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mitch- an eidolon can get SR as an evolution
That's a really good point. That's a 4 point evolution that an eidolon probably really needs in a high-level game, as it goes a long way to plugging a significant weakness in the eidolon. I've seen several high-level Eidolon builds that didn't spend for it, and they probably should have.
Now for real eidolon/summoner issue of antimagic field. It is called... a reach weapon(or reach/lunged regular weapons). Since a dragon basically kills his armor class by casting the field, it is pretty likely that an eidolon/summoner pounce wielding multiple reach weapons or with reach/lunged manufactured weapons might deal near lethal damage.
Reach and/or Lunge with manufactured weapons should work, and I think that eidolons with manufactured weapons gain a real advantage as a result. With natural weapons, even with the Spell Resistance evolution, a CR 19 (by the book) Red Dragon would have a 25% chance of piercing a 20th level Eidolon's Spell Resistance, so why take chances?
If an Eidolon has Spell Resistance, and the Summoner was in Twin Eidolon mode, then the dragon has only a 25% chance of pulling off a land and Crush maneuver on the Summoner. Then he'd have only a 25% chance of preventing the Eidolon from meleeing him (even assuming it didn't have manufactured reach weapons). So that would be a very effective counter.
Note that the Spell Resistance evolution is needed even if he uses the reach weapons, because the Summoner needs that Spell Resistance every bit as much as the Eidolon.
mitch- an eidolon can get SR as an evolutionThat's a really good point. That's a 4 point evolution that an eidolon probably really needs in a high-level game, as it goes a long way to plugging a significant weakness in the eidolon. I've seen several high-level Eidolon builds that didn't spend for it, and they probably should have.
Now for real eidolon/summoner issue of antimagic field. It is called... a reach weapon(or reach/lunged regular weapons). Since a dragon basically kills his armor class by casting the field, it is pretty likely that an eidolon/summoner pounce wielding multiple reach weapons or with reach/lunged manufactured weapons might deal near lethal damage.Reach and/or Lunge with manufactured weapons should work, and I think that eidolons with manufactured weapons gain a real advantage as a result. With natural weapons, even with the Spell Resistance evolution, a CR 19 (by the book) Red Dragon would have a 25% chance of piercing a 20th level Eidolon's Spell Resistance, so why take chances?
If an Eidolon has Spell Resistance, and the Summoner was in Twin Eidolon mode, then the dragon has only a 25% chance of pulling off a land and Crush maneuver on the Summoner. Then he'd have only a 25% chance of preventing the Eidolon from meleeing him (even assuming it didn't have manufactured reach weapons). So that would be a very effective counter.
Note that the Spell Resistance evolution is needed even if he uses the reach weapons, because the Summoner needs that Spell Resistance every bit as much as the Eidolon.
The issue with SR is that the summoner will have to make a caster level check to bypass it also. That means if he wants to buff the Eidolon he is no better than the dragon is and
PRD="if you cast antimagic field in an area occupied by a summoned creature that has spell resistance....."
That means the Eidolon has to be there when the spell is cast to benefit from SR. If the spell is cast and then he is brought into the antimagic field the SR is no good against it.
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Lets assume he is even lucky enough to pass by the eidolon on his way. Eidolon poofs and comes back. If all the items on the eidolon are ones that were passed to the eidolon on his home plane, then none of them will fall to the ground.
I don't think they would fall to the ground in any event. I think the whole "winks out" thing is like the Eidolon is (temporarily) not there (out of phase)? As soon as the field is no longer in his area, he would immediately return, with no ill effect. I don't think the Eidolon can simply choose to walk out of the field, however. He just doesn't react at all in the time that he's gone, and then he's suddenly back, and can act normally.
well then his only ac is natural armor. he loses all the bonuses he gained magically(improved na, deflection, magical armor bonuses, etc). As where a twin eidolon summoner or an eidolon only loses their weapon's enhancement bonus. Which would likely push him back to 38 ac. Not too hard to hit.
