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In addition to fewer spells, any spells that require a save are going to be weaker for Summoners due to the lower spell level. Dominate Monster is going to have a save DC 3 lower than one cast by a comparable wizard or sorcerer.
Also 4th level wands made by Summoners are going to be 9000 gp more expensive than ones made by Wizards.
Kalyth, you'll see this present on most of the "limited" casters. They are, for all intents and purposes, designed to be casting classes. They have full caster levels, cantrips/orisons, and access to a wide variety of magic that's roughly on par with the other "true" casters. What they lack, however, is spellcasting stamina. True casters are capable of throwing down spell after spell (for the most part) and are built to utilize spellcasting as a primary weapon in combat.
Limited casters (bard, inquisitor, summmoner, alchemist) don't have enough spells at their disposal to really match what a true caster can do. Often they need to mix spellcasting with the plethora of other features their class provides, often weapon fighting or similar magical effects.
One word: metamagic. Summoner is much much more limited in terms of metamagicing things up
One word: metamagic. Summoner is much much more limited in terms of metamagicing things up
Good point. Though I think the OP is right about it being clunky.
I agree, the summoner gives me a kneejerk reaction too, so does the inquisitor actually though that seems balanced a bit better on first glance.
- spells should have an inate spell level and level requirement to create potions, wands, scrolls and other spelltrigger items. Personally I'd just houserule it as being made by a wizard / cleric / bard in that order unless it is a spell not on those lists.
- potions of dimension door and fireshield can't be made, because they are personal spells.
- I like the thematic restrictions of the summoner, I much rather see magic-users restricted by theme with a limited spell list as a restriction to rampant magic supremacy. Though I have to say paizo made great improvements on the part of flavor with magic users, though I still think flavor is a bit too optional.
It is done for theme.
Take a closer looks at bards
Irresistible Dance - Sorcerer/Wizard 8 vs Bard 6
Mass Charm Monster - Sorcerer/Wizard 8 vs Bard 6
Greater Shout - Sorcerer/Wizard 8 vs Bard 6
Those are all normally 8th level wizard spells, but a bard gets them as level 6 spells because they fit the bard theme(dancing/charming/sonic damage), and those are just the level 6 bards spells from the core rulebook. If you look, you will see that the bard gets early access to a lot of spells that fit in the the Bard theme. In some cases, there are even spells that the bard has, that no other caster can get(see Glibness). Bards have been like this since 3.5. The new classes in the AGP are just following in the bard's footsteps.
Also, if you take a look at Clerics/Druids/Sorcerers/Wizards, you will see some cases of certain classes getting the same spell at a lower level because theme. IE Flame Strike is level 5 for clerics, level 4 for druids, and not available to sorcerers or wizards. Thus, a druid can make a wand of Flame Strike, but a cleric cannot....
Finally, if you look at when the limited classes get their spells. A Bard or Summoner doesn't get access to level 6 spells until level 16. A full caster gets access to level 8 spells at level 15(or 16 if they are a spontaneous caster). The summoner gets 2 level 6 spells known at level 6 where the sorcerer gets 3 level 8 spells known at level 16. In a lot of cases, the full casters still gets access to these spells before the summoner does, and/or have access to more spells than the limited casters do.
While I understand the general idea Charender, my biggest issue with the summoner is the spells they chose to drop down a level.
