Over wisdom?
Yes. God yes. Wisdom is a trap. They fake you out with the monk class fluff making you think it's more important than it really is.
You want it high for a lot of reasons, I'll grant you that -- but when push comes to shove, you want Wisdom, but you really need Strength. (Assuming melee-focused monk.)
Isn't there some feat or magic item property that allows you to boost use wisdom modifier for to hit modifier?
Granted you still have issues with doing damage but in theory you could focus on a good to hit and then spam status effects.
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Depnds on level. Monks can have magic weapons, the other martial classes can't.Yes, and no. It's true monks treat their strikes as magical for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction, but that's pretty much where it ends. You cannot even damage incorporeal creatures with them.
Likewise, I would take a Fighter, Ranger, Barbarian, or Paladin with a stick (club or quarterstaff). Wielding a quarterstaff or club two handed, and we have 1d6+6 damage. 1d6+9 if we power attack. At 4th level, we get 1d6+12 damage due to Power Attack. If it's a fighter with Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization it's 1d6+14 damage. If it's a TWF Ranger, it's 1d6+12/1d6+9. With Double Slice, it's 1d6+12/1d6+12 (or at least 1d6+12/1d6+10).
I ran through this about three or four pages back, but the problem is the monk can totally pierce DR/Magic. No problem. The problem is, unless you focus on strength, the damage they do is very low. At 4th level, you deal 4.5 average damage on a hit with an unarmed strike. The Ranger is hitting for an average of 15.5 or 31 while using a 0 gp stick. Now even if you're fighting a creature with DR 10/Magic, the Ranger is dealing more damage per hit than the monk is. And if there's no DR involved, the ranger deals about x3 as much damage as the monk.
Likewise, a warrior's singular strikes are more potent. They're dealing around 13 damage minimum per strike, and the monk is dealing 8 damage maximum per strike. Meaning that if the monk isn't flurrying, he cannot come close to the damage at all. If the monk is flurrying, they probably can still do more damage more often.
It gets more extreme as the levels rise, because the warrior types end up with more BAB to dump into power attack. So at 20th level, the monk can hit for 2d10 (average 11 damage) per hit, while the same ranger is swinging for 1d6+15+18 per hit. The Fighter on the other hand is swinging for 1d6+15+18+5+4 per hit (due to weapon training/specialization).
So yeah, even without magic weapons...
Respectfullyn let us look at the 4th level monk who isn't gimping str.
Assuming 16 str you are doing 7.5 per attack, more with power attack.
You have 2 bonus feats, evasion, the same cmb as a full bab class, 10 extra feat of movement , and will now have another +1 to AC.
If your wis is 18 now you have 6 ki point and 8 stunning fist attempts a day.
Not to mention quarterstaffs are monk weapons too.
I agree the high dex build is fail but on the other side if you have str 2nd you can keep up with rangers aside from favored.
I agree with you that a monk that doesn't gimp strength is much, much better. It's still incapable of dealing as much damage as a warrior with strength prime (At 4th level, the warrior class will have about +12 to damage from 1.5 strength and +6 from power attack; compared to the 9.5 that the monk will with Power Attack, and as much accuracy).
However, in this very, very, veeeeeeeeeery specific case, the monk might be more appealing since the we're basically stripping everything down to "sticks and naked" for the purpose of comparison. The monk can too wield a staff, and even flurry with it, but the lower BAB holds back the heavy power attack modifiers (not even while flurrying).
But the point is, Ciretose and Dire Mongoose are right. The monk with Strength actually can hit and damage things, which makes it much more appealing as a mobile striker. At higher levels, a strength-focused monk can potentially maim some poor SoB because they get their full strength while flurrying or dual wielding (unarmed as off-hand). This means that a higher level monk can be throwing out some 9 attacks at 2d10+15 damage before power attack, which can be pretty cool.
I really don't hate monks. I kind of like 'em in fact. I just get painted as a monk hater because I'm honest about them. :P
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A monk with a Str 7? At level 1 your doing 1D6-2? When you do hit you have a 1 in 3 chance of doing 1 point of damage? So in the 5 min your fighting some one dose not roll a 20? Lets say you max out you Dex 20 Wis 18 and Dodge = AC 20. Lets look at a level 1 fighter Scale Mail 5 Dex 1 = AC 16. Fighter started with a Str 20 Con 18. Fist level + 6 to hit for both. Monk Damage 1D6-2(X2) Fighter Damage 2D6+ 7. My money is on the fighter.
AC Monks require more magic gear to keap there AC high. Then any other.
It's not monk hate it's facts.
least gear dependent class any caster.
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Over wisdom?
Yes. God yes. Wisdom is a trap. They fake you out with the monk class fluff making you think it's more important than it really is.
You want it high for a lot of reasons, I'll grant you that -- but when push comes to shove, you want Wisdom, but you really need Strength. (Assuming melee-focused monk.)
It is a +1 difference either way so fair enough.
