Okay, once you have got the ability to ignore fatigue, how does rage cycling work.
Does a barbarian simply gain the ability to recycle a "once per rage" rage power as many times as he wishes during his turn (burning a rage round each time) or can he only recycle once per round?
Driver 325 yards wrote: Okay, once you have got the ability to ignore fatigue, how does rage cycling work.
Does a barbarian simply gain the ability to recycle a "once per rage" rage power as many times as he wishes during his turn (burning a rage round each time) or can he only recycle once per round?
Once per round as I understand it thus making all once per rage abilities into once per round ones.
Starting a stopping a rage is a free action. So, yes, what gnomersy said.
Most of those once-per-rage powers are specific full/standard/move/swift/immediate actions anyways, right? Shouldn't come up too much.
However, I think if a barbarian activates rage, deactivates rage, and activates rage for second time in ONE round; then that barbarian expended TWO rounds of rage in one round.
The 'once per rage' rage powers do essentially turn into 'once per round, action economy willing' rage powers, but keep in mind that there can be a reasonable limit for free actions. Spending 10 to use all your once per rage rage powers in a round might not be reasonable to some GMs. Or even getting really angry and then not getting really angry, multiple times per 6 seconds.
Protoman wrote: Most of those once-per-rage powers are specific full/standard/move/swift/immediate actions anyways, right? Shouldn't come up too much.
However, I think if a barbarian activates rage, deactivates rage, and activates rage for second time in ONE round; then that barbarian expended TWO rounds of rage in one round.
Oh, it can come up more often than you might think, especially if you are building a character around the concept.
That said, yes the question is can you expend two rounds of rage in one round for the purpose of recycling one rage power twice on your turn. Seems like the language for rage leaves the door open for it. I was just wondering if there was an official ruling or even unofficial ruling on the issue.
I could see a reasonable limit on free actions being applied to this one making it so you can't activate and deactivate rage in the same round.
Cheapy wrote: The 'once per rage' rage powers do essentially turn into 'once per round, action economy willing' rage powers, but keep in mind that there can be a reasonable limit for free actions. Spending 10 to use all your once per rage rage powers in a round might not be reasonable to some GMs. Or even getting really angry and then not getting really angry, multiple times per 6 seconds. I am a little confused by your response. If you had several once per rage rage powers you could use them all in one round without needing to rage cycle. Rage cycling only comes into question when you are trying to use a once per rage rage power more than once in an encounter.
My question is, do those rage powers turn into once per round powers or turn into "as many times as you can get them off during your turn until you run out of rage round" powers.
I think its the later, but that is just me. I am basically looking for the RAW argument against so that I can weigh for myself whether or not the argument against has merit.
eakratz wrote: I could see a reasonable limit on free actions being applied to this one making it so you can't activate and deactivate rage in the same round. Yeah maybe. I just can't believe that this issue has not been at least discussed unofficially be a dev. Was hoping one of these post would lead me to such a discussion.
Maybe there is no need for a limitation. RAW, I don't think there is one unless I keep reading the rage language incorrectly, which is possible.
eakratz wrote: I could see a reasonable limit on free actions being applied to this one making it so you can't activate and deactivate rage in the same round. This
As a GM, if this came up, would limit "flipping the Rage on/off switch" to once per round.
Rule Language I have found so far...
Quote: Rage
A barbarian can enter rage as a free action...
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.
Quote: Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. You can perform one or more free actions while taking another action normally. However, there are reasonable limits on what you can really do for free, as decided by the GM.
So is the answer simply that it is up to GM discretion, but you should at the very least be able to rage cycle once per round.
Hmmm! I wonder how PFS handles an issue that is left to GM discretion.
eakratz wrote: I could see a reasonable limit on free actions being applied to this one making it so you can't activate and deactivate rage in the same round. Well you can definitely do it at least once (per the definition of a free action). You are not arguing that you can't do it even once a turn are you? If you are, I am interested in hearing that logic.
Elven_Blades wrote: eakratz wrote: I could see a reasonable limit on free actions being applied to this one making it so you can't activate and deactivate rage in the same round. This
As a GM, if this came up, would limit "flipping the Rage on/off switch" to once per round. I think what you are saying is different than what he is saying. I think I agree with you that a GM could take your position.
Okay, I gave Eakratz a chance to defend his position, but no response.
Anyway, I think the general consensus is that rage cycling is at GM discretion to a point. GMs at least would have to allow a per to enter rage once a turn and to end rage once per turn.
