Anyone get sick of the haste book keeping and extra actions?
What extra action?! Haste does not give extra action since the introduction of 3.5. +1 to hit, AC, Reflex save and additional attack never were bookeeping problem for me.
Summoners get it as a 2nd-level spell, true, but they get 2nd level spells only 1 level before wizards get their 3rd-level spells, so all it does is give him a slight edge.
The haste spell is quite nice, especially for larger parties with many characters that use weapons instead of magic, since that 1 extra attack can be quite nasty, but I don't have a problem with the party getting that boost, or with the extra bookkeeping.
Buy your wands of haste from summoners. :P
Buy your wands of haste from summoners. :P
That's brilliant! I hadn't noticed that summoners had haste as a 2e level spell. Much better for my sorcerer to buy a wand then to take it as a spell known.
At the level range you're at now (5-7) haste is a pretty strong mechanic. It won't be so bad in the future. . . mainly because the game starts to assume all melee characters have it (through boots, weapon property, etc).
I love haste.
The other thing to remember is that the extra attack from haste only activates on a full-round attack.
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Even so, under 3.0 haste there was not a lot of bookkeeping. The fighter types used the extra action to move then get a full attack or a full attack plus one extra attack. The caster's cast an extra spell. The cleric might cast a spell and then make a full attack.
Everything would resolve on the player's turn so there really was no problem.
And when I got to use it with caster npcs then the players really had to look out. I once had them fight a sorceror and his monk friend and both were hasted and stoneskinned. Man was it epic. And they were hunting for that monk after he ran off at his amazing monk hasted speed. Never found him though. He just kept running.
So does the OP just not like buff spells that help out martial characters or what? Its not even a spell you can actually 'spam' as you are likely only casting it once a combat. How is casting a good spell once a combat spamming?
So does the OP just not like buff spells that help out martial characters or what? Its not even a spell you can actually 'spam' as you are likely only casting it once a combat. How is casting a good spell once a combat spamming?I love buff spells. What I don't like is waiting for 12 actions to go by instead of 6 for the action to come around the table. And then to have to roll 14 attacks instead of 7 for the NPCs.
Haste is so good compared to everything else on the Summoner spell list, I'm not sure why they bothered with anything else on it. It might as well read, "all summoners take haste as soon as they can cast level 2 spells."
Um, huh? Haste doesnt grant additional actions, it grants an extra attack as part of a full attack. And certainly haste is good. It always has been. But so is invisibility, barkskin, and glitterdust. I am certain most summoners will take haste to buff their eidolons but it isnt their only worthwhile second level spell.
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I wouldn't have a problem with haste if it only affected 1 person, like pretty much every second level spell. If bull's strength and invisibility affected multiple people. Haste is obnoxious because it works on the group.
DPR goes up way more from a single casting of haste than it does from a single casting of Bull's Strength.
Cranewings, did you read the posts above? Haste doesn't give you extra actions, it only gives you an extra attack if you are full attacking. It benefits melee classes, and pretty much that is.
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Cranewings, did you read the posts above? Haste doesn't give you extra actions, it only gives you an extra attack if you are full attacking. It benefits melee classes, and pretty much that is.I wouldn't have a problem with haste if it only affected 1 person, like pretty much every second level spell. If bull's strength and invisibility affected multiple people. Haste is obnoxious because it works on the group.
DPR goes up way more from a single casting of haste than it does from a single casting of Bull's Strength.
Sorry, I thought they were playing word games. Of course I know it only applies to full attacks.
Bull's Strength grants +2 to strike and damage, to one character. Haste provides another entire attack during a full attack to the whole group. Even if only one fighter was hasted, even if he only took that attack twice in four rounds, it would still probably be as good or better than Bull's Strength. Instead, everyone gets it.
