The classes are for the most part fine and all of them perform their role(s) sufficiently well within the concept of a party dynamic. Now, racial balance is another matter entirely. It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.
You've shown me a fighter who saves fail against a wizard 60% of the time, or 50% of the time if they're a little better.Heaven help him if he fights a dwarven fighter (with a +3 higher save throw).Yeah, if he's an improbably stupid wizard who just stands there right out in broad daylight rather than using every trick at his disposal. (The dwarf barbarian may be harder to screw with than the human figher, but neither of them are going to have an easy time finding a wizard Greater Polymorphed into a tiny brownie (base +16 to Stealth) who is further Reduced.
The wizard's investments also bolster virtually everything he does, not just overpower saving-throws (so it's not like it's all wasted if he doesn't connect on a chancy spell).
And you've shown me nothing. Great work everyone.
The classes are for the most part fine and all of them perform their role(s) sufficiently well within the concept of a party dynamic. Now, racial balance is another matter entirely. It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.
This. A thousand times this.
I've seen rogues do well. I've seen kick-ass fighters. I've seen druids rock. I've seen oracles, barbarians, wizards, whatever.....everyone can do their job well if the player playing them is a decent player (with a moderate amount of system mastery and the desire to be good at his role in the group). What I haven't seen is people playing all of the races. I've seen some races, but, honestly, that's where the worst balance problems lie, in my not-so-humble opinion.
misunderstanding my position
That is what happened -- my bad sorry.
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It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.
A human who spends a feat on Iron Will when other races don't just used up about 90% of that 90%. A half-elf gets a similar-to-Iron-Will +2 to will-saves versus most things, a bonus to Perception, a free Skill-Focus to throw at anything he wants (e.g., Perception), low-light vision, and can multi- two favored-classes.
It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.A human who spends a feat on Iron Will when other races don't just used up about 90% of that 90%. A half-elf gets a similar-to-Iron-Will +2 to will-saves versus most things, a bonus to Perception, a free Skill-Focus to throw at anything he wants (e.g., Perception), low-light vision, and can multi- two favored-classes.
Agreed -- or the half elf can get an extra +2 to will saves with dual mind (very nice that).
Humans have nice things going for them -- but they aren't the be all end all of races.
Dwarves are still really good, and so are halflings.
In fact a halfling slinger can really hurt things bad, especially if he goes for the sling and board route (using a light shield specifically so he can reload).
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In fact a halfling slinger can really hurt things bad, especially if he goes for the sling and board route (using a light shield specifically so he can reload).
I'd be interested to see the early-levels build. I've toyed with Rapid Reload and TWF concepts to do things like sling and 5ft in to thwap with a spiked light shield, but it always resulted in something rather tepid (too many fighter levels or too long waiting for feats) versus lots of good old yummy rogue). In the end I have to go back to mithril buckler, composite bow and rapier for the halfling ne'er-do-well, with a feat set aside for Improved Critical in the rapier. Tried & true.
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It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.A human who spends a feat on Iron Will when other races don't just used up about 90% of that 90%. A half-elf gets a similar-to-Iron-Will +2 to will-saves versus most things, a bonus to Perception, a free Skill-Focus to throw at anything he wants (e.g., Perception), low-light vision, and can multi- two favored-classes.Agreed -- or the half elf can get an extra +2 to will saves with dual mind (very nice that).
Humans have nice things going for them -- but they aren't the be all end all of races.
Dwarves are still really good, and so are halflings.
In fact a halfling slinger can really hurt things bad, especially if he goes for the sling and board route (using a light shield specifically so he can reload).
Personally I'm a huge fan of the Aasimar. I wouldn't even mind getting only +2 wis or +2 cha (I'd probably take +2 Cha every time, charisma isn't a dump stat when you want to roleplay), because the native outsider type is better than humanoid. Even if you made them humanoids, I'd still play it, because I like the style. However, if you made it a humanoid and limited it to +2 wis or cha, I'd take issue with it. Because it seems like you are picking on it, like it offends your sensibilities or something.
It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.A human who spends a feat on Iron Will when other races don't just used up about 90% of that 90%. A half-elf gets a similar-to-Iron-Will +2 to will-saves versus most things, a bonus to Perception, a free Skill-Focus to throw at anything he wants (e.g., Perception), low-light vision, and can multi- two favored-classes.
Let's examine, for sake of brevity, the 4 archetypes off of which all classes other classes are more or less based, feasible optimized builds and appropiate racial choices for each.
