else, this needs to be changed so that when you DM you get credit more than once per mod. As multiple people over multiple threads have said, once youve run it once, why would you wanna run it again? If these people are so desperate for credit, this is a safer way, I feel, of giving it to them. Safer in that it allows for less abuse, I think.
2. I read in another thread about a guy who said he lives within 45 mins of 7 different PFS running shops. Maybe he REALLY wants to play, and REALLY wants credit. Assuming the DMs dont overlap from store to store, what is to stop him from creating 7 separate email accounts, sign up for 7 different PFS numbers, and running a separate number at each store he visits, thereby allowing him to play in each mod 7 times, and run each mod 7 times for credit? Nothing, as far as I can see.
My main PFS character is almost lvl 7 now, and in all honesty, if he died in a mod, if I wanted to continue playing (which I might not, opposed to just running) Id consider changing numbers, just to allow myself the ability to replay all those mods (dm permitting, since he would know).
The way Im seeing this right now is the 'people will find a way to abuse it, no matter what.' such as I listed up there. This basically boils down to a nerdy version of a gun rights argument. 'Gun laws need to be more strict to keep them out of the hands of criminals' vs 'criminals dont obey the law anyway, so all your doing it limiting the people who would buy them legally'.
Im not making a political statement here. What Im saying is by limiting replay, all your doing is applying a blanket solution to a specific problem. If those people who I would think are few and far between, opposed to a mass pandemic of cheaters, are such an issue with metagaming or spoiling the fun of newbies, kick them from the mod/table/store. It the replay value is THAT important that thats the only reason they play, let them play at home.
With my last sentence right there, you could twist that to serve the other side of the argument into 'and thats why you can still play for fun', but if someone's definition of fun is playing through these, and they wanna play through them lots (or 5 for once per faction) of times, so they can have lots of high level society characters to choose from when they go to Gencon/Paizocon/whatevever, why not let them?
Id really like to see answers from Mark, but I'll understand if your busy, lol.
|
|
Since this was my problem from when the replay rules were changed to the current format I am giving my 2 cp again. I will start with this we have a high turnover due to being near military bases.
I organize the play for our local FLGS. None of us can seem to get a character above 6th level and those were the people whoe started the group. Now there are only 4 of us from the original group with characters of that level.
We have a secondary group of people with 4th or 5th at best. Lately we haven't been able to even play that group due to part of that "cast" of character's players being absent. The original members have characters at these levels too, but they have now become the GM's for the group.
We now have a 3rd group starting out. The last two game days we have had we have had 7 new people show (3 at one and 4 at the other.) My belief is that 5 of those people will become regulars.
We had a really tough time finding low level mods to play yesterday. We didn't have enough of the secondary group to play that "cast" for that level. So we broke up into two low level tables. A concern of mine though is if we would have had a level 4/5 table then the two "casts" would never intermingle thus keeping the group segregated by level.
EDIT: I really like the idea of the tokens!!!
|
|
1. If nothing else, this needs to be changed so that when you DM you get credit more than once per mod. As multiple people over multiple threads have said, once youve run it once, why would you wanna run it again?
Unless I'm mistaken, every session GMed (replayed or not) moves you further towards being a 4-star GM. If someone's doing that much GMing, I imagine they'd care more about that than advancing a PC that they're not playing.
|
1. If nothing else, this needs to be changed so that when you DM you get credit more than once per mod. As multiple people over multiple threads have said, once youve run it once, why would you wanna run it again?Unless I'm mistaken, every session GMed (replayed or not) moves you further towards being a 4-star GM. If someone's doing that much GMing, I imagine they'd care more about that than advancing a PC that they're not playing.
This has certainly been my experience.
It seems to me that you'd want to encourage GMs to replay. The first time I GM a scenario I realize I something I could do better, but there is not incentive to re-run it. I'm in more than one PFSOP group, and everyone want to play, no one wants to GM, so I end up GMing more than playing. It'd be nice if I could amortize my prep work across groups and still be able to see some of my characters progress.
You re-run it because you have players that haven't played it yet and would enjoy it.
