so i play tested an orc gunslinger NPC (since i am the DM). gave him extra grit as a feat, rapid reload, and wpn focus (musket). Made the musket a +1 lucky musket with the far reaching sight.
going into the battle had the orc sorcerer buff the gunslinger with cats grace, landing him at a 22 for dex (+6).
the battle was over before it started. i was able to get a suprise round off for the GS, so he shot the heavy hitter paladin for 18pts of dmg, and he secured first init order, so he hit the pali again for 17 and 15 pts, dropping him. (he was using the lighting reload deed).
then he proceeded to take down the halfling thief, the elven fighter, and almost dropped the sorcerer before running out of grit. all in all, failry well....
... but my players hated him like no other.
What level was the gunslinger? What level was the party?
What level was the gunslinger? What level was the party?
At least 5th, probably higher since he is using a 6000gp weapon.
your experience is a bit surprising, not only by my experience wit the gunslinger but also with the what you generally read on this messageboard.
Could you please explain a little further what happened like in round 2-3-4?
And as mentioned, lvls would be nice. Was it 1 boss against 4 PC's? Normally a ranged only boss would have had a very hard time. What happened?
Also it seems that the gunslinger burned trough nearly all his grit in that fight. If it were a player gunslinger that wouldn't be as acceptable.
so i play tested an orc gunslinger NPC (since i am the DM). gave him extra grit as a feat, rapid reload, and wpn focus (musket). Made the musket a +1 lucky musket with the far reaching sight.
going into the battle had the orc sorcerer buff the gunslinger with cats grace, landing him at a 22 for dex (+6).the battle was over before it started. i was able to get a suprise round off for the GS, so he shot the heavy hitter paladin for 18pts of dmg, and he secured first init order, so he hit the pali again for 17 and 15 pts, dropping him. (he was using the lighting reload deed).
then he proceeded to take down the halfling thief, the elven fighter, and almost dropped the sorcerer before running out of grit. all in all, failry well....... but my players hated him like no other.
i hope that was your only battle for that day, otherwise youre out of grit and up s*%# creek with no paddle.
i hope that was your only battle for that day, otherwise youre out of grit and up s*%# creek with no paddle.
He's the GM. That was an enemy. They only need to fight once per day, since after that they are supposed to be dead.
i hope that was your only battle for that day, otherwise youre out of grit and up s*%# creek with no paddle.He's the GM. That was an enemy. They only need to fight once per day, since after that they are supposed to be dead.
Isn't that metagaming. How does the NPC know that is the only time he'll need grit?
Sorry, didn't know he was an npc. U can make a warrior do a lot of damage. That still doesn't make the class good.
i find it amusing but overly convenient that there was a random sorcerer to buff the gunslinger before the fight and dissapear. that weapon is out of even pc wealth budgets for many levels.
and lucky does not give an extra point of grit, it lets you save a point for later. and is likely a useless enchantment because it is so bloody easy to run out of grit. and so hard to get more.
that weapon costs 11800 gold pieces. wealth by level chart assumes you won't spend more than 25% on any single item. the very minimum where this weapon can be bought under these guidelines is 10th level as a pc. even higher as an npc. this is before you even factor ammunition.
11 gold pieces per attack before factoring specialty ammo.
and reloading takes forever normally. this orc was burning grit.
i could build an equal level fighter that deals more damage than this orcish gunslinger and make the party cringe even more. and without needing the convenient help of a sorcerer who pops up from out of nowhere, buffs and dissapears.
Isn't that metagaming. How does the NPC know that is the only time he'll need grit?i hope that was your only battle for that day, otherwise youre out of grit and up s*%# creek with no paddle.He's the GM. That was an enemy. They only need to fight once per day, since after that they are supposed to be dead.
If I were severely outnumbered, I would blow all of my Grit to try to survive, too.
No metagaming here. Just fighting hard.
i find it amusing but overly convenient that there was a random sorcerer to buff the gunslinger before the fight and dissapear. that weapon is out of even pc wealth budgets for many levels.
and lucky does not give an extra point of grit, it lets you save a point for later. and is likely a useless enchantment because it is so bloody easy to run out of grit. and so hard to get more.
that weapon costs 11800 gold pieces. wealth by level chart assumes you won't spend more than 25% on any single item. the very minimum where this weapon can be bought under these guidelines is 10th level as a pc. even higher as an npc. this is before you even factor ammunition.