You really have to look back to 3.0 to understand why this is. In 3.0 bull's strength lasted an hour per level but only gave 1d4 strength. People got tired of having to cast it three or four times to get the full bonus, though, so they lowered it to a minute per level and maxed the bonus. If it were still an hour per level then I'd have an extremely hard choice to make between haste and bull's strength (until I got a belt of strength, anyway).
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Cranewings, did you read the posts above? Haste doesn't give you extra actions, it only gives you an extra attack if you are full attacking. It benefits melee classes, and pretty much that is.I wouldn't have a problem with haste if it only affected 1 person, like pretty much every second level spell. If bull's strength and invisibility affected multiple people. Haste is obnoxious because it works on the group.
DPR goes up way more from a single casting of haste than it does from a single casting of Bull's Strength.
Sorry, I thought they were playing word games. Of course I know it only applies to full attacks.
Bull's Strength grants +2 to strike and damage, to one character. Haste provides another entire attack during a full attack to the whole group. Even if only one fighter was hasted, even if he only took that attack twice in four rounds, it would still probably be as good or better than Bull's Strength. Instead, everyone gets it.
Honestly, martial classes doing too much damage was never a major problem in 3.5 - even with haste, other buffs and an xmas tree of magic items.
It's the casters who are a problem. Mostly because they don't need haste and items to be totally awesome.
Haste can be a very powerful spell but there are a number of ways to get around the extra attack.
1. You can have your own wizards, summoners, sorcerers etc. cast haste on their group, dispel on the party, or all sorts of various debuffs on the party.
2. Additionally, creatures with damage resistance are never a bad thing.
3. Don't engage in a 15 minute adventure day. In other words have a number of encounters everyday and make your casters second guess the use of every spell. They should be asking themselves "Do I need to cast haste on this encounter or is there something worse coming"
4. roughen up the terrain that your party is moving through. Make getting up close and personal to the enemy harder. so that even a hasted character is making slow progress.
5. battlefield control.
Cranewings, did you read the posts above? Haste doesn't give you extra actions, it only gives you an extra attack if you are full attacking. It benefits melee classes, and pretty much that is.I wouldn't have a problem with haste if it only affected 1 person, like pretty much every second level spell. If bull's strength and invisibility affected multiple people. Haste is obnoxious because it works on the group.
DPR goes up way more from a single casting of haste than it does from a single casting of Bull's Strength.
Sorry, I thought they were playing word games. Of course I know it only applies to full attacks.
Bull's Strength grants +2 to strike and damage, to one character. Haste provides another entire attack during a full attack to the whole group. Even if only one fighter was hasted, even if he only took that attack twice in four rounds, it would still probably be as good or better than Bull's Strength. Instead, everyone gets it.
Thats because in reality it isnt a 2nd level spell. It is a 3rd level spell. But like most 6 level casters, it gets a few key spells at a lower spell level since they dont get the slots untill later. Buffs are a key part of the summoners list, so he gets it a little earlier.
Bull's Strength grants +2 to strike and damage, to one character. Haste provides another entire attack during a full attack to the whole group. Even if only one fighter was hasted, even if he only took that attack twice in four rounds, it would still probably be as good or better than Bull's Strength. Instead, everyone gets it.
If only bull's strength was a 2nd level spell and haste was 3rd.
Or haste lasted for 1 round/level and bull's strenght lasted for 1min/level.....
Haste is a common spell and remember if they get to Haste, so do you.
And while I would not do this ALL the time, the occasional enemy spellcaster who counterspells or negates the effect with a successful slow spell may shake things up a little and cause the summoner to learn new tactics.
Force your melee characters to MOVE. They lose the full attack action then thereby losing the bonus attack. Don't have your melee types standing still. Hit and move. Sure, there are feats and archtypes that can help them keep the full attack, but do all your characters have them?
I just do not have issues with haste, It is a common spell in my game and the cohorts cast it regularly. It is much weaker than it used to be.
Greg
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First you need to not worry about haste. Second your enemy spell casters should consider slow. If your PCs build around haste then slow will take the wind out of them.