Daze Monster (enchantment) Normally 2nd, summoner 1st
Haste (transmutation) Normally 3rd, summoner 2nd
Slow (transmutation) Normally 3rd, summoner 2nd
Wind Wall (evocation) Normally 3rd(ranger 2nd), summoner 2nd
Charm Monster (enchantment) Bard 3, wizard 4, summoner 3rd
Enlarge Person, Mass (transmutation) normally 4, summoner 3rd
Fire Shield (evocation) Normally 4(alchemist 4), summoner 3rd
Greater Invisibility (illusion) Always 4th, Summoner 3rd
Stoneskin (abjuration) At least 4th (even for 6sl casters), summoner 3rd
Wall of Fire (evocation) wizard 4/druid 5, summoner 3rd
Wall of Ice (evocation) wizard 4, summoner 3rd
Baleful polymorph (transmutation) wizard 5, summoner 4th
Mass Stat booster (transmutation) always 6th, summoner 4th
Overland Flight (transmutation) wizard 5th, summoner 4th
Wall of Stone (conjuration) at least 5th level, summoner 4th
Ethereal Jaunt (transmutation) always 7th, summoner 5th
Invisibility, Mass (illusion) wizard 7th, summoner 5th
Repulsion (abjuration) at least 6th, summoner 5th
Sequester (abjuration) wizard 7th, summoner 5th
Simulacrum (illusion) wizard 7th, summoner 5th
Spell Turning (abjuration) wizard 7th, summoner 5th
Wall of Iron (conjuration) wizard 6th, summoner 5th
Charm Monster, Mass (enchantment) wizard 8th, bard 6th, summoner 6th
Dominate Monster (enchantment) wizard 9th ([b]not even a bard spell), summoner 6th[/b]
Protection from spells (abjuration) wizard 8th, summoner 6th
Sympathy/antipathy (abjuration) wizard 8th,druid 9th, summoner 6th
Spells that are bolded are spells that the summoner receives before anyone else can cast them.
These spells are received at lower level than other casters that should be better than the summoner at them. They have little reason to even be on a conjuration/summoning specialist's list, nevermind sooner than anyone else can cast them.
On spells like teleport, or summon monster I can understand why the summoner might get them at earlier levels, but most of these spells probably shouldn't even be on a summoner's list, let alone sooner than someone else should gets them. It makes no sense to me that a summoner can daze monster before an enchanter or bard can. it makes no sense to me that the bard doesn't have dominate monster, but the summoner does. Why should the summoner get haste before a wizard does, nevermind before the magus or bard does. What is seek thoughts even doing on the summoner list?
The list reads like, "Spells that are really good at earlier levels" instead of a "summoning specialist that receives a special companion too in addition to spell like abilities" list.
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Well rather judging things by what spell level they receive it at, try judging it by what character level they receive the spells at. Should the summoner have to wait until 16th level to receive mass stat boost? When you put it in those terms, the summoner doesn't receive any spells earlier than 1 level faster than wiz (exception to daze monster). If you look at the list on the whole, it is mostly buffs and some BC.
<list>Well rather judging things by what spell level they receive it at, try judging it by what character level they receive the spells at. Should the summoner have to wait until 16th level to receive mass stat boost? When you put it in those terms, the summoner doesn't receive any spells earlier than 1 level faster than wiz (exception to daze monster). If you look at the list on the whole, it is mostly buffs and some BC.
I did take into account the fact that some of those spells don't come earlier than the other casters get them. In several places I listed when a different full casting class got the spell later than the summoner too (druid does in several places).
Also 1 level earlier for most those spells is 1 level earlier too early. Again I'm not going to handwave away caster level 5 wizard getting haste compared to caster level 4 summoner getting it. That makes a huge difference in combat and is a huge spell.
I honestly don't care that some of the list is buffing spells -- the guy isn't a transmutation specialist, he isn't a buffing specialist, he is a summoning specialist. I left alone the easy choices like teleport, summon monster, and dimension door because they at least match concept.
Dominate Monster, Simulacrum, mass charm monster, sympathy, wall of fire, overland flight, slow, stoneskin, and fire shield though? These shouldn't even be on the list at all. They are not summoning spells, they aren't spells you would use with a summoned creature, and they are iconic spells for other classes. Most of these spells are the sort I would expect to see a bard casting -- illusion, enchantment, and oddity useful things -- and in many cases the bard does get them. But the summoner receives them before the bard does -- and that isn't right. Bard's don't even get dominate monster -- so why does the summoner?
It isn't a power issue either (as in the summoner is too weak without these spells) -- the summoner has summon monster as a standard action several times per day at equal spell level, plus an eidolon, and extra class features on top of that. He doesn't need these extra spells that don't match concept on top of what he has already.
I agree. There wasn't a particularly compelling reason to not let summoners get 9th level spells (with fewer slots per level). I mentioned that during the playtest, but opinions were mixed.