The purpose of allowing a GM credit is so that he can keep his character at the same level as the players he's running scenarios for.
Say for example you GM the same scenarios for Group A and B over alternate weekends. In six months, you've GMed 12 scenarios (twice) for 12 GM credits, and they've played 12 scenarios (once) for 12 player credits, your characters are all the same level.
Now, let's say a convention is happening across town. Three players from Group A are interested in attending, and two players from Group B, and they each take along their 4th level character from your games.
You think it might be fun to go too, and guess what, you now have a 4th level character via GM credit, you can play at the same table as your players, cool!
Now, if you'd have received GM credit for EVERY session you GMed, your character might be 8th level, and you wouldn't be able to play at the same table.
That's how it's supposed to work, keeping GMs and their friends close to the same level as each other so they can rotate GM responsibility from time-to-time and your character still gets to play at their table.
You don't win anything for gaining the most credits, or having your character level race past those of your friends - Pathfinder is a social game to be enjoyed together.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
|
Venture-Captain, Missouri—Cape Girardeau
|
The purpose of allowing a GM credit is so that he can keep his character at the same level as the players he's running scenarios for.Say for example you GM the same scenarios for Group A and B over alternate weekends. In six months, you've GMed 12 scenarios (twice) for 12 GM credits, and they've played 12 scenarios (once) for 12 player credits, your characters are all the same level.
Now, let's say a convention is happening across town. Three players from Group A are interested in attending, and two players from Group B, and they each take along their 4th level character from your games.
You think it might be fun to go too, and guess what, you now have a 4th level character via GM credit, you can play at the same table as your players, cool!
Now, if you'd have received GM credit for EVERY session you GMed, your character might be 8th level, and you wouldn't be able to play at the same table.
That's how it's supposed to work, keeping GMs and their friends...
Actually, under the example you used, the GM would only have a 2nd level character if he ran the same scenarios for both groups under the current rules. In essence he has only run 6 scenarios. A GM can only get GM credit for a scenario once.
EDIT: miss the "(twice)" in your example; you are correct.
Now if both groups were running different scenarios because they have an alternate GM or they had been through them before the other group, then you would be playing with only the fourth level group.
|
|
Hi! Im one of the players from the Carbondale, Il area that Arnim has helped get PFS off the ground for.
Ive read through this thread now, and Ive hopefully organized my throughts well enough to make them into coherent comments.
You might not want to be so glib about your willingness to cheat and implicating your GMs willingness to look the other way. Just sayin...
|
|
Now if both groups were running different scenarios because they have an alternate GM or they had been through them before the other group, then you would be playing with only the fourth level group.
I slot-zero new releases with my homegroup, and then run them multiple times again at conventions and game stores, but I only get credited ONCE for having run them multiple times. Nonetheless, my characters remain in pace with those of my homegroup friends, so if one of them volunteers to GM a game for me once in a while, I can still join their table.
That's how it works for me, tbough I acknowledge there are any number of situations that would throw the maths out.
Cheers,
DarkWhite
|
|
One way to look at GM credits is this:
Your PFS character will get to play a grand total of 67 scenarios from 1st to 12th, assuming they get XP for each scenario.
That's 67 games (at ~28 games per year) or about 2.5 years worth of play assuming sane scheduling.
The GM gets to run those games - and they're fun for running - but each game you play is part of a finite path in exploring a character's motivations and story arc.
The reward is the journey, not the destination.
GM credits are there so that GMs can, from time to time, relinquish the wheel to their players and play at roughly the same level. Most GMs I know seem to try to keep a character at the same level as their primary play group, and try to build up at least one, and often two or more PCs that they keep stockpiled at lower levels.
GM credits give you the LEAST IMPORTANT part of PFS: They give you the accrual of special abilities, not the fun of playing a character in a new adventure you've never seen before.
