|
I can see there's a lot of resistance to Misfires in the discussions ... but I'm wondering if anyone else thinks Quick Clear should be a move action instead of a standard action. I think that in the event of a misfire, a Gunslinger should be able to clear it "this" round and be back in the full swing of combat next round (assuming shooting before moving).
I agree if I want to call something quick I wouldn't use a standard action to do it. Swift action seems more reasonable - especially since your using a very limited resource.
I suppose pointing out that a combat round is 6 seconds and Gunslingers are using what we in the modern world consider "antiquated and clunky" technology wouldn't work?
No?
Okay, so...
Having learned how to clear a misfired antique (1800's, Civil War Era, Enfield, was it?), I can say this is not something that can be done at ALL easily, even by someone who is highly trained in the technique. The person teaching me how to do it still took upwards of 18 seconds (3 combat rounds) to do it. And this was with what was considered pretty much the height of firearms engineering in the mid 1800's.
The Enfield is a single shot, muzzle loading rifle - and thus makes a decent analogy to the firearms used in the Gunslinger's equipment definition. I could go back to Muskets and the like, which take even longer to clear if something goes wrong, but I won't.
In game terms, a Gunslinger using Quick Clear is doing so as a Standard Action - which takes up approximately half of a 6 second round. 3 seconds.
A Gunslinger is doing in 3 seconds what someone in the real world is lucky to do in under 18. So about a sixth of the real time. They're also "removing the broken condition from a single firearm" they are currently wielding. Call me crazy, but that's already cinematic enough for my tastes - making it a Swift Action (which technically takes no time) is an option, sure, but I see nothing wrong with keeping it as a Standard Action. It's already fast enough.
-Edit to add-
If I have a problem with anything, it's that the Gunslinger appears to be using black powder, muzzle loading, non-rifled weapons - which to me says that their range increments are much too high for the Musket. But that's just me, I think.
I am going with the assumption they are rifled black powder weapons.
Quick clear.
Thats funny really because anything else in game thats 'quick' is free or swift.
We got spells people, and balance to consider.
When we think magic, we think anything possible, when we think fantasy technology, we try to make it real.
I just want to make comparisons, Warp drive? Light Speed? Light sabers, all technically "technology" but really, magic.
Quick clear should be swift, although i could stomach a move action.
If we can give away spells as being free (although at 4 levels higher than normal) a quick clear should be at least a move.
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32
|
See my thoughts on that here. Scroll down until you see me quote that ability.
I agree. It needs to be changed.
I am going with the assumption they are rifled black powder weapons.
If the word "Musket" wasn't being used, I'd tend to agree with you. A Musket, by its definition, is not a rifled weapon. Although it might be either a matchlock or a caplock (why no wheel or flint, I ask you?), it's most certainly not rifled.
Quick clear.Thats funny really because anything else in game thats 'quick' is free or swift.
We got spells people, and balance to consider.
When we think magic, we think anything possible, when we think fantasy technology, we try to make it real.
I just want to make comparisons, Warp drive? Light Speed? Light sabers, all technically "technology" but really, magic.
Quick clear should be swift, although i could stomach a move action.
If we can give away spells as being free (although at 4 levels higher than normal) a quick clear should be at least a move.
Considering that a Gunslinger can attack Touch AC at any range increment for a simple ability investment, and do it without increasing the "level of the gun," I think there's plenty of balance.
And frankly, I don't think it's out of the realm of necessity to discuss magic and technology in the same sentence, but still treat them as separate entities - no one's killing any poor defenseless catgirls by doing so. A Wizard requires a set type of action to cast a set type of spell. By adding Metamagic feats, that can be reduced, but the Wizard has to suffer a penalty to do so - in this case, the increase of the Spells level, for a resource reduction on the part of the Wizard's spell allotment for the "new" level of the spell.
The Gunslinger has the same reduction in resources for the use of Quick Clear - that being an available action during a round.
I was at least comparing apples to apples with the comparison between a Gunslinger's weapons and a Civil War era firearm. I could have pointed out that modern firearms require about 3 seconds to clear. The AK-47 is the best example - in the words of a soldier I know "Whack against rock, confirm clear, resume firing." That would have been apples to oranges, though - totally disparate technology levels and nothing comparable exists (that we know of) in Golarion.