But should a summoner receive those spells sooner than a Wizard (Primary caster) with a 1/2 BAB and 1d6 hitpoints. Whos main focus isnt controlling a powerful summoned Eidolon but just casting spells.
Mass Eagle's Splendor: Sorcerer gets it at 12th level (lets not argue with the fact that a sorcerer should never pick this spell...)
Summoner gets it at 10th level, two whole levels sooner. (also lets not look at the fact that the Mass Attribute buff spells should be like 4th or 5th level in the first place.)
Heck comparing the level Summoner gets a lot of these spells to the level Sorcerers get them your looking at Two levels sooner in most cases, 3 levels in some.
Read my post. There's not much difference between dominate monster as a level 9 spell for wizards and a class that has it as a level 1 spell who gets level 1 casting at level 17. As a matter of fact, the wizard is better off because at least it has +8 DC compared to my hypothetical class. Also the basis for whether a class gets something "late" or "early" is compared to prepared casters not spontaneous (whose delay is still very mysterious to me).
Should a Summoner be able to cast Haste at a lower character level than a Specialist Transmuter? Two levels sooner than a Sorcerer?
Should a Summoner be able to cast Dominate Monster a level sooner than an Enchanter Specialist? Two levels sooner than a Fey Bloodline Sorcerer?
A specialist transmuter also has a number of abilities, more feats, and also the ability to metamagic a lot of stuff. Oh yes and more importantly a much larger selection of spells. Keep in mind that a summoner only gets 34 picks by level 20, while sorceror gets 43 (counting bloodline). Oh yes, then there's the human sorceror favored class bonus which raises it up to 60. In all counts I'm excluding cantrips. Including cantrips it's 40 to 52, and 40 to 72. That is nontrivial. I will emphasize again the importance of the larger variety of spells that is accessible to the full casters. Also sorceror has much larger spells per day. Before bonus spells, sorceror gets 54 while summoner gets 30. When you throw in bonus spells, the sorceror edges out a few more than the summoner. Sorceror gets bonus feats and what not. If I want a straight caster, I'll still pick sorceror. While the eidolon is very good, the ability to do things like quicken greater invis is quite relevant.
<stuff><list>Well rather judging things by what spell level they receive it at, try judging it by what character level they receive the spells at. Should the summoner have to wait until 16th level to receive mass stat boost? When you put it in those terms, the summoner doesn't receive any spells earlier than 1 level faster than wiz (exception to daze monster). If you look at the list on the whole, it is mostly buffs and some BC.
I would contend that the summoner is a specialist at summoning, buffing, and controlling monsters. That seems to be their theme.
A wizard gets dominate person at level 9. A summoner never gets that spell, so the summoner has to wait until level 16 before they can dominate monster. By that time, the Fey Sorcerer has been dominating every humanoid they come across for 6 levels.
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While I don't have an issue with squishing higher level spells into lower ones to fit a theme (the bard does it after all...and I would hope the magus has that done for some spells as well in their final spell list)...the summoner's list comes off as somebody making a wish list and having it all granted. I can MAYBE forgive the wall spell...they maybe evocation, but at least something gets made and stays up for a while...but slow and greater invis just doesn't fit. Never mind getting them a level earlier, the summoner shouldn't have these spells at all. And the mass stat boots getting dropped 2 levels?!? Dominate monster?!? While I didn't dislike the summoner at first (actually thought it would be a pretty nice balanced class), the more I see it getting played, the more I start to dislike the class. It feels like it was made by commity and nobody had the balls to say NO.
I totally agree with the OP that giving 6-cap casters some spells at a reduced level is awkward, and generally distasteful. I'm particularly bothered by spells like Haste, which are acquired sooner by the Summoner than the full casting classes.
Also, don't forget to count gear into the equation. A Summoner can use a Pearl of Power II or Ring of Wizardry II to cast Haste, while a Wizard would require a level 3 item, at significantly higher cost. The same is true for bonus spells from attributes.