The only high dex standard monk build that I can think of that may work would be a deadly aim shuriken Monk. But even them you are functionally giving up stunning fist, which is one of the best features of the class.
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A monk with a Str 7? At level 1 your doing 1D6-2? When you do hit you have a 1 in 3 chance of doing 1 point of damage? So in the 5 min your fighting some one dose not roll a 20? Lets say you max out you Dex 20 Wis 18 and Dodge = AC 20. Lets look at a level 1 fighter Scale Mail 5 Dex 1 = AC 16. Fighter started with a Str 20 Con 18. Fist level + 6 to hit for both. Monk Damage 1D6-2(X2) Fighter Damage 2D6+ 7. My money is on the fighter.
AC Monks require more magic gear to keap there AC high. Then any other.
It's not monk hate it's facts.
least gear dependent class any caster.
Level 1 monk with 18 wisdom and only a 12 Dex. Take dodge as the monk bonus fear and AC 16 ac with 5 stunning fists a day. Save DC for the stunning fist is 14. If I hit with a stunning fist, it's roughly 50/50 you drop your weapon.
First level is fairly moot though, since no one has magic anything.
Before I comment, I'd like to point out that I'm not being snarky at all; just genuinely curious. How popular are Locked Gauntlets in other peoples' games? They're fairly popular in mine.
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In my book, unless you are taking away points it is not a dump. "Dump" does not equal "Not Boosted". You mean equally benefited like boosting Str equally benefits characters?
Fact: Monk is a MAD class.
Fact: Str has less attributed to it than Dex. including less skills, no boost to saves or defense.
So why boost Str when as a class you can lower teh MAD issue, still remain viable and increase a stat that is much, much more in tune to what your class needs.
It is not that Dex does something specific for monk, but that monk benefits more from it that the fighter.
It is and it isn't. Dex isn't that mission critical
1st level monk with 18 wisdom has a +4 to AC, or the same as a chain shirt. Throw on Dodge (which you can take as the 1st level monk bonus feat) and you have a 15 AC before you add in any dex bonus. A 12 in Dex will take you to a respectable 16 for a first level character, which will gain an inherent bonus every 4 levels.
When you consider that the monk can wear bracers of armor later, AC isn't really an issue for the monk who focuses on Wisdom as primary and strength as secondary.
Dex is an advantage stat for monks, since if they boost it they can take full advantage of it since they have no armor penalties and get evasion early. But with the bonus to jump checks and the high saves, it isn't a "Need" as much as a "Want".
Wisdom you need for your AC and stunning fist. Strength is your damage and attack bonus.
You will notice that I only compare Str and Dex. Wis is THE stat. I personally see Dex as more important than Str since Dex is boosting much more for my character than Str ever will. For the cost of a feat you get to reduce the need for Str even a little further, so now Str is only for damage and Climb.
Damage is the important part unless you generate it from something other than Str or unless you do something else significant on-hit. And Stunning Fist isn't really significant and is limited.
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Damage is the important part unless you generate it from something other than Str or unless you do something else significant on-hit. And Stunning Fist isn't really significant and is limited.
Limited by what? You do full damage when you use it. There is no penalty for using it, and you get it a number of times a day equal to your level plus your wisdom modifier.
If it works, you have immobilized your enemy for a round and made them drop everything they are carrying. If it doesn't work, you still got the same attack you would have gotten otherwise, with no penalty other than the lost attempt, which you have a ton of per day.
It's win/win, with a fairly high save against it.
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Before I comment, I'd like to point out that I'm not being snarky at all; just genuinely curious. How popular are Locked Gauntlets in other peoples' games? They're fairly popular in mine.i have never seen anyone buy/use them. Ever.
Not common in my game either. Glove slots tend to be used for other things, and quick draw is common for martial classes.
I think he means limited insofar as there is a crapton of stuff that's immune to it, including (but not limited to) all constructs, plants, oozes, and undead; and that you have to hit, and they have to fail a save, and it targets the save that tends to be the beefiest in the game for creatures vulnerable to the stunning fist (stuff like undead and constructs don't have good fortitude saves, usually, but they don't care).
Before I comment, I'd like to point out that I'm not being snarky at all; just genuinely curious. How popular are Locked Gauntlets in other peoples' games? They're fairly popular in mine.
Weapon cord is more popular among our group, but that may have more to do with the cost differential.
Limited by what? You do full damage when you use it. There is no penalty for using it, and you get it a number of times a day equal to your level plus your wisdom modifier.
Full damage of 5 if you don't work Strength and the number of times is fine unless you stop to think it only lasts one round, assuming your target isn't immune and won't pass your really easy Fort save.
You will notice that I only compare Str and Dex. Wis is THE stat. I personally see Dex as more important than Str since Dex is boosting much more for my character than Str ever will. For the cost of a feat you get to reduce the need for Str even a little further, so now Str is only for damage and Climb.
But saying that STR is only for damage is kind of like saying that your eyes are only for seeing, and how important is that?
