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My gm runs illusions as, until you actively stop to disbelieve, then they are real. The problem is our gm isnt using an actual spell, he just has us fight an illusion taking full damage, spending ALL of our spells and abilities.
This wounldnt be NEARLY as bad if we would EVR have any reasn to think the group of 2 ogres, 6 hobgoblins and a demon were an illusion and not the NEXT group of 2 ogres at leaste a dozen bugbears are not. so please if you know where the rules for illusions are, please, tell me
you don't stop to Disbelieve, you get a will save to Disbelieve whenever you interact with the Illusion.
Illusionary monsters are interacted with quite a bit in combat.
Walls and things, not so much, but again you touch it, yell at it, etc, and get the will save to disbelieve.
Although, as GM it's his place to say "you have to use a standard action to focus on disbelieveing" , that's just a terrible House rule In my honest Opinion.
so In short: you interact with it (beyond just looking at it), you get the save.
you don't stop to Disbelieve, you get a will save to Disbelieve whenever you interact with the Illusion.
Illusionary monsters are interacted with quite a bit in combat.
Walls and things, not so much, but again you touch it, yell at it, etc, and get the will save to disbelieve.
Although, as GM it's his place to say "you have to use a standard action to focus on disbelieveing" , that's just a terrible House rule In my honest Opinion.
so In short: you interact with it (beyond just looking at it), you get the save.
thanks a TON
i actually just found the ruling in tho book not 3 minuties before your post but i still have one questionIf you say fail the save... will said illusionary monster deal DAMAGE
the way i'm thinking it's a no
and yeah my DM has no concept of scaling. the game is FULL of problems like an enemy casting ice storm at a third level party the only reason me and the friends involved are still in the game is because the dm is our FIRST dm.
a figment won't deal damage, it has no substance.
however something conjured trough shadow-magic is quasi real, can be disbelieved for less effect.
with the "standard-action house roule" that comes from the opinion of an official during 3.5 times and has often been used as the rule of thumb. The standard action is not the time you need to disbelieve but the time to "interact" should at least take. As "looking at it" is a free action it wouldn't count. But if the character says, I look carefully at the details of that wall, it would last probably a standard action, and the character would get a check. But these are house-rules and your GM might have a different interpretation.
Taking damage from illusions (other than shadow magic) is just wrong, but look at the bright side of it, you (the players) also have access to illusion magic so go nuts.
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For full illusion (moving image+sound) really well maid I usually allow temporary non lethal-damage for those who fail their saving throw... it's the "You think you are wounded..." stuff ;)
so if someone touches an illusonary wall and fails his save, you think it feels real?
not taking damage when the fist meets your face is a very reliable indicator that it's not real, ... or that you fight a min/maxed halfling wizard.
so if someone touches an illusonary wall and fails his save, you think it feels real?
If it's a tangible sort of illusion, one with the [shadow] tag, then yes. And I suppose one could argue that so long as you do not apply any pressure to the wall, the illusion persists. But you don't need a save when faced with proof you're dealing with an illusion.
not taking damage when the fist meets your face is a very reliable indicator that it's not real, ... or that you fight a min/maxed halfling wizard.
Correct. Over at Wizards they had a 4-part "Rules of the Game" article on illusions, which may help to clarify matters.
The "It's real if your mind thinks it's real" deal doesn't apply to Pathfinder, and the GM has to state that he does this as a house rule.
He also has to understand that this will make illusionists real powerful and scary, especially if the disbelief mechanics get some retarded houseruling, too.
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The "It's real if your mind thinks it's real" deal doesn't apply to Pathfinder, and the GM has to state that he does this as a house rule.
Hm. I'm going to have to research this now. Up to your post, KY, I wasn't too concerned about my implementation. (Which was based on 2e and then 3.xe style illusions which can inflict illusionary damage.)
He also has to understand that this will make illusionists real powerful and scary, especially if the disbelief mechanics get some retarded houseruling, too.
Well, if you don't rule it this way, persistent image is pretty much a joke. (And PI seems popular in the AP I'm currently running.)
why would persistant image be a joke?
okay, normally lower lvl illusions will do the trick just as well, but illusions are still cool, and a neat feature (if you can trick your GM a bit) "thermal components" isn't coded.
With the right argumentation you could create invisible superhot fire ...
Or at least enough heat that a character standing 50ft from it thinks it's superhot fire.
The "It's real if your mind thinks it's real" deal doesn't apply to Pathfinder, and the GM has to state that he does this as a house rule.Hm. I'm going to have to research this now. Up to your post, KY, I wasn't too concerned about my implementation. (Which was based on 2e and then 3.xe style illusions which can inflict illusionary damage.)
