How do you handle haggling for prices in your game? Do you have your players make a diplomacy check? Do you incorporate bluff and sense motive? Appraise?
How do you handle haggling for prices in your game? Do you have your players make a diplomacy check? Do you incorporate bluff and sense motive? Appraise?
People don't get discounts in real life based on how likable they are unless they are a close friend of the business owner so diplomacy would not drop the price in my games either. Now if they can give the shop keepr a good reason(one that involves the shopkeeper making more money) to give them a discount I can see a DM allowing that.
I don't use appraisal either because I could never figure out a fair system for it that did not get over on the players. I just assume the shop keepers are honest enough to offer fair prices.If you want to use it in your game I would say appraisal vs sense motive, but the PC's will almost always win that contest.
For appraisal it could be bluff(shop owner) vs the Pc's appraisal, and for every 5 by which the PC's lose they lose 5%.
PS:If the PC win in the case of them being the buyer they get a 5% discount for every 5 by which they beat the sense motive of the shop owner. I just made this up so I have no idea about how well it works.
In all the games my group has run (there's been about four alternating GM's now) it has been a diplomacy check. To set guidelines on the percentage off, set their attitude and every increase in it can be x percent off, but you only get one check.
Sadly, my group members have never tried the bluff approach... if they did (or as my wizard may now) I would give the vendor a sense motive. Success means they know they're being hosed and their prices go up, their attitude goes down.
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We had a long discussion in my game about how to handle haggling. There were so many skills that fit the bill, such as appraise, diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff. In the end, we didn't see one that encompassed the whole back and forth.
Diplomacy is skill in managing negotiations and handling people so that both parties walk away satisfied leaving little or no ill will. Friendly people have a leg up in the matter, but its certainly not the defining aspect of the skill. Countries that don't like each other "haggle" all the time. BUT, that doesn't account for knowledge of value or the art BS'ing about how this sword was once used by Duke Awesome Shinypants and I can't just let it go for normal price.
The end conclusion was that it should be a skill challenge, because knowledge, negotiation, and lying all play a part. We thought about synergies, but decided that A) those have been phased out of pathfinder, and B) skill challenges seemed a little more exciting and they're "in" at the moment. Yes, we let ourselves be steered by popularity, you can take my cool card away.
Caveat: Haggling is an art form, and if your characters are haggling over every little box of trail rations or dagger, your game will quickly devolve into Andoran Pickers Roadshow the RPG. I can't stress enough that this should be considered a role playing opportunity that loses its glamor VERY fast if overused.
The skill challenge: Haggling comes down to the final diplomacy roll. The challenge follows several steps, the outcome benefiting or hindering the diplomacy roll at the end. In order to keep it from being a minor collection of rolls, this method should *only* be used during one of the rare times that you decide to role play the purchase. Perhaps because the PC's needs something to complete a quest and needs just that little bit extra to afford it. Role play each step and *then* roll. Let the group participate, either by letting different characters take point on different steps, or aiding the point character by pointing out flaws in the merchants argument. Remember, the merchant should have reasonably good ranks in these skills. He does this all day, every day.
Step 1: Appraise to identify value per RAW. Success by 5/10 = +1/+2, failure by 5/10 = -1/-2 to diplomacy check. [The merchant will have undoubtedly spent enough time with this item to assume success, hence the static check.]
Step 2: Merchants bluff vs. your sense motive, Success by 5/10 = +1/+2, failure by 5/10 = -1/-2 to diplomacy check. [Technically speaking, you could lie too, but that would add an extra step, and we felt three was enough]
Step 3: Diplomacy vs. Diplomacy. Base trade = book value, minus the difference. This method can also be used when selling. In that case, the merchant makes the roll for step 1 with the result affecting his diplomacy check, and the base price is 65%, not book value.
Step 3.5: Charm Person adds +5 to your diplomacy check, it does not guarantee success. Just because he likes you, doesn't mean he's just going to give it away.