I. Fighter
A. Archer build: For this build human all the way, the extra feats allow you to buy point blank shot, precise shot, and rapid shot all at level 1.The bonus skill point is huge, especially if you dumped int, which could make it effectively, for example, a +3 bonus if you took 7 int, doubling your skill points available. You are missing out on better vision, but goggles of night can rectify that before too long.
B. Two Hand build: Human again wins out, and for many of the same reasons. Three feats at level 1, plus the bonus skill point are permanent bonus more than worth giving up improved vision which can be rectified by spells and items.
C. Sword and Board TWF: This is the mother of all feat starved builds, human is a no brainer here.
D. Two Weapon build: not quite as feat starved as the aforementioned but feat intesnive to the point that the bonus feat is still your best option, not to mention the extra skill point again quite possibly doubled your total.
II. Cleric
A. Support Cleric: Dwarf is a strong contender here but again the extra feat and skill point are huge for a relatively skill and feat starved class. Human still the best choice.
B. Battle Cleric: A strong argument can be made for half-orc here, no class can make better use of ferocity for example. However in order to get it you give up heavy armor prof AND tougness as level 1 feats, and the bonus feat and skill point for a class starved of both.
C. Archer Cleric: Elf wins out here due to automatic proficiency.
D. Necro Cleric : Not common in good campaigns but popular otherwise. There isn't a single racial option preferable to going human and taking command undead and ability focus: command undead as your level 1 feats. Human all the way.
E. Debuff Cleric: Similiar to support, nothing really offered that outshines the bonus feat and skill point.
III. Rogue
A. Archery Rogue: Human even though this one is close. Elf is nice here for automatic proficiency, but the con penalty combined with feat and skill point loss more than offsets it. Yes, Rogues have plenty of skill points, but the human bonus allows you to lessen your int requirment and put more points into augmenting survivability. Your healer will thank you.
B. Toolbox Rogue: Half-elf is a solid choice here. The perception bonus, free skill focus, low light vision, and better saves fit the mold here. Human is still very competitive, but I can see the argument for half-elf here.
C. TWF Rogue: A feat starved build for which human is nearly a must.
D: Bruiser Rogue: It's probably a wash, but I'll give the nod to Half-orc for automatic prof and intimidate bonus.
IV. Wizard: It comes down to elf vs human and there are solid arguments for both. +2 Dex and int is huge, the +2 to defeat SR stacks with spell penetration, then you throw in bonuses to spell craft (for identification), perception, and low light vision and this is a great choice. However, one can just as easily argue human here. You still get the all important +2 to int, the extra feat and skill point are great for any build variety, and a lot of racial bonuses matter less to a wizard in general because he can duplicate many of these features with spells.
Conclusion: Out of 14 potential builds covering a wide variety of play styles, human is the best choice 10 times, and competitive with the best choice every time. No other race is competitive for more than 3 builds. That's a 3:1 disparity in favor of human for just the common builds of the iconic classes. If that doesn't signal an obvious disparity, then quite frankly I don't know what would.
The classes are for the most part fine and all of them perform their role(s) sufficiently well within the concept of a party dynamic. Now, racial balance is another matter entirely. It would really be nice if human wasn't the optimal choice 90% of the time.Man every time I see this avatar I think, this guy must be saying something real mean. Then I look at it and its like, "oh just a balanced and fair statement".
You're the 3rd person to make essentially the same comment on my avatar. I was looking for something horror-themed because that's my favorite flavor of RPG but I'm going to have to find something more subtle. :P
I'd be interested to see the early-levels build. I've toyed with Rapid Reload and TWF concepts to do things like sling and 5ft in to thwap with a spiked light shield, but it always resulted in something rather tepid (too many fighter levels or too long waiting for feats) versus lots of good old yummy rogue). In the end I have to go back to mithril buckler, composite bow and rapier for the halfling ne'er-do-well, with a feat set aside for Improved Critical in the rapier. Tried & true.
Here are some thoughts about how to go about it:
(20 point buy)Str 14 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 11 Cha 9
Halfling (warslinger) Zen archer Monk 1/fighter 1/monk 1/ Fighter 1
B -- Precise shot
1 -- two weapon fighting
B -- improved shield bash
B -- Perfect strike
3 -- Weapon focus(sling)
B -- Rapid shot
B -- Deadly Aim
Now granted you'll want armor and a shield so some monk abilities are wasted on you, but for that you get good save throws and to skip the point blank feat. I wouldn't worry about any more archery feats until you need improved precise shot and at that point you should be on a double feat level so you'll take point blank and improved precise shot at the same time.