He also has to understand that this will make illusionists real powerful and scary, especially if the disbelief mechanics get some retarded houseruling, too.Well, if you don't rule it this way, persistent image is pretty much a joke. (And PI seems popular in the AP I'm currently running.)
Illusion spells of the shadow sub-school can inflict actual damage, but you automatically get a will-save, and if that save is successful, the spell only deals a certain percentage of the simulated spell's damage.
Beyond that, illusions don't do any direct harm.
That doesn't make them a joke, though. They're just not attack spells in the usual sense. They're spells for trickery, as they should be. You can make a wall appear where no wall is, hiding an entrance. You can make a floor appear where none is, concealing the very real pit beneath. Since the pit is real, it will inflict real damage. And you WILL fall through the illusory floor.
Back in 3.0 I had a DM that ran illusions like this as well. It was very annoying. It turned out all the damage was non-lethal since it was all in our heads. Still not RAW though, and it was doubly annoying since it was never annouced that illusions worked that way. Bad DM, no cookie.
If your DM insists on running illusions this way, remember the limitations (unless he squirms around these too).
Most of the illusion spells require concentration. Anything you're activly fighting definitely will, you can't have a scripted illusion be THAT intelligent. Find the caster and disrupt him. He can't be far (though perhaps well hidden), and he needs to have a clear view of the "battle" to intelligently direct his illusions.
Figments can't change the appearance of something, only create an image wholly (so the mage can't make himself appear to be a dragon, but he could hide behind the image of one). Presumably the same applies to sounds as well (can add, but not remove ambient noise). If you can spare the action against something you suspect (which is probably everything at this point), squirting a waterskin at something should give it away as well. The illusion can change to appear wet, but can't prevent the sound of the water hitting the ground.
The area of the spell is chosen when you cast and doesn't move. The images that you're "fighting" can move around freely within the area, but can't leave it. It's a big area, and shapeable, but if you're fighting out in the open just try running away and circling around.
If your DM is handwaving or ignoring this stuff though, then what's the point? He's essentially using Major Image to replicate nearly every Conjuration spell. What good is Summon Monster IX if anything it can create, Major Image can do better?
So how does this work. For example I put up an illusionary wall in front of you. As soon as you interact with it you get a save. So you try to reach up and climb over it, you fail your save. Well obviously you cannot climb on the wall that is not there, so what happens? If it just disappears when you touch it, what is the point of the save? But on the other hand if I say wanted to put a floor over a pit, and then they tried to walk over it and failed their save are they safe? That doesn't make sense either.
This happened in a home game last night, so we house ruled that since he failed he just assumed that he couldn't get over it (couldn't grip it or whatever) and the bad guy wound up taking a couple of rounds to run around it (it was a big wall in difficult terrain)
Thoughts?
So how does this work. For example I put up an illusionary wall in front of you. As soon as you interact with it you get a save. So you try to reach up and climb over it, you fail your save. Well obviously you cannot climb on the wall that is not there, so what happens? If it just disappears when you touch it, what is the point of the save? But on the other hand if I say wanted to put a floor over a pit, and then they tried to walk over it and failed their save are they safe? That doesn't make sense either.
This happened in a home game last night, so we house ruled that since he failed he just assumed that he couldn't get over it (couldn't grip it or whatever) and the bad guy wound up taking a couple of rounds to run around it (it was a big wall in difficult terrain)
Thoughts?
If the wall illusion is a figment, then as soon as someone tried to climb over it (i.e., interacted with it) they would realize it's an illusion. Same for the floor-over-the-pit illusion. It can't support weight as it has no physicality to it whatsoever. It is merely there to fool the sight sense.
If they were shadow magic, though, it would be another story.
In general, it's the subtle effects of a figment illusion that make them more useful. A regular 10' high brick wall invites attempts to climb over it. A 20' high perfectly smooth wall (i.e., unclimbable without appropriate gear) with razor sharp burrs at the top is another thing entirely. YMMV, of course.
So how does this work. For example I put up an illusionary wall in front of you. As soon as you interact with it you get a save. So you try to reach up and climb over it, you fail your save. Well obviously you cannot climb on the wall that is not there, so what happens? If it just disappears when you touch it, what is the point of the save? But on the other hand if I say wanted to put a floor over a pit, and then they tried to walk over it and failed their save are they safe? That doesn't make sense either.