Improved NA would be a feat, not magical. And thus, not affected. If the dragon was wearing armor (possible) then that would also still be in effect. Even so. A summoner in his own human body would have a BAB of 10 at level 20. Maybe a +1 or +2 from str. He's doing 1d8+2 let's say, if he hits. But he has to roll a 20 to hit on each attack. That's just with a 38 armor and no Imp NA or regular armor. Dragon is SOO not worried about that.
If the dragon goes acts before the summoner in this sequence and uses antimagic field and a move action he may or may not make it to the summoner first. Lets assume he is even lucky enough to pass by the eidolon on his way. Eidolon poofs and comes back. If all the items on the eidolon are ones that were passed to the eidolon on his home plane, then none of them will fall to the ground. Now on the summoner's action the eidolon pounces the dragon with extra reach from 1 or 2 of the 3 sources mentioned. without a weapon bonus an eidolon should still be able to get a bonus to hit above +30 or so. It is pretty possible the eidolon will just end the dragon in 1 turn. He only needs to do 362 damage on average.
The eidelon can't 'Lunge' attack, nor can he use reach of his own. All he can do is attack with a normal reach weapon, cutting his number of attacks down. He loses any bonuses from the weapon, meaning it's his BAB + Str to hit. Better chance to hit the dragon, but not great. Add regular armor to the dragon, say Full Plate, and he's laughing at the eidelon too.
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The issue with SR is that the summoner will have to make a caster level check to bypass it also.
No, he won't.
"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance."
He can't buff the Eidolon during combat, because lowering spell resistance takes a standard action, and it stays down until your next turn. He can certainly buff it pre-combat, though.
The issue with SR is that the summoner will have to make a caster level check to bypass it also.No, he won't.
"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance."
He can't buff the Eidolon during combat, because lowering spell resistance takes a standard action, and it stays down until your next turn. He can certainly buff it pre-combat, though.
That is the issue I was talking about. If he drops his BAB that means he is not attacking or doing anything else more useful. I know pre-combat buffs are possible, but some spells are rounds/level, such as haste, and are best held until combat.
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The eidelon can't 'Lunge' attack, nor can he use reach of his own. All he can do is attack with a normal reach weapon, cutting his number of attacks down. He loses any bonuses from the weapon, meaning it's his BAB + Str to hit. Better chance to hit the dragon, but not great. Add regular armor to the dragon, say Full Plate, and he's laughing at the eidelon too.
I think the dragon would probably just use it's Frightful Presence on the Eidolon. It's an extraordinary ability, so it wouldn't be affected by the Eidolon's spell resistance. It's a (Free Action) Will DC 27 usable at 300 feet, affecting creatures up to 17HD (Eidolon is only 15HD for a 20th level Summoner). It has a pretty decent chance of working, especially against some of the builds of Eidolon I've seen posted here. AC wouldn't matter so much versus an enemy that was fleeing from you for 5d6 rounds..
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That is the issue I was talking about. If he drops his BAB that means he is not attacking or doing anything else more useful. I know pre-combat buffs are possible, but some spells are rounds/level, such as haste, and are best held until combat.The issue with SR is that the summoner will have to make a caster level check to bypass it also.No, he won't.
"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance."
He can't buff the Eidolon during combat, because lowering spell resistance takes a standard action, and it stays down until your next turn. He can certainly buff it pre-combat, though.
Fair enough. It does cause some problems. But I think that an Eidolon without Spell Resistance is incredibly vulnerable to things like AMF.
The dragon only does shaken not anything to make anyone run away if they are above 4 or 5 HD.
Fair enough. It does cause some problems. But I think that an Eidolon without Spell Resistance is incredibly vulnerable to things like AMF.That is the issue I was talking about. If he drops his BAB that means he is not attacking or doing anything else more useful. I know pre-combat buffs are possible, but some spells are rounds/level, such as haste, and are best held until combat.The issue with SR is that the summoner will have to make a caster level check to bypass it also.No, he won't.
"A creature can voluntarily lower its spell resistance."