Third, Haste is rounds per level. Have the enemy casters use expeditious retreat and run away. A first level spell vs a 2nd/3rd spent. Summon monster before they run away lets the pcs use their haste against expendable mooks.
Battlefield control spells are great against haste. Slow them down, make them waste rounds. Grease, web, the magic tentacles one, entangle, spike growth, stone growth.
You are worrying about something that is so easily countered that it is not even worth it. My players used haste all the time. I had a sorcerer who dropped it at the start of combat when it only affected one person. He used his extra action to haste the wizard. He used his two actions to haste the fighter and buff the fighter or himself. In 3.5 they still used it but after a few fights of easy counters and controls they just dropped it for more useful spells. They still pulled haste out for some boss fights but that is about it.
Everytime I have had a problem with some spell or tactic that my players used I have found an easy solution that always existed but I overlooked. As DMs we tend to settle into certain patterns and the players challenging us makes us look outside those patterns for solutions that improve our game.
Another issue I have with haste is how the bonuses it gives don't make sense. Double running speed, another attack, nothing else significant?
Believe me, if all things were equal, size, skill, strength, but one fighter can move twice as fast as the other, it wouldn't be any contest at all. For haste to be what it says it is, it should also have a +5 to strike and armor class, minimum.
"I'm so fast that last night I turned off the light switch in my hotel room and was in bed before the room was dark."
It gives +1 to hit and +1 to AC as well as an extra attack. It already does give a huge bonus to fighting. All other things being equal a hasted fighter will hands down beat a non-hasted fighter. So where exactly is the issue here? Because it doesnt give the bonuses all in one form?
Death of 100 cuts. I don't like the style of its bonuses. I don't like that it effects multiple people. I don't like summoners casting it with a level 2 spell slot. It is just too much.
OK, I'll bite. What do you mean exactly by the comments of "Death of 100 cuts" and "style of its bonuses"?
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It seems you just want to hate the spell beyond all rational discussion. That is fine.
Your players have agreed to ban it. That is also fine.
If your only problem is that it is a 2nd level spell for summoners then move it to 3rd level for them and call it a day. It would be a reasonable fix that keeps the spell in the game.
Otherwise it seems that no one else has a problem with it. You as DM can fix it so it works for your group. So far the fix has been to ban it but that is fine. If everyone you play with likes that situation then call it a day.
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Haste as a second level spell for summoners I think is a bit much. They can cast it one level sooner than a Wizard, two levels sooner than a sorcerer. Not only that but they get to cast it more times per day than a wizard ever will, having more second level slots than a wizard (baring specialization). Haste is arguably one of the most powerful 3rd level wizards spells giving it to a 6th level caster as a 2nd level spell useable at 4th level was a mistake in my opinion.
Not seeing how the summoner is casting it "more times per day than a wizard ever will".
At 5th level not counting bonus spells from CHA/ INT:
So essentially Summoners have an edge on casting haste for exactly one level, 4th.
It seems you just want to hate the spell beyond all rational discussion.
This seems to be the crux of it. All I keep reading is "Haste is a horrible, awful spell that breaks games clear in half and ruins everything from flavor to mechanics. Why won't anyone agree with me?"
I'm paraphrasing, of course.
Haste is a great 3rd level spell, and a great "2nd" level spell. On a delayed system it only enters the game a level earlier, so I'm hardly quaking in my boots about that. Despite its greatness, though, it's not a spell worth casting for every battle.
In tough battles it's great because it can end things before they get out of hand. In battles with a lot of mobility or difficult terrain it helps as well because it doubles your move speed. In "cake" battles it's just not worth the 3rd level slot, much less a wizard/sorcerer/bard/summoner's action to cast. There are too many other things a character can do in the first round of combat, and haste is a spell that quickly loses potency the longer you go into a fight without it.
A practical tip: If the bookkeeping and time spent resolving extra attacks is what is bothering you, speed up the process by using extra dice and roll all attacks and dmg at once.