If a class like Summoner needs to have Haste, let them cast it as a 3rd level spell. If they need to have a similar effect at lower levels, simply create a lower level spell effect. "Minor Haste = Haste 1 target" for example. That would be a perfectly reasonable 2nd level spell for a Summoner.
Virtually no use of metamagic, few spells known, few spells per day, and only on a few occasions does it get the chance to take ONE spell at 1 level lower than their counterparts. Looks broken in theory, didn't seem so in practice.
Could have given him 1/2BAB and d6 HP in my opinion. The illusion of combat competence is shot down by the need to max a bad caster stat (Cha as opposed to the infinitely more useful Int or Wis) if he is to have ANY hope of compensating the innately low DC from casting 1-6 instead of 1-9.
Every summoner I have made has ended up being either a pathetic buff-monkey that would perish at the first real combat, or a decent caster that needs the eidolon as his personal combined rocket-launcher/babysitter until glitterdust, black tentacles or similar stuff hits and he can send it in to play at being a fighter.
While the spell selection is good, he lacks some of the most fundamental protection spells (like mirror image) that allow him to remain on the ground and close to his eidolon. Not that his meager spell selection would allow him to TAKE said spells, and still have the buff/debuff potential that makes him good.
Did someone considered the Eidolon in the equation?
One other thing a summoner can do - that NO one else can - is metamagic Dominate Monster with Spell Perfection. It takes a lot of feat investment, so many won't think it's worth it, but you can take Extend Spell and Reach Spell (which you will EASILY use at higher levels without too much trouble) to fill the requirements of the feat, in addition to Spell Focus Enchantment, Spell Penetration, and Persistent Spell. Then - at level 17 - you have a DC that is only 1 lower than normal (double Spell Focus bonus), plus the effect of Greater Spell Penetration, as well as TWO cracks at domination with Persistent Spell, for the price of a 6-level slot!
I wouldn't do it starting from low levels...but if you start at higher levels, I think it'd be great.
Did someone consider the Eidolon in the equation?
Yes. There already exists another class that has a pet and 9th level spellcasting and additional class features -- the druid. I think it would have been well within reason to make the pet stronger and the 9th level spellcasting + class features weaker to create the summoner.
I think the 6 vs. 9 spell levels isn´t that fundamental a problem...
They could easily have gone either way... But 6 spell levels works with all their free Summon SLAs, while I think they would have needed to ditch the SLAs if they went with Full Casting. Given their early access, I think they´re coming out well ahead...
I definitely agree with Abraham... The spell list was made too broad, and the broad early access (character level) and reduced spell levels just went way overboard - that is appropriate for FOCUSED themes central to their schtick, but shouldn´t be used to just give them general, group-useful buffs. Especially given that the Summoner is going to have a high CHA, thus making UMD viable to use earlier (if a party needs a Summoner to ´fill in´ for a Full Caster).
Clearly, early access to Haste/Slow (to name an example) is seriously important to balancing published adventures... Honestly, some Errata on Spell Levels seems very viable here, certainly just as much as the Paladin Smite Errata.
They have little reason to even be on a conjuration/summoning specialist's.
This is why you fail to understand.
The Summoner is not a conjuration specialist wizard. Remember, one of the primary inspirations for the Summoner class is Dr. Frankenstein. The Summoner is an arcane pet class, not a conjuration specialist caster.
EDIT: And incidentally, almost all of those spells you listed are, in fact, on the actual conjuration specialist's spell list, so your argument is silly even there.
Did someone consider the Eidolon in the equation?Yes. There already exists another class that has a pet and 9th level spellcasting and additional class features -- the druid. I think it would have been well within reason to make the pet stronger and the 9th level spellcasting + class features weaker to create the summoner.
You mean is fine this way?
(for me is, otherwise we just would have an arcane druid)
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I personally think the class inspiration is Yu-Gi-Oh! :)
It felt more like Final Fantasy to me, but that's all good. My wife finds the possibility of playing this type of character intriguing, although we have no play experience with the class to comment on the pros or cons. I think we'll have fun with it regardless.
