I think I prefer james' limitation on evolutions just because I think you should be able to get more attacks by using weapons. Because if you are just limited to a certain number of attacks in a single round, then multiweapon fighting becomes a non option. I might as well have my 7 attacks be at full attack bonus to hit and full str bonus to damage.
which is what I get if I go with 7 primary natural weapons.
Why would I instead go with 7 weapon attacks at -2 to hit and 1/2 str bonus?
A) That's why I specified weapon attacks in my rewrite are treated as primary natural attacks if the Eidelon is proficient with the weapon. Zero sum.
B) Reach weapons combined with reach arms could be one reason to use weapons over natural weapons. Specific weapons with properties is another reason.
I think a proper fix allows for multiple worthwhile builds. I do not see how an absolute attack limit would fix that? You are just changing the best build.
Maximum number of attacks are built into the system. A 20th level fighter has a maximum attack rate. That rate pretty much comes out to about... dah dah, 7. With haste. 4 iteratives, 2 off-hands, 1 haste. An archer can squeeze out an extra bit of damage by firing two arrows at once, but overall, the maximum number of attacks is about 7. I see no reason why the eidelon should be allowed to make 7 natural attacks and 10 HTH attacks with melee weapons.
On natural attacks, I would have preferred if they got some monkish unarmed damage going instead of actual natural attacks, so that their attacks with claws, tentacles and the like followed all the normal rules for iterative attacks and not the natural attack rules.
On the other hands, I think that should had been done from the beginning, with all monsters. Get rid of the special rules for natural attacks and make number of attacks solely based on BAB (with the exception of TWF and the like).
ah I did not see you mention that weapons were treated as primary natural weapons.So no need for the multiweapon fighting feat? How would this interact with other regular weapon feats? like lets say we go with a ranged weapon eidolon using a bunch of bows, can he many shot on a full attack action? The benefit of limiting how many times you can take certain evolutions is that it doesn't change the bigger rule sets(how attacking works for example).
The limitation doesn't necessarily need to be arms only. It could be, you can take the limbs evolution 2 or 3 times or some other number that is satisfactory. Tentacles could present an issue but they are secondary and do little damage. Perhaps if you include that the tentacle evolution can only be taken 6 times and each time you take the limb evolution this is reduced by 2.
Manyshot would work exactly the way it does for a fighter archer, he'd get one extra attack. The feat itself says 'with your first shot', not 'your first shot with each bow'. The feat would give one extra arrow. Note the eidelon would need a pair of arms for each bow, 14 in total at level 20 (13 or 14 evo points).
No offense, but I hate your and James's idea of limiting purchasing of evo's. And the reason is in your post above. The only way to make sure the eidelon's not getting too powerful that way is to bring algebra into the equation
A + B + C + D = X, where X is the number of attacks you can have. A is the number of arms you can have for weapon attacks, B is the number of claw attacks you can make, C is the number of tentacles, D is a modifier, if B > 0 and C > 0 then D = -2. Blech! You shouldn't need a degree in algebra to do this.
One reason I suggested setting the # of attacks as an absolute limit is that it is simple and the player is going to naturally tend towards having N+1 to N+3 attacks (where N is his max at this level). He might get a couple of extras to have some options (like a silver MW sword, bites, claws, etc) but generally, he's going to build for his max attacks and that's it. Very simple, no extra algebra involved trying to balance attack evolutions against some 'ideal'.
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Yes, it's an exception to the rules, but, it's a very easy to remember exception (the part about primary/secondary and weapon attacks), but it also reigns in power and cuts the arguments to a minimum. 'But I want to learn TWF and use it'. Fine, you still only get X attacks. 'But but but...' . X attacks.Yeah, but why have the exception to the rules at all?
Why not instead limit the number of arms that an Eidolon can have, etc?
This would be just as limiting without having to contort the rules out of place to do so.
It might take more work on the rules for eidolon design, but imho that's where the burden should be.
Personally I'd say give the Eidolons a class chart, and specific choices at given 'levels' from which to choose. Putting them on a simple point system for everything was a huge mistake.
-James
I think it is fine with a few FAQ clarifications to address those seeking loopholes.
None of the full builds posted so far are that impressive when they are actually broken down and compared with a level equivalent from another class.
btw james, when a fighter uses elemental body 4 or giant form 2 to get that 8 extra str, does he lose his armor and shield bonus to ac? In polymorph it says it does. So when you were talking about using that before, you were sacrificing 14 armor and 7 shield bonus, for 2 more to hit and 6 more na?
Elemental form would lose the armor and shield but the giant form gets to keep it (humanoid shapes have equipment grow with them)
but does that include armor? I thought magical armor and weapons didn't change size. Also what about losing all armor and shield bonuses? How does that line remain relevant if you can still get an armor bonus from worn armor and shields(the main way people get armor and shield bonuses)?
It can with spells, I am not sure if giant form explicitly says so but enlarge person grows items with you. May be where I got the idea, I could very well be wrong claiming all humanoid forms.
ah ok I reread it again and got a better feel. For any polymorph spell that changes you into any of a bunch of non humanoid forms, your gear melds into your body and you lose armor and shield bonuses. So elemental body 4 ruins your ac but giant form 2 should not ruin it.
Just to make it more confusing.
Anything that provides a constant bonus continues to work. :)
So... a ring of shield spell continues to provide shield bonuses. Belts continue to provide stat bonuses, and bracers of armor continue to provide an armor bonus.
So theoretically, if you used a shield ring and bracers, you'd retain your armor bonus in the elemental body form. Granted, it's not as high as you'd have otherwise, but it is possible. Especially if you're trying to max out dex and dex bonus, as both have no limit on dex bonus to ac.