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Full damage of 5 if you don't work Strength and the number of times is fine unless you stop to think it only lasts one round, assuming your target isn't immune and won't pass your really easy Fort save.
Limited by what? You do full damage when you use it. There is no penalty for using it, and you get it a number of times a day equal to your level plus your wisdom modifier.
Easy fort save?
It is 10 + 1/2 level + Wisdom.
And we already discussed that Str is either the primary or secondary score, with Dex probably 4th.
Every dedicated Stunning Fist monk should definitely take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to increase the save DC by +2.
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A monk with a Str 7? At level 1 your doing 1D6-2? When you do hit you have a 1 in 3 chance of doing 1 point of damage? So in the 5 min your fighting some one dose not roll a 20? Lets say you max out you Dex 20 Wis 18 and Dodge = AC 20. Lets look at a level 1 fighter Scale Mail 5 Dex 1 = AC 16. Fighter started with a Str 20 Con 18. Fist level + 6 to hit for both. Monk Damage 1D6-2(X2) Fighter Damage 2D6+ 7. My money is on the fighter.
AC Monks require more magic gear to keap there AC high. Then any other.
It's not monk hate it's facts.
least gear dependent class any caster.
Level 1 monk with 18 wisdom and only a 12 Dex. Take dodge as the monk bonus fear and AC 16 ac with 5 stunning fists a day. Save DC for the stunning fist is 14. If I hit with a stunning fist, it's roughly 50/50 you drop your weapon.
First level is fairly moot though, since no one has magic anything.
How do you hit your target? To land the stunning blow. Thats the crux of the Wis base Monk. You still have to hit your target to force the save...
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A monk with a Str 7? At level 1 your doing 1D6-2? When you do hit you have a 1 in 3 chance of doing 1 point of damage? So in the 5 min your fighting some one dose not roll a 20? Lets say you max out you Dex 20 Wis 18 and Dodge = AC 20. Lets look at a level 1 fighter Scale Mail 5 Dex 1 = AC 16. Fighter started with a Str 20 Con 18. Fist level + 6 to hit for both. Monk Damage 1D6-2(X2) Fighter Damage 2D6+ 7. My money is on the fighter.
AC Monks require more magic gear to keap there AC high. Then any other.
It's not monk hate it's facts.
least gear dependent class any caster.
Level 1 monk with 18 wisdom and only a 12 Dex. Take dodge as the monk bonus fear and AC 16 ac with 5 stunning fists a day. Save DC for the stunning fist is 14. If I hit with a stunning fist, it's roughly 50/50 you drop your weapon.
First level is fairly moot though, since no one has magic anything.
How do you hit your target? To land the stunning blow. Thats the crux of the Wis base Monk. You still have to hit your target to force the save...
Wis primary, Str secondary. 18 Wis (with bump) and 16 Str. Dump Int and Charisma, Con and Dex do what you can but not as important.
In game, I usually use stunning fist when charging, or flanking, or when lucky enough, both.
My preferred monk two step is move in and stun, then flurry, with the first attack stunning.
Cost is basically nothing, benefit if it works is great.
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But saying that STR is only for damage is kind of like saying that your eyes are only for seeing, and how important is that?You will notice that I only compare Str and Dex. Wis is THE stat. I personally see Dex as more important than Str since Dex is boosting much more for my character than Str ever will. For the cost of a feat you get to reduce the need for Str even a little further, so now Str is only for damage and Climb.
LOL..oh please...how twisted of a comparison...Str: Attack Bonus, Damage Bonus, Climb skill...One feat later and teh Attack Bonus is transferred to Dex...
So what is left...Climb skill..this is certainly not more important than teh 2 skills that Dex covers...
Now your issue is that I think that the damage potential is a lesser feature...and it is...I feel that avoiding damage is at least as important as dealing damage...and Dex helps you avoid damage both through the AC bonus you get to 2 of your defenses and through the bonus you get to your reflex save (which increases your chance to completely avoid damage on a successful save due to evasion/improved evasion), and this is not even including the bonus to your CMD. And Dex adds to initiative as a nice benefit.
Is damage important? Yeah. Sure. there is alot riding on it. I just do not think that it beats all the benefits that a high Dex gives.
Now your issue is that I think that the damage potential is a lesser feature...and it is...I feel that avoiding damage is at least as important as dealing damage
... except that AC basically falls out of the game entirely for most characters in the midlevels, assuming you face something besides hordes of useless mooks.
A 1 modifier advantage in STR adds damage to every hit you do.
A 1 modifier advantage in DEX lets you avoid being hit 1 in 20 times. Assuming it's an attack that targets AC (and most of the scariest ones don't), that they aren't already hitting you on a 2 or better, and that avoiding damage actually gets you something in this particular case. The black dragon is mauling the crap out of your party's rogue? I'm sure he's grateful your AC is higher.
(And if my STR monk decides he really cares about his AC? He'll spend the feat you're burning on Finesse on Dodge. Not that he'd do that.)