11 gold pieces per attack before factoring specialty ammo.
and reloading takes forever normally. this orc was burning grit.
i could build an equal level fighter that deals more damage than this orcish gunslinger and make the party cringe even more. and without needing the convenient help of a sorcerer who pops up from out of nowhere, buffs and dissapears.
Ah, I forgot to add the cost of a musket. So a 7500gp weapon. I'm missing the other 4k though.
But that's still 7-8th level, even by PC wealth.
A fighter would beat the living snot out of the party.
Isn't that metagaming. How does the NPC know that is the only time he'll need grit?
Seriously? If the GS is fighting for his life against a group of attackers you think he will be worrying about saving his grit points for later or living through the combat?
1500 for a musket
300 for masterwork
2000 for scope
8,000 for +2 enchantment (+1 lucky)
for a total of 11800 gp.
lucky counts as a +1 equivalent bonus and because it is a special ability, it requires a +1 weapon to work with. so effectively a +2 weapon.
enchanting a weapon has a cost of the effective enhancement bonus squared multiplied by 1,000 gp.
it would be 7800 gp after item creation discounts assuming it was crafted by a caster who doesn't care about making a profit.
11 gp per shot not counting specialty ammunition like adamantine or bane bullets.
gunslingers just don't have enough grit to be viable.
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Isn't that metagaming. How does the NPC know that is the only time he'll need grit?Seriously? If the GS is fighting for his life against a group of attackers you think he will be worrying about saving his grit points for later or living through the combat?
Well players have to worry about multiple encounters per day.
1500 for a musket
300 for masterwork
2000 for scope
8,000 for +2 enchantment (+1 lucky)
for a total of 11800 gp.lucky counts as a +1 equivalent bonus and because it is a special ability, it requires a +1 weapon to work with. so effectively a +2 weapon.
enchanting a weapon has a cost of the effective enhancement bonus squared multiplied by 1,000 gp.
it would be 7800 gp after item creation discounts assuming it was crafted by a caster who doesn't care about making a profit.
11 gp per shot not counting specialty ammunition like adamantine or bane bullets.
gunslingers just don't have enough grit to be viable.
Enchantment includes the cost of masterwork I believe. So yeah, 11,500 gp weapon. And that's just the weapon. So that's 9th level - for PCs. And the best he could do is 18 damage a shot to the Paladin - the character with the lowest touch AC due to relying on heavy armor. A Fighter, or Ranger (FE: Human) would mess them up like nobody's business.
and pc classes were designed with players in mind. meaning they are meant to go through multiple encounters as well.
the idea that a monster is "Fresh" and has all resources available at all times is an anti immersive assumption. if players go through wear and tear throughout the day, the monsters should as well. this should also serve to balance spellcasting bosses as well.
you could assume that if each encounter is supposed to drain 20% of a pc's resources, that monsters likely went through a similar expenditure over a similar period of time for similar reasons.
EDIT; a Note to cartigan
a +1 longsword costs 2315 gold pieces
2,000 for enchantment
300 for masterwork
15 for a longsword.
masterwork is a seperate cost from enchanting the weapon.
EDIT; a Note to cartigan
a +1 longsword costs 2315 gold pieces
2,000 for enchantment
300 for masterwork
15 for a longsword.masterwork is a seperate cost from enchanting the weapon.
Masterwork costs are only subsumed into the cost of Mithril and Adamantine special materials.
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If the GS was super effective, the party must have been weak to steel.
No, probably not, it just sounds like he burned through all his grit in a single encounter which makes the musketeer good... until the next encounter when he's limited to one shot every other round. Also sounds like the GM rolled well, snagging a surprise round and getting initiative.
If the GS was super effective, the party must have been weak to steel.No, probably not, it just sounds like he burned through all his grit in a single encounter which makes the musketeer good... until the next encounter when he's limited to one shot every other round. Also sounds like the GM rolled well, snagging a surprise round and getting initiative.