(If there were any change I'd make to Season 3 of PFS, it would be to make each level from 6 on take 4 XPs (and jigger the PA scaling a bit if needed) to advance. 3 XPs for levels 1 through 6, 4 XPs for levels 7 through 12. This is meant to extend the time to play in the sweet spot of the game engine, which is largely levels 7 through 10...there is no practical way to do this that I can think of that won't cause a debate that makes the Replay Argument look like "No, no, you should get half my Powerball winnings. Think of the fluffy kittens and butterflies!" by comparison.)
|
|
One way to look at GM credits is this:
Your PFS character will get to play a grand total of 67 scenarios from 1st to 12th, assuming they get XP for each scenario.
That's 67 games (at ~28 games per year) or about 2.5 years worth of play assuming sane scheduling.
The GM gets to run those games - and they're fun for running - but each game you play is part of a finite path in exploring a character's motivations and story arc.
The reward is the journey, not the destination.
GM credits are there so that GMs can, from time to time, relinquish the wheel to their players and play at roughly the same level. Most GMs I know seem to try to keep a character at the same level as their primary play group, and try to build up at least one, and often two or more PCs that they keep stockpiled at lower levels.
I know this is how I operate. When I first heard about GM credit I was ecstatic, but as time progresses, I've found myself less and less interested in giving GM credit to PCs, mainly because I then don't get to play them. What I have been doing though is stockpiling a bunch of characters to level 2, mainly because I find level one less than fun.
|
|
I had the displeasure of running a group last week play though Penumbral Accords that resulted in a TPK due to some epically bad decisions. Under the "no replay for credit" rules, those players would never be able to see how that scenario would have turned out, since they were all (save one) level one characters and have no desire to run those characters ever again. Even if they wanted to try again, they couldn't, having gone through the minimum three encounters to count it, using the rules as written. As a GM, I made the decision to not report the event, with the caveat that if they try it again, it has to be a different character, and preferably at a different tier. Otherwise, this would have been a truly disappointing game event for all involved. I don't consider it "cheating" to give them a chance to try it again... the characters involved with their first attempt will probably never see play again. And I trust them not to use player knowledge on their next run through.
Not everyone agrees with me, but this is how I see Character death and Credit. If a Character dies and can't be brought back to life, the player never got his 1 Player credit, even if he died in the last encounter he still did not get his one player credit. So I feel it is within the rules of 1 player credit/1 GM credit to allow a player to play it again to get that one player credit he did not get the first time he went through it because he died. This to me fits the new 1 Player Credit/1 GM credit rule.
I tried to get a clarification on this but never got one, so that is what I have been using *only came up once*.
|
|
Your PFS character will get to play a grand total of 67 scenarios from 1st to 12th, assuming they get XP for each scenario.....If there were any change I'd make to Season 3 of PFS....
Maybe it's still early on a Monday...but how do you get 67 scenarios for a character? The way I see it, you get 33 from 1st to 12th.
On another note, while the replay option is fine as it is now, I would totally back up an extension of the game in the upper levels as you put.
|
|
Your PFS character will get to play a grand total of 67 scenarios from 1st to 12th, assuming they get XP for each scenario.....If there were any change I'd make to Season 3 of PFS....Maybe it's still early on a Monday...but how do you get 67 scenarios for a character? The way I see it, you get 33 from 1st to 12th.
On another note, while the replay option is fine as it is now, I would totally back up an extension of the game in the upper levels as you put.
My bad math brain not working early in the morning. You are right - it's 37 sessions out of a career. Which means that GM rewards rob you of an even larger percentage of a character's playing career.
I don't see any way to make levels 7 through 11 be 4 XP each that wouldn't cause the people who are currently going through those levels feel like they've been shafted by the rules change, or if grandfathered in, cause resentment from people going through the process more slowly.
It also runs into the problem of needing more scenarios, which is the current limiting factor on PFS play.
Clearly, the right solution is to send Hyrum and Mark a message:
"Hi. We're buying brand new hard backs to give away at every single PFS game we run. We feel that the ability of Paizo employees to build a fort out of their Paizo product is an unfair advantage when it comes to throwing dice at them at PaizoCon, and this is just self defense."