This happened in a home game last night, so we house ruled that since he failed he just assumed that he couldn't get over it (couldn't grip it or whatever) and the bad guy wound up taking a couple of rounds to run around it (it was a big wall in difficult terrain)
Thoughts?
If the wall illusion is a figment, then as soon as someone tried to climb over it (i.e., interacted with it) they would realize it's an illusion. Same for the floor-over-the-pit illusion. It can't support weight as it has no physicality to it whatsoever. It is merely there to fool the sight sense.
If they were shadow magic, though, it would be another story.
In general, it's the subtle effects of a figment illusion that make them more useful. A regular 10' high brick wall invites attempts to climb over it. A 20' high perfectly smooth wall (i.e., unclimbable without appropriate gear) with razor sharp burrs at the top is another thing entirely. YMMV, of course.
I see, that helps and makes sense.
I tend to think of figment illusions as holograms that you can't see through (unless you attempt to disbelieve in them without interacting with them, such as a dragon illusion flying around overhead). You can see (and/or hear) them, but they aren't real and can't do anything to you other than to cause you to harm yourself by avoiding them in some predictable way. /salute!
A spellcaster uses Mirage Arcana to create the illusion of a tower stronghold (20'x20'x180').
The PCs, failing their saves upon entering, split up to explore the tower. Some party members go up the stairs, others go into the basements, while still others explore the main floor.
What happens? Are they all somehow magically floating in the air/buried underground? Are they all in the same 20x20 area of ground, but totally unaware of each others' presence (effectively hiding in the illusion)? If it is the latter, what happens if they bump into each other? Do they simply not feel it? Do their brains/senses ignore it as if it didn't happen?
If a third party were to come across them, and made their save, would the first group be seen all just be standing around in a catatonic state, caught up in the illusion?
A spellcaster uses Mirage Arcana to create the illusion of a tower stronghold (20'x20'x180').
The PCs, failing their saves upon entering, split up to explore the tower. Some party members go up the stairs, others go into the basements, while still others explore the main floor.
What happens? Are they all somehow magically floating in the air/buried underground?
The moment that the tower tries to support weight, the PC instantly disbelieves it. The PC's foot falls through it! Anyone who observes this also disbelieves the illusion.
Are they all in the same 20x20 area of ground, but totally unaware of each others' presence (effectively hiding in the illusion)? If it is the latter, what happens if they bump into each other? Do they simply not feel it? Do their brains/senses ignore it as if it didn't happen?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here, but basically the PCs typically wouldn't try to walk through a wall. If they get pushed through the figment/glamer, the "pushed" PC instantly disbelieves and all PCs who see it instantly disbelieve.
If a third party were to come across them, and made their save, would the first group be seen all just be standing around in a catatonic state, caught up in the illusion?
When you pass your save versus a figment/glamer, you can see an outline of it -- but you know that it's an illusion. You can see all the creatures in the outline.
A spellcaster uses Mirage Arcana to create the illusion of a tower stronghold (20'x20'x180').
The PCs, failing their saves upon entering, split up to explore the tower. Some party members go up the stairs, others go into the basements, while still others explore the main floor.
What happens? Are they all somehow magically floating in the air/buried underground? Are they all in the same 20x20 area of ground, but totally unaware of each others' presence (effectively hiding in the illusion)? If it is the latter, what happens if they bump into each other? Do they simply not feel it? Do their brains/senses ignore it as if it didn't happen?
If a third party were to come across them, and made their save, would the first group be seen all just be standing around in a catatonic state, caught up in the illusion?
Saving Throws and Illusions (Disbelief): Creatures encountering an illusion usually do not receive saving throws to recognize it as illusory until they study it carefully or interact with it in some fashion.
A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline.
A failed saving throw indicates that a character fails to notice something is amiss. A character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.
So it looks like from this that there's no direct mind manipulation from (most) illusions. It's a hologram, and as such as soon as you interact with it in a physical manner you're almost certainly just going to know it's fake.
So that illusionary wall, when you try to climb it your hands go through. Pretty powerful proof it's not there- auto disbelieve.
The fake floor over the pit? When you walk over it you fall through it- again auto disbelieve. Shame you still fall through though. You should get a will save to realize right before you step onto it though.
Now that army of monsters? Nowhere in the image spells can these illusions actually give you the perception of being injured. As soon as one stabs you,or you stab one, you will pass through them. Auto-disbelief.
The Big Tower? Probably messes up as soon as you reach for the front door. On this scale, it might be a few interactions (or studying) to recognize the whole thing is fake and not just small parts like this door, that wall, etc.