He can't buff the Eidolon during combat, because lowering spell resistance takes a standard action, and it stays down until your next turn. He can certainly buff it pre-combat, though.
I agree, but if the dragon does not cast it in the area of the summoner creature then it won't matter, and since is 10 min/caster level I don't see why it would not cast it so the SR never gets to do anything.
Of course the dragon does not know for sure if the Eidolon has SR, but then again not too many things can stand toe to toe in melee with a dragon so AMF is not a bad route to go.
The dragon only does shaken not anything to make anyone run away if they are above 4 or 5 HD.Oops, my bad. I didn't realize that.
I was actually hoping you would tell me Pathfinder changed the rule so I would be wrong. I did check, but only found evidence to support my claim that it still follows the 3.5 version. :(
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I agree, but if the dragon does not cast it in the area of the summoner creature then it won't matter, and since is 10 min/caster level I don't see why it would not cast it so the SR never gets to do anything.
Of course the dragon does not know for sure if the Eidolon has SR, but then again not too many things can stand toe to toe in melee with a dragon so AMF is not a bad route to go.
I was confused by this until I reread Antimagic Field. Summoned creatures with spell resistance don't wink out if the antimagic field is cast when they are in the area, unless you make a caster level check. I didn't realize that it doesn't say that the spell resistance protects against an antimagic field that had already been cast.
Improved NA would be a feat, not magical. And thus, not affected. If the dragon was wearing armor (possible) then that would also still be in effect. Even so. A summoner in his own human body would have a BAB of 10 at level 20. Maybe a +1 or +2 from str. He's doing 1d8+2 let's say, if he hits. But he has to roll a 20 to hit on each attack. That's just with a 38 armor and no Imp NA or regular armor. Dragon is SOO not worried about that.The eidelon can't 'Lunge' attack, nor can he use reach of his own. All he can do is attack with a normal reach weapon, cutting his number of attacks down. He loses any bonuses from the weapon, meaning it's his BAB + Str to hit. Better chance to hit the dragon, but not great. Add regular armor to the dragon, say Full Plate, and he's laughing at the eidelon too.
Not actually accurate. Summoner bab is 15 at lvl 20. Also, A summoner in twin eidolon form or an eidolon attacking into an antimagic field with a weapon is at his usual bonuses minus any magical weapon enhancements.
Also if you want to waste the dragon's feats on improved natural armor(+1 per feat), be my guest. Also if you want the dragon to be able to wear full plate, you will have to spend 3 more feats to do that. This is hardly a scary proposition for the summoner. So if you waste 3 feats and find somebody to craft gargantuan dragon armor, then you can get yourself 47 ac.
Also for attacking into a antimagic field, it might only matter where you are(ie is your space inside the field). So we only need more than 10 ft of reach to attack in with a
weapon. If you think otherwise, I am glad to hear it but give me the rules stating your opinion.Also guys read the eidolon sr ability. The SR does not work against the summoner. So he can buff and heal his eidolon in the middle of battle(and himself if he gives himself sr).
Nice catch on the SR issue. I doubt a dragon would wear armor. It would interfere with the spellcasting. The dragon would most likely widen the antimagic field so it covers 20 feets. A rod would be the best option to do this.
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Also guys read the eidolon sr ability. The SR does not work against the summoner. So he can buff and heal his eidolon in the middle of battle(and himself if he gives himself sr).
That's true, the Summoner's spells aren't affected. Thanks for catching that. I really think this is a must-have evolution at this level.
I agree, although it would be pricey. The Rod doesn't technically exist in the Core Book (I'm not sure why...), but if it's the same cost as Maximize, it'd be 54,000gp.The dragon would most likely widen the antimagic field so it covers 20 feets. A rod would be the best option to do this.
I thought it did. Oh well then I guess the feat would do, but I don't really care for the feat, but it is better than improved natural armor, IMHO.
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Also for attacking into a antimagic field, it might only matter where you are(ie is your space inside the field). So we only need more than 10 ft of reach to attack in with a
weapon. If you think otherwise, I am glad to hear it but give me the rules stating your opinion.