A GM could not say that entering rage and ending rage are the same thing and thus limit you to either entering or ending rage in a single turn. This position would essential only allow you to use a once per rage rage power every other round, but since the position is not founded in rule, it would basically be a GM acting in a rouge fashion.
Logic: Enter rage is a seperate act than ending rage. Both occur as a free action. A GM could limit you to do each only once per turn. A GM could also theoretically allow you to do each as many times as you would like in a turn (until you run out of rage that is).
I am good with the general consensus. Thank you everyone for your responses.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Okay, I gave Eakratz a chance to defend his position, but no response. Yeah, I was kind of cooking dinner, playing with the dog, and talking to my wife who I only get to see for a half hour before she had to leave again. Sorry about not being so prompt.
I had a character that did this, and everybody generally assumed that the character could rage at the start of the turn, use the rage powers, and then end rage at the end of the turn. There are some downsides to doing this, notably that you lose the increased con/HP in between turns, so nobody really minded much.
Edit: Also, holding rage for the entire round, then turning it off at the beginning of the turn, then re-raging immediately afterwards was assumed to cost 2 rounds of rage (one round for the continuation of the rage, then one round for turning it on again) so this was also impractical and undesirable.
I had assumed that entering rage immediately expended a round of rage, therefore it never occurred to me to try to enter rage multiple times in a round. Is this the case? If so, it's simply impractical to try to rage cycle more than once in a round, and no limit is really needed (as a limit is imposed by the number of rage rounds per day). If not, then a limit on one "on" and one "off" per turn is quite reasonable. Though I can't think of any rage powers in particular that could trigger more than once per round.
I would DEFINITELY limit the rage cycling to 1 round of rage used per round. I see that as fairly reasonable, so rage powers that use "once per rage" rule could be activated once per round (after you get immunity to fatigue).
What I was saying is it would not be uncalled for if a GM decided that their interpretation of what free actions are allowed in one round could decide that turning on/off rage is similar enough that they would adjucate that you would have to wait until the following round to turn off rage. I don't even know if I would rule it that way myself.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Hmmm! I wonder how PFS handles an issue that is left to GM discretion. PFS has strict methods for keeping a handle on these kinds of things:
Nefreet wrote: Driver 325 yards wrote: Hmmm! I wonder how PFS handles an issue that is left to GM discretion. PFS has strict methods for keeping a handle on these kinds of things:
** spoiler omitted ** Oh, I was under the belief that PFS didn't allow for abilities that involved GM discretion to adjudicate. I guess I was wrong. I thought maybe PFS would have come up with a rule for this issue or just disallowed it altogether.
Acedio wrote: Though I can't think of any rage powers in particular that could trigger more than once per round. There are quite a few. For instance, knockdown rage power. If you could rage cycle as manytimes as you would like during a round then Knockdown would turn into the Barbarians version of Improved trip. Of course, the barbarian would have to burn the rounds of rage to do it.
Actually, unlimited cycling would basically turn a number of barbarian rage powers into expensive versions of feats.
I am surprised that there are so many responses that say, "if I were a GM I would limit it to one cycle per round." It is every GM's progative, but I am wondering why a GM would bother to prevent a Barbarian from doing in a rather expensive fashion what a fighter could do for free. But that is just me.
I don't want to turn this into a houserule discussion, I am just rather surprised at what must be a belief that unlimited rage cycling would cause a huge problem somehow.
Driver 325 yards wrote: Acedio wrote: Though I can't think of any rage powers in particular that could trigger more than once per round. There are quite a few. For instance, knockdown rage power. If you could rage cycle as manytimes as you would like during a round then Knockdown would turn into the Barbarians version of Improved trip. Of course, the barbarian would have to burn the rounds of rage to do it But he would also turn into the barbarian equivalent of "spam dispel magic".
Interesting. Even with rage cycling I never thought to do it multiple times per round. Just on at the beginning and off at the end. Though, the rage cycling barbarian destroys CAGM builds which are really high DPR, the reason many play barbarians.
I built a barbarian around rage cycling. It wasn't as fun or awesome as I had imagined. Eventually I retrained my terrain mastery/dominance (I went the Horizon Walker route so as not to lose BAB) into astral as it was funnier to blink around via Dimensional Dervish etc.
Admittedly I never thought to use rage powers more than once per round. And I always just turned it on at start of round, off at end.
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