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Did someone consider the Eidolon in the equation?Yes. There already exists another class that has a pet and 9th level spellcasting and additional class features -- the druid. I think it would have been well within reason to make the pet stronger and the 9th level spellcasting + class features weaker to create the summoner.
In the end, I always end up with this conclusion. I theorycrafted, I've playtested, I've optimized, I've just played. Druid is just better than summoner. I'm very unhappy that the druid is just so much better in every aspect except for the pet. And even the druid animal companion isn't weak, it's just not as good as the summoner's eidolon. Furthermore, the eidolon is better, but it's not so much better than the summoner is giving up more spells per day, spell levels, the entire druid list vs. the small summoner list, prepared vs. spontaneous casting, same HD, same BAB, worse saves.
The only thing that's really cool and good about the summoner is that making your own monster is pretty cool. But it's nowhere near overpowering. God forbid a summoner gets knocked out or falls asleep, and his most powerful ability goes away until combat ends if the summoner is cured of sleep or unconscious status. So many abilities don't combo together. It annoys me to no end just the simple part of healing the eidolon is a difficult task for a summoner. I get 1 spell at level 1, and 1 bonus. If my eidolon goes down, it never heals unless I spend my already limited spells per day and spell known list. Or I can ask a druid for healing...
Yeah I'm ranting. But it annoys me so much that the class feels so much weaker than the druid.
Actually the Summonner (nor any other spontaneous caster ) can not use the Pearl, which is only usable by casters who PREPARE spells. If you've been allowing Bards, Sorcerers, Oracles, and the like to use Pearls of Power, you've been making a mistake. Also remember that the Ring only doubles the base spell slots per day. Bonuses from attributes or other qualities are NOT factored in.I totally agree with the OP that giving 6-cap casters some spells at a reduced level is awkward, and generally distasteful. I'm particularly bothered by spells like Haste, which are acquired sooner by the Summoner than the full casting classes.
Also, don't forget to count gear into the equation. A Summoner can use a Pearl of Power II or Ring of Wizardry II to cast Haste, while a Wizard would require a level 3 item, at significantly higher cost. The same is true for bonus spells from attributes.
You're correct about pearls of power, of course; that was a bad example.
Did someone consider the Eidolon in the equation?Yes. There already exists another class that has a pet and 9th level spellcasting and additional class features -- the druid. I think it would have been well within reason to make the pet stronger and the 9th level spellcasting + class features weaker to create the summoner.In the end, I always end up with this conclusion. I theorycrafted, I've playtested, I've optimized, I've just played. Druid is just better than summoner. I'm very unhappy that the druid is just so much better in every aspect except for the pet. And even the druid animal companion isn't weak, it's just not as good as the summoner's eidolon. Furthermore, the eidolon is better, but it's not so much better than the summoner is giving up more spells per day, spell levels, the entire druid list vs. the small summoner list, prepared vs. spontaneous casting, same HD, same BAB, worse saves.
The only thing that's really cool and good about the summoner is that making your own monster is pretty cool. But it's nowhere near overpowering. God forbid a summoner gets knocked out or falls asleep, and his most powerful ability goes away until combat ends if the summoner is cured of sleep or unconscious status. So many abilities don't combo together. It annoys me to no end just the simple part of healing the eidolon is a difficult task for a summoner. I get 1 spell at level 1, and 1 bonus. If my eidolon goes down, it never heals unless I spend my already limited spells per day and spell known list. Or I can ask a druid for healing...
Yeah I'm ranting. But it annoys me so much that the class feels so much weaker than the druid.
I'm very happy with the design of the core classes, and also with inquisitor, cavalier, and oracle. I'm slightly less happy with the alchemist and witch, but I think both could be very easily brought up to speed with a handful of extra feats, spells, extracts, hexes, a few alternate class features, and a prestige class or two.
The summoner, on the other hand, will be harder to fix. It's an outstanding idea! An arcane pet-class has been a long time coming, and I'd love to see more variations on it. (through alternate class features, not more base classes) But there are just so many awkward rules involved. You can change some things about your pet (it's shape) but not others (it's ability to use that shape); it dissipates due to any form of unconsciousness; too many spells re-leveled (see the original post); 9 summoning spells turned into SLA; then add generally confusing rules about building the pet.