I agree with thepuregamer on this, for the most part. Furthermore, since the dragon is gargantuan, the 10' radius field barely covers his body. If the spell was widened to 20', it would still only reach out 10' beyond it's body. So a weapon that granted a 15' reach could still strike the dragon.
Here's where I think I disagree with tpg... I wouldn't allow a creature with natural reach to use this reach to extend the attack, since it would have to reach into the antimagic field to do this.
It's a different spell, granted, but look at the mechanic for fire shield. If you strike with your body or with a weapon without reach, you take damage. It doesn't matter that you have reach naturally, you still take damage unless the weapon itself has reach. I think the same logic would make sense for this spell, and that would be how I'd rule it myself.
So, I would allow a large, reach weapon to strike the dragon, but not a weapon without the reach quality.
If the dragon hasn't widened the AMF, I would rule that you could strike the dragon without entering the AMF with any weapon, since the field barely covers the dragon's space.
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I thought it did. Oh well then I guess the feat would do, but I don't really care for the feat, but it is better than improved natural armor, IMHO.
The feat wouldn't work in this case, since it would require a 9th level spell slot, and the dragon in question only has 7th level spells.
He'd need Spell Perfection, which itself has a prereq of 3 metamagic feats, plus 15 ranks of Spellcraft (I think that he already has the Spellcraft).
I agree with thepuregamer on this, for the most part. Furthermore, since the dragon is gargantuan, the 10' radius field barely covers his body. If the spell was widened to 20', it would still only reach out 10' beyond it's body. So a weapon that granted a 15' reach could still strike the dragon.
If the spell is centered on the dragon then it is centered on the entire dragon not just some point on his insides. its ten feet out from the squares he occupies
I thought it did. Oh well then I guess the feat would do, but I don't really care for the feat, but it is better than improved natural armor, IMHO.The feat wouldn't work in this case, since it would require a 9th level spell slot, and the dragon in question only has 7th level spells.
He'd need Spell Perfection, which itself has a prereq of 3 metamagic feats, plus 15 ranks of Spellcraft (I think that he already has the Spellcraft).
I guess the dragon is in trouble then unless he comes up with a plan to ambush the summoner and eidolon.
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If the spell is centered on the dragon then it is centered on the entire dragon not just some point on his insides. its ten feet out from the squares he occupies
I don't think that's right. At least, it's not the way spell areas are described on p.214-215.
An emanation needs to have a point of origin, and it radiates out from that point. A 20'x20' square is not a point of origin. The point of origin would be a vertex smack in the middle of that 20'x20' space. For a Medium creature, the vertex would be any of the four corners of it's square.
I don't think that's right. At least, it's not the way spell areas are described on p.214-215.
An emanation needs to have a point of origin, and it radiates out from that point. A 20'x20' square is not a point of origin. The point of origin would be a vertex smack in the middle of that 20'x20' space. For a Medium creature, the vertex would be any of the four corners of it's square.
True but then you have half a dragon in an anti-magic field but I suppose if you center it on his corner and your technically looking in every direction at once then its still 10ft from the dragons squares
Not actually accurate. Summoner bab is 15 at lvl 20. Also, A summoner in twin eidolon form or an eidolon attacking into an antimagic field with a weapon is at his usual bonuses minus any magical weapon enhancements.
Twin Eidelon is a Su Ability, therefore it goes bye bye in an AMF. So as soon as the dragon closes, he's fighting an un-twinned summoner until the summoner can get out of the AMF. So, 15 + 2 for str = 17. Still needs a natural 20 to hit the dragon's 38.
Also if you want to waste the dragon's feats on improved natural armor(+1 per feat), be my guest. Also if you want the dragon to be able to wear full plate, you will have to spend 3 more feats to do that. This is hardly a scary proposition for the summoner. So if you waste 3 feats and find somebody to craft gargantuan dragon armor, then you can get yourself 47 ac.
I was just pointing out that your statement that armor and Imp NA were magical in nature was wrong.