Clearly, if PFS play raises the sales of Paizo products by 5d4 orders of magnitude, they can hire at least one more writer before having the Puget Sound re-shaped into a Golem-shaped lair...
|
|
Unless I'm mistaken, every session GMed (replayed or not) moves you further towards being a 4-star GM. If someone's doing that much GMing, I imagine they'd care more about that than advancing a PC that they're not playing.
Because this does what for your time and effort? Does it have some kind of bonus, or is it effectively a gold sticker on your A+ spelling paper from first grade? From what I understand, its the latter.
@Stephen White: I understand your examples, and it makes sense, but the GM could apply the credit seperately (perhaps make it so credit for a scenario can only be applied once per character, but you can get credit more than once for running a mod), and then that would give them two 4th level characters to pick from when their friends are going to the con.
Personally, I think the DMing of the mods (espcecially for those who are purchsing themselves, and not having the store do it) is the hardest part about it, and they should be rewarded appropriately for taking their time and effort and putting it towards the game when others just come to play. If Im wrong about what the 4 star GM thing does for you, then maybe thats enough.
You might not want to be so glib about your willingness to cheat and implicating your GMs willingness to look the other way. Just sayin...
Im certainly not trying to be glib about cheating, but really, can you honestly give me one reason how it would be harmful to the other players IF i did it? As long as I keep my mouth shut about when bad guys are coming up, where they are, etc, I dont see how its any different than someone who has run the mod later playing in it.
Also, I wouldnt do it. I had considered it at one point, but now, Im becoming increasingly disenchanted with PFS in general. Im hoping it'll pass, but if my main character died, Id likely stop playing, and just run when needed.
Also also, I dont think any of the DMs Ive played PFS under would knowlingly allow me to change numbers and start fresh, so dont worry about that. They are all upstanding guys.
I kinda like the idea of the 4xp for the upper levels, as it extends the number of mods youd need to coimplete to get that high level character.
Lastly, and I know this is off topic, but with Godsmouth Heresy, can that be played with any level 1 character, or does it have to be a fresh, no exp at all, lvl 1 character, like Master of the Fallen Fortres?
|
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic
|
but with Godsmouth Heresy, can that be played with any level 1 character, or does it have to be a fresh, no exp at all, lvl 1 character, like Master of the Fallen Fortres?
You can even play with a 2nd level character!
See rules
|
|
Because this does what for your time and effort? Does it have some kind of bonus, or is it effectively a gold sticker on your A+ spelling paper from first grade? From what I understand, its the latter.
Right now the only reward is that 4 star GMs get access to a few special Scenarios a year before the rest of PFS.
They have hinted at adding more.
|
|
Because this does what for your time and effort? Does it have some kind of bonus, or is it effectively a gold sticker on your A+ spelling paper from first grade? From what I understand, its the latter.
The Midnight Mauler module is specifically offered as a perk to 4 Star GMs. That seems like a way cooler perk to me than just a gold sticker.
Im certainly not trying to be glib about cheating, but really, can you honestly give me one reason how it would be harmful to the other players IF i did it? As long as I keep my mouth shut about when bad guys are coming up, where they are, etc, I dont see how its any different than someone who has run the mod later playing in it.
It is different in that in your two examples, 1 Character is eligible for credit under the rules and 1 Character is not. Each module in PFS is a beautiful snowflake and should be enjoyed as such. Once played, it's gone. I really like the 1 and 1 rule for credit. You can replay as a player as much as you'd like, but you only get credit the first time. You can get an additional credit for running that module. Great! Great way to promoted people taking a turn behind the screen.
Im hoping it'll pass, but if my main character died, Id likely stop playing, and just run when needed.
If you are nearly 7th level, you should have a few options to be able to resolve this state should it happen. You seem to be ignoring them?
|
|
Because this does what for your time and effort? Does it have some kind of bonus, or is it effectively a gold sticker on your A+ spelling paper from first grade? From what I understand, its the latter.