Fill in the levels from there on with mobile fighter in my opinion and grab power attack, improved two weapon fighting, shield slam, etc.
Remember that deadly aim and power attack won't affect the other attack rolls at all so you aren't getting double penalties there.
Another option is build like an archery build at first and then go into the two weapon fighting later:
Halfling (war slinger) Fighter (mobile archetype in my opinion)
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 9
1st: Point blank shot
B: Precise shot
B: Rapid shot
3: Deadly Aim
4: Two weapon fighting
5: Improved Shield bash
6: Improved two weapon fighting
7: Shield slam
8: Power Attack
9: Iron Will
10: Nimble Moves
11: Greater two weapon fighting
12: Shield mastery
One final approach could use the shield in a completely different manner and start from sword and board before working into ranged combat:
Halfling (warslinger) Fighter(shielded)
Trait:Offensive defender
1st: Shield slam
B: Combat Expertise (switch hit for level 1)
B: Two weapon fighting (use a cestus in your sling hand for now if in melee)
3: Deadly Aim
4: Point blank shot
5: Exotic weapon proficiency(madu)
6: Precise shot
7: Rapid shot
8: Power attack
9: Iron will
The nice thing about the last one is you'll be getting a very nice AC from using combat expertise without taking penalties on your to hit rolls until level 8 (madu reduces expertise penalty by 1, as does offensive defender) and you'll get a better bonus from your fighter class abilities too.
With mobile fighter you can ignore the need for specific weapon training since it applies across the board as long as you move.
My intention in posting is not to to argue the rules. I would like to know if other groups have encountered this apparent imbalance and if so, how it has been handled.
I don't like the direction this thread has taken. It appears that the tone has shifted and that the thread no longer serves a purpose in helping adjudicate the apparent imbalance between the classes as was observed by my group (and from the responses, by others, too).
I would appreciate it if disputes were taken elsewhere; while I understand their roots in the discussion, many of the comments lately have been decidedly hostile.
The intention of this thread being posted in the 'Advice' column was that people advise solutions to the problem presented. I thank all of you who actually commented on this, a lot of the input was useful and much appreciated.
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I don't like the direction this thread has taken. It appears that the tone has shifted and that the thread no longer serves a purpose in helping adjudicate the apparent imbalance between the classes as was observed by my group (and from the responses, by others, too).
If a game is 100% DPR Olympian hack and slash in which skill checks and saving-throws never ride-the-fine-line, then a fighter should outshine anyone else at the table -- because fighting is what he does by definition.
I disagree that a "balance" problem exists.
Metamagic rods of persistent spell are rather cheap ...
That did get errata'd.
Although they're still pretty cheap.
I don't really try to boost reflex saves since I normally have enough hit points to deal with it if I make the save, but those darn will saves are not fun at all.
Iron Will +1, Improved Iron Will helps also. You can retry a failed saving throw once per day.
Having the party caster put protection from evil on you is big help also. If he does not want to use his slots then buy the scroll or a wand yourself. Compulsions begone.
Clock of Resistance
Headband of Inspired Wisdom
Tome of UnderstandThese all boost your will saves.
Most of this stuff can be used by other classes too. is not like the paladin or (sometimes) the barbarian saves bonus, which are class features.
Now, players manage to go around it in some way (items, mind blank, protection from evil)so I'm not saying the class i unplayable, but is true that fighters have 1 defensive ability (armor training) wich cannot do anything vs magic, and boos their saves through iron will means give up important feats - and feats are their main feature.
Finally, boosting wisdom makes them less likely to boost intelligence and take the combat expertise line.
To elaborate: I love fighters and my groups use them, but is true: they suck in defense. IMHO a feat with some "magical parry" or similar stuff would be neat.
Are you saying that because another class can do it that a fighter should not do it? If so that is logic I don't understand. Why do I need combat expertise? Unless I am going got the combat manuever feats I can live without it.
They only suck at defense if you allow them to suck. They can have decent saves and contribute to killing the bad guys.
I don't like the direction this thread has taken. It appears that the tone has shifted and that the thread no longer serves a purpose in helping adjudicate the apparent imbalance between the classes as was observed by my group (and from the responses, by others, too).If a game is 100% DPR Olympian hack and slash in which skill checks and saving-throws never ride-the-fine-line, then a fighter should outshine anyone else at the table -- because fighting is what he does by definition.