Frankly, I think that adding an arcane pet-class was the best new-class idea in the APG, but that it also received the poorest execution. Rampant spell-releveling was only one aspect.
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In the end, I always end up with this conclusion. I theorycrafted, I've playtested, I've optimized, I've just played. Druid is just better than summoner. I'm very unhappy that the druid is just so much better in every aspect except for the pet. And even the druid animal companion isn't weak, it's just not as good as the summoner's eidolon. Furthermore, the eidolon is better, but it's not so much better than the summoner is giving up more spells per day, spell levels, the entire druid list vs. the small summoner list, prepared vs. spontaneous casting, same HD, same BAB, worse saves.
Is the summoner a fun class? Yes
Is it viable in combat? Yes
Is in the middle of the pack with regards the class power?
Roughly, definitely more powerful than some of the classes, definitely not the top dog either, maybe in the higher end power wise which is about right.
Does the class do something interesting and new?
Yes, it does have some overlap with other classes but the 'build-your-own-creature' aspect is fun and unique.
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I'm not sure what you are looking for but that's about what matters to me in a new class. Considering the druid is *still* considered one of the most powerful classes in the game, the druid should be more powerful than the summoner. New classes shouldn't be pushing the limits of the power curve, they should be filling new niches at a reasonable power level and the summoner does exactly that.
The summoner has more than it's share of wonky, somewhat inconsistent mechanics, but power wise it sets right about where it should be.
In the end, I always end up with this conclusion. I theorycrafted, I've playtested, I've optimized, I've just played. Druid is just better than summoner. I'm very unhappy that the druid is just so much better in every aspect except for the pet. And even the druid animal companion isn't weak, it's just not as good as the summoner's eidolon. Furthermore, the eidolon is better, but it's not so much better than the summoner is giving up more spells per day, spell levels, the entire druid list vs. the small summoner list, prepared vs. spontaneous casting, same HD, same BAB, worse saves.Is the summoner a fun class? Yes
Is it viable in combat? Yes
Is in the middle of the pack with regards the class power?
Roughly, definitely more powerful than some of the classes, definitely not the top dog either, maybe in the higher end power wise which is about right.Does the class do something interesting and new?
Yes, it does have some overlap with other classes but the 'build-your-own-creature' aspect is fun and unique..
I'm not sure what you are looking for but that's about what matters to me in a new class. Considering the druid is *still* considered one of the most powerful classes in the game, the druid should be more powerful than the summoner. New classes shouldn't be pushing the limits of the power curve, they should be filling new niches at a reasonable power level and the summoner does exactly that.
The summoner has more than it's share of wonky, somewhat inconsistent mechanics, but power wise it sets right about where it should be.
Thank you.
In the end, I always end up with this conclusion. I theorycrafted, I've playtested, I've optimized, I've just played. Druid is just better than summoner. I'm very unhappy that the druid is just so much better in every aspect except for the pet. And even the druid animal companion isn't weak, it's just not as good as the summoner's eidolon. Furthermore, the eidolon is better, but it's not so much better than the summoner is giving up more spells per day, spell levels, the entire druid list vs. the small summoner list, prepared vs. spontaneous casting, same HD, same BAB, worse saves.Is the summoner a fun class? Yes
Is it viable in combat? Yes
Is in the middle of the pack with regards the class power?
Roughly, definitely more powerful than some of the classes, definitely not the top dog either, maybe in the higher end power wise which is about right.Does the class do something interesting and new?
Yes, it does have some overlap with other classes but the 'build-your-own-creature' aspect is fun and unique..
I'm not sure what you are looking for but that's about what matters to me in a new class. Considering the druid is *still* considered one of the most powerful classes in the game, the druid should be more powerful than the summoner. New classes shouldn't be pushing the limits of the power curve, they should be filling new niches at a reasonable power level and the summoner does exactly that.
The summoner has more than it's share of wonky, somewhat inconsistent mechanics, but power wise it sets right about where it should be.
+1, You should not be using the druid as a power gauge for new classes at all.