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Whoa...tone it back a notch. He'll get to it when he gets to it. I don't think I need to tone it back - I'm being totally civil and just pointing out that he hasn't delivered on what he stated, and that I'd very much like to get some direction from the official side of things so that we can move the playtest forward. :) I look forward to Stephen's response on this, in fact, as I know he'll give us good information, and will take this post in the spirit it's intended!
RPG Superstar isn´t over. It´s in the quote... If you peek at his recent posts, he did his round of Superstar judge posts and finished them up on February 8th. I can only assume that was his 'guest judging', hence why he expected more attention to the gunslinger (FAQ items) "early that week". ;)
Not trying to stir up anything around here except some progress, but..
Here we are, approximately 2 weeks later, with no updates aside from one or two posts. The playtest first round was slated to run through February 14th - I assumed we would hear something then, or shortly thereafter... but figured "Heck, I'll wait until the end of the work week for some slack time." Besides, as man folks run their games over the weekend, perhaps Friday would be just in time to get new rules out for weekend testing. I was avidly reading and participating in this forum- the Gunslinger has obvious problems and issues, but that is, of course, the reason for a playtest. After February 5th, I continued checking.. with no updates. Now I peek in here every few days, unsurprised at the lack of new information or rules clarifications. Stephen, you're dropping the ball on us here. I say that not to bust chops, but simply as an interested customer eager to help continue your playtest. At this point in time, with no other guns to use, clarifications on some things, or baseline on rule changes for the Gunslinger for the next round, the playtest is essentially at a stand still as we wait for new information and changes. Can we get our update? On the 5th you'd stipulated "FAQ items", but I should hope that at this point, the delay has been due to a great deal of reworking the class that we will see promptly.
This really points out the underlying flaws in the Gunslinger class, ultimately. If you are a Gunslinger, you should be the best with guns. Period. Unfortunately, the class as written isn't. You could do far better by mixing Gunslinger levels with Fighter levels. That tells me the Gunslinger class needs to be reworked.
Stephen, I hope you get things squared away and can give us some info and hopefully improvements soon. It's getting pretty slow around here - methinks most of us have hit the wall on what can be said/done with the current incarnation and need more info and some redesign. :) Hope your weekend was good and restful! We'll all be cracking the whip tomorrow morning, I'm sure. ;)
I believe the bonus is added before the other bonus... ie: you'd end p ultimately with 12-20. 18-20 normal, goes to 15-20 for keen, then 12-20 for improved. You get 'two doubles'... you don't get to actually multiply it out for 4x.
Hey man, like I said - I really hope they do change it to allow it. Maybe changing to allow it along with NOT letting you use signature deed on it would be a fair way to handle it. I will continue to think positive thoughts on them clarifying the rules.. just playing devil's advocate and pointing out the RAW specifically prohibit it in current form.
Sorry dude. There's no wiggle room on this. Both Keen and Improved Crit specifically state that they do not stack with any other effects that increase crit range. Period. RAW say no, torso targeting does not stack. Now, do I also hope that they make it? Yes, I do. But until they say otherwise, if you let it happen, you are houseruling it specifically contrary to the RAW.
Last line under the 'Role' section of Gunslinger from the playtest PDF. "The Gunslinger is an alternate class for the fighter core class." That's pretty obvious. ;) I admit I didn't catch it the first read-through either, though.
I wouldn't be surprised if we get some updates to the playtest for the Gunslinger sooner than the Feb 12th date. It's obvious there's a good deal of work to be done on this class, and that Paizo is well aware of this fact.