He must have recovered some of the grit with killing shots.
He must have recovered some of the grit with killing shots.If the GS was super effective, the party must have been weak to steel.No, probably not, it just sounds like he burned through all his grit in a single encounter which makes the musketeer good... until the next encounter when he's limited to one shot every other round. Also sounds like the GM rolled well, snagging a surprise round and getting initiative.
You can only gain grit that way once a day
the APL for the group was 6. there are 6 members at 4th or 5th level, thus pushing up the apl +1. i designed the encounter to be an epic encounter, so i had it statted out at cr 9.
i had a 6th level sorcerer, 6th level barbarian/fighter, and 6th level gunslinger. starting gold was at 16000 gp. barbarian and sorcerer i bought the hodge podge of stuff and beefed up the barbarian's fullblade sword to be +1 throwing and returning.
i had the encounter set up on an open field to the north, with a small creek winding through the middle, on the southern side of this creek it turned to marsh. the creek also wound around a copse of trees, creating an island. next to the island, over the natural moat, was a slight rise, 10 feet tall, that looked down onto the open field.
the gunsligner was providing cover on that hill, concealed, and his first action was to shoot anyone who presented an imidiate threat to the sorcerer while the sorcerer talked to the party. the paladin, being a follower of gorum and a human kellid, hated the orc sorcerer on sight, and once given an inch, tried to kill the sorc. the gunslinger fired on him and gave the sorc a chance to run.
first round, gunslinger fires 2 shots, buring up a grit.
sorc runs to island
barbarian comes out of island to cover sorc
party react (sorcerer casts haunting image, rogue runs up behind OS, elven fighter also converges on OS)
rd 2
GS fires 2 shots on paladin, burning a grit, effect, drops paladin
Sorc takes cover in tree island
barb smashes the kender rogue, dealing half HP in dmg to rogue.
party( rogue tumbles behind barb, elven fighter/rogue engages barb, misses. sorc casts fireball on island)
rd 3
gs fires another volley hitting party sorcerer. burns a grit
barb smashes fighter/theif
sorc, having failed his ref save from fireball, rolls into the creek and enters teh tall grass of the marsh, watching.
party (rogue and fighter attack barb, dealing alot of dmg.)
rd 4
gs fires on kender rogue.
barb cuts down kender rogue.
sorc watchs
players ( elven f/r crits on barb, spilling entrails into creek. barb doesnt notice and continues to fight. sorc throws fireball at GS. [arguement over the fireball igniting the blackpowder. rules read about fireball, declaring the ref save of affected a save to gunpowder. otherwise, chunky salsa effect])
rd 5
gs one shots the sorcer.
barb swings at elven f, misses, bleeds out and collapses
players: elf moves around brush and waits. sorc takes cover behind/under paladin
rd 6
gs holds action til elven rogue shows face.
barb falls into creek to be fish food.
players: elf runs and jumps across creek, part way gets shot and goes limp (neg hps). sorc hurls another fireball at the gs. gs makes save.
rd 7
gs withdraws, deciding to wait for another day...
i withdrew the gs because i felt it wouldve been better for storyline to have this guy go into sandpoint and fight. i had tested the funness for long range combat, and wanted to try it out now with pistols, see how effective a gs is with enemy right on him.
grit at start of encounter 4, +1 in musket. used 3.
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Thanks for posting the details. I see some problems with the encoutner, however.
the APL for the group was 6. there are 6 members at 4th or 5th level, thus pushing up the apl +1. i designed the encounter to be an epic encounter, so i had it statted out at cr 9.
i had a 6th level sorcerer, 6th level barbarian/fighter, and 6th level gunslinger. starting gold was at 16000 gp. barbarian and sorcerer i bought the hodge podge of stuff and beefed up the barbarian's fullblade sword to be +1 throwing and returning.