---standard merchants are at least 5th level experts with these skills maxed out and all three feats used for skill Focus, with cha being their high score for a base of +11 appraise, +13 bluff, +13 diplomacy.
This is a lot, and I don't expect it to appeal to everyone, but I have some pretty rules heavy players.
We use opposed Diplomacy checks, with the difference between the results being the percentage change in price. So if the PC botches and the NPC really shines, the PC could end up paying more than the item is worth.
I run (or used to run) a swashbuckling, sea-based 3.5 campaign, and the PCs would buy and sell "goods" (generic cargo for ease of play...they were primarily adventurers after all!) at different ports. The PCs have a half-elf beguiler with max ranks in Diplomacy, +6 synergy bonuses from Bluff, Knowledge nobility, and Sense Motive, +2 from being a half-elf, +3 from skill focus, +2 from negotiator, +3 from a Circlet of Persuassion, +3 from a +6 Cloak of Charisma, +3 from her natural Charisma of 16, so at 15th level, she gets a +40 to her Diplomacy rolls!!!!!!!!
So her main contribution to the party is mad loot. It's a party of 8 with a DMPC healer (I usually let another player control her), so the party can afford to have a member that is focused on being the face. She also has some nifty spells. She also has some nifty skill tricks from Complete Scoundrel.
I would go a step further and say that if you allow a roll for haggling and the character fails (or is beaten by the shop owner's roll), the PC actually pays MORE than the beginning price. The player may bark at this, but you tell him that his character was actually convinced by the store owner that the item is ov higher value (or in higher demand).
There has to be a consequence to everything...
Ultradan
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Establish an upper and lower price for the item. rule of thumb it to +/- 20% (This Vase, value 100GP has a salable value of 80-120 GP)
Have merchant make a profession: merchant roll.
* If the merchant is actively hawking start with a slightly higher initial bid 'Hey Mister! you want Vase? 130 gold!'
- If PC refuses, immeadiately jump to 120
* If PC asks about object, start with initial high price.
In either case, PC makes an counter offer, and then rolls diplomacy. He's aiming for the result of the profession check. If he bids underneath the lower amount, grant a circumstance penalty. If he fails, move the offer down by a few coins (never below base price). if he succeeds, move it down by 10%
Give the PC three attempts before the merchant settles on his 'final price'
I've found that most goods that have to be haggled for carry a vastly inflated price, and merchants are more than willing to eat into the 'profit' margin of an item. They expect it to be haggled downwards a little or a lot. It is a rare occasion for a merchant to be out of pocket though.
Batts
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I use the following formula. When trying to get a discount on a purchase, make a diplomacy check. For mundane items, the DC is 15, and every point above the DC is a 1% discount, so a roll of 30 you could buy things at 85% of book price. For magical items the DC is 15+CL of the item, same discount. When selling, same rules apply, and you can sell them for 1% above the 50% standard per point above the DC you roll.
So yes, in theory, someone with an absurd diplomacy check (+55 or so) could buy something at 50% of its market value and turn around to sell it at 100%. But since such a bonus is pretty absurd, and 20th level characters have much better things to do than spend their days haggling over a few measly gold, it's a loophole I don't bother to close.
...
I check this thread because from the title I thought it was about a new race, a half-hag: Hagling.
/sigh
Now, to answer the actual topic of this thread, for a long time I considered adding the Bargaining skill in the game.
I think that would solve the problem.
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I would go a step further and say that if you allow a roll for haggling and the character fails (or is beaten by the shop owner's roll), the PC actually pays MORE than the beginning price. The player may bark at this, but you tell him that his character was actually convinced by the store owner that the item is ov higher value (or in higher demand).
There has to be a consequence to everything...
Ultradan
I originally had that as a possible consequence to the challenge, but I couldn't think of any argument that would get me to pay more than sticker price. It's more fair that way as a game mechanic, but didn't strike me as realistic.