Darn you all, and you too, SKR, for derailing this thread horribly. :P And SKR, re: the amount of new magic / caster vs melee etc... I think a lot of people fail to mention the base issue with all of this. New spells can be gained all but instantly for casters. It's rare and difficult for a martial/melee type to get new toys. It's class envy. Not for the class and it's particular abilities in specific, but for not being able to learn something new as soon as it's introduced to the game. New spells hit print, the cleric memorizes them the next morning, the wizard as soon as he can pick up a scroll. But for martial types - new feats mean waiting till you level. And that's assuming you don't need to chase down prereqs. That's my biggest gripe re: new spells being added. But note that I'm not pitching a fit. :) Now, if anyone wants to go back to page one and comment on the things I mentioned about the Gunslinger.... ;)
James: Very excited to see more about the Silver Mount - I assumed there was a PFRPG "Barrier Peaks" in the works eventually, and I for one look forward to it greatly, as I'm sure it'll be worked in wonderfully. Rather than joining the Dev-dogpile on "giving up" and "too much magic in the UC book", could you or one of the other UC-Dev's maybe comment on some of the things I mentioned in my post on the first page of this thread? I think it collects a lot of the concerns and things noted by the playtest community at large here, minus the sensationalism. Also, please, please, PLEASE- make sure they correct "Scoot Unattended Object" to "SHOOT", as I'm growing ever so tired of seeing folks quote it repeatedly as "Scoot". ;) We all appreciate the effort you guys put into everything, and as I'm sure you all understand full well, the 'outrage' resultant is really only indicative of how much folks love the product you've created. It's hard to get worked up over something you don't care about! ;)
(there are more pages in Ultimate Combat devoted to spells than there are devoted to gunslinger + firearms combined). That quote is a bit worrisome, I'll admit. It is truly difficult to give an fair and balanced assessment of Gunslinger as a class when we don't have access to the range of weapons they will have. That being said, a few general points, since this thread has the eyes of the devs. Please take these as constructive, as I truly look forward to playing a 'slinger ASAP! These ideas are not necessarily my own in particular, but more a list of thoughts from reading the forum here at large- if you see your idea, pat yourself on the back. ;) - Many more Deeds are required - look at rogue/ninja and their list of talents, which are *not* predicated by spending point from a finite pool. Introducing a great deal more Deeds will allow for selecting from a list of Deeds, and that would let us customize our Gunslinger for our own playstyle. This can include 'lines' of Deeds geared towards specific fighting styles... ie: 2H Firearm Marksman vs. TWF Pistol-wielder vs. Pirate style 1H weapon and 1H Pistol. - Strength level of deeds: Frankly, most of the deeds as listed seem so low power that I am not interested in them, and some of the flavorful / fun Deeds are reached far too late for them to be 'fun' - ie: Shoot Unattended Object at 11th level? Really? - Reload Times: This is a large part of why we care so much about what guns will be available... a martial class with full BAB that needs to spend 3 feats (Rapid and Lightning Reload, Signature Deed) so that they can reach their full iterative attacks only at level 11 is simply not viable. If revolvers / repeaters will be in play, reload times are important, but not nearly AS important as they are with single shot fire arms. Rapid Reload as a class feature might very well be warranted. - Damage Output: I leave this to the guys willing to do math, but it is compounded by the reload time/iterative attack issues, whatever the case may be. As an attempt at making the Gunslinger 'special' regarding guns, why not add in DEX modifier to firearm damage at level 1 for Gunslingers, and then perhaps allow for adding WIS damage via Gun Training to specific weaponry. This max firearms slightly more competitive on a shot for shot basis with bows, and allows them to extend their damage a bit with the WIS boost to combat the iterative attack/reload time disparity with bows. - Dead Levels: Brave and Tough? Much like even levels for a Cleric, the 'Brave and Tough' levels are just plain disappointing. Again, adding in a great many more Deeds would offset this by allowing folks to get new Deeds at every single level, even if they are minor ones. - Feats: Again, hard to judge without the specifics of available weapons, but it's alreaedy been mentioned clearly and repeatedly that the 'slinger will need to spend 3 feats in order to reach full iterative attacks, and this only at level 11. Considering