See my thoughts on that here. Scroll down until you see me quote that ability.
I agree. It needs to be changed.
Clarified, maybe. Adjusted, definitely. I read your suggestions, Caleb, and I like them. I don't think it's something that should require the expenditure of Grit, and like the idea of it being usable so long as 1 point of Grit remains.
I think my own perspective is a bit skewed because I've already developed something similar for my own use in my longest running campaign. The Rifleman class gains a class ability that allows them to reduce Fouling as a Move action, decreasing Misfire by 1 for every Move action they take (or by 3 if using a Full Round action) - so using the Misfire rules presented for the Gunslinger, a Rifleman would do thus:
Round 1 - Jonas the Rifleman draws down a bead on a rapidly approaching troop of Kolanthans. Misfire! Barrel is fouled. Misfire chance increases to 5 (from 1). This increases by 1 every round the weapon is fired until Cleared.
Round 2 - Jonas The Rifleman spends a Full Round action (2 Move actions) to Clear the Foul, reducing Misfire to 2. Jonas is grateful he's backed up by his Soldier buddies.
Round 3 - Misfire! It's not Jonas' day. He chucks the rifle, uses his Quick Draw feat to draw his pistol, and plugs the Kolanthan raider coming up over the embankment right in the chest.
Round 4 - The single shot pistol now spent, Jonas flips the pistol around, grabbing it by the barrel, and proceeds to use the curved, heavy (and historically accurate!) dagger built into the stock to stab the staggered Kolanthan. The fight continues.
It's not exactly the same as Quick Clear, but it's similar enough that I can say that I've tested something very like it and found the balance to be adequate, at least for my game.
Modern rifle clearing is a process referred to as "sports" if done correctly:
The rifle misfires, then you:
S-lap the magazine up to ensure its properly seated in the mag well
P-ull the charging handle to the rear
O-bserve the shell or brass either leaving the chamber or that is it still stuck in there (this is done with the weapons ejection port facing at a downward angle to aid this action)
R-elease the charging handle (assume bolt returns to operating position)
T-ap the forward assist (if your weapon has one, otherwise tap the charging handle forward to ensure seating...like on an ak47)
S-queeze the trigger to resume firing.
that process, if practiced can be done in about 3 seconds (IF there are no further complications) I have seen soldiers tested on this and repeatedly fail to do it correctly in the allotted time of 30 seconds, mind you these are soldiers, professional soldiers, not amateurs.
Anyway. I have also cleared, and reloaded a machine gun in less than three seconds after a misfire.
No reason a fantasy gunner couldnt do it as a move action.
Also, the first rifles were called RIFLED MUSKETS, because they were muskets, that had been given a rifled barrel.
So the term musket does not necessarily refer to a non rifled weapon.
The term Rifle is just shortened from rifled musket, but isnt a proper name for any weapon as it refers to a feature of said weapon and not the weapon itself. (kinda like calling everything with automatic fire, a machinegun.)
-SPORTS- omitted because I really did want to keep apples-to-apples comparisons in my potion of the discussion, honest! (even if Pendagast makes a good point)
that process, if practiced can be done in about 3 seconds (IF there are no further complications) I have seen soldiers tested on this and repeatedly fail to do it correctly in the allotted time of 30 seconds, mind you these are soldiers, professional soldiers, not amateurs.
Fair points, all. But, hopefully, we're not going to be dealing with automatic fire weapons with Gunslingers. Or if we do, nothing bigger than a revolving barrel repeater.
Anyway. I have also cleared, and reloaded a machine gun in less than three seconds after a misfire.
No reason a fantasy gunner couldn't do it as a move action.
I'm not entirely sure why the focus is on whether or not a Move could be used instead of a Standard so frequently in discussions about this (on this board and elsewhere amongst the playtest community).
Would you mind explaining to me your motivations on doing so? I have a couple of theories, but I'd rather not assume.
Also, the first rifles were called RIFLED MUSKETS, because they were muskets, that had been given a rifled barrel.
So the term musket does not necessarily refer to a non rifled weapon.The term Rifle is just shortened from rifled musket, but isn't a proper name for any weapon as it refers to a feature of said weapon and not the weapon itself. (kinda like calling everything with automatic fire, a machinegun.)