I've seen a lot of lower-STR higher-DEX finesse monks in play -- what tends to happen, terrain permitting (and it usually is) is that, given a GM who isn't going out of his way to make you feel good about yourself, enemies just ignore them and target the real threats. God, you're making me sound like CoDZilla, but there it is -- no enemy can take a low STR monk seriously.
Every dedicated Stunning Fist monk should definitely take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to increase the save DC by +2.If the DM allows of course. Monster feats and such.
Monster feats do not have any special restriction of being NPC-only. There are merely noted as monster feats because generally only monsters qualify. For example, Improved Natural Attack requires you to have a natural weapon. Most humanoid races don't have this.
Improved Natural Armor requires you to have at least a +1 natural armor bonus. Most humanoid races don't.
The various spell-like ability feats are only useful to creatures with spell-like abilities, which means maybe rogues (minor and major magic talents) and gnomes.
Ability Focus is the easiest to qualify for most PCs, because it can apply to any of the following: Bardic Music, Death Attack, Channel Energy, Master Strike, Breath Weapon, Stunning Fist, etc.
Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
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Limited by what? You do full damage when you use it. There is no penalty for using it, and you get it a number of times a day equal to your level plus your wisdom modifier.
If it works, you have immobilized your enemy for a round and made them drop everything they are carrying. If it doesn't work, you still got the same attack you would have gotten otherwise, with no penalty other than the lost attempt, which you have a ton of per day.
It's win/win, with a fairly high save against it.
whoah whoah, let's focus here people.
A monk may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.
a first level monk gets 1 attempt per day. let's lay it out real simple.
assume a monk that manages to get both an 18 wis and an 18 in the primary attack stat, whether it be dex or str.
assume an opponent with a 15 AC and a +3 fort save. monk hits on 11 or better. opponent saves on 11 or better. this is 50% chance on both counts.
this means every 2 times the monk attempts a stunning fist, he hits once. every 2 succesful hits, the opponent only fails its save once. you only get one attempt per day. that means, on average, you only stun something every 4th day.
now if you've made dex your primary attack stat and put str down to 10, you're doing an average of 3.5 damage on a succesful hit. if you can't flurry this equates to 1.75 damage per round, or 4 rounds minimum to kill a first level mage, if you can flurry your average damage goes up 3.15 damage a round, which means you need two full rounds of flurrying at least to take out a lvl 1 mage.
these numbers slightly more than double if you make str your attack stat. which means you can pretty reliably take a mage out if you get to flurry.
now the problem with boosting wis is that we're talking about a game with no magic items expected. this means you have no way to expect to be able...
My mistake on amount (not sure where I got that from, might have been up the thread, Most of my observation is from others running at my table) but you are talking about 1st level where magic items are moot and having a stun work is functionally combat over.
Magic items don't really come into play until around 3rd level, and not with any real significance until 4th.
At 4th Ki pool comes into play, which can be a 3rd attack, a +4 bonus to ac, or +20 movement (on top of the +10 from 4th, effectively making you double movement) which is also wisdom based.
I agree 100% strength should be right there with Wisdom, but considering the AC bonus in addition to the monk abilities, in addition to the number of skills effected by wisdom, I would put it slightly ahead.
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Every dedicated Stunning Fist monk should definitely take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) to increase the save DC by +2.If the DM allows of course. Monster feats and such.Monster feats do not have any special restriction of being NPC-only. There are merely noted as monster feats because generally only monsters qualify. For example, Improved Natural Attack requires you to have a natural weapon. Most humanoid races don't have this.
Improved Natural Armor requires you to have at least a +1 natural armor bonus. Most humanoid races don't.
The various spell-like ability feats are only useful to creatures with spell-like abilities, which means maybe rogues (minor and major magic talents) and gnomes.
Ability Focus is the easiest to qualify for most PCs, because it can apply to any of the following: Bardic Music, Death Attack, Channel Energy, Master Strike, Breath Weapon, Stunning Fist, etc.
Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Huh. Good find. Thanks.
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Before I comment, I'd like to point out that I'm not being snarky at all; just genuinely curious. How popular are Locked Gauntlets in other peoples' games? They're fairly popular in mine.
It's inversely proportional to how popular Heat Metal is... ;)
But more seriously, the inability to drop something is seen as a hideous disadvantage in most games I play - the amount of times PCs need to do stuff like try to grab onto a ledge when they're booted into an 'orrible void, try to catch the princess when she faints, or a myriad of other circumstances, you generally don't want to be locking stuff in your hands (with a heavy shield as well you're basically wearing oversized mittens!)...
Monster feats do not have any special restriction of being NPC-only.
Not generally (unless the DM says so), but...
Pathfinder RPG Bestiary
Animal Companions: dire bat, ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus,
elasmosaurus, pteranodon, stegosaurus, triceratops, tyrannosaurus,
dolphin, orca, electric eel, moray eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin
dog, aurochs, hyena, monitor lizard, octopus, dire rat, rhinoceros,
roc, and squid; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131-133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play
... so not in Society games.