I disagree that a "balance" problem exists.
I agree with you on this.
@Detect Magic: Maybe it would be better if you gave examples of your group's issue's so we can look at that since not too many other groups have issues.PS:I have only skimmed the thread so I apologize if I missed it.
@Detect Magic: Maybe it would be better if you gave examples of your group's issue's so we can look at that since not too many other groups have issues.
I've already explained our experiences and the majority of posters have agreed that my games have been skewed in the favor of the fighter-types because I don't like using SoD spells on them. Very well, this may be true, but that's not to say I don't use spells/traps on them. I do, just not the kind that end a game.
---Sort of related---
In a friend's Serpent Skull game, I rolled up an archivist bard. I have zero combat ability with this character. He has 8 Str, carries around a quarterstaff, and mostly just uses his performance/aid another. In fact, until last session (about six or seven sessions in) I had managed not to roll a single attack roll. I've got a wand of cure light wounds which I have also put to great use.
Now, outside of combat I have coerced the other survivors into becoming much more friendly around the camp. I've been able to deduce our location and been able to share what I know about the island. I managed to convince the others to pull the bodies from the wreckage, burying them. That sort of thing.
I rather liked the game when it began, but that was before I was told my character is ineffective. He isn't geared for combat, I know - but I didn't think that was all that mattered.
Since then both a PC and an NPC have been killed (one was cut in half, the other decapitated), their blood spraying all over the place. My character, a scholar, unused to this sort of thing reacts badly (as he had when encountering some of those who hadn't been so lucky as to survive the crash). He panics, freezing in combat. He was slow to react. This was intentional; I could just as easily have rolled up a cold-blooded mercenary, but I didn't. I rolled up a rather clumsy, scholar with big ideals. One who has lived all his life in academia, dreaming of adventure. Now, when I played him like this, reacting to the gore, I was told my character was melodramatic and that I wasn't contributing.
So, here's an example where a character concept of mine which I thought would work perfectly in the setting is deemed "ineffective" because he isn't all that and a bag of chips. Just frustrates me that I have to build my character with combat in mind (I don't even like that part of the game a vast majority of the time; most battles are a boring mesh of dice and numbers, which doesn't interest me in the least).
Grumblegrumblegrumble.
@Detect Magic: Maybe it would be better if you gave examples of your group's issue's so we can look at that since not too many other groups have issues.I've already explained our experiences and the majority of posters have agreed that my games have been skewed in the favor of the fighter-types because I don't like using SoD spells on them. Very well, this may be true, but that's not to say I don't use spells/traps on them. I do, just not the kind that end a game.
---Sort of related---
In a friend's Serpent Skull game, I rolled up an archivist bard. I have zero combat ability with this character. He has 8 Str, carries around a quarterstaff, and mostly just uses his performance/aid another. In fact, until last session (about six or seven sessions in) I had managed not to roll a single attack roll. I've got a wand of cure light wounds which I have also put to great use.
Now, outside of combat I have coerced the other survivors into becoming much more friendly around the camp. I've been able to deduce our location and been able to share what I know about the island. I managed to convince the others to pull the bodies from the wreckage, burying them. That sort of thing.
I rather liked the game when it began, but that was before I was told my character is ineffective. He isn't geared for combat, I know - but I didn't think that was all that mattered.
Since then both a PC and an NPC have been killed (one was cut in half, the other decapitated), their blood spraying all over the place. My character, a scholar, unused to this sort of thing reacts badly (as he had when encountering some of those who hadn't been so lucky as to survive the crash). He panics, freezing in combat. He was slow to react. This was intentional; I could just as easily have rolled up a cold-blooded mercenary, but I didn't. I rolled up a rather clumsy, scholar with big ideals. One who has lived all his life in academia, dreaming of adventure. Now, when I played him like this, reacting to the gore, I was...
If you hold back, but the players are not then you will have issues. You can make things harder for them with SoD's. Using spells that restrict their movement, and SoS spells will help. While the damage dealers are being held back blast them with spells and pepper them with arrows. Having minions just to serve as meat shields is also a good way to slow them down.
I understand wanting to have a character concept, but you are also putting the other character's lives in danger by not being more helpful in combat. If this were real life they would probably drop you for a more efficient team member. <--That is not an insult. The game is a combat game to a great extent. Would you mind playing a character that tries to avoid combat, through social skills and/or spells, but will fight if it has too?
I am assuming this is a caster.