most will likely want to add in Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, this class is insanely feat heavy, and the deeds are frankly not offsetting the fighter bonus feats that are missed out on at this point. - HP / BAB / Saves / Proficiencies: This looks great to me. It's a martial class. You trade out heavy armor and gain exotic:firearms. Good deal. - Grit: More Grit, please. Perhaps WIS modifier + 1/2 level. Also, create more deeds that require having grit in your pool as opposed to spending grit. - Firearm rules: Perhaps part of what is upsetting folks most is how it was explicitly stated that firearm rules are set in stone. It's hard to playtest a class, based around those rules, withoutfull information on available weapons, when right off the bat we are told 'this does not change'. If that is the case, which is fine, then the Gunslinger needs to have innate features that overcome the inherent disabilities of firearms. You are more likely to have your weapon explode than to score a crit. That is a huge problem. Guns should have a misfire chance, and if for balance and 'rare expensive and new technology' reasons the misfire chance must be that high, then the Gunslinger needs to be immune to misfiring, and without expenditure of Grit. It is counterintuitive to have a specialist at something need to spend their very finite 'Grit' to simply not have their equipment explode in their hands. As has been said before - offsetting a powerful weapon with a disadvantage like misfire is absolutely sensible - but firearms are kin to crossbows, and do not need to be balanced thusly. - Pricing: The exorbitant pricing is sensible if you are striving to keep the weapons rare and unusual. I will not argue that. The problem is that you need to now justify these extremely expensive weapons to a 1st level character. 11gp per shot is also unreasonable - a starting character simply can't afford to use his class defining weaponry at that price. - Crafting rules/bonuses: Can we get some info on making firearms, shot, blackpowder, etc? Along with inherent bonuses for the gunslinger class? - Perception: Uhm... this seems a no brainer, methinks? - Signature Deed & Secret Stash: This needs some form of clarification, as far too many folks have already stipulated that it's an exploitable printing press.
Totally is the Pathfinder equivalent of Reductio ad Hitlerum. But tell me it's not so damned appropriate when folks start bilking ideas due to 'suspension of disbelief' or 'realism'? ;) We're talking about heroes. Incredible stories, impossible feats. Is one of these heroes seriously going to stoop to infinitely producing ammunition as a source of income, or start a new career as a hero only to capitalize on his newfound weapons monetarily? As I've said, it irks me that this much conversation has been wasted on two mechanics that have already been clearly noted as issues by the Devs, both of which will no doubt be addressed in whatever revised gunslinger archetype is released for us this week. How about talking about something that might just help the playtest at this point? ;)
This is a fairly mundane class as written, needs to stay within mundane stuff to keep the suspension of disbelief going, IMO. Flying wizards casting fireballs.
Never got the interest in spending traits on starting wealth that can be made up in a single encounter in a level or so... I always leaned towards things that would actually stay with your entire adventuring career, like Reactionary and the +2 initiative bonus, or Dangerously Curious for classes that don't get UMD as a skill, etc. That said, good points are made here - is it really worth while to make a Gunslinger and then sell your guns when you could instead stack some traits and still keep your guns?
One lesser deed per level and one greater deed per 2 or 3 levels would be ideal, really. You just need to balance them out such that the lesser deeds add flavor and utility, while the greater deeds are the real damage/ability boosters. Shoot unattended, blast lock, going prone, these can be lessers... Targeting and the like would be greater. In your examples, perhaps the feat that reduces TWF with pistols by -1 could be lesser, and the upgrade would then be greater. With more deeds of two 'strengths' and choosing between the entire list, you can actually BUILD your gunfighter... some might be true ranged weapon specialists with scoped muskets dealing big damage on single shots every round, others might be swashbuckling about with a rapier in one hand and a pistol in the other, and some might be running into the middle of the melee with short-barreled blunderbust/shotguns- firing point blank and pistolwhipping left and right. If you're going to have one and only one class for "Gunslinger", then you need to provide a plethora of deeds and options to allow for a myriad of different builds.