On top of all this the OP is describing some pretty powerful illusions (with at least sight sound and movement and a good number of them). Maybe your GM just needs a poke, since you said he was new, to make him realize this. Having illusions spawned from nowhere is about as cheap as having fireballs flung at the party from nowhere.
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Mirage Arcana strikes me as being somewhat similar to Star Trek: The Next Generation's holodeck (albeit with safety protocols on). The crew could run around a whole city inside that thing and yet be contained in a relatively small room the whole time. The environment in all ways seems real to them (it has tactile and visual elements), but of course it isn't. They just think it is. Are they actually going up or down stairs as they interact with their perceived environment? No.
The moment that the tower tries to support weight, the PC instantly disbelieves it. The PC's foot falls through it! Anyone who observes this also disbelieves the illusion.
Except Mirage Arcana and Hallucinatory Terrain are glamer effects...
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
...and as such makes the characters believe they are entering and exploring a tower. Provided they fail their saves for interaction, they truly believe they are opening the front door, feeling the doorknob in their hands, climbing up the stairs, rummaging through old musty tomes, etc.
They aren't doing any of that of course, but their own senses are tricking them into believing that they are.
They will never "automatically disbelieve" as you describe as it's all in their heads to begin with.
It's kind of like invisibility in that it's a mind-affecting effect (that affects the whole world no less), but not really.
EDIT: The holodeck combined visual illusions with partially real fabrications (like those created by replicators), and thus operated more like shadow illusions.
After reading and discussing glamers, I think I have a much better idea of how Mirage Arcana would work.
The PCs would see the tower off in the distance (the illusion fills an area, but can be seen by anyone at any distance that a real building could be) and don't get saves.
They approach the tower, arriving at its front door a short while later. Unless they spend an action to investigate it closely, they don't get saves.
The PCs open the front door (or struggle with it if it is locked). They get saves for interacting with the illusion. Assuming they all fail, they eventually get inside (possibly expending resources to do so).
They all stand within the 20x20 area of the illusion that would be the base floor of the tower (effectively hiding inside the illusion). At this point they are trapped in the illusion in their mind until they physically leave the area in some manner or somebody makes their save. Even if they do leave the building, their mind is still tricked by the magic (if they go outside and look back they will still see the tower). Even if they split up and search multiple floors of the tower, they all remain trapped within the illusion created by their minds and thus actually believe they are split up even if they may all be standing next to each other.
This brings some new thoughts and questions to mind however:
1) At what frequency should they be making saves to disbelieve? Every time they take an action? Every round? Every minute, ten minutes, or hour? Every time they interact with the illusion (that is, they must leave the area, return and interact with it again to get a second save)?
2) If a third party arrived on scene, they would clearly see the tower (as it effects the entire world). Say said party recognized the tower's flag as belonging to a long hated enemy, and fireballed its ground floor from a distance, hoping to topple the incredibly tall narrow-looking tower. As an illusion that exists only in the minds of those observing it, it cannot physically stop the fireball or any other effect. Do the PCs standing within the illusion even notice that they just got blasted? And if so, is it enough to defeat the illusion* (or at least allow another save)--or did the room they were in suddenly seem to explode for no explicable reason (it's easy enough to say it was a spell trap they overlooked)? Does the fireballer believe that his fireball detonated against the wall, rather than exploding amidst the adventurer's whom he cannot see?
* This is one of the few instances where I MIGHT allow someone to auto-disbelieve the illusion.
Ah I skipped over the link on the big glamer spell and just saw the illusion part and your description of a tower- that's a different beast. The OP was talking about regular illusions- but since his GM isn't even using actual spells it's just noise on our part to argue whether those are glamers, quasi real, or holodeck nonsense.
Mirage Arcana is still an illusion, a glamer (meaning it just works on something else) It includes tactile elements, so as long as you're going according to normality you'll be able to open doors.
I figure you'd get one save at the beginning once you start walking through the fake building.
However, the spell externally alters perception, it doesn't directly alter people's minds- everyone is seeing/feeling/hearing the same thing. The illusion has tactile elements, but it still isn't there. You would feel walls, but if you were bull rushed you'd go right through. You'd feel like you'd hit a wall- but in all the absurdity of Pathfinder most people still don't get exploded through walls, and should probably get another save to recognize that was an awfully unsturdy wall. Likewise, it can't support weight. If the building had stairs that didn't mask something for you to stand on, you couldn't go up them. Maybe it appears every stair collapses when you try to walk. Probably should get another save. Pass you see the glamer for what it is.
Now if you had a skeletal building or some ruin to work off, that spell is going to hold up a lot longer than throwing it down in an empty field.