Before I comment, I'd like to point out that I'm not being snarky at all; just genuinely curious. How popular are Locked Gauntlets in other peoples' games? They're fairly popular in mine.
My player learned to make a good use of them. For a good use I mean "not locked all the time".
One note: my players prefer indeed str focused monks for a number of reasons. nevertheless, you have chance to target weaker saves post-APG. Think about things like touch of serenity.
... so not in Society games.
Then they should really stop adding features that would open up monster feats to be applied to PCs.
Not generally (unless the DM says so), but...
... so not in Society games.Pathfinder RPG Bestiary
Animal Companions: dire bat, ankylosaurus, brachiosaurus,
elasmosaurus, pteranodon, stegosaurus, triceratops, tyrannosaurus,
dolphin, orca, electric eel, moray eel, elephant/mastodon, frog, goblin
dog, aurochs, hyena, monitor lizard, octopus, dire rat, rhinoceros,
roc, and squid; Familiars: all familiars listed on pages 131-133; Feats: none of the feats are legal for play
Does this mean you can't take them on an Eidolon?
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... except that AC basically falls out of the game entirely for most characters in the midlevels, assuming you face something besides hordes of useless mooks.
I keep hearing this but never see it.
A 1 modifier advantage in STR adds damage to every hit you do.
A 1 modifier advantage in DEX lets you avoid being hit 1 in 20 times. Assuming it's an attack that targets AC (and most of the scariest ones don't), that they aren't already hitting you on a 2 or better, and that avoiding damage actually gets you something in this particular case. The black dragon is mauling the crap out of your party's rogue? I'm sure he's grateful your AC is higher.
(And if my STR monk decides he really cares about his AC? He'll spend the feat you're burning on Finesse on Dodge. Not that he'd do that.)
For that one feat I have improved my AC, and various defensive capabilities along with my ability to hit to deal damage and status effects.
And I, again, hear all about this hit on a 2 always stuff. I do not see it. Level appropriate enemies are not hitting on a 2. What am I missing here. Show me.
God, you're making me sound like CoDZilla, but there it is -- no enemy can take a low STR monk seriously.
If you start sounding like him then you now you are doing something wrong, his values on the game are warped.
And I, again, hear all about this hit on a 2 always stuff. I do not see it. Level appropriate enemies are not hitting on a 2. What am I missing here. Show me.
Well, let's start with this: pick a level of monk. Let's say something in the mid teens just for kicks. Tell me what you think a reasonable AC for a monk is at that level; if possible, break down how much of his feats / stat points / wealth you're dedicating to it. Then I'll show you how the kind of stuff he can reasonably expect to encounter (again, assuming you don't have the kind of GM who's in love of throwing 20 weak enemies at you in every combat and never a few or a single strong enemy) doesn't have much problem hitting it.
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Well, let's start with this: pick a level of monk. Let's say something in the mid teens just for kicks. Tell me what you think a reasonable AC for a monk is at that level; if possible, break down how much of his feats / stat points / wealth you're dedicating to it. Then I'll show you how the kind of stuff he can reasonably expect to encounter (again, assuming you don't have the kind of GM who's in love of throwing 20 weak enemies at you in every combat and never a few or a single strong enemy) doesn't have much problem hitting it.And I, again, hear all about this hit on a 2 always stuff. I do not see it. Level appropriate enemies are not hitting on a 2. What am I missing here. Show me.
Just give up some builds or some monster names because when I see that I can reasonably get an AC that requires equal level monsters to need a 13ish it certainly begs to question, what are you thinking of that there is an 11 differential in the number needed to hit.
So how about for levels 11, 15 and 20?
I just keep hearing the claims but it is so far from my experience and even looking through the books I cannot see how it is possible.
Well, let's start with this:...And I, again, hear all about this hit on a 2 always stuff....
How about 10th level. You are up against a blue dragon. An APL+3 Epic dragon encounter.
Melee bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
The beast has a 36 AC and 184 HP.
If you fail the DC 21 save vs fear, you will be shaken, and the dragon can do nasty things to you.
Also there are going to be DC 23, 12d8 breath weapons going off every 1d4 rounds.
10th Level example:
Fighter, AC=29
S 21 D 14 Co 16 I 10 W 13 Ch 10
AC=29 (10+11plate+3dex+2deflect+2NA+1Dodge feat.)
Standard Character - 62,000gp.
+2 Full Plate 6000
+1 Composite (+5) longbow - 3000
+1 Shortsword - 2000
+1 Acid Greatsword - 8000
Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2 - 4,000
Belt of Physical might Str +2, Con +2, - 10000
Amulet of natural armor +2 - 8000
Cloak of resistance +3 - 9000
Ring of Protection +2 - 8000
58K With 4,000 left over for cold iron and silver weapons, potions, and various other consumables.