Make it a third-hand, hand-me-down, battered piece of equipment of a pistol/musket, one the gunslinger is continually tinkering with to keep in working order. It will only work for the 'slinger, and has no measurable monetary value as far as sale, since it only works for that particular 'slinger. Easy stuff. I just hate that so much time and posting has been wasted over two topics that are obviously going to be amended and are such obvious loophole issues (starting firearm value and secret stash+signature deed ammo creation). There are a metric buttload of other genuine things to discuss to make this a viable class, these two topics are of no merit whatsoever in the big picture.
DM intervention and a sense of fair play and decency come readily to mind. +1 Seriously, how many people out there would seriously be excited to either sell their starting guns for other equipment, or make it to 11th level just to have an infinite ammunition supply to try and sell? My DM will attest to me being something of a min/maxing munchkin, but I'm really glad no one in my gaming group would stoop to things such as unlimited cash production via rules loop hole, or making a gunslinger ust to sell their class items for more other starting loot.
Far from perfect, needs plenty of adjusting and tuning and tweaking, but this is exactly the sort of change I think we need to see. A long list of deeds to choose from, some of which are only accesible at higher levels. Perhaps 1 deed/level would be a good way of going about it.. perhaps more. Perhaps "lesser" and "greater" deeds, with access to all lesser per level, and choosing from a list of greater deeds, some of which are only available at certain levels. More deeds is key to the class, IMO. Lots of them. Lets you build your own gunslinger to your own style and flavor, keeps it interesting. Reloading: should be addressed, perhaps rapid reload as a starting feat. Gunslinger specific weapon bonuses: I'd make gunslingers automatically add DEX modifier or maybe WIS modifier in damage to all firearm attacks starting at first level, removing it as part of gun training. Also, a system to reduce and remove misfire chances for free, otherwise Deeds to do so become a 'deed tax'.
PDK - I think that would ruin part of the intent.. as I said, I think even more than the financial savings of spontaneously generating ammo, this helps to keep the character viable when on long tours away from resupply. Not to say that an addendum isn't required, by any means, but I think it would serve better to simply stipulate that 'secret stash' ammo is only usable by the player that has scavenged it and not viable for resale, though it can be stockpiled for personal use. While some would argue for a 'logical reason why they can't sell it', you can of course steer them towards flying wizards with fireballs and tell them to stuff their logic. ;)
Blast Lock I agree, but when you can disarm someone with a shot to the arm, then shoot their weapon away from them, it becomes a serious problem. As a swift action you take aim, and shoot the two handed sword out of the barbarian's hand, then you scoot that sword off a cliff. Sure I got an angry barbarian looking at me, but his damage production just went down the toilet without me taking more than a full attack. Especially if you signature deed lightning reload. Oh, that's one of the things I would look forward to doing as a Gunslinger... but you would need to rebalance most everything, and with more low level options, I'm sure the Shoot Unattended staying at a higher-ish level wouldn't be a huge ordeal. As it stands now, how many of the deeds are things you would be super excited to use, aside from targeted torso shots? Heck, one offsets the crummy misfire/broken mechanic at cost of grit, and one lets you go prone for grit... (Devs specified that dive for cover being free was a typo - it's supposed to cost a grit.). Sorry to get off the original topic... I just really love the flavor of the Gunslinger, and hope a full rewrite happens to make it playable on top of fun.
That starts getting into just how 'powerful' the capstone ability is... which frankly, I find to be a bit sad... as your ultimate ability at 20th level, you get to do what you can gain at level 11 as a feat, albeit 2x? Really? Definitely somewhat lackluster... especially since most deeds aren't exactly 'powerful' perse. I would even go so far as to think that maybe a new 20th level ability is called for, and that a 'slinger can choose one particular deed to mark as signature at every level where new deeds are gained... not to mention introduction of a LOT more deeds and rearranging the power level on some of them. (Shoot unattended object and blast lock at level 11? Seriously?)
