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A masterwork shield is a masterwork shield regardless of how it is used or subsequently enchanted. Always -1 ACP, never +1 to-hit.
While a masterwork shield does not receive a to-hit bonus, it is eligible to enchanted as both armor and a weapon.
While I'm entirely fine with that. We would be assuming something, as we don't have a rule stating that is true.
As BNW said, if you want to cover all the bases you pay the 300 gp additional.
At the very least, by the time the Mindblade Magus came into being (Occult Adventures, so 2015 IIRC) the transition to "a shield is a weapon" had been underway for quite some time.
I mean, it seems like a mindblade above 7th level who spends 4 psychic pool points should be able to manifest and earthbreaker and a klar to make use of thunder and fang style, indeed this is probably a pretty cool concept.
But if a Klar is a weapon (and it nigh unarguably is) then a shield should be too.
So correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that Paizo never intended the shield to be a "weapon." The intention was for it to be a piece of armor that you could hit things with and it's only included on the weapons chart because that's the only place to list the information for damage and criticals. Correct? If that was the case, then why include it in a fighter's weapon group? Why have rules for enchanting a shield as a magic weapon?That seems to show they intended the shield to be a weapon.
All of those are needed for the times when you treat a shield as a weapon.
Did/does Paizo intended a shield to be a weapon? I don't know, but just like Deadeye Bowman does say what was probably intended, the rules say a shield is not a weapon.
So correct me if I'm wrong but your argument seems to be that Paizo never intended the shield to be a "weapon." The intention was for it to be a piece of armor that you could hit things with and it's only included on the weapons chart because that's the only place to list the information for damage and criticals. Correct? If that was the case, then why include it in a fighter's weapon group? Why have rules for enchanting a shield as a magic weapon?That seems to show they intended the shield to be a weapon.All of those are needed for the times when you treat a shield as a weapon.
Did/does Paizo intended a shield to be a weapon? I don't know, but just like Deadeye Bowman does say what was probably intended, the rules say a shield is not a weapon.
Are you referring to the rules laying out the damage values and crit ranges for different shields, or the rules defining which weapon group shields are in?
For the record, I have no idea what Deadeye Bowman is.
It's a trait, there's some debate as to whether it affects all manner of longbows or only non-composite longbows since it says "when using a longbow..."
Regarding the issue at hand, I think that since there are actual weapons without weapon groups, it seems reasonable to assume that "weapons" is a superset of the disjoint union of weapon groups. So someone can apply their weapon training bonus to attacks and damage with something, it's a weapon.
Actually those are not needed is my point. A shield does not need to be included in a weapon group to occasionally be treated as a weapon. A shield does not need to enhanced as a weapon to be occasionally treated as a weapon. If it was just intended to a piece of armor, and not a weapon, why include those rules? This is Core Rulebook stuff. It's not some archetype or splat feat but rather the main rule book for Pathfinder.
I'm not sure what you mean by "needed ". The feat power attack isn't "needed" it gives you an option.
Like I said all of those options are for times you treat the shield as a weapon. I mean it's straight up in the rules. A shield is treated as a weapon. That doesn't seem the least bit ambiguous to me.
If I say I'm going to treat you as a child when you act childish, that doesn't mean you aren't an adult. Even when I treat you like a child you're still an adult, it's just the way I'm treating you. I may even make you take a nap or put a diaper on you, that still doesn't change your age.
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A shield may be able to be used as a weapon but I'll still say we have to follow the rules and they say in Ultimate Equipment:
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
A shield may be able to be used as a weapon but I'll still say we have to follow the rules and they say in Ultimate Equipment:
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. However, you can create masterwork armor spikes and shield spikes, which do confer their enhancement bonus on attack rolls to attacks made with the spikes.
Ultimate Equipment does not state a shield is not a weapon, Ultimate equipment states masterwork shields do not receive an enhancement bonus to attack rolls. I.e. there are specific rules dealing with how shields are treated.