I think Illusions end up needing a lot of GM fiat. It's a little difficult to make them hard and fast.
The way Illusions appear to work, I don't see ever going through a dungeon crawl and have the GM be able to say "surprise! It was all an illusion!" The more it gets interacted with the sooner something is going to happen where even masking all the senses the illusion won't be able to keep from the simple fact that it's not there and can't support real things. Even if the illusion responds (I keep setting bottles on an illusion table... they keep falling off the table and smashing?), I slip down the 'stairs' that's really a muddy slope and through a wall.
Illusions are good for keeping things away, buying time, and luring... But the more attention you draw to them the shorter they'll last. An illusion that's going to get interacted with a lot such as a make believe castle should be viewed not as "will it fool them" but "How long can I make it fool them?"
Mirage arcana is no more external than invisibility.
I've seen invisibility described by game designers as "the most powerful spell" because it "is essentially a mind-affecting effect without the descriptor that effects everyone in the world without a save."
I see mirage arcana as working similarly (and thus could be described similarly). It should be a mind-affecting effect, but isn't. IT JUST WORKS.
If it was any other way, it wouldn't really work at all. Imagine if invisibility forced a save to see through it (no pun intended) every time someone looked at you. It would be a pointless spell.
In short, illusions work differently than any other spell because they say they do, a necessity for them to even function.
Mirage arcana is no more external than invisibility.
I've seen invisibility described by game designers as "the most powerful spell" because it "is essentially a mind-affecting effect without the descriptor that effects everyone in the world without a save."
I see mirage arcana as working similarly (and thus could be described similarly). It should be a mind-affecting effect, but isn't. IT JUST WORKS.
If it was any other way, it wouldn't really work at all. Imagine if invisibility forced a save to see through it (no pun intended) every time someone looked at you. It would be a pointless spell.
In short, illusions work differently than any other spell because they say they do, a necessity for them to even function.
But Invisibility is external. The only internalized illusion I know of is a Phantasm. The rest create various forms of unreal but perceivable things. Figments are just not there, glamers alter something, veiling it. Never mind shadows which are sort of real...
Wouldn't Invisibility make more sense if it worked that way? You would just be invisible, unseen until you interacted with them (ie attacking, but also opening doors, etc). Then we could do away with all those gamey elements like it breaking when you attack, and instead give the subjects a will save when they are interacted with. Maybe weaker forms of invisibility would let you get a save as soon as you would normally see them. Sounds more to the pattern of the game to me...
Right now Invisibility is kind of wonky to keep it from getting abused at low levels... I can pick a guy's pocket, put a wall of fire in the way, but if I stick out a leg to trip him I poof into sight?
Glamers and figments aren't mind affecting. A sharp mind can, however, connect the dots and realize something doesn't add up.
Maybe I'm just stuck on my old programming days; I'm opposed to the use of globals.
What happens if an illusionist bent on revenge against a bunch of nobles, invites them all to his illusory 20x20x180 tower "for a party" which is actually a horrific trap?
Say there are more guests than could possibly fit in the 20x20 area that comprises the first floor? We've already established that they cannot go up to higher floors (even if they think they are), so what happens to anyone coming into the building that wouldn't otherwise fit? Are they shunted out and left wondering what happened? Or do they just stand in or near the doorway, convinced they've entered the building?
If it is the latter, what would more party goers perceive as they approach the door step overflowing with party guests?
Want to cross a chasm? Create an illusion of a bridge and voluntarily fail your save.
Want to cross a chasm? Create an illusion of a bridge and voluntarily fail your save.
Works just fine with shadow illusions, not so much for other kinds.
What happens if an illusionist bent on revenge against a bunch of nobles, invites them all to his illusory 20x20x180 tower "for a party" which is actually a horrific trap?
Say there are more guests than could possibly fit in the 20x20 area that comprises the first floor? We've already established that they cannot go up to higher floors (even if they think they are), so what happens to anyone coming into the building that wouldn't otherwise fit? Are they shunted out and left wondering what happened? Or do they just stand in or near the doorway, convinced they've entered the building?
If it is the latter, what would more party goers perceive as they approach the door step overflowing with party guests?
Seems more like the party goers would find themselves unable to get beyond the first floor than someone who made the save seeing a bunch of people in the air, suspended by loony toons physics... big thing about the unreal illusions is they can't support weight, so doing something like creating stairs where there's nothing to walk up causes a problem.