I understand wanting to have a character concept, but you are also putting the other character's lives in danger by not being more helpful in combat.
That's just it, this character didn't want to endanger peoples' lives. He didn't take unnecessary risks and advised the party not to do so. But, as he was only one person, he was often ignored. If anything, he was the voice of reason - but the party went and put themselves in danger time and time again.
In combat, as I said, he often used his bardic performance to boost the party's attack/AC/saves, while using aid another and his wand to heal. He just didn't engage in melee himself.
And yea, he reacts to blood and gore. Especially when a friend gets her head lopped off when she's standing right next to him.
I don't think I could play this game if my characters didn't react to things like that. The game isn't just knocking down miniatures; there's an entire psychological element to it.
The game is a combat game to a great extent.
That was one of the largest points I was trying to make in posting: combat is a part of this game, so why give any one class such a huge advantage there in?
Though when I comment on the imbalance between classes when it comes to combat, I am told that the game cannot be solely measured in terms of DPR.
I understand wanting to have a character concept, but you are also putting the other character's lives in danger by not being more helpful in combat.That's just it, this character didn't want to endanger peoples' lives. He didn't take unnecessary risks and advised the party not to do so. But, as he was only one person, he was often ignored. If anything, he was the voice of reason - but the party went and put themselves in danger time and time again.
In combat, as I said, he often used his bardic performance to boost the party's attack/AC/saves, while using aid another and his wand to heal. He just didn't engage in melee himself.
And yea, he reacts to blood and gore. Especially when a friend gets her head lopped off when she's standing right next to him.
I don't think I could play this game if my characters didn't react to things like that. The game isn't just knocking down miniatures; there's an entire psychological element to it.
Well if they went and started a fight then I guess they should think twice before doing so next time. I normally let my players know that talking is often an option before fighting. I don't think your group is used to that. I am playing with similar players now. I just stand in the back and let them charge through the door. :)
The game is a combat game to a great extent.That was one of the largest points I was trying to make in posting: combat is a part of this game, so why give any one class such a huge advantage there in?
Though when I comment on the imbalance between classes when it comes to combat, I am told that the game cannot be solely measured in terms of DPR.
DPR is not the only measure of combat ability. As a caster I can shutdown 1/2 of the battlefield or put a lot of guys to sleep without ever doing any hp damage.
Every class just brings different things to the table. The ability of the player is generally more important than the class. There are classes I don't care for, but I don't want to derail the thread into a class X sucks debate.
Serpent's Skull
The game is a combat game to a great extent.That was one of the largest points I was trying to make in posting: combat is a part of this game, so why give any one class such a huge advantage there in?
Though when I comment on the imbalance between classes when it comes to combat, I am told that the game cannot be solely measured in terms of DPR.
You said that you are playing in Serpent's Skull. There is a "Lord of the Flies" vibe to the place you're at. Your scholar is away from civilization, with no short term hope of being rescued. What if the "shock and awe" of the gruesome events happening to him 'unhinge' him a bit? Or if those events, coupled with relying heavily on scrounging, foraging and hunting - for a character from a comparatively cushy urban lifestyle - kind of 'unlocks' his inner savage?
Exploring the trials and tribulations of going from 'ivory tower type' to 'I must survive, at any cost' is the kind of meme you are looking at undertaking.
You said that you are playing in Serpent's Skull. There is a "Lord of the Flies" vibe to the place you're at. Your scholar is away from civilization, with no short term hope of being rescued. What if the "shock and awe" of the gruesome events happening to him 'unhinge' him a bit? Or if those events, coupled with relying heavily on scrounging, foraging and hunting - for a character from a comparatively cushy urban lifestyle - kind of 'unlocks' his inner savage?
Exploring the trials and tribulations of going from 'ivory tower type' to 'I must survive, at any cost' is the kind of meme you are looking at undertaking.
I thought about taking a level of barbarian for exactly this reason! Haha.
Serpent's Skull
** spoiler omitted **
It seems you have a hack and slash group. They will learn or die a lot.
It seems you have a hack and slash group. They will learn or die a lot.Serpent's Skull
** spoiler omitted **
It seems you have a hack and slash group. They will learn or die a lot.Serpent's Skull
** spoiler omitted **** spoiler omitted **
Yea, I do not enjoy the style they have chosen. It seems we're supposed to get to the combat scenes, rushing past everything else. Serpent's Skull is kind of rail-roady, too (since it appears there's only one way off the island).
All AP's are railroady to an extent. You will find out more details later as you play the AP more.