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Mainly in a specific circumstance, but using Signature Deed on the Secret Stash Deed spells a character with infinite bullets and black powder.
Pull out 3 bullets and 3 charges of black powder in no time (no action specified), rinse and repeat. Each iteration is worth 16.5 gp for resale, but it won't take long to gain enough money to retire with capped gear.
Signature Deed (Grit)
By spending grit, you can avoid attacks while shooting
and reloading firearms.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature, gunslinger level 11th.
Benefit: Pick a deed that you have access to and that
you must spend grit to perform. You can perform this
deed for 1 fewer grit point (minimum 0). If the amount of
grit needed to perform the deed is reduced to 0, you can
perform this deed for the normal action cost as long as
you have 1 grit point.
Secret Stash Deed (Grit)
You are so skilled at stashing small packets of firearm
ammunition and black powder on your body that you
sometimes surprise yourself when you find them.
Prerequisites: Grit class feature or Amateur Gunslinger
feat, Slight of Hand 1 rank.
Benefit: Spend 1 grit point to recover 3 bullets and 3
doses of black powder from some hidden stash on your
person that you had, until now, forgotten about.
Consider a Type IV Bag of Holding:
Capacity: 1,500 lbs or 250 cubic feet of materialNo listed weights for bullets and black powder, but this can probably hold a massive quantity.
Sling bullets weigh 5 lbs for 10 of them. Gun bullets are probably lighter, since most of their damage comes from imparted kinetic energy, not innate mass.
Everyone keeps pointing this out, but realistically, is any DM going to let a PC use this as a printing press for cash? As soon as someone tries it, it'll be houseruled in a heart beat. And I'm sure that devs are going to add some sort of stipulation as soon as a rules addendum pops up.
would you really make a gunslinger with only the purpose of getting him to level 11, so that he may retire in glorious wealth due to a relatively minor class feature?
Personally I don't really see what the fuss is all about. You need ammo for your guns, you get a nice way to handle it without blowing all your gold (which you actually need for other things) on gunpowder and nobody has to worry about how many shots you actually have left. The GM can say no at dramatically appropriate times (it's his right after all) and everyone can be happy about the adventure instead of constantly having to lend the gunslinger money for ammo, or keep him alive because all his wealth went into his disposables.
I'm just sorry that the ability comes into play so late. It's a thematically and dramatically wonderful ability and it wouldn't get to shine in most of the games I play. But that's a more personal preference :)
The problem with that house-rule, is that the deed is there to give gunslingers a way to not go broke just playing the game. It's 11 gold per fricken shot lol.
See, since it's "Secret Stash", I read this as having a way to never run out of ammo... not defray the cost of ammo. You're out of town for a week, exploring the wilderness, and then venture into an abandoned cave system... you are cut off from resupply, and will eventually run out of ammunition. Enter secret stash - you can always 'find' more ammo on your person to make use of, therefore keeping your guns usable.
Sure, it doubles as a money saver, but that's not the 'spirit' of the rules.
Isn't it more about what difficult players can argue is "by the book" opposed to what the GM says goes? Limiting Secret Stash will be needed to cut arguments down to a minimum.
This is very simple... Rule 0 trumps all. If you can't handle being Rule 0'd, you need to DM your own game, or find DM that you can push around... and if you're trying to push around one that won't have it, you just lost a gaming session. ;)
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I think that this situation falls well within the bounds of rule 7, and thus should never be an issue. Also as you can only do this at level 11 I'm not sure that any PCs would really care about the cost of powder and shot by this point. It seems to be a way of just not having to worry about managing fiddly finances halfway though the level progression.
I think that this situation falls well within the bounds of rule 7, and thus should never be an issue. Also as you can only do this at level 11 I'm not sure that any PCs would really care about the cost of powder and shot by this point. It seems to be a way of just not having to worry about managing fiddly finances halfway though the level progression.
Yes the feat is much better spent on lightning reload anyway
i think signature deed should be allowable multiple times for multiple seperate deeds. so that guns can have both, a better rate of fire and the ability to not need to track ammunition.
i also beleive that extra channel should be stackable. just like extra ki, extra lay on hands, extra mercy, extra rage, extra rogue talent, extra rage power, extra discovery, extra bombs, and extra music.