Why do you need "payment" for playing a game? I just don't get this idea that not getting GM credit more than once discourages people from GM'ing. I GM a lot of scenarios more than once. I (and many other GM's) do it because I like to play, regardless from which side of the "screen" it takes place. Yes, the star program is a nice incentive, but I'd be doing it anyway. Granted, if you live in an extremely small, and secluded gaming environment it might be difficult for the GM to keep up in level with the players, but I'm fairly confident it's a small minority. Having traveled to quite a few regional conventions, and knowing people that go to even more, the vast majority of society players/GM's are okay with the credit rules as they currently exist.
Im certainly not trying to be glib about cheating, but really, can you honestly give me one reason how it would be harmful to the other players IF i did it? As long as I keep my mouth shut about when bad guys are coming up, where they are, etc, I dont see how its any different than someone who has run the mod later playing in it.
Cheating, in any form, regardless of whether or not you are caught, hurts everyone. First, because it makes the cheater more inclined to do it again. There are numerous studies that show people who cheat the first time are more likely to do it again. Apparently, there is a power-creep factor in regards to cheating.
Second, because the "other guy" who accepted his character death and rolled up a new character, is "cheated" out of continuing to play the first PC, if others are allowed to break the rules and ignore the death of their character. Of course, knowledge of the cheating would not be evident, but it exists nonetheless and sets a bad precedent. In cases like this, people always seem to find out somehow and the next thing you know, it becomes rampant and soon, "everyone" is doing it.As a GM who ends up playing most mods after I've run them (out of necessity) I can tell you, despite trying, it is extremely difficult to consistently separate player knowledge from character knowledge. You just do not make the same decisions as someone who is "ignorant" of the story. This same logic applies to replay. I had experience GM'ing some replay before the rules changed. Even good players struggled with meta-gaming issues. IMO, I do not think either should be allowed, but I understand why the current rule is as it is.
|
|
The Midnight Mauler module is specifically offered as a perk to 4 Star GMs. That seems like a way cooler perk to me than just a gold sticker.
Agreed. That is significantly better, lol.
It is different in that in your two examples, 1 Character is eligible for credit under the rules and 1 Character is not. Each module in PFS is a beautiful snowflake and should be enjoyed as such. Once played, it's gone. I really like the 1 and 1 rule for credit. You can replay as a player as much as you'd like, but you only get credit the first time. You can get an additional credit for running that module. Great! Great way to promoted people taking a turn behind the screen.
A great way to get people to take A turn behind the screen for that mod, ONCE perhaps. Otherwise, I would wager, the majority of players would much rather play and get credit for something than dm a mod theyve already run and get nothing from it.
If you are nearly 7th level, you should have a few options to be able to resolve this state should it happen. You seem to be ignoring them?
Not so much ignoring them as ignorant of them. Im not the head DM of the venue, so much of this is could be "I simply didnt know" reasoned.
@ Auke: Thanks for the info!
@ Twilight Knight:
I wouldnt neccessarily say I want 'payment' out of it, but Id at least like to enjoy myself as much as I would if I was getting to play.
The mods are written very well, but the combats generally dont provide much of a challenge to a balanced pc party (which obviously they dont always have) and the pcs generally seem to stumble through the roleplaying parts which generally are built on very little foundation for the pcs to have a desire to want to do it. Hence, my disenchantment.
As for the cheating part, I understand your point of view, though dont neccessarily 100% agree with it, so lets just drop it in order to move on.
Lastly, another Godsmouth Heresy question: If its for characters of lvls 1-2, why does it have gold listed for the tiers all the way through 10-11?
|
|
Not so much ignoring them as ignorant of them. Im not the head DM of the venue, so much of this is could be "I simply didnt know" reasoned.
Fair enough :) If you are only slightly dead you can raise dead for 5450 or 16 PA.
Lastly, another Godsmouth Heresy question: If its for characters of lvls 1-2, why does it have gold listed for the tiers all the way through 10-11?
Because if play it with a level 1 pregen character then you can assign the Chronicle to your PFS character and claim it at the appropriate tier for the receiving character.
All players who play the entire module receive the attached Chronicle. If a player uses a legal Pathfinder Society character for the adventure (existing, or newly created), he must apply the Chronicle to this PC. A player who plays a
pregenerated character may apply the credit to any existing Pathfinder Society character.