Both can take weapon focus, greater weapon focus and weapon specialization in any weapon by that level (though for the sake of argument we'll focus those on gunslinging).as far as I can tell gunslinger can't take those Gunslinger is a fighter archetype... meaning that he is a fighter, with certain powers/abilities swapped out. Ie: Gun Training replaces Weapon Training and so forth. As a fighter archetype, any Fighter specific feats or items etc. can be used by the Gunslinger. If you've read the APG, Gunslinger is similar to the "Phalanx Fighter" or "Polearm Master" archetypes, albeit Slinger has many more specific abilities than any other archetype.
See, since it's "Secret Stash", I read this as having a way to never run out of ammo... not defray the cost of ammo. You're out of town for a week, exploring the wilderness, and then venture into an abandoned cave system... you are cut off from resupply, and will eventually run out of ammunition. Enter secret stash - you can always 'find' more ammo on your person to make use of, therefore keeping your guns usable. Sure, it doubles as a money saver, but that's not the 'spirit' of the rules.
This is very simple... Rule 0 trumps all. If you can't handle being Rule 0'd, you need to DM your own game, or find DM that you can push around... and if you're trying to push around one that won't have it, you just lost a gaming session. ;)
I would wager that people don't realize it due to the fact that most of the Deeds are flavor and neat, but don't provide true utility or true damage improvements. Sure, the fighter would need to spend some feats, but he can drop 3 feats into Grit, Lightning Reload, and Signature Deed, and will continue to get more Feats than the gunslinger past 11th level. I won't break it down deed by deed here, but how many will ultimately be used on a regular basis? The answer is: not many, at all. When your 'defining class features' aren't something to be excited over, you have a problem at the core of the classes creation.
While I dig the thought put into this reloading feature, I think at the end of the day, avoiding a 'realistic explanation' to the speed reloads is probably the best way of handling things. ;) I absolutely agree that the RP elements of the class are what sells me, but iterative attacks are a encessity in lieu of larger single shot damage, which isn't happening- in fact, there are no deeds to even increase damage output, short of targeted chest shots. I think the spirit of the class is awesome, but we're more or less sitting at the point of a nearly complete rewrite. None of the deeds are very exciting or overly useful comparative to the chance of misfire, the slow reloads taking you out of the action, the dead levels of "Brave and Tough" rewards, etc.
Everyone keeps pointing this out, but realistically, is any DM going to let a PC use this as a printing press for cash? As soon as someone tries it, it'll be houseruled in a heart beat. And I'm sure that devs are going to add some sort of stipulation as soon as a rules addendum pops up.
I'm also at a loss as to why "Brave and Tough" is a class feature as opposed to being factored directly into the saves. My best guess is that since this is a 'fighter archetype' that they are keeping the exact same table for fighter progression as far as BAB and Saves. If that's the case, this is a great example as to why they need to ditch this 'archetype' thing and make it it's own class.
Frankly, given that you don't have access to these until 11th level (Halfway through your adventuring career...) I should hope that they are all but auto-successes. These should really be things you have access to at like, first level. Shoot unattended object is not exactly a powerhouse of a maneuver. The best use I see for it is coupled with a targeted shot. You shoot the weapon out of someone's hand, and then shoot it away from them. Aside from that... not useful very commonly. And certainly sub par for an 11th level ability. Again I say - I love the flavor they are going for with the Gunslinger, but the delivery is just horribly wrong and nearly unplayable. I'm all about shooting the gun out of someone's hand and then shooting it away from them, even if it's costing me my limited grit... but 11th level? Really?
I don't envision it as a 30 foot jump.. I'm picturing the gunslinger jumping, rolling across bar tops, sliding across the floor, etc... Basically spending a grit to flip and slid and jump and dive in the course of his normal movement. Again, this is just my take on it and how I'd let a player use it. I will definitely agree that further explanation on it is needed from the Devs.