While the bite hits on a 6, by the time you get to the wings and tail, you need a 9. If this fighter takes out a magic tower shield, and the druid casts barkskin, the AC is going up to 37. If the dragon was power attacking, it won't anymore. Fight defensively with a few ranks in acrobatics, and you got a 40 (Total Defense 43). Now the dragon is going for top 20% with the bite, and is just rolling for 20's with some attacks.
And that is one feat, a Dex of 14 and no AC items better then +2 at 10th level. If you built this guy for AC, he could be rocking a 40 AC without much sacrifice.
I think the monk would be a little tough to get an AC up like that without blowing ki points every round, but then again, if you aren't using key in an APL+3 dragon encounter, you probably never will.
I took my level 11 monk and just easily got an AC over 30 (34 to be exact) and still have almost 20k (18k to be exact) gp to spare and have yet to use a Ki point or get buffs.
The first thing is, break down the AC and what it took you to get it -- because there's such a thing as "an AC you can reach, but the price is too high." For example: what do you do if the dragon just doesn't land and strafes you from the air? A level 11 character should have had an answer to that for several levels already; one that jacks up his AC at the cost of not having an answer to that question is probably dead without AC even getting involved. (In which case the money spent on AC wasn't worth it, right?)
Second: Okay, level 11, so let's look at CR 14 monsters straight out of the bestiary without even trying to get creative (although if I were your GM I would get creative, and that gets worse for AC): take something like the trumpet archon (first thing I looked at), give it its generic standard-issue prep spells in the stat block (better choices are easy, but...), and its full attack is something like: +33/+33/+28/+23. So there you've spent most of your WBL and who knows what else so it can hit you on a 2, 2, 6, and 11, and the 2s are just because a natural 1 misses. If any of its standard treasure is useful to it in any way, that's going to get worse.
Something like the adult red dragon is maybe better for the monk, in that if you assume all of its treasure is useless to it (it wouldn't be, but let's pretend) it's needing to roll 8s to hit the monk... but then you figure that its AC is 38 and you probably need to roll a whole lot higher than an 8 to hit that.
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call me crazy, but i don't think +3 ac and 3 ki points is worth half damage at level 16.
And the save DC on Stunning fist is is 3 higher, which at 16 means the save DC on his save or die is 3 higher.
3 Ki points also means an extra Abundant Step a day, or Wholeness of body.
I agree it is close, and I think we all agree Dex doesn't come close.
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I took my level 11 monk and just easily got an AC over 30 (34 to be exact) and still have almost 20k (18k to be exact) gp to spare and have yet to use a Ki point or get buffs.
The first thing is, break down the AC and what it took you to get it -- because there's such a thing as "an AC you can reach, but the price is too high." For example: what do you do if the dragon just doesn't land and strafes you from the air? A level 11 character should have had an answer to that for several levels already; one that jacks up his AC at the cost of not having an answer to that question is probably dead without AC even getting involved. (In which case the money spent on AC wasn't worth it, right?)
Second: Okay, level 11, so let's look at CR 14 monsters straight out of the bestiary without even trying to get creative (although if I were your GM I would get creative, and that gets worse for AC): take something like the trumpet archon (first thing I looked at), give it its generic standard-issue prep spells in the stat block (better choices are easy, but...), and its full attack is something like: +33/+33/+28/+23. So there you've spent most of your WBL and who knows what else so it can hit you on a 2, 2, 6, and 11, and the 2s are just because a natural 1 misses. If any of its standard treasure is useful to it in any way, that's going to get worse.
Something like the adult red dragon is maybe better for the monk, in that if you assume all of its treasure is useless to it (it wouldn't be, but let's pretend) it's needing to roll 8s to hit the monk... but then you figure that its AC is 38 and you probably need to roll a whole lot higher than an 8 to hit that.
Lets go with an honest monk that is similar to angryscrubs, staying at 11th since that is where we are at. I don't know why 11th (they get another +1 to ac at 12) but we'll go with it. And let's assume no magic items to start with. And we'll do the high Wis/strength don't worry about dex build.
Wisdom is going to be at least 20 (if you started with 18, put in there twice), so that is +5 there, and another +2 inherent, same as Splintmail. That 20 Wisdom doesn't assume any magic weapons, or even a Wis focused build, but I'll stick with it.
I'm not a big dex person, so lets just say you have a 12 and make that a +1. You will probably have items but let's just stick with that and I'm up to an 18 AC before I buy any magic items at all. And again, I get another +1 to AC next level and all of the above is also applied to touch AC.
Any type of wisdom modifier is going to up AC. Same with any Dex modifier. I can wear bracers of armor, which cost the same as armor enhancements, and I can wear rings, just like anyone else.
So at 11th level I'm functionally wearing Splint mail armor, with no armor check, movement, or dex penalties, at no additional cost, and next level the armor bump makes it functionally half-plate. Full plate at 16 (assuming I stop pumping wisdom and switch to Strength) and above full plate at 20th.
