The majority of the argument seems to be about the rationalization of gunpowder in a fantasy setting. I'll agree with 3rd here that if Sam Colt had been born a few hundred years before, he most likely would not have done what he did,
"...that we are like dwarfs on the shoulders of giants, so that we can see more than they, and things at a greater distance, not by virtue of any sharpness of sight on our part, or any physical distinction, but because we are carried high and raised up by their giant size." - Isaac Newton and John of Salisbury.
Inventions are begat from previous inventions. Electricity flowed from steam power flowed from water power flowed from muscle power.
Even so, leaving that aside, the fact that the gunslinger is MECHANICALLY WEAK, EXPENSIVE, and that the BULLETS ARE CATCHABLE is still the crux of any anti-gunslinger argument. See my previous posts for examples, however to present a new point here.
Let us stack a Longbowman, a Gunslinger with a musket, and a Heavy Crossbowman side-by-side, each of them has a +3 to Dex, and a +1 in BAB. They have weapon focus and rapid reload for those it would help. They see a target at 2,000 feet, and let us assume the target is in heavy armor and running, with an AC of 17. They wait until the target enters maximum range, 1,200 feet for the Heavy Crossbowman, and can fire at a -18 penalty, but due to the target's running the effective penalty decreases to a -16. In that next round the target will close to 995 feet, in a best case scenario for the target. At that point the Longbowman can engage, since 1,000 feet for a non-composite bow is its maximum range. For the next 6 rounds, the target will continue to close at a speed of 90 feet/round. On the seventh round after the Longbowman engaged, and the 9th round after the Heavy Crossbowman engaged, the Gunslinger will start firing. For the next 4 rounds all of our shooters can engage before the target closes to melee. At that point we should stop and tally the results.
Assuming a roll of 15 each time; I will calculate hits and average damage. (Each gets a +5 to his attack roll, so would roll a 20 each turn.)
Distance: 1115, 1025, 935, 845, 755, 665, 575, 485, 395, 305, 215, 125, 35.
Heavy Crossbowman: 13 shots, 4 hits; 2 vs 15 (10th range), 4 vs 15 (9th range), 6 vs 15 (8th range), 6 vs 15 (8th), 8 vs 15 (7th), 10 vs 15 (6th), 12 vs 15 (5th), 12 vs 15 (5th), 14 vs 15 (4th), 16 vs 15 (3rd), 18 vs 15 (2nd), 18 vs 15 (2nd), 20 vs 15 (1st); Total Damage: 22
Longbowman: 11 shots, 3 hits; 2 vs 15 (10th range), 4 vs 15 (9th range), 6 vs 15 (8th range), 6 vs 15 (8th), 8 vs 15 (7th), 10 vs 15 (6th), 12 vs 15 (5th), , 14 vs 15 (4th), 14 vs 15 (4th), 16 vs 15 (3rd), 18 vs 15 (2nd), 20 vs 15 (1st); Total Damage: 13
Gunslinger: 5 shots, 1 hit; 2 vs 15 (10th range), 6 vs 15 (8th), 10 vs 15 (6th), 14 vs 15 (4th), 20 vs 15 (1st); Total Damage: 6
This should conclusively show that the gunslinger is waaaaay under-powered. Also this is if the Longbowman doesn't move at all, just wasting his move action. If he cared to prolong combat, he would get a total of 16 shots off, and would get 5 hits for 22 damage, equaling our Heavy Crossbowman, while the other two still get the same number of shots/hits.
What more evidence do you need?
Genius trumps time. Some people advance humanity despite history instead of as a result of it. Last I heard, it was debatable if the periods of slow advancement between advancement explosions were necessary, or if proper conditions + right people are more important than workhorse science. For raw discovery that is, for proper purposement of revelations the grind is obviously necessary.
Again, look at what Isaac Newton , Oppenheimer, and Einstein said. Nope, it was necessary for advancement. Now I'm no omnipotent god, able to say yes or no to that assertion, but the men who where making these leaps say yes. Think about it, inspiration springs from previous work, and without that, what will make you think, 'Huh. I bet I could do it better!'
here's my idle thought.
Someone previously suggested that black powder could be rationalized as to only be able to be manufactured in a null magic zone.
that brought up an interesting idea
we keep considering gunpowder as just...well gunpowder
but what if it were more than that? what if the powder wasn't just charcoal, sulpher and saltpeter?
Those of you who have played FFXI, might remember the 'Quick Draw' ability, that let you fire off elemental damage shots.
Lets make gunpowder itself more fantasy based, as well as less prone to 'barrels of gunpowder solve any situation'
Maybe the gunpowder is shattered crystaline dust combined with alchemical properties or something.
I think this'll be a key concept to both up damage for gunslingers, and end some of the debate.
Like perhaps a 'soothing' gunpowder that removes misfire chance, or one that has elemental damage in it.
like a hellfire powder that belches out a stream of fire when 'shot'
Because this got lost in the conversation I'm quoting it cause the idea definitely has some merit.