Fullblade? You mean Greatsword, or Large Bastard Sword, or something else? Also, how the heck did the barb afford an 18,300+ gold weapon (+1 base, +1 throwing, +1 returning, = +3 weapon = 18,000 gold) with only 16,000 to spend and not being able to spend more than 1/4th on a single item?
i had the encounter set up on an open field to the north, with a small creek winding through the middle, on the southern side of this creek it turned to marsh. the creek also wound around a copse of trees, creating an island. next to the island, over the natural moat, was a slight rise, 10 feet tall, that looked down onto the open field.
the gunslinger was providing cover on that hill, concealed, and his first action was to shoot anyone who presented an imidiate threat to the sorcerer while the sorcerer talked to the party. the paladin, being a follower of gorum and a human kellid, hated the orc sorcerer on sight, and once given an inch, tried to kill the sorc. the gunslinger fired on him and gave the sorc a chance to run.
Was the gunslinger within 40 feet of the paladin? It's only a touch weapon out to the first range increment.
Did the Touch AC matter?
first round, gunslinger fires 2 shots, buring up a grit.
sorc runs to island
barbarian comes out of island to cover sorc
party react (sorcerer casts haunting image, rogue runs up behind OS, elven fighter also converges on OS)
Fair enough. Did both the Gunslinger's attacks hit, and for how much damage? Were you hitting Touch AC, and should you have been, given the range limitation?
For reference below, at the end of this round, the musket is not loaded. Started out loaded, fair enough, fired once, reload for one grit, fired again.
Grit Spent: 1
rd 2
GS fires 2 shots on paladin, burning a grit, effect, drops paladin
Sorc takes cover in tree island
barb smashes the kender rogue, dealing half HP in dmg to rogue.
party( rogue tumbles behind barb, elven fighter/rogue engages barb, misses. sorc casts fireball on island)
How did the gunslinger fire twice? Again, did he hit both times, and how much damage? What does "effect" mean?
Grit Spent: 2, -1 revoered for dropping paladin.
"puff of magic" shots gained from nowhere: 1.
rd 3
gs fires another volley hitting party sorcerer. burns a grit
barb smashes fighter/theif
sorc, having failed his ref save from fireball, rolls into the creek and enters teh tall grass of the marsh, watching.
party (rogue and fighter attack barb, dealing alot of dmg.)
What does "volley" mean? You have not used the word before. Did he fire once or twice? How many times did he hit?
Grit Spent: 3, -1 recovered for dropping paladin.
"puff of magic" shots gained from nowhere: 1, possibly 2.
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at this point, the gunslinger continues to fire once a round for two more rounds, so:
Grit Spent: 5, -1 recovered for dropping paladin.
"puff of magic" shots gained from nowhere: 1, possibly 2.
I find this playtest to be, well, worthless, really. I have no idea what's going on with the barbarian's weapon, andI have to assume the equipment of the other two characters was similarly messed up. The gunslinger burned through 5 grit, and had at least one extra shot appear out of nowhere.
We don't know the gunslinger's build (stats, feat selection, exact gear, etc), and no offense to the Original Poster, but given the horrible gear allocation, we have to assume that everything else (Ability Scores, Number of Feats, Attack Bonuses, amount of Grit, etc) was also compromised in some fashion.
We don't have all the information, and much of what we do have deviates significantly from the Rules As Written. We really appreciate the playtest - it's way more than most people are doing for the class - but the data is unreliable.
So um, first off, huh? Did the gunslinger have rapid reload or lightning reload? They are different feats, rapid reload wont allow the gunslinger to get off more then a shot every other round with his musket.
Second, where exactly do you get your standards for npc gear? Please have a look
Your gunslinger has a weapon worth over 11k gp. A 6th level heroic NPC should have a TOTAL of 4,650 gp in equipment with 2,350 gp spent on weapons. You cant even have a +1 Musket, let alone a +1lucky musket with that sight.
He gave them gear as though they were PC's rather than NPC's, made them higher level and made it an ambush from range with a primary ranged character.
so.. uhh.. yeah. Epic battle indeed. When the DM wants players to die, the players are going to die.
-S
I find the expectation some have for the npc gunslinger to not blow through his grit unreasonable. npc wizards and sorcerers do this all the time with spells
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I find the expectation some have for the npc gunslinger to not blow through his grit unreasonable. npc wizards and sorcerers do this all the time with spells
It's a worthy discussion, but there are bigger problems with this playtest.