Personally, since this is costing your a grit point, AND specifies that you fall prone at the end of the movement, I would let it ignore low obstacles and terrain - you are jumping around.. I like to picture the gunslinger landing prone because he's sliding on his back all John Woo style. ;)
I really don't mean to come off rude, but I honestly can't deal with reading that much commentary with no punctuation. >.<
While the gunslinger class in present playtest form is really all but unplayable, the thing I love the most is the feel and style of the class itself. That said, I will continue to hope that with other weapons revealed and some of the great feedback that's been given, the rest of the class will become more viable. That said, on to my thought- and this is based solely off the dashing and bravado inherent in the Gunslinger as I see them - why about adding a deed that allows the Gunslinger to spend Grit to add to their Acrobatics, possibly also Sleight of Hand? This could scale with level (+5 at First, +10 at 4th? Balance can be adjusted.), and maybe last for 1 action, or maybe last for X rounds, etc. It would basically just account for the Gunslinger 'manning up' and leaping into action in some crazed fashion- swinging from chandelier, sliding across the top of a bar, diving around a corner guns blazing, etc. Sleight of Hand could apply too, for things like juggling a pistol into the air while punching an enemy or throwing an improvised weapon at them, etc. Certainly not overpowering, certainly not going to fix the current pains of the class, but for flavor, panache, and fun, I think this would be a great use of Grit at the right moment.
Both Keen and Improved specifically say that they do not stack with any other abilities/feats/etc that increase crit range, however. So until they specify otherwise (which I hope they do, as this is the only +damage option via Grit) we really have to assume they don't stack.
My two cents, clearly, but this seems like it is one of the defining bits of the Gunslinger Class. The +1 is nice, but the +DEX mod damage is the real gravy here. Any guy with a bow, at first level, can add STR damage via Composite Bow. (I won't get into the obvious debate over why Composite Bows should be exotic...) You would think that, at first level, a gunslinger, who makes his trade around this particular piece of hardware, a specialist in firearm combat, should really have that same advantage right off the bat, no? There are a number of other things to consider, but this one strikes me as a bit silly right off the bat. If not 1st level, perhaps 2nd? I can't foresee why you'd need to wait till 5th level in order to become better than other folk at shooting your specialist tool of the trade.
I think you forget that a dev already replied in this very thread stating we would be happy to see the other firearms types that will be coming out, dude. ;) The single shot situation is obviously going to be remedied.
then again, signature deed will only be used for one thing; lightning reload. might as well just name it improved lightning reload then. I think Signature Deed gives you the flavor and versatility to really make the Gunslinger your own. Sure, the obvious 'best use' is for Lightning Reload. Hopefully that will change and reload will become a class feature, and/or less necessary given Revolvers/Repeaters. But whether it does or doesn't, look at the options you have with Signature Deed on all of these: Pistol-Whip: You can always use your guns as melee weapons. At +2. Also at +-whatever the enhancement on a magic gun is. Does Gun Training stack in as well? I would assume the +1 to hit for it does. So you gain +3 and can threaten melee with your guns? Covering Shot: Everytime you miss a target, they are entangled for a round. Awesome. Targetting: For free, every round you can either deal normal damage and confuse the target for a round, double your crit range, disarm, or knock prone on a successful hit. Startling Shot: As Covering shot, except the target is flat footed. Can you stack these? Ridiculous if you can. Expert Loading: You never have to deal with broken guns again. They will never explode in your face. Stunning Shot or Deadly Shot: Any time you crit you can choose to do normal damage to instead stun the target or attempt a death effect. Deft Shootist Feat: You can shoot and reload in melee without provoking AoO all the time. Ricochet Shot: You don't ever need line of sight to shoot guys if there is a wall nearby. Add in a scope, or burn one grit, and you can do it at any range as a Touch AC attack. So... really... Signature Deed is ridiculous. Covering/Startling shot with Signature Deed mean that you either hit for damage or miss for a debuff. That's ugly, and I expect it will get nerfed. It's far from just being useful for Lightning Reload.
It's all based on monetary values... 1 pistol and 50 shots is about 1,500gp. A musket is about 1500gp. I'm sure your DM would probably be fine with taking 1 pistol, 50 shots, and 500gp.. it's all the same in