As for what people would see, I guess you'd see a cramped first floor with some bloody nosed patron constantly rerolling the will save because every time he tries to climb the stairs he falls down them. Someone who made the save would see a bunch of fools in a translucent tower, with some gullible dork repeatedly climbing up a small pile of rocks and walking off them.
Assuming a glamer, a person would not "fall down the stairs." That would only happen if the stairs were covering a hole or some such.
They would most likely walk in place all the while thinking they were walking up the stairs. They also would not get a new save just for walking up the stairs (at least no more than they would for interacting with any other aspect of the illusion) since they can feel feel the wood beneath their feet, hear it creak, smell its polish, and see the next step.
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illusions have always been interesting. I have always ruled that illusions can't cause damage but at the same time i don't allow them to be bypassed without a save. For example an illusionary wall can't be walked through unless you save. Your mind prevents you from walking through it. I do this because as much as people try you just can't keep the meta game out of it all together and illusions suffer from that.
Assuming a glamer, a person would not "fall down the stairs." That would only happen if the stairs were covering a hole or some such.
They would most likely walk in place all the while thinking they were walking up the stairs. They also would not get a new save just for walking up the stairs (at least no more than they would for interacting with any other aspect of the illusion) since they can feel feel the wood beneath their feet, hear it creak, smell its polish, and see the next step.
Why would you walk in place? Mirage Arcana's glamer doesn't effect the people or creatures in them, though the glamer can react to what they do.
If I try to walk through an invisible object (glamered) I don't walk in place and think I've walked through it. I bump into it. Reverse applies, if it's not there but an illusion and I get knocked into it I go through it.
Otherwise you could just throw up Mirage Arcana around some poor dude of a staircase and trap him indefinitely with no save, because every time he tried to go up or down he'd just walk in place.
An illusion's inability to physically effect movement or gravity is at their base- which is why illusions with a disbelief save have that "if provided with proof auto-disbelieve" caveat. If I move forward five feet, I go forward. The illusion doesn't fool me into marching in place. It can make me think I can't go forward, make me really not want to, but can't actually stop me.
For my example, I just figured the illusionist would at least make the stairs where there was a little something for people to climb up and fall down, helping to maintain the illusion. Sure, they wouldn't be able to go up a level, but if he put the stairs where there was nothing anyone trying to use the stairs would just walk through them.
Want to cross a chasm? Create an illusion of a bridge and voluntarily fail your save.Works just fine with shadow illusions, not so much for other kinds.
That's sort of my point. In two sentences I demonstrated the original premise of typical illusions doing damage etc to be absurd. You can't step on the illusion; you'll fall through. Similarly the illusory sword fails to hurt you because it's not real. That constitutes overwhelming evidence that you were just hit by an illusion. Blah, blah, blah. Only now the point is taking longer to convey.
Had the abuses of voluntary save fails been brought up to the original poster's DM at the table, they would've been much better off.
Why would you walk in place? Mirage Arcana's glamer doesn't effect the people or creatures in them, though the glamer can react to what they do.Assuming a glamer, a person would not "fall down the stairs." That would only happen if the stairs were covering a hole or some such.
They would most likely walk in place all the while thinking they were walking up the stairs. They also would not get a new save just for walking up the stairs (at least no more than they would for interacting with any other aspect of the illusion) since they can feel feel the wood beneath their feet, hear it creak, smell its polish, and see the next step.
Because if you didn't the illusion would fail entirely the moment someone attempted to jump on a table or go up the stairs, which I don't believe to be the intent of the spell.
If I try to walk through an invisible object (glamered) I don't walk in place and think I've walked through it. I bump into it. Reverse applies, if it's not there but an illusion and I get knocked into it I go through it.
Yes.
Otherwise you could just throw up Mirage Arcana around some poor dude of a staircase and trap him indefinitely with no save, because every time he tried to go up or down he'd just walk in place.
Except there is nothing stopping him from stepping off the illusory staircase (which exists only as far as his perceptions are concerned) and walking away from the illusion. It is stationary, don't forget. I suppose you could trap him in the illusion of a box, but you could do that with other illusions just as easily for as long as it takes them to make a save.
An illusion's inability to physically effect movement or gravity is at their base- which is why illusions with a disbelief save have that "if provided with proof auto-disbelieve" caveat. If I move forward five feet, I go forward. The illusion doesn't fool me into marching in place. It can make me think I can't go forward, make me really not want to, but can't actually stop me.