Can anyone point me to threads where GM replay credit was discussed? It seems to me that you'd want to encourage GMs to replay. The first time I GM a scenario I realize I something I could do better, but there is not incentive to re-run it. I'm in more than one PFSOP group, and everyone want to play, no one wants to GM, so I end up GMing more than playing. It'd be nice if I could amortize my prep work across groups and still be able to see some of my characters progress.
This is an interesting idea. The current replay rules
provide incentive for a GM to run each adventure once.I enjoy judging, even without credit, but I also like
building characters and credit allows for advancement.
I know this is how I operate. When I first heard about GM credit I was ecstatic, but as time progresses, I've found myself less and less interested in giving GM credit to PCs, mainly because I then don't get to play them. What I have been doing though is stockpiling a bunch of characters to level 2, mainly because I find level one less than fun.One way to look at GM credits is this:
Your PFS character will get to play a grand total of 67 scenarios from 1st to 12th, assuming they get XP for each scenario.
That's 67 games (at ~28 games per year) or about 2.5 years worth of play assuming sane scheduling.
The GM gets to run those games - and they're fun for running - but each game you play is part of a finite path in exploring a character's motivations and story arc.
The reward is the journey, not the destination.
GM credits are there so that GMs can, from time to time, relinquish the wheel to their players and play at roughly the same level. Most GMs I know seem to try to keep a character at the same level as their primary play group, and try to build up at least one, and often two or more PCs that they keep stockpiled at lower levels.
Agreed. I prefer to play my characters at higher levels,
rather than advance them artificially via judge credit.I try to use the credit wherever they have a weak spot.
|
|
Well holy shiznizzle. The guy whos been prepping that and ran it for a few of us doesnt know that, methinks.
I played it through that first time with a 'playtest-pregen' ninja and applied it to my main, but didnt know I got the higher gold amount.
Im learning all kinds of new stuff about this today.
Also just read the Cult of the Ebon Destroyers is now legal, so Im kinda psyched over that one as well, lol.
Along with what I was saying earlier, I think another part of my 'growing disenchantment' is that we are running PFS 2 weekends a month at the lgs, and several of those people are coming to my house for RotR on the PFS off weeks. So Im trying to prep for RotR, and taking an increasing role in PFS as our regular head GM is gonna be out for a few months on clinicals, leaving me holding the bag, more or less. So, PF is kinda taking over my life right now, where if Im not prepping for the homegame, Im prepping for PFS. Kind of alot on one guys plate, lol.
I think if I just get a bit better organized, then Ill have my head on a bit straigher.
|
|
I wouldnt neccessarily say I want 'payment' out of it, but Id at least like to enjoy myself as much as I would if I was getting to play.
I guess we're just different. I enjoy myself as much, and usually more, when I GM, than when I play, regardless of credit. I don't see how the credit/no credit aspect has an impact on the enjoyment of the actual gameplay.
The mods are written very well, but the combats generally dont provide much of a challenge to a balanced pc party (which obviously they dont always have) and the pcs generally seem to stumble through the roleplaying parts which generally are built on very little foundation for the pcs to have a desire to want to do it. Hence, my disenchantment.
I know this is not intended to disparage the mods, but IMO, most of the encounters that posters claim are too easy, can be made more difficult with some additional use of tactics and the environment by the creatures. Too often, I see GM's treat the encounters as static scenes sitting in frozen limbo until the PC's arrive. In most cases, there is a lot a GM can do to "tweak" the encounter to give more advantage to the monsters without actually changing their stat blocks.
And I'm not pointing at you, or your group, just relaying my opinion based on my observations.|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Because this does what for your time and effort? Does it have some kind of bonus, or is it effectively a gold sticker on your A+ spelling paper from first grade? From what I understand, its the latter.Right now the only reward is that 4 star GMs get access to a few special Scenarios a year before the rest of PFS.
They have hinted at adding more.
Yes, we have plans for additional in- and out-of-game rewards for GMing and playing.