I mean, the guy didn't stack potions or anything, so it's not like there was intentional cheese; Grit is a limited enough resource in it's current incarnation that I don't think the issue is worth worrying about.
Having a playtest where the character blows all his grit/ki/etc in one fight is a valuable piece of data, as long as we know that he did, in fact, use all of his daily allotment of powers.
He gave them gear as though they were PC's rather than NPC's, made them higher level and made it an ambush from range with a primary ranged character.
so.. uhh.. yeah. Epic battle indeed. When the DM wants players to die, the players are going to die.
-S
Yeah, all of that information should have been included up-front; it makes evaluating the results rather difficult.
But even with that, the playtest is still FUBAR. How does a character with 16k, even ignoring the "only 1/4 wealth on any one item rule", manage to purchase a weapon worth over 18k?
ok.... apparently i missed a whole section from the core rulebook. im talking in regards to the whole creating an npc part. In the past ive always created an npc like a pc, but i see now that with a whole chapter devoted to npc creation, i have alot of reading to do...
that said, i think my whole encounter is now considered null and void, since i failed to do my homework and create a "proper" encounter. So i shall rebuild the gunslinger using the blatantly obvious rules that Kolokotroni pointed out to me, so +1 for that KOLOK.
i see that there is some more stuff i have to look up and read up on...
the way i understand it, a +1 enhancement is 2k gp, along with each +1 special ability also equals 2k gps, thus equaling 6grand in gps. yes, i know its above the stated 1/4 rule, but i have my group use the "no more than half" rule.
so can someone point one exaclty where i am wrong in my thought process? even looking at pg 467 of the core rulebook, it only mentions that each bonus adds to market value. doesnt say how it adds...
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the way i understand it, a +1 enhancement is 2k gp, along with each +1 special ability also equals 2k gps, thus equaling 6grand in gps. yes, i know its above the stated 1/4 rule, but i have my group use the "no more than half" rule.
Not the way it works. Any +1 enhancement added above the first +1 makes it a +2 weapon. There's no such thing as a +1 +1 weapon.
So add up all the enhancements together and then get the price. In your case it makes it a +3 weapon, not a +1 +1 +1 weapon. Big difference in price.
ok.... apparently i missed a whole section from the core rulebook. im talking in regards to the whole creating an npc part. In the past ive always created an npc like a pc, but i see now that with a whole chapter devoted to npc creation, i have alot of reading to do...
that said, i think my whole encounter is now considered null and void, since i failed to do my homework and create a "proper" encounter. So i shall rebuild the gunslinger using the blatantly obvious rules that Kolokotroni pointed out to me, so +1 for that KOLOK.
i see that there is some more stuff i have to look up and read up on...
Yea, your NPCS are probably somewhere close to CR 7 or 8 each as they are WAY over geared. That said, I still dont understand how you were churning out all those shots? Does he in fact have lightning reload instead of the mentioned rapid reload? Because with rapid reload, a musket takes a standard action to reload a shot. And if it was lightning reload that is 1 grit per reloaded shot which in your example is something like 7 or 8 grit. Even with extra grit that is alot.
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There's no such thing as a +1 +1 weapon.
hmm. Here's the relevant text:
Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item
Actually, I can see how that would be confusing. There's not actual example showing new players how it's supposed to be done, and the text does not make it clear. Pricing a +1 Flaming weapon as (+1 = 2,000 + +1=2000 = 4,000) is incorrect, but it looks right according to RAW (the Rules As Written).
So the weapons aren't OMG terrible, they are just a newbie mistake. Those happen - the game is really freaking complicated, and has 11+ years of history going on the same basic rules-set. There's a great deal to take in.
In fact, a great deal of the playtest suddenly makes more sense - it's a group of players who are new to the system, so lots of things are bound to get messed up in some way or another.
Anyway, welcome to Pathfinder!
You might want to avoid playtesting new and potentially broken/difficult to use material until you've got a better grasp of the rules. If you want help, I suggest posting in the General or Rules forums with specific topics on various subjects, like "here is an NPC I've built for an upcoming session. Does anyone see any mistakes I made, or anything I could do to improve it?"