Also for attacking into a antimagic field, it might only matter where you are(ie is your space inside the field). So we only need more than 10 ft of reach to attack in with a
weapon. If you think otherwise, I am glad to hear it but give me the rules stating your opinion.
As pointed out above, when you attack into a space with an effect (fire aura, AMF, etc) you are affected by that effect.
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Even if an eidolon is instantly nerfed by an antimagic field, I still think that it's vital to give it the Spell Resistance evolution at this level.
And, as pointed out above, the fact that the Summoner can cast right through this SR, makes the evolution far and away the best way to give the eidolon spell resistance.
Without it, the eidolon is too vulnerable to too many magical effects, and the saves of the eidolons I've seen posted here would also seem to indicate a vulnerability.
Here's a question. If the eidolon is dismissed by the summoner, and then brought back a short time later (within a few minutes), would any spell effects on the eidolon still be present (assuming they had duration remaining)?
If a wizard or sorcerer casts dominate monster on an eidolon and succeeds, and the eidolon is directed to attack the summoner, the summoner might reasonably dismiss the eidolon as a standard action, particularly if he wasn't fairly certain that a greater dispel would succeed. If the summoner then summons the eidolon three minutes later (and out of combat, of course), would the eidolon immediately attack the summoner again, still under the effects of the dominate monster? If the eidolon was slain, and then brought back the next day, would the eidolon return under the effects of the dominate monster, or would it's "dying" release it from the spell? Would the eidolon be affected for 20 days if the wizard who cast it was 20th level (or until dispelled)? The eidolon would get a new save each day, unless the wizard spent a round that day concentrating on the spell (and would you allow the wizard to concentrate on a spell when your target was on another plane)?
If the wizard was neutral, then a protection from evil/good/law/chaos spell wouldn't prevent the compulsion effect. A high level sorcerer or wizard might reasonably cast this spell with a Will DC of 29 or 30 (or a bit higher with spell focus). Would the eidolon get any other bonus to his save, other than +2 for being told to do something against its nature?
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By the way, to address the original question posted at the beginning of the thread...Is the eidolon broken?...
One element of the eidolon that is broken and needs to be errata'd is that an eidolon is limited by the summoner's level as to how many natural attacks it can possess, but this limitation doesn't appear to extend to manufactured weapons. I'm sure the designers meant to make the distinction to allow for iterative attacks with manufactured weapons, and that they didn't envision that the eidolon would be kitted out with a dozen or more weapons (which they would totally have seen if they spent more time hanging out in CharOp threads...).
That one element more than any other, needs to be fixed. I think the simplest solution would be to make it that the max attacks applies to natural attacks plus the number of manufactured weapons. So a 20th level summoner could have an eidolon with a bite attack and 6 manufactured weapons. It would get 9 attacks...one for the bite, three for the 3 iterative attacks with it's first weapon, and five for its five remaining weapons.
It would get 10 attacks...one for the bite, and nine for the 3 iterative attacks with each of three weapons.
You only ever get one set of iterative attacks, no matter how many weapons you have. Every weapon beyond the first only gives you a single extra attack. (Improved and Greater Two weapon fighting create an exception to this rule).
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It would get 10 attacks...one for the bite, and nine for the 3 iterative attacks with each of three weapons.You only ever get one set of iterative attacks, no matter how many weapons you have. Every weapon beyond the first only gives you a single extra attack. (Improved and Greater Two weapon fighting create an exception to this rule).
You're right. And so, I'd amend my suggestion to be that they get a total of 7 natural plus manufactured weapons. Take out the part about counting manufactured weapons twice.
I'm going to edit my above post, so it's less confusing.
Thanks.
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About attacking into a antimagic field from the outside. If you attack in with a weapon, the only thing you lose is the weapon enhancements. You are still outside the field and you are still buffed.
If the dragon is on top of you etc, then obviously you are not sporting any buffs and have fewer options. though if the dragon is on top of you, it is still susceptible to an eidolon pounce with manufactured weapons.