That starts getting into just how 'powerful' the capstone ability is... which frankly, I find to be a bit sad... as your ultimate ability at 20th level, you get to do what you can gain at level 11 as a feat, albeit 2x? Really? Definitely somewhat lackluster... especially since most deeds aren't exactly 'powerful' perse.
I would even go so far as to think that maybe a new 20th level ability is called for, and that a 'slinger can choose one particular deed to mark as signature at every level where new deeds are gained... not to mention introduction of a LOT more deeds and rearranging the power level on some of them. (Shoot unattended object and blast lock at level 11? Seriously?)
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That starts getting into just how 'powerful' the capstone ability is... which frankly, I find to be a bit sad... as your ultimate ability at 20th level, you get to do what you can gain at level 11 as a feat, albeit 2x? Really? Definitely somewhat lackluster... especially since most deeds aren't exactly 'powerful' perse.
I would even go so far as to think that maybe a new 20th level ability is called for, and that a 'slinger can choose one particular deed to mark as signature at every level where new deeds are gained... not to mention introduction of a LOT more deeds and rearranging the power level on some of them. (Shoot unattended object and blast lock at level 11? Seriously?)
Blast Lock I agree, but when you can disarm someone with a shot to the arm, then shoot their weapon away from them, it becomes a serious problem. As a swift action you take aim, and shoot the two handed sword out of the barbarian's hand, then you scoot that sword off a cliff. Sure I got an angry barbarian looking at me, but his damage production just went down the toilet without me taking more than a full attack. Especially if you signature deed lightning reload.
EDIT: As for the capstone, I'm more than certain this is a repeat of the Magus class, where they are purposefully undervaluing the Gunslingers abilities to see what is too much for the power curve, far better to start weak and grow stronger than start stronger and grow weaker. Probably the reason why Grit is so limited, because it activates all their worthwhile class features.
Blast Lock I agree, but when you can disarm someone with a shot to the arm, then shoot their weapon away from them, it becomes a serious problem. As a swift action you take aim, and shoot the two handed sword out of the barbarian's hand, then you scoot that sword off a cliff. Sure I got an angry barbarian looking at me, but his damage production just went down the toilet without me taking more than a full attack. Especially if you signature deed lightning reload.That starts getting into just how 'powerful' the capstone ability is... which frankly, I find to be a bit sad... as your ultimate ability at 20th level, you get to do what you can gain at level 11 as a feat, albeit 2x? Really? Definitely somewhat lackluster... especially since most deeds aren't exactly 'powerful' perse.
I would even go so far as to think that maybe a new 20th level ability is called for, and that a 'slinger can choose one particular deed to mark as signature at every level where new deeds are gained... not to mention introduction of a LOT more deeds and rearranging the power level on some of them. (Shoot unattended object and blast lock at level 11? Seriously?)
Oh, that's one of the things I would look forward to doing as a Gunslinger... but you would need to rebalance most everything, and with more low level options, I'm sure the Shoot Unattended staying at a higher-ish level wouldn't be a huge ordeal. As it stands now, how many of the deeds are things you would be super excited to use, aside from targeted torso shots? Heck, one offsets the crummy misfire/broken mechanic at cost of grit, and one lets you go prone for grit... (Devs specified that dive for cover being free was a typo - it's supposed to cost a grit.).
Sorry to get off the original topic... I just really love the flavor of the Gunslinger, and hope a full rewrite happens to make it playable on top of fun.
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Oh, that's one of the things I would look forward to doing as a Gunslinger... but you would need to rebalance most everything, and with more low level options, I'm sure the Shoot Unattended staying at a higher-ish level wouldn't be a huge ordeal. As it stands now, how many of the deeds are things you would be super excited to use, aside from targeted torso shots? Heck, one offsets the crummy misfire/broken mechanic at cost of grit, and one lets you go prone for grit... (Devs specified that dive for cover being free was a typo - it's supposed to cost a grit.).
Sorry to get off the original topic... I just really love the flavor of the Gunslinger, and hope a full rewrite happens to make it playable on top of fun.
I think we can all agree this class is under the harshest scrutiny.