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Incidentally, there is such a thing as a +1/+1 weapon, but that's for double weapons; the slash indicates which parts of the bonus are one the "primary" end and which are on the "secondary" end. The bonuses from one end cannot be applied to the other end.
For instance, a Monk could have and use a +1 Flaming / +1 Frost quarterstaff (value 8,000 + 8,000 = 16,000 + 2x masterwork). For each of his flurry of blows attacks he can choose to hit with the +1 Flaming end, doing 1d6+1+str bludgeoning and 1d6 fire, OR he can hit with the +1 Frost end, doing 1d6+1+str bludgeoning +1d6 frost. The monk doesn't get to add both the flaming and frost to a single hit.
Of course, nothing prevents the monk from eventually using a +1 flaming frost / +1 flaming frost quarterstaff (18,000 + 18,000 = 36,000 +2x masterwork), but again, each end is independent of the other.
It's worth mentioning that a fair number of players/GMs have ...issues... with the practicality of a weapon that is both frozen and on fire at the same time, but that's just a lack of insanity on their parts.
From a practical point of view, the weapon is a huge waste of money - a monk only needs one magical weapon, the other end doesn't do a thing for him.
Incidentally, the monk doesn't suffer off-hand strength penalty because he's using Flurry of Blows. Just in case there was confusion there.
Yeah, pathfinder is complicated.
ahhhhh i got ya. is there anything written as to the RAI for adding up the weapon costs?
as to Kolok, i misread the lightning reload, i thought it was a deed, not a feat. that was my mistake. If i could change it, i would have the lightning reload as a feat instead of rapid reload.
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ahhhhh i got ya. is there anything written as to the RAI for adding up the weapon costs?
That IS the RAI.
as to Kolok, i misread the lightning reload, i thought it was a deed, not a feat. that was my mistake. If i could change it, i would have the lightning reload as a feat instead of rapid reload.
Rapid Reload is a prerequisite of Lightning Reload, so you can't take it instead.
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ahhhhh i got ya. is there anything written as to the RAI for adding up the weapon costs?
as to Kolok, i misread the lightning reload, i thought it was a deed, not a feat. that was my mistake. If i could change it, i would have the lightning reload as a feat instead of rapid reload.
The full name of Lightning Reload is actually "Lightning Reload Deed", so that's a very easy mistake to make. Confusing mechanics and poorly named abilities are par for the course during playtests (not a critique, just a statement of fact; I like that the Pathfinder playtests are so public).
Also, and just to drive home the whole "complicated" point I'm trying to make, the feat "Lightning Reload Deed" has the feat "Rapid Reload" as a prerequisite. So you can't drop Rapid for Lightning.
EDIT: ninja'd
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There's no such thing as a +1 +1 weapon.
hmm. Here's the relevant text:
Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the itemActually, I can see how that would be confusing. There's not actual example showing new players how it's supposed to be done, and the text does not make it clear. Pricing a +1 Flaming weapon as (+1 = 2,000 + +1=2000 = 4,000) is incorrect, but it looks right according to RAW (the Rules As Written).
So the weapons aren't OMG terrible, they are just a newbie mistake. Those happen - the game is really freaking complicated, and has 11+ years of history going on the same basic rules-set. There's a great deal to take in.
In fact, a great deal of the playtest suddenly makes more sense - it's a group of players who are new to the system, so lots of things are bound to get messed up in some way or another.
Anyway, welcome to Pathfinder!
You might want to avoid playtesting new and potentially broken/difficult to use material until you've got a better grasp of the rules. If you want help, I suggest posting in the General or Rules forums with specific topics on various subjects, like "here is an NPC I've built for an upcoming session. Does anyone see any mistakes I made, or anything I could do to improve it?"
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Incidentally, there is such a thing as a +1/+1 weapon, but that's for double weapons; the slash indicates which parts of the bonus are one the "primary" end and which are on the "secondary" end. The bonuses from one end cannot be applied to the other end.
For instance, a Monk could have and use a +1 Flaming / +1 Frost quarterstaff (value 8,000 + 8,000 = 16,000 + 2x masterwork). For each of his flurry of blows attacks he can choose to hit with the +1 Flaming end, doing 1d6+1+str bludgeoning and 1d6 fire, OR he can hit with the +1 Frost end, doing 1d6+1+str bludgeoning +1d6 frost. The monk doesn't get to add...