I agree with the first part, provided the field doesn't extend far enough from your target to prevent this. I don't have a problem with your weapon reaching into the field, but if you reach into it in the flesh (you use your natural reach, not the weapon's reach), and you're an eidolon, I believe you'd wink out.
The dragon would be susceptible to an eidolon pounce with manufactured weapons, except...if you're talking about the actual eidolon, he winks out and can't attack (or be attacked, really). Furthermore, the text from antimagic field seems to indicate that even spell resistance won't prevent this effect (unless the antimagic field is first cast while the eidolon is in it's radius).
...If you're talking about the summoner in twin eidolon form, this is a supernatural ability, and it wouldn't function in an antimagic field. Upon further reading the antimagic field spell, it seems as though the only time the caster needs to make a caster level check against spell resistance, is when a summoned creature is inside its radius when it is cast. Other than that, it doesn't appear to be affected by spell resistance.
Is antimagic field broken, especially for a 6th level spell?
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btw, antimagic field can't be dispelled right. it blocks line of effect I would think.
It can't be dispelled, and I would also think that it would block line of effect.
As to short swords or other non-reach weapons of larger size, I think that it would be reasonable to assume that even though it wouldn't increase the reach of an appropriately-sized character using it, the weapon itself would be long enough to extend beyond the adjacent square.
A gargantuan short sword might be 16 feet long (assuming you start with a 2 foot sword, and double it with each size increment). That should be large enough to easily extend 10 feet into an antimagic field to attack whoever is in the middle of it.
I don't think a huge short sword would be quite long enough to accomplish this, though.
I would allow this tactic to work, although I wish the rules were clearer about over-sized weapons. Not giving them something that approximates reach at a certain point seems illogical.
Unfortunately,
Sizing weapons up does not provide reach. I think it's asinine personally, but, a reach weapon is a weapon with the reach property. A diminuitive creature with a reach weapon can reach the next square over. A reach weapon that's sized up increases it's reach.
A long sword or great sword that's sized up, even if it's sized to gargantuan, doesn't, per RAW, gain the reach property.
I usually house rule that away, as I said, I think it's asinine.
I made a level 20 summoner yesterday and played with some friends in a one shot.
You decide...Evolutions: 22 pts
Biped
Huge -----(10)
Limbs (Arms)(Free) + Claws (Free)
Limbs (Legs)(Free) + Claws (1)
Limbs (Arms)(2)
Rend (2)
Flight(Perfect - 90ft) (7)Myrrk
20 Eidolon
CN Huge Outsider
Init +3 ;Senses DarkvisionAC 32, Touch 11, Flat Footed 29 (+21 Natural, +3 Dex, -2 Size)
HP 15d10 + 105
Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 9Fly Spd: 90ft (perfect), Spd: 30ft
Primary Attacks: +5 Keen Fauchard +30/+25/+20 (3d8 +41 [15-20/x2, blinding])
Secondary Attacks: 4 Claws +25 (2d6 +20 [19-20/x2,blinding])Reach: 15ft (Fauchard 20ft... I think?)
Str 42,Dex 16,Con 22,Int 7,Wis 10,Cha 11
BAB +15; CMB +31Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Fauchard)
Toughness
Power Attack
Combat Reflexes
Critical Focus
Improved Critical(Claw)
Blinding Critical
Improved Natural Attack (Claws)Plus it gets 60 skillpoints.....
This build doesn't include 4 points, which become 6 total points on yourself (Aspect Skills)
Nor does it include Greater Evolution Surge Spell.
Nor does it include the fact that you get to become the Eidolon, your magic items are active.
At 20th level, this isn't very special. As others have pointed out, even a 12th level wizard that pops a hold monster ends this thing pretty quickly. Damage reduction slows it down pretty well since it has difficulties overcoming stuff like DR/Adamantine or DR/Cold Iron, which scrapes portion of its damage off. A cloak of minor displacement is fairly standard gear at these levels, and grants a 20% miss chance (statistically 1 out of 5) against each attack.