Tell me then: How would mirage arcana even work? Or even hallucinatory terrain? The moment you added a second floor (or even a step, or table, etc.) or a hilltop, the spell would fail if anyone went near the obstacle. That obviously isn't the way it's supposed to work. In previous editions, you could use hallucinatory terrain to make people think they were waste deep in a swamp when they were actually on an open plain. Though the mechanics might have changed slightly, the intent of what the spell is supposed to do is the same.
For my example, I just figured the illusionist would at least make the stairs where there was a little something for people to climb up and fall down, helping to maintain the illusion. Sure, they wouldn't be able to go up a level, but if he put the stairs where there was nothing anyone trying to use the stairs would just walk through them.
And that's where we disagree. I also believe the illusion wouldn't be able to support the subject (or anything else), but they would nevertheless be fooled into thinking they had walked up some stairs (and onto another floor, another room, etc.).
Remember that some shadow-based illusions are fully solid; they just have fewer hit points.
Create a wall of ice using shadow conjuration. If you disbelieve, it's still just as solid. It only has 20% the hit points of a normal wall of ice. That can be used for bridges and barriers quite easily.
Because if you didn't the illusion would fail entirely the moment someone attempted to jump on a table or go up the stairs, which I don't believe to be the intent of the spell.
It's a glamer. If you want a table and expect people to try and jump on it, put a barrel there, or put the table where a fairly sizable rock really is. Otherwise yeah, if you try to climb on the table it'll break. All the furniture will unless you glamer something roughly furniture like.
But how often do people walk on tables?
Tell me then: How would mirage arcana even work? Or even hallucinatory terrain? The moment you added a second floor (or even a step, or table, etc.) or a hilltop, the spell would fail if anyone went near the obstacle. That obviously isn't the way it's supposed to work.
Don't make buildings with a second floor if you don't have a place for them to go to and expect them to try. You could make a whole town of buildings in an empty field- some with multiple stories, but you'd have to rig it so that people wouldn't try to go into the tall ones (or at least not try to go past the first floor).
They could open doors, rummage through chests, pick up an old shoe and sniff it. Heck, they could even push around an old wheelbarrow. But if someone tries to sit in and get pushed around...
In previous editions, you could use hallucinatory terrain to make people think they were waste deep in a swamp when they were actually on an open plain. Though the mechanics might have changed slightly, the intent of what the spell is supposed to do is the same.
That wouldn't be a problem. With the tactile illusions and olfactory ones, trudging through a swamp in an actual field would be workable. Making it an ocean on the other hand would have problems, as you'd either be unable to sink or unable to get to the surface.
And that's where we disagree. I also believe the illusion wouldn't be able to support the subject (or anything else), but they would nevertheless be fooled into thinking they had walked up some stairs (and onto another floor, another room, etc.).
Apparently so. But you've pointed out the flaw yourself in this. If you fill the first floor, and someone tries to climb the stairs, where does he go?
In order for the illusion to persist he has to be able to leave the first floor somehow. If he just stands there thinking he left, everyone else can clearly see he's still standing there. And if they see him go up the stairs, where the heck did he actually go?
I think the disbelief save comes when reality violates the perceived illusion.
I'd say a person who was trying to walk up nonexistent stairs that he thought were there, would be moonwalking on the spot.
That was my stance as well.
Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.
Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
The illusion cannot support weight. Therefore, you fall through it as soon as you try to put weight on it. Falling through it provokes a save at the very least, but I'd classify that as "proof of an illusion" unless the illusion is adaptive enough to have the stair break under your foot. On the other hand, it just proves that that step (or maybe all the stairs) are an illusion.
I'm with Sekret_One on this.
Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.Glamer: A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.The illusion cannot support weight. Therefore, you fall through it as soon as you try to put weight on it. Falling through it provokes a save at the very least, but I'd classify that as "proof of an illusion" unless the illusion is adaptive enough to have the stair break under your foot. On the other hand, it just proves that that step (or maybe all the stairs) are an illusion.
I'm with Sekret_One on this.
Except glamers trick your senses and as such only really exist in the minds of those perceiving them. Your foot isn't going through the step of the stairs because it isn't actually there to begin with. It exists only in your perceptions--in your head. All of it. As such, it can also trick you into thinking you are walking up stairs even when you aren't.
An illusion that can trick all of your five senses is going to be nearly infallible (especially in a fantasy world where most anything can happen anyways). Simple things like stairs and bar dancing isn't going to be enough to defeat it, and it shouldn't--it is a pretty high level spell after all (on par with long range teleportation, outsider binding, and raw creation magic, etc.).
It's about as effective as the invisibility spell (or an SEP field*) in that it effects the perceptions of everyone who comes across it, without really allowing a save or a chance to avoid it.