Sheesh...thanks for getting all technical and making this more complicated than it already was for the poor guy. For the record, I said +1 +1, not +1/+1. Totally different things. ;)
yeah, i read to fast sometimes. where it says rapid reload sort of blends into the benifit section.
the really sad part of all this is ive been playing RPGs since '95. been a dm with AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, shadowrun, rifts, wfrpg, and mage: the ascension, now pathfinder. I guess i just need to pull out the book, sit down, and really study the damn thing...
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yeah, i read to fast sometimes. where it says rapid reload sort of blends into the benifit section.
the really sad part of all this is ive been playing RPGs since '95. been a dm with AD&D, 3.0, 3.5, shadowrun, rifts, wfrpg, and mage: the ascension, now pathfinder. I guess i just need to pull out the book, sit down, and really study the damn thing...
Yeah... Actually, your experience is very common. Back in the 3.0/3.5 College gaming days, i ran into lots and lots of players who would swear up and down they knew the rules, but constantly made lots of little mistakes, and they'd get all fussy.
I'm happy to help, and I'm glad you've realized that you need to sit down and read/reread the core. I make a point of flipping open the book / Pathfinder OGC website whenever I'm thinking about a given rules, idea, or situation, and making sure I'm not confusing the mechanics wit h3.5 o Mage or WoD or Exalted or DitV or shadowrun or SAGA or...
It's a good habit to have.
Anyway, I think we've put this playtest to rest. The low-mid level Gunslinger with a musket still sucks on toast. Seriously, 10% chance to have to spend two rounds before you can attack again? no fun at all.
Well players have to worry about multiple encounters per day.
THAT is where the metagaming is. Players characters are living a life in a fantasy world. While the PLAYERS know that the GAME may have multiple encounters the CHARACTERS are only trying to live through a combat. If they need to use all their resources to avoid all being killed will they be saying: "No I better save that smite. It would save my life now but I may run into something else later today?"
Not likely. In a combat situation you use what you need to to live.
Well players have to worry about multiple encounters per day.THAT is where the metagaming is. Players characters are living a life in a fantasy world. While the PLAYERS know that the GAME may have multiple encounters the CHARACTERS are only trying to live through a combat. If they need to use all their resources to avoid all being killed will they be saying: "No I better save that smite. It would save my life now but I may run into something else later today?"
Not likely. In a combat situation you use what you need to to live.
No, THAT'S metagaming. The characters would be pretty familiar with their daily routine, which may result in running into a dragon in the dragon's lair after fighting the lizardfolk shaman.
this party of NPCs is way overgeared and they had to nova to deal that kind of damage. and all 3 were nova friendly builds. and at a level where the party shouldn't even have to face opponents with 3rd level spells yet. nova isn't a very impressive method to measure power.
my inefficiently geared 7th level female tian inquisitor of Zon-Kuthon did far more damage in a similar circumstance to the OP's gunslinger. back when she was 6th level last week. with weekly william. the DM literally catered the encounters to extend the mileage of my buffs whether he did so intentionally or not. he compiled multiple small encounters into few big encounters. which allowed the little girl to shine quite effectively. we also found what the DM thinks is a big treasure horde to compensate for our lack of found treasure. which included several suits of +3 spiked sharkhide armor to transfer enhancement bonuses from with help from house rules. and several minor items to help us out.
the only permanent magic items my inquisitor owns are
a +1 cold iron spiked chain that involved bonus transfer
a +2 belt of giant strength aqcuired shopping and critting on a diplomacy check
and a ring of protection +2 looted from a bunch of slain ghoul rogues
she also has a nonmagical mithril breastplate and a masterwork silver spikedchain she bought and required extreme luck to purchase.
and a bunch of potions looted from deceaed foes.
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Well players have to worry about multiple encounters per day.THAT is where the metagaming is. Players characters are living a life in a fantasy world. While the PLAYERS know that the GAME may have multiple encounters the CHARACTERS are only trying to live through a combat. If they need to use all their resources to avoid all being killed will they be saying: "No I better save that smite. It would save my life now but I may run into something else later today?"