Is the base combo laid out broken?
Nope, not at all. I demand any of you to justify a shop keep to buy ammo for a weapon so exotic in this time and age that they would be willing to buy ammo at half cost to resell. If you are in a steam punk world, this is easier to justify, but in a normal fantasy realm, gunslingers will be so few and far between they would be seen as a curiosity.
Now, back to the discussion at hand, I would like to see them make use of more abilities that require you to have grit, rather than spend it. I think this would add to the flair of the gunslinger, as when a gunslinger runs out of grit, it really begins to sink in. Suddenly he's drained, stuck in a place he really doesn't want to be, and his head just isn't in the game. It creates an interesting momentum with the character that forces the player to DO something or risk their character being horrendously gimped over the course of the next few rounds.
If you notice, Pathfinder has a habit of hitting "I Win" buttons with the nerf bat. It's why CODzilla is resting in peace. Why so many save or dies are now save or take an uncomfortable amount of damage, and why the melee classes are almost equal to spell casters. (There is a number of things a spell caster can do to keep ahead of melee types, but the gap did narrow considerably.)
I honestly believe this is a Magus case, where they are purposefully starting weak and seeing what the class NEEDS to thrive, rather than starting too powerful and worrying that changing ONE mechanic makes the house of cards come crashing down.
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Everyone keeps pointing this out, but realistically, is any DM going to let a PC use this as a printing press for cash? As soon as someone tries it, it'll be houseruled in a heart beat. And I'm sure that devs are going to add some sort of stipulation as soon as a rules addendum pops up.
A sentence along the lines of "this feat can only be used in combat and not for the purposes of wealth accumulation. Any bullets remaining at the end of an encounter returns to the secret stash and are deemed non existing for all intents and purposes." should be added.
PDK - I think that would ruin part of the intent.. as I said, I think even more than the financial savings of spontaneously generating ammo, this helps to keep the character viable when on long tours away from resupply.
Not to say that an addendum isn't required, by any means, but I think it would serve better to simply stipulate that 'secret stash' ammo is only usable by the player that has scavenged it and not viable for resale, though it can be stockpiled for personal use. While some would argue for a 'logical reason why they can't sell it', you can of course steer them towards flying wizards with fireballs and tell them to stuff their logic. ;)
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I still say that shop keeps wouldn't buy ammunition for guns. They'd SELL it sure, but buying it? They can't be certain of the quality, nor of the safety of their shop by buying gunpowder and bullets from a random adventurer. They'd have a little on hand for just in case, but never too much, because it's stock that doesn't move fast.
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I still say that shop keeps wouldn't buy ammunition for guns. They'd SELL it sure, but buying it? They can't be certain of the quality, nor of the safety of their shop by buying gunpowder and bullets from a random adventurer. They'd have a little on hand for just in case, but never too much, because it's stock that doesn't move fast.
And where does that differ from buying any other consumable from an adventurer?
Selling no longer needed potions, for example, or scrolls, or wands. Oops, so much for some of the treasures from an adventure!
Won't wash.
Same for "only usable by the gunslinger who found the stash." type of thing. This is a fairly mundane class as written, needs to stay within mundane stuff to keep the suspension of disbelief going, IMO.
This is a fairly mundane class as written, needs to stay within mundane stuff to keep the suspension of disbelief going, IMO.
Flying wizards casting fireballs.
This is a fairly mundane class as written, needs to stay within mundane stuff to keep the suspension of disbelief going, IMO.Flying wizards casting fireballs.
Argumentum ad Fireballium.
Totally is the Pathfinder equivalent of Reductio ad Hitlerum. But tell me it's not so damned appropriate when folks start bilking ideas due to 'suspension of disbelief' or 'realism'? ;)
We're talking about heroes. Incredible stories, impossible feats. Is one of these heroes seriously going to stoop to infinitely producing ammunition as a source of income, or start a new career as a hero only to capitalize on his newfound weapons monetarily?
As I've said, it irks me that this much conversation has been wasted on two mechanics that have already been clearly noted as issues by the Devs, both of which will no doubt be addressed in whatever revised gunslinger archetype is released for us this week.
How about talking about something that might just help the playtest at this point? ;)