If not this then maybe a function that allows you to increase mis-fire chance to increase damage
Or hell why not both of these ideas, variable gunpowders and overloaded guns sounds less boring and could bring the gunslinger to where he should be
Because this got lost in the conversation I'm quoting it cause the idea definitely has some merit.
If not this then maybe a function that allows you to increase mis-fire chance to increase damage
Or hell why not both of these ideas, variable gunpowders and overloaded guns sounds less boring and could bring the gunslinger to where he should be
It depends on what the new powder does. Much of the issue is in the fact that guns have such a short range and a long reload time. Should both or one be overcome, the class might be more viable.
Another point of concern would be that the Gunslinger is already an expensive class, and would this new powder be cheaper? If not, then even if the magical powder solves the technological issue behind its probable non-existence, it doesn't solve the other issues.
Now I think this may be going somewhere, but a powder that could be put into a gun that would work for multiple shots, that would make it to where you could go 5 shots or so before you reload, and could couple that with a scope or whatnot that would increase range, the gunslinger might start being viable.
Does that mean though, that it becomes more expensive? I don't know. This might be a possible solution.
It depends on what the new powder does. Much of the issue is in the fact that guns have such a short range and a long reload time. Should both or one be overcome, the class might be more viable.
Another point of concern would be that the Gunslinger is already an expensive class, and would this new powder be cheaper? If not, then even if the magical powder solves the technological issue behind its probable non-existence, it doesn't solve the other issues.
Now I think this may be going somewhere, but a powder that could be put into a gun that would work for multiple shots, that would make it to where you could go 5 shots or so before you reload, and could couple that with a scope or whatnot that would increase range, the gunslinger might start being viable.
Does that mean though, that it becomes more expensive? I don't know. This might be a possible solution.
Even without multiple shot powders you can have things like flamethrower powder for cone effect and a fireball style area effect powder.
Fill your musket with alchemical glass shards? bam 1d3 bleed damage
Multi-shot powder would definitely help but would probably be the more expensive kind.
As for cost yeah I agree regular powder is soo expensive it is hard to balance this out
Even without multiple shot powders you can have things like flamethrower powder for cone effect and a fireball style area effect powder.
Fill your musket with alchemical glass shards? bam 1d3 bleed damage
Multi-shot powder would definitely help but would probably be the more expensive kind.
As for cost yeah I agree regular powder is soo expensive it is hard to balance this out
It really would depend all on Paizo. It depends if they change the powder/shot price, if so that solution could work.
All in all, it's an interesting idea that one realizes is rather silly upon further consideration.
Unless, of course, you stake out a place in your campaign for them... which is the only thing that really matters when it comes to justifying why there may be guns in a fantasy RPG. Everything else is just rationalization of a particular viewpoint with which not everyone is required to agree.
Think of the rule books as being setting neutral and they become sets of tools, to be included or excluded for individual campaigns. If you don't think the gunslinger fits, don't use it in your games. But don't try to argue it away based on your fantasy preconceptions if Paizo thinks it could be a cool addition to the game and people seem to want it.
And let's not even start on Mystara... (scottish liches living next to vikings living next to albino werewolves wearing sunglasses living next to Mongols living next to gnomes in biplanes living above elves worshipping a nuclear physicist living under WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING!?!)
That sounds incredibly awesome. Or maybe it is because Mikaze posted it? ;)
Did the albino werewolves wear top hats?
The issue here is that gunslingers belong to westerns, not high fantasy. Roland of Dark Tower series, probably the most iconic version of high fantasy gunslinger, is struggling against overwhelming odds in a surreal landscape of ruined civilization.
I really don't know what to say other then "That sounds pretty high fantasy."
And that's not Golarion, as Golarion is much better grounded in its own reality.
No see Golarion has space alien elves and literally devil worshipping nazis. Not much reality there to be grounded in.
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Did the albino werewolves wear top hats?
Actually...maybe...
The boxed set I remember the albino werewolf prince-type guy from was Glantri, which seemed to be mostly Venice but was really really mishmashed as far as culture went. Like Spanish elves. Not elves that were a vague analogue of Spaniards but rather straight up Spanish elves. I'd recall more but the big thing that drowns out those other details was that it came with an audio CD meant to set the mood for a short Glantri-based adventure, complete with exactly the caliber of acting you'd expect from such a product.
Mystara is weird. Golarion, Eberron, Forgotten Realms...they all pull from a lot of genres and sources, and they really do mash a lot of seemingly at-odds elements together, but they take efforts to have it all make some sort of sense. They try to apply some sort of logic to the setting. Mystara runs in the opposite direction. It really is completely bonkers.
They even have cheaply made jello-mold golems! And they come in four flavors!
It's also the setting of the Arcade games! It was much more subdued there.
The arcade games owned
Did the albino werewolves wear top hats?Actually...maybe...
The boxed set I remember the albino werewolf prince-type guy from was Glantri, which seemed to be mostly Venice but was really really mishmashed as far as culture went. Like Spanish elves. Not elves that were a vague analogue of Spaniards but rather straight up Spanish elves.