Bracers only go up to +8, rather than the +10 for regular armor, but otherwise I can use all of the same boosts everyone else has access to. More actually since any dex boost I get doesn't go up against any Armor penalties.
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Well, let's start with this:...And I, again, hear all about this hit on a 2 always stuff....
How about 10th level. You are up against a blue dragon. An APL+3 Epic dragon encounter.
Melee bite +23 (2d8+12), 2 claws +22 (2d6+8), 2 wings +20 (1d8+4), tail slap +20 (2d6+12)Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft. (15 ft. with bite)
The beast has a 36 AC and 184 HP.
If you fail the DC 21 save vs fear, you will be shaken, and the dragon can do nasty things to you.
Also there are going to be DC 23, 12d8 breath weapons going off every 1d4 rounds.10th Level example:
Fighter, AC=29
** spoiler omitted **While the bite hits on a 6, by the time you get to the wings and tail, you need a 9. If this fighter takes out a magic tower shield, and the druid casts barkskin, the AC is going up to 37. If the dragon was power attacking, it won't anymore. Fight defensively with a few ranks in acrobatics, and you got a 40 (Total Defense 43). Now the dragon is going for top 20% with the bite, and is just rolling for 20's with some attacks.
And that is one feat, a Dex of 14 and no AC items better then +2 at 10th level. If you built this guy for AC, he could be rocking a 40 AC without much sacrifice.
I think the monk would be a little tough to get an AC up like that without blowing ki points every round, but then again, if you aren't using key in an APL+3 dragon encounter, you probably never will.
I'll make it easy and have the same equipment for the monk (swapping the full plate for +2 Bracer.
You have a +3 dex, but your dex is 14, so I am confused. You should be 28 I think.
Assuming 20 Wisdom at 10th without enhancement, AC will be
10 + 6 (wis as you have a +2 wis 16) + 2 (inherent 18) +2 (bracers 20)+ 2 (ring 22) + 2 Natural (24) +1 (dodge, as a monk feat +1)
So 25 without adding Dex, which seems a point of debate. Adding either 1 or 2 from dex takes it to either 26 or 27, or two or 3 behind your fighter with the same equipment.
Now I don't need the 1500 from full plate, or the 13000 for magic weapons, so I've got 14500 to play with. I'm going to use 6,000 of that to upgrade that belt to a belt of physical perfection, so I get a +2 to dex.
Now if I had a 12 dex, I've got a 14 (or 16 if I had a 14) and so I'm at either 27 or 28, either the same or one behind your fighter, with 8500 left to spend on maybe a temple sword or something.
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And the save DC on Stunning fist is is 3 higher, which at 16 means the save DC on his save or die is 3 higher.
3 Ki points also means an extra Abundant Step a day, or Wholeness of body.
I agree it is close, and I think we all agree Dex doesn't come close.
yes, but the save DC doesn't matter because his to hit is lower. the math works out to exactly the same average chance to stun.
50% chance to hit x 35% chance to stun = 35% chance to hit x 50% chance to stun
now if you could decide whether or not to use stunning fist after you knew if your hit was successful, that would make a huge difference, but you can't, so there is no difference mathematically in the effectiveness of your stunning fist if you raise str or you raise wis. or dex, to be honest.
Or if you use the stunning fist on charges or when flanking (which is generally when I use it, as you charge on the first attack with a stunning fist) you get the bonuses.
Obviously it works both ways, as you get the bonus as a Str monk as well, but it depends on your party roll. If you are going to be the tank by default, go str. If you are the mobile fighter/mage neutralizer/flanking buddy the calculation is different.
I generally play my monk as the later. Personal preference is the division on this one I think.
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The first thing is, break down the AC and what it took you to get it -- because there's such a thing as "an AC you can reach, but the price is too high." For example: what do you do if the dragon just doesn't land and strafes you from the air? A level 11 character should have had an answer to that for several levels already; one that jacks up his AC at the cost of not having an answer to that question is probably dead without AC even getting involved. (In which case the money spent on AC wasn't worth it, right?)
Like I said I have 18k gp still to spend. I am not fleshing out a full PC to satisfy any and every situation. Kinda like you are taking an +3 level encounter to try and make a point. Your encounter is more like the Ultimate End Encounter of an AP (these generally run to about 13-15th level) , not the average encounters used during a campaign (equal level enounters for the most part). A little leeway is given and taken.
AC: 10+ 2 AC bonus+ 7 Wis (18 start, +2 level boost, +4 headband)+ 5 Dex (16 start, +4 Belt)+ 2 Nat Armor+ 4 Bracers+ 2 Deflection+ 1 Dodge= 33EDIT: I mixed my levels, I used a +3 AC bonus @ 11th when the monk gets it @ 12. Apologies.
Second: Okay, level 11, so let's look at CR 14 monsters straight out of the bestiary without even trying to get creative (although if I were your GM I would get creative, and that gets worse for AC): take something like the trumpet archon (first thing I looked at), give it its generic standard-issue prep spells in the stat block (better choices are easy, but...), and its full attack is something like: +33/+33/+28/+23. So there you've spent most of your WBL and who knows what else so it can hit you on a 2, 2, 6, and 11, and the 2s are just because a natural 1 misses. If any of its standard treasure is useful to it in any way, that's going to get worse.