Not likely. In a combat situation you use what you need to to live.
Similarly, if you are fighting through room after room in an underground catacomb you don't blow yourself up in the first room. You try and save some energy for the next room, particularly if you don't know how many more rooms you have to fight through. If you are in urgent danger you will blow everything but otherwise they are going to do what it takes to make it through the entire day.
Resource management isn't meta-gaming, it's common sense. The character isn't thinking "Hey I'm about out of grit" he would be thinking "I'm going to blow myself and get killed in the next room if I don't take it easy."
He said he dropped the paladin, thief and fighter. That's 3 grit points gained.
Grit (Ex): A gunslinger makes her mark upon the world
with daring deeds. Some gunslingers claim they belong
to a mystical way of the gun, but it’s more likely that the
volatile and dangerous nature of firearms simply prune
the unlucky and careless from their ranks. Whatever the
case, all gunslingers have grit. In game terms, grit is a
fluctuating measure of the gunslinger’s ability to perform
amazing actions in combat, both offensive and defensive.
At the start of each day, a gunslinger gains her Wisdom
modifier (minimum 1) in grit points. Grit goes up or down
throughout the day, but usually cannot go higher than
the gunslinger’s Wisdom modifier (minimum 1), though
some feats and magic items may affect this maximum. A
gunslinger spends grit to accomplish deeds (see below)
and regains grit in the following ways.
Looks like to me you get grit anytime you drop someone. Not just once a day.
Killing Blow with a Firearm: The first time a gunslinger
reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm
attack during the course of a day, she regains 1 grit point.
Such a killing blow must occur in the heat of combat.
Destroying a target or other unattended object, reducing
a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or
reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the
gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does
not regain grit.
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Killing Blow with a Firearm: The first time a gunslinger
reduces a creature to 0 or fewer hit points with a firearm
attack during the course of a day, she regains 1 grit point.
Such a killing blow must occur in the heat of combat.
Destroying a target or other unattended object, reducing
a helpless or unaware creature to 0 or fewer hit points, or
reducing a creature that has fewer Hit Dice than half the
gunslinger’s character level to 0 or fewer hit points does
not regain grit.
lol served
Resource management isn't meta-gaming, it's common sense. The character isn't thinking "Hey I'm about out of grit" he would be thinking "I'm going to blow myself and get killed in the next room if I don't take it easy."
True, but as we both know there is a large difference between using resources unwisely and using what resources you have to simply survive.
In the GS's situation where he is described as taking on an entire group, it would probably be unwise of him not to nova if he wants to even survive the enounter. The encounter did not describe him as having a labyrinth or dungeon to slog through after, so doing as he did would have been appropriate, especially as, if he didn't, he may very well die very quickly to the group.
As for adventurer's, well we all know that your not going to blow a disintegrate on a kobald when a dagger thrust does the trick, but if your being attacked by a far superior opponent who can or will quickly destroy the whole party then your tactcs are going to be burn bright and fast to assure simple survival.
If your entire gaming group is so well informed about the area your in and the obstacles your going to face that you can perfectly assign what resources you need in advance of even knowing what the encounters are (or indeed if there are even going to BE encounters) then I think that maybe your ref is giving you an easier time of it than my ref does.
Then again I play in a simulationist game that is seldom if ever tied to the '4 enounters a day like clockwork' mechanic. We meet what we meet when we meet it, so my game experiences may be vastly different from yours.
If the GS was super effective, the party must have been weak to steel.
I am sad that I understand this reference :(
A fullblade is a v3.0/3.5 weapon is it not?
If you are incorporating non-Pathfinder material, than the playtest was borked before it started.
A fullblade is a v3.0/3.5 weapon is it not?
If you are incorporating non-Pathfinder material, than the playtest was borked before it started.
I disagree. As long as you make it clear what additional material you are using, at the start it is ok. Many groups use house rules, 3rd party material or 3.5 material. To exclude ALL of those groups from playtesting within their games is nonsense. The devs want to see the playtest happen at our actual tables. That includes everything from house rules to play style.