Fair point. I'm used to people being highly specific when they discuss firearms, so I think I was subconsciously expecting the Paizonians to use Rifled Musket or "Rifle" in their terminology, not simply "Musket."
These firearms need to be at least as realistic as the bows (again)!
|
Realism has nothing to do with D&D.
Having your musket misfire at first level and having to spend a round getting to the point that your only weapon doesn't destroy itself is not fun.
Having to spend two rounds getting the weapon to the point that you can actually attack again even though you've already got Rapid Reload is also not fun.
Having Quick Clear be a Move Action synergizes with natural load time of the Pistol and with the Rapid Reload time of the Musket, which is convenient.
Reality, history, etc are great sources of inspiration and very important in the real world, but the moment they start making the game not fun they need to be set on fire.
Realism has nothing to do with D&D.
That was the joke.
Also, I agree about the misfire chance. It adds nothing of value to the game as a game, realism or not. Where's the chance for bow strings to snap?
Realism has nothing to do with D&D.That was the joke.
Also, I agree about the misfire chance. It adds nothing of value to the game as a game, realism or not. Where's the chance for bow strings to snap?
That's kind of my point in saying that I have no problems with a Gunslinger doing Quick Clear in 3 seconds. I only brought the real-world similes in to show that the Gunslinger is doing something really awesome in comparison to the real world, and a Standard action as a Quick Clear on the gun works just fine, at least in my opinion.
From a game balance perspective, going back to Pendagast's comparison of the Gunslinger to the Wizard - the Wizard's resources are taken up by way of Spells Slots. The Wizard can do things quickly, or make them larger, or make them more effective, at the expense of his resources - Spell Slots.
The Gunslingers resources are, besides Grit and ammunition, Actions. He only gets a handful of these resources, and thus has to decide what he wants to take his risks on. I don't think keeping Quick Clear as requiring time (ie, not a Swift or Free action) is all that game-breaking.
Not to pick nits, Sorcerer, but I'd like you to show me on the doll exactly where I said that I thought the playtest guns were too useful. ;-)
All I've been saying is that I don't find a standard action Quick Clear to be game breaking, and tried to provide examples for why. If you're getting something else from that, well, I'm afraid that's just not so. :)
-SPORTS- omitted because I really did want to keep apples-to-apples comparisons in my potion of the discussion, honest! (even if Pendagast makes a good point)
that process, if practiced can be done in about 3 seconds (IF there are no further complications) I have seen soldiers tested on this and repeatedly fail to do it correctly in the allotted time of 30 seconds, mind you these are soldiers, professional soldiers, not amateurs.
Fair points, all. But, hopefully, we're not going to be dealing with automatic fire weapons with Gunslingers. Or if we do, nothing bigger than a revolving barrel repeater.
Anyway. I have also cleared, and reloaded a machine gun in less than three seconds after a misfire.
No reason a fantasy gunner couldn't do it as a move action.
I'm not entirely sure why the focus is on whether or not a Move could be used instead of a Standard so frequently in discussions about this (on this board and elsewhere amongst the playtest community).
Would you mind explaining to me your motivations on doing so? I have a couple of theories, but I'd rather not assume.
Fair point. I'm used to people being highly specific when they discuss firearms, so I think I was subconsciously expecting the Paizonians to use Rifled Musket or "Rifle" in their terminology, not simply "Musket."Also, the first rifles were called RIFLED MUSKETS, because they were muskets, that had been given a rifled barrel.
So the term musket does not necessarily refer to a non rifled weapon.The term Rifle is just shortened from rifled musket, but isn't a proper name for any weapon as it refers to a feature of said weapon and not the weapon itself. (kinda like calling everything with automatic fire, a machinegun.)
musket, rifle it all doesnt matter really, for paizo it's "gun"
Move action would let you quick clear and rapid reload in one round, instead of quick clear this round and reload next round. So at the very least you shoot next round without burning grit on lightening.
I still don't get how my stance makes me suddenly believe that "guns are far too useful" - but okay. I'll agree to disagree with you about the intent of my statements, Sorcerer, if you'll agree with me that if later versions of the firearm list includes anything more advanced than a revolver-style gun is just silly. Deal? ;)