For instance, if your fighter gets three attacks with his longsword when hasted, you load up the dice cup with:
1 red d20 and 1 red d8
1 green d20 and 1 green d8
1 blue d20 and 1 blue d8
Make sure you agree (and preferably write down) which dice is the 1st, 2nd and third attack, so you don't suddenly get in an argument about which roll got the +12 bonus and which got the +7.
This should speed up things a bit.
If my players are starting to abuse something all of the time I make sure the run into the reason not to. Let the melee characters chase some enemies further away from the casters than they normally would, because of increased speed. Then have something sneak up on the caster, something big and nasty. And have a slight cave in from the monsters roar that it creates difficult terrain everywhere. No 5' steps and half movement speed.
That might be a bit excessive but it would be fun, and show that they always need to be looking for new strategies.
Also I aggree with JaceDK about multiple dice. Anyone who has more than one attack knows that they need more than one set of d20 and weapon damage. Who can count up their hit and damage rolls the fastest, is always something we do at the table.
I like haste. It's one of the few spells my group was using tactically for the whole party.
Way back in the day we had a player who had a good mind for spells, and chose stuff that would benefit the situation, even if by only benefitting a single other PC. Then, we lost him, and another guy stepped up, and the only thing he cared about was blowing everything up.
Finally, we got an additional player in, who could think more strategically than that, and one of the first things he started doing was hasting everybody. It was quite a refreshing change.
I admit, most of the other players have to be reminded to take advantage of it, but that it was there was nice. It can get boring to watch everybody slash away while one guy just blows the world away around them. Haste is a good jumping-off point for strategic and tactical thinking.
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If my players are starting to abuse something all of the time I make sure the run into the reason not to. Let the melee characters chase some enemies further away from the casters than they normally would, because of increased speed. Then have something sneak up on the caster, something big and nasty. And have a slight cave in from the monsters roar that it creates difficult terrain everywhere. No 5' steps and half movement speed.
That might be a bit excessive but it would be fun, and show that they always need to be looking for new strategies.
Also I aggree with JaceDK about multiple dice. Anyone who has more than one attack knows that they need more than one set of d20 and weapon damage. Who can count up their hit and damage rolls the fastest, is always something we do at the table.
This sort of GMing makes me think of a great article Mark from Spes Magna wrote on screwing over players.
"How My Ranger Stopped Encountering Undead"
If players find something that works it's not the GMs job to stomp them down.
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Its also a side show. My party usually talks for an hour and a half most games, and fights for about 2 hours. I try to get them through at least 3-4 fights. I can't constantly be throwing enemies at them doing crazy stuff. It gets stupid.
Indeed. Players enjoy encounters that are *more challenging* that doesn't mean you deliberately nerf the fun/ interesting things that characters are able to do, it means you up the anti a bit.
Sometimes it makes sense to take away their goodies, but it should be a rare thing, not a habit.
Well I have to be honest I usually never do stuff that takes away something like a favored enemy, etc. But design an encounter, or an enemy that takes advantage of their weakness and you can see if the players will rise to occasion. I am always trying to get them to panic and come up with new ideas and it works. The ideas or creativity that they come up with often surprise me.
Haste is limited though. Unless you get it off in round 1, chances are you will have to leave out one or two memebers. No-one can be more than 30 feet apart.
Also 1rd/lv. For a lv4, that's 4 rounds. Running out really fast. Bull's Strength and its cousins can last over multiple battles.
And finally, it is only as good as the party is it cast upon. A party mostly consisting of casters will not benefit too much (improved movement is the biggest boon). And if you have a bunch of martial characters, well, then you NEED haste to even get close to clearing the gap in power.
Until both the wizard and the summoner reach there max spells slots per level. Wizard only EVER gets 4 spells slots per level. Summoner gets 5.
Specialization and bonded object would like to have a word with you.