Ok lets break what you did down, for many DMs are going to use the monsters as written inthe books and not change the monsters up.
You used It's Buff spells...Divine Favor (+3 LUCK bonus to attack), Bull Str(translated+2 enhancement to attack), Aid or Bless (+1 morale to attack), Divine Power (+4 LUCK bonus to attack).Two of your spells do not stack. I will assume that you keep the Divine Power. Drop your attack bonus by 3. 30/30/25/20. And I have not used my boosts. So needs a 3 on its best attacks and gets worse. Granted about what you said, just skewed it a way.
If any of it's gear works for it to boost its attack that also increases the difficulty rating of the encounter, so the CR 14 is now a CR 15. Minor nitpick i know but I had to mention it.
Something like the adult red dragon is maybe better for the monk, in that if you assume all of its treasure is useless to it (it wouldn't be, but let's pretend) it's needing to roll 8s to hit the monk... but then you figure that its AC is 38 and you probably need to roll a whole lot higher than an 8 to hit that.
Yeah. Not much i can say about that huh. Even the fighter is gonna have a tough time with hitting that guy, let alone ANY non-full BAB PC. Figure he needs a 14-ish (11bab, 6 str, 3 weapon, 2 feat, 2 weapon train) to hit. The party itself just needs to get a way around the beast's defenses. Which I am sure the party is not just bumbling into a Dragon's lair by accident.
Yup there is a reasion that fight would be the last encounter to complete an AP.
... except that AC basically falls out of the game entirely for most characters in the midlevels, assuming you face something besides hordes of useless mooks.
That's a common claim, that I will have to say fails in my experience. At high levels, maybe, but in mid levels, hell no.
I will use my PFS character as a reference. He is built for AC. AT 10th level his AC is 35. If you compare what he has to his RAW wealth by level he is actually about 16k short on gold. In truth I could have built him for even more AC if I tried, but 35 has served me pretty well. Though if we're going to go with wealth per level, I should have a 37. I don't even have combat expertise on the build, which I should have if I really were AC focused. I would be able to get a 40 AC in that instance.
If you just take a look at CR 10 critters, the majority have a to hit of around +19. That means I get hit on a 16+ which thus avoid 75% of incoming damage in melee.
Sure, if you are looking at a CR 13 encounter, it gets a bit uglier. That blue dragon adult will smack me on a 12 oh his bite, and the other attacks are a bit less likely to hit. If I had by proper WBL with the 37 AC, I'd only be hit on a 14, which really isn't bad at all.
An ice devil with its +21 spear only hits on a 14 (16).
Old White Dragon hits me on a 10(12).
Worst of the bunch is the Iron Golem which will be smashing me into goo on a 7(9) at his +28.
But then again a +3 encounter is supposed to be able to beat me handily. In my experience it is rare that an encounter will be a single +3 CR critter. More commonly you will have a +2 and lackeys, or a number of equal CRs (3 CR 10s for EL 13).
The way his AC actually plays in modules is that he's afraid of spell casters, not hand to hand threats (or even ranged shooters). Mind you I have not actually played him at 10th, as he just leveled to there. He was AC 35 as of 9th level.
... except that AC basically falls out of the game entirely for most characters in the midlevels, assuming you face something besides hordes of useless mooks.That's a common claim, that I will have to say fails in my experience. At high levels, maybe, but in mid levels, hell no.
I will use my PFS character as a reference. He is built for AC.
You just tossed yourself out of the "relevant anecdotal evidence" with that last sentence. One should bloody well hope that a character built for high AC manages to make AC matter in mid to high levels. The vast majority of characters aren't going to be created as meat shields though.
You just tossed yourself out of the "relevant anecdotal evidence" with that last sentence. One should bloody well hope that a character built for high AC manages to make AC matter in mid to high levels. The vast majority of characters aren't going to be created as meat shields though.
Ok, I should have stated it as "I didn't blow off AC like most people" since my character also does very solid damage, and would never be ignored as a threat by anything he faces.
He hits at a +22/+17 1d8+12 17-20 x3 (yes, I cheesed and used the falcata). Power attack is at +19/+14 1d8+18. If something is dumb enough to worry about someone besides me, they die fast. He's no meat shield. He's a killer, and nobody who he's played with would deny his effectiveness.
But in spite of that, did you even read the whole post? I'm down by 16K GP in WBL. I didn't even go with combat expertise to maximize AC. There are several tricks I could have done to increase AC. Between proper WBL, and some real fixation on AC, I could easily have six more points than I do right now. If I had a 41 AC nothing would be touching me at CR 10, and even CR 13 would be having issues.
However I have a reasonable AC for a sword and board fighter who doesn't blow it off and it serves me quite well.