Likewise, as others have pointed out, the claw attacks are at +20, not +25, because they are being wielded with a manufactured weapon. This means that against a balor with no armor or buffs, he misses 50% of the time; and honestly, a balor's AC isn't very good for the CR it's around (but hey, it's a naked demon with flight and a variety of sweet spells).
Dismissal ends him pretty easily, as does banishment. Flesh to Stone can end him, and likely the summoner with him.
His AC is pretty close to being auto-hittable by anything that would want to hit him at this level. The squishy balor I mentioned before has a +31/+26/+21/+16 attack routine, which means he should land pretty much every hit except the last two, which are a 50% and 20% respectively; prior to buffs.
Its size can be a pain, because a huge creature takes up a lot of area. About 3x3 spaces on a grit or 15ft x 15ft, which means he becomes fairly vulnerable to battlefield control and/or flanking, because he is treated as occupying his whole area, not to mention the difficulties of being in a dungeon-environment. Even in an area that's comfortable for creatures like balors and pit-fiends, the Eidolon must squeeze, which gives it a -4 to AC and all attacks (among other problems).
This thing probably wouldn't be more than CR 15 on its own.
I dunno, this thing just isn't that scary at this level. The fact it's vulnerable to an entirely new series of save-or-die spells (dismissal/banishment type spells) makes it far from amazing. A balor would actually probably take control of the Eidolon (dominate monster DC 27 at-will) and turn it on the summoner; or simply cast Blasphemy and the Eidolon is Paralyzed, Weakened, and Dazed, and must make a DC 25 Will save at a -4 penalty or be banished.
Yeah, this thing is pretty mild at 20th level.
I mean, you could be a druid with a nice beefy animal companion that can't be dismissed, who the druid also casts shapechange on, giving it a wide variety of nice buffs (such as form of the dragon), while also doing the same, and sporting a wide variety of fun and useful spells. :)
EDIT: It may or may not be relevant, but if your group is used to lower level play and everyone rolled up a 20th level PC, it's likely that everyone is out of their element. I've ran several games that have gone from 1st - 20th level and beyond, and I can say from experience it's not something most people just dive into and start swimming.
I once ran a 1-shot 20th level game for a group of players who wanted to play a high level game; so they all rolled their PCs and brought them to the game, and they got stomped. None of them were really very comfortable with their abilities, didn't know how to defend themselves properly, etc. The really obvious part was when a few CR 6 succubi more or less had the party fighting with each other because no one bothered with a simple protection from evil spell or the like. They were having difficult fights with things their CR-10 or lower.
And this was a group that was like 8 players strong at the time.
they also have 3 stat points by lvl to throw around. So 54. Righteous might would push it up 4 points but decrease their chance to hit. divine vessel.
I have been looking for spells that are cool to use. A few pop out as awesome.
1. Bestow grace( lvl 2 paladin spell. minutes/lvl. lets target add charisma to saves... A summoner with this on a wand is a happy man.)
2. a wand of divine vessel can get your eidolon a size increase up to gargantuan and up to +8str. Otherwise, your eidolon uses righteous might.
I wish I knew of a way to get animal growth on the eidolon... if we could just add animal growth to the summoner's spell list it would be possible. anyway, since the fighter is already likely benefiting from a polymorph spell that increases size, he won't be able to use one of these options.3. found a new way to do the old divine power thing... Let the summoner umd a wand of transformation. that will get his bab up to 20. Though I think this is still a silly thing to do. It is not going to last long and mister summoner is not casting spells now.
btw, we should try an all primary natural attack eidolon because there are a ton of apg spells that improve natural attack damage.
He would need a staff of transformation as wands only go up to 4th level spells, which may or may not affect your considerations. Also, bestow grace is a good idea, but it means you might need to invest fairly heavily in Charisma to really benefit much at all. All eidolons begin with an 11 Charisma, and unless you invest one of your 3 ability score enhancements into charisma, it will stay there. The best you could get is +6 (+6 magic item, +5 inherent, +11 base, =22) otherwise with a lot of resource expenditure (unless the wizard gives you +5 inherent modifiers for free; 'cause they can do that sort of thing by 13th level or so).