The technology involved in making something properly invisible is so mind-bogglingly complex that 999,999,999 times out of a billion it's simpler just to take the thing away and do without it....... The "Somebody Else's Problem field" is much simpler, more effective, and "can be run for over a hundred years on a single torch battery."
This is because it relies on people's natural predisposition not to see anything they don't want to, weren't expecting, or can't explain.
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Except glamers trick your senses and as such only really exist in the minds of those perceiving them.
Glamers trick the senses, but they are not automatically mind-affecting spells. The object actually does appear to change. Mindless creatures will still fall for the illusion. If there were cameras, they would capture the illusion. Patterns and Phantasms are specifically mind-affecting, Figments, Glamers, and Shadow aren't.
An illusion that can trick all of your five senses but not support weight is going to be nearly infallible, until I put weight on it. Then it falls apart. I don't think I'm putting weight on it even when I'm not, because it's not mind-affecting.
I never said it was mind affecting, only that it was similar to mind-affecting effects (since it is tricking your senses).
Also, Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Wisdom (one's perception) does. That's why it works on mindless creatures.
Also, if the illusion is capable of tricking all of your senses, it is capable of making you think it can support weight (by giving the sensation of solidity, while also concealing the fact that the object ended up on the floor and not the table).
That's the thing. If all of your senses are fooled, YOU are fooled. There is very little way around it.
The very idea that a spell can do so much, but then is so easily overcome by something so simple (and bound to happen) kills verisimilitude.
I refuse to believe that was the intent.
I never said it was mind affecting, only that it was similar to mind-affecting effects (since it is tricking your senses).
Also, Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Wisdom (one's perception) does. That's why it works on mindless creatures.
Fair enough. It still can't trick the senses beyond the limits of illusions, though.
Fair enough. It still can't trick the senses beyond the limits of illusions, though.I never said it was mind affecting, only that it was similar to mind-affecting effects (since it is tricking your senses).
Also, Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Wisdom (one's perception) does. That's why it works on mindless creatures.
And that's where we disagree: You think illusions (glamers in particular) are far more limited than I do.
I'd say a person who was trying to walk up nonexistent stairs that he thought were there, would be moonwalking on the spot.
That was my stance as well.
But that makes the illusion an internalized hallucination. The illusion can can make a fortress, make a bowl of soup, have the taste of soup, but it cannot make me think I'm walking when I'm not. It's basically a disguise over reality, not a dream.
And just to further simplify the whole tower issue, make it an illusion of a 2 story, 10 by 10 room with a ladder to the second floor.
4 people go in filling the first floor. 1 Guy climbs the ladder, which 'should' free space on the 1st floor. 5th guy walks in.
What happened in the illusion?
If every time you did something that would violate the illusion you just went catatonic and 'thought' you did it, illusions would very much be mind affecting. Secondly, there would be no way to disbelieve the illusions since every time you were about to get evidence you'd freeze in place and everyone would see the auto-corrected version.
And that's where we disagree: You think illusions (glamers in particular) are far more limited than I do.Fair enough. It still can't trick the senses beyond the limits of illusions, though.I never said it was mind affecting, only that it was similar to mind-affecting effects (since it is tricking your senses).
Also, Intelligence has nothing to do with it. Wisdom (one's perception) does. That's why it works on mindless creatures.
That does appear to be what it comes down to. I don't think either of us is likely to convince the other, but I'll throw a few quotes out there in a half-hearted attempt to make my point (I'm in a rush right now).
Some quotes I base my stance on:
Illusion spells deceive the senses or minds of others. They cause people to see things that are not there, not see things that are there, hear phantom noises, or remember things that never happened.
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements.
A glamer spell changes a subject's sensory qualities, making it look, feel, taste, smell, or sound like something else, or even seem to disappear.
Nowhere in those quotes does it support the idea that it affects minds at all, which would be required to make you think you were able to do something that you couldn't. Therefore, as soon as you attempt to do something the illusion doesn't support, you realize you can't do it.
Nowhere in those quotes does it support the idea that it affects minds at all, which would be required to make you think you were able to do something that you couldn't. Therefore, as soon as you attempt to do something the illusion doesn't support, you realize you can't do it.
Invisibility is a glamer that targets a single subject and yet effects the WHOLE WORLD's perceptions somehow, despite them not being targets of the spell. I'm basically just saying that other glamers work the same way.
Glamers that affect all your senses could easily give you the perception that you are walking up stairs even when you aren't.
It's better to think of most illusions as holograms than universally mind-affecting. They create light and sound and sensation but aren't solid.