We had a long discussion in my game about how to handle haggling. There were so many skills that fit the bill, such as appraise, diplomacy, sense motive, and bluff. In the end, we didn't see one that encompassed the whole back and forth.Diplomacy is skill in managing negotiations and handling people so that both parties walk away satisfied leaving little or no ill will. Friendly people have a leg up in the matter, but its certainly not the defining aspect of the skill. Countries that don't like each other "haggle" all the time. BUT, that doesn't account for knowledge of value or the art BS'ing about how this sword was once used by Duke Awesome Shinypants and I can't just let it go for normal price.
The end conclusion was that it should be a skill challenge, because knowledge, negotiation, and lying all play a part. We thought about synergies, but decided that A) those have been phased out of pathfinder, and B) skill challenges seemed a little more exciting and they're "in" at the moment. Yes, we let ourselves be steered by popularity, you can take my cool card away.
Caveat: Haggling is an art form, and if your characters are haggling over every little box of trail rations or dagger, your game will quickly devolve into Andoran Pickers Roadshow the RPG. I can't stress enough that this should be considered a role playing opportunity that loses its glamor VERY fast if overused.
The skill challenge: Haggling comes down to the final diplomacy roll. The challenge follows several steps, the outcome benefiting or hindering the diplomacy roll at the end. In order to keep it from being a minor collection of rolls, this method should *only* be used during one of the rare times that you decide to role play the purchase. Perhaps because the PC's needs something to complete a quest and needs just that little bit extra to afford it. Role play each step and *then* roll. Let the group participate, either by letting different characters take point on different steps, or aiding the point character by...
I know this is an old post, but I am looking for a "complex" rule for negotiation because I have a player who seeks to expertise in commerce and negotiation.
I felt for your proposition! Thank you so much, this matches with the kind of spirit of negotiating I was looking for :-)
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Note that the rules for Individual Influence or Verbal Duels in Ultimate Intrigue will now cover haggling in a more complex manner than a single skill check.
Honestly, I let my players role play haggling if it was important to their character's background or personality, but I explained to them that for the sake of balance I'm not going to let them get significantly get above or below wealth by level, especially not one character (instead of the whole party; I can make adjustments to overall power level more easily than I can tune things between players).
All of this is to say, mechanically haggling doesn't exist in my games. When money is an important facet of a character's mechanical power, it becomes a problem to let players get too much value out of it.
Honestly, I let my players role play haggling if it was important to their character's background or personality, but I explained to them that for the sake of balance I'm not going to let them get significantly get above or below wealth by level, especially not one character (instead of the whole party; I can make adjustments to overall power level more easily than I can tune things between players).
All of this is to say, mechanically haggling doesn't exist in my games. When money is an important facet of a character's mechanical power, it becomes a problem to let players get too much value out of it.
This!
WBL is a guideline or approximation. Yes, averaging among a party will make that metric more stable so the GM can adjust rewards to maintain a desired metric or rate of growth.
As per RAW wizards should have about a 1.5*WBL due to crafting. They are also expected to share those savings with the party and expend more of their resources (for the party). Anecdotally, in two organized play formats I was asked to craft items for 50% as my PC crafted them at about 55% +XP loss. LoL.I don't believe that haggling will ever approach that level of change to WBL. So it is a tempest in a teapot.
Yes, but also no. I also don't "allow" crafting. I mean, crafting is technically allowed, you don't even need the feats, but you don't get to craft at a discount. It does give you access to items that might not otherwise be available to you when shopping.
But crafting is another thing that can let players break the game, and I just don't allow it to do that.
Ultimate Campaign has rules for bargaining
Be aware that just because one person enjoys it and wants it to be important for their character it doesn't mean that everyone else won't be sitting there bored of their skulls.
It puts so much focus on one character for too long for such minimal gain I, personally, wouldn't suggest it. Or, at the very least, it happens between sessions so that people don't feel like they wasted their time by coming to the session.
(But I don't run shopping sessions. Send me a list of what you want between sessions and I'll let you know if anything unusual happens.)