Gargantuan helps, but it only makes the possibility of size difficulties (mentioned previously) worse, as larger creatures have harder times dealing with battlefield control effects, or even engaging in fights with people inside citadels, dungeons, or pretty much anything indoors.
Some things to consider.
there is some context to the things I posted as I was responding to james about how an summoner/eidolon can close their attack bonus gap.
I picked out divine vessel, righteous might, transformation(for the summoner only), and animal growth(if I could find a way to get it on the eidolon) as ways a summoner or their eidolon could boost their str mod and thus increase their chance to hit. Also it helps that these are buffs that do not really help a fighter because he already has 20 bab and because he might already be getting a +8 size modifier to str from a polymorph spell of some sort.
Furthermore, at times when size is an issue, things are not so bad because most of the creatures with high natural armor scores(and thus high acs) are also bigger creatures. If we are in a small dungeon, the acs will be lower and a larger portion of armor class will be composed of armor and shield bonuses(which can be negated by brilliant energy)
Bestow grace was more of a summoner buff than an eidolon buff. Summoner's have a weak fortitude save and using bestow grace is a good way to raise their weaker save without having to reduce their casting stat(charisma). I just thought of it because there was discussion a few pages back about how a summoner has a lot of trouble fixing their weak saves and bestow grace seemed like a good solution.
Ahhh. Yeah, it'd definitely be good for the summoner. I honestly think Bestow Grace is too strong for a spell, since divine grace is kind of an amazing class ability, and the ability to easily stick it in a wand makes it questionable; but dem's the printed rules, right?
Part of my mistake was assuming that divine power still worked like it did in 3.5. In 3.5 it increased your actual base attack bonus up to your hd. It doesn't do that anymore and I do not think there exists a different spell in pathfinder that increases base attack bonus like that did. Thus the only ways an eidolon has to reduce the attack bonus gap between them and a fighter is by maximizing strength I suspect.
I will run some numbers in a later post.
I just want to point out that an eidolon is a full-BAB creature... it's just a 3/4 HD creature. So anything that bumps BAB up to your HD is useless on it, because it only has 15 HD at level 20.
He can pick up Righteous Might for himself via UMD, or for the eidolon by the eidolon using a spell storing item. It would be a 9th level spell for it to be quickened, but at 20th that's doable. The resulting size penalty here balances out the STR bonus to hit however. So it's a wash in terms of gaining hitroll. Whether or not the damage is worth the investment and whether or not the bigger size will be an advantage or detriment would depend upon the given encounter.Even with a decently built summoner & eidolon, the fighter is outperforming them in terms of combat. When the DM throws creatures with ACs to showcase that hitroll advantage the fighter has this only becomes more pronounced.
I'd say the size penalties actually make the eidelon's situation worse. First, he's not really keeping up with the fighter on the BAB side, he's just getting within spitting distance. Add onto that that the eidelon has presumeably gone from Huge to Colossal, and think about what that does to his low AC, and he's not a glass cannon, he's a house of cards cannon. You don't have to hit him with a hammer, a hard breeze will send him to the ground.
I was merely talking about hitroll which is a wash (+4 STR yields a +2 to hit, and Huge to Colossal yields a -2 to hit).The added size is likely a downfall as it is harder to maneuver, fit in, etc. But the added reach and CMB/CMD is nice, though at this level it doesn't pack the punch that it does say around 8th level or so.
Eidolons simply aren't as good fighters as PC fighters. Which should neither be surprising nor objectionable.
-James
I've not had a problem with them. Granted, in my games I tweaked the class.
1) Attack Maximums listed apply to attacks in a full attack action, regardless of type/source (IE: Natural vs weapon, all the same).
2) Eidelon's get 1 item slot per 2 levels (to a max of 10 at level 20).
3) Eidelon's don't go 'poof' if the summoner is asleep/unconscious
That seems to work just fine. Granted, I haven't heavily tested them at very high levels that we're talking about, but then, I rarely run much higher than 15 or 16.