Like Zevran, then? :p
I'd recall more but the big thing that drowns out those other details was that it came with an audio CD meant to set the mood for a short Glantri-based adventure, complete with exactly the caliber of acting you'd expect from such a product.
Mystara is weird. Golarion, Eberron, Forgotten Realms...they all pull from a lot of genres and sources, and they really do mash a lot of seemingly at-odds elements together, but they take efforts to have it all make some sort of sense. They try to apply some sort of logic to the setting. Mystara runs in the opposite direction. It really is completely bonkers.
They even have cheaply made jello-mold golems! And they come in four flavors!
It's also the setting of the Arcade games! It was much more subdued there.
Well, I'll have to check the setting out one day. I really like when some old genres get mixed up a bit. :)
The world of Dark Tower does not operate according to the same logic. Half of the story relies on dream-like event sequence - it would be difficult to expect that laws of economy operate there in the same way as in Golarion.
Ok so magic.
Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill p. high fantasy there.
Give them technology to manufacture usable guns and you're going to change the face of the world in two generations, tops.
And yet the power to literally talk to god won't change anything at all?
BS.
BS.
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
I would use the actual word in all caps and bolded if I could.
Screw this, and this stupid, stupid, stupid idea that guns will CHANGE THE UNIVERSE FOREVER and yet freaking magic doesn't.
I can make a wizard that creates perpetual energy. Clerics can talk to god firsthand. Druids can single-handedly end the very concept of a drought.
But guns? Now that changes things!
Golarion doesn't follow it's own rules because no fantasy setting follows it's own rules. The only setting that even tried to look at what having actual magic in a setting might do was Eberron, and even they leaned far more into what's cool over what would be "realistic." Because that's what every fantasy setting is in the end - the writer(s) going "What's cool?"
There is no realism and there is no verisimilitude once you introduce magic, especially not on the scale of D&D magic. There is no internal consistency in a game where you have magic capable of reshaping the entire universe fifty times over and yet "nope still just Medieval Europe."
The world of Dark Tower does not operate according to the same logic. Half of the story relies on dream-like event sequence - it would be difficult to expect that laws of economy operate there in the same way as in Golarion.Ok so magic.
Stiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiill p. high fantasy there.
Give them technology to manufacture usable guns and you're going to change the face of the world in two generations, tops.And yet the power to literally talk to god won't change anything at all?
BS.
BS.
BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
EEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS.
I would use the actual word in all caps and bolded if I could.
Screw this, and this stupid, stupid, stupid idea that guns will CHANGE THE UNIVERSE FOREVER and yet freaking magic doesn't.
I can make a wizard that creates perpetual energy. Clerics can talk to god firsthand. Druids can single-handedly end the very concept of a drought.
But guns? Now that changes things!
Golarion doesn't follow it's own rules because no fantasy setting follows it's own rules. The only setting that even tried to look at what having actual magic in a setting might do was Eberron, and even they leaned far more into what's cool over what would be "realistic." Because that's what every fantasy setting is in the end - the writer(s) going "What's cool?"
There is no realism and there is no verisimilitude once you introduce magic, especially not on the scale of D&D magic. There is no internal consistency in a game where you have magic capable of reshaping the entire universe fifty times over and yet "nope still just Medieval Europe."
+1 luck bonus
Absolutely amazing, sir... Absolutely amazing. (Now lets rationalize how miracle works...)
"By Heracles, this is the end of man's valour!"
— King Archidamus of Sparta on seeing the catapult
I do love Eberron and its commonplace industrial magic.
If guns were to fit right at home in a setting, Eberron would be it. House Cannith would easily make guns.
Using Eberron as evidence for arguement, magic would easily speed up the creation process of firearms. The Artificer class is all about making things, and I'm sure more than one man with the Mark of Creation would become obsessed with this nifty new way to put a hole in someone's chest.
Magically creating mundane items is a thing in Eberron. Heck, we have the Warforged, a sentient race of robots that while magically made are not inately magical themselves.
There is no niche in which (other than Golarion's magic free zone. Also, no offense Paizo, but I thought the rules were neutral as far as that went.) for black powder to evolve. Not just expensive, or inexpense, but utterly nicheless. In the same sense of the word that the current US Army doesn't have a gun that shoots knives.
Gun powder dominance came about in the world when it could out-range the competition, out kill the competition, and be reliable and cheap. What that means in Pathfinder terms, it must be better than swords and shields.
Actually, guns aren't the only reason for wanting gunpowder- it has an entirely seperate use in mining, quarrying and demolition. I can't think offhand of applicable spells, nor do I think a sufficiently powerful (non-dwarf) spellcaster is going to want to work in a mine or quarry. They'd probably want too much pay too. So I don't see developing the powder is an issue. After that, you're looking at dedicated tinkerers(/mad scientists) working at prototypes until something feasible develops.
So I don't think it's about gunpowder and prototype development, but at what point it becomes worth it to make the prototypes on a large scale.