RAW also has the following to say about shields
Close: bayonet, brass knuckles, cestus, dan bong, emei piercer, fighting fan, gauntlet, heavy shield, iron brush, katar, klar, light shield, madu, mere club, punching dagger, rope gauntlet, sap, scizore, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, tekko-kagi, tonfa, unarmed strike, wooden stake, and wushu dart.
Shield, light 3 gp/9 gp 1d2 1d3 ×2 — special B — PRG:CRB
Shield, heavy special 1d3 1d4 ×2 — special B — PRG:CRB
Spiked shield, heavy 17 gp/30 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 — special P — PRG:CRB
And finally
You can bash with a shield instead of using it for defense.
Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon.
Weapon Feature(s): shield
Emphasis mine.
Simple, unambiguous, and straight to the point:
If I show someone a fishing rod and tell him "You can use this as a fishing rod," what would happen?
Would he say "Yes, I agree, I can use this object as a fishing rod, but because you told me I can use it as one, it most certainly can't be one. This thing here, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, is not a fishing rod. Luckily, I can still use it as a fishing rod."
Or would he say "Of course I can use it as a fishing rod. It is a fishing rod. All evidence points to it as being a fishing rod. Just because you used a weird turn of phrase when you introduced this thing as a fishing rod, it doesn't stop being a fishing rod."
Still you can't create a "weapon" masterwork version of a shield so you can't enchant it with weapon properties, so if you want those things you need the spike to enchant with those things.
Incorrect.
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
A shield may be enchanted, but the enhancement bonus to attack is paid for separate from the enhancement bonus to AC.
Unless you have the Shield Master feat.
Furthermore, there is no requirement that a shield to have an enhancement bonus to AC prior to having an enhancement bonus to attack.
"You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Is telling you about proficiency when you keep all the context.
"You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon."
Is telling you about proficiency when you keep all the context.
In context includes being told which weapon tables to reference for damage and crit range, in addition to proficiency requirements.
The weapon description for shields, and it was the weapon description I was quoting, tells me to refer to the martial weapon tables to obtain weapon stats.
If a shield is a weapon despite rules text stating otherwiseThe only rules text you've cited literally says the exact opposite of that.
You're literally completely wrong. I'll say it again: A shield is treated as a weapon...
That's what the rules say.
Simple, unambiguous, and straight to the point:
Except your missing the important part that proves you wrong: When used this way...
Then you left out the "treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon" which means it's NOT a one-handed weapon, and the same applies to light shield.
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If a shield is a weapon despite rules text stating otherwiseThe only rules text you've cited literally says the exact opposite of that.You're literally completely wrong. I'll say it again: A shield is treated as a weapon...
That's what the rules say.
The say a lot of things about shields, you cannot pick a single word in one location and disregard the long list of other references, including multiple instances of RAW that explicitly name shields as weapons.
Literally all anyone has to do to prove you long is look under weapon descriptions for shields and read the statement that has already been quoted.
a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
Simple, unambiguous, and straight to the point:
Except your missing the important part that proves you wrong: When used this way...
Then you left out the "treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon" which means it's NOT a one-handed weapon, and the same applies to light shield.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon
Lets examine the entire statement.
The word treat is not referring the shields status as a weapon. The word treat, and the entire sentence it appears in, deals exclusively with specifics of shield classifications for purposes of attack penalties. Penalties that only exist when using TWFing.
I.e. is a given shield a light or one-handed weapon when used off-hand with TWFing.
The sentence was omitted from my quote because it has no relevance to the argument. It is clarifying conditions regarding a specific combat style, not classification.
Shields are called out as weapons in numerous locations in the rules.
They're also described as "treated as weapons".
These two statements don't oppose each other.
Something that is a weapon may be treated as a weapon. No problem there.
I feel whether something is treated as a weapon or not doesn't really matter. You hit someone with a waffle iron, it's treated as a(n improvised) weapon. You use a spear to hold up a tarp, or a dagger to spread jam on bread, a net to catch fish, or an axe to chop wood and you're not treating those things as weapons even though they are weapons. But regardless the waffle iron is not a weapon, but the rest of those things are. The shield is, however a weapon, it's just that this property generally only matters when you're liable to hit someone with it, and not when you're using it as a makeshift umbrella.
Still you can't create a "weapon" masterwork version of a shield so you can't enchant it with weapon properties, so if you want those things you need the spike to enchant with those things.
This is one of the best examples in the rules Where A and B logically equal C and yet the rules cleary say not c.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a light shield. See "shield, light" on Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
So there objectively IS a way to make a shield itself a weapon, not just the spike.
The logic is sound. the logic is valid. It's wrong anyway.
Still you can't create a "weapon" masterwork version of a shield so you can't enchant it with weapon properties, so if you want those things you need the spike to enchant with those things.
This is wrong on multiple levels.
Even though some types of armor and shields can be used as weapons, you can't create a masterwork version of such an item that confers an enhancement bonus on attack rolls. Instead, masterwork armor and shields have lessened armor check penalties.
For starters, while it's true that you can't create a Masterwork Shield that confers an enhancement bonus to attack rolls, it's still a Masterwork Shield with a reduced Armor Check Penalty in place of the Enhancement Bonus they'd usually get. And based on inclusion in Fighter Weapon Groups, the ability to be enhanced as Magic Weapons, and so on, we know that Shields are Weapons. Therefore, it's still a Masterwork Weapon.
Next, you don't need Shield Spikes to enhance a Shield as a Weapon.
...An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
And that's not counting the numerous Specific Magic Shields that have offensive benefits that require a Magic Weapon to apply them. Are we gonna sit there and say half of the Specific Magic Shields are wrong and shouldn't be trusted to be used?
Also, before you say you can't have both armor and weapon properties, we have this:
A shield could be built that also acted as a magic weapon, but the cost of the enhancement bonus on attack rolls would need to be added into the cost of the shield and its enhancement bonus to AC.
You have several pieces of information that allow you to stack both Armor and Weapon enhancement bonuses, both with the sentence structure (the word "also"), and the idea that you calculate the sum of one related entity by adding the two subjects in question together.
Lastly, you can't enhance Shield Spikes, because they aren't an entity separate from the Shield they're attached to. The only thing Shield Spikes exist for, is to attach to a shield (assumedly upon crafting it).
An enhancement bonus on a spiked shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but a spiked shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
Again, several notes here tell us that Shield Spikes aren't things you enhance, because A. you have multiple references to a Spiked Shield, WHICH ARE NOT SHIELD SPIKES, and B. sentence structure would've accounted for the plurality of the conjoined term "Shield Spikes". They don't. Therefore, the singularity that is a Spiked Shield is the subject you enhance.
+1
I have come to a realization about shields.
A Shield is a weapon only during a shield bash. The action of a shield bash is when a shield becomes a weapon and only during a shield bash is a shield is a weapon.
Page 152, Core Rulebook, paraphrasing from both heavy and light shield.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a shield. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
A shield must be used in a Shield Bash Attack to be a weapon. Only during a shield bash is a shield is a weapon. At all other times a shield only counts as armor.
So to answer the tread, IS "SHIELD" A "WEAPON"?, would be:
Yes, a shield is a weapon, but only during a Shield Bash Attack.
I have come to a realization about shields.
A Shield is a weapon only during a shield bash. The action of a shield bash is when a shield becomes a weapon and only during a shield bash is a shield is a weapon.
Page 152, Core Rulebook, paraphrasing from both heavy and light shield.
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a shield. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
A shield must be used in a Shield Bash Attack to be a weapon. Only during a shield bash is a shield is a weapon. At all other times a shield only counts as armor.
So to answer the tread, IS "SHIELD" A "WEAPON"?, would be:
Yes, a shield is a weapon, but only during a Shield Bash Attack.
A scythe is a weapon only while I hit someone with it. At all other times it is a farming implement.
Fortunately, like a shield, it can still be enchanted as a weapon, benefits from weapon specific feats, is a valid selection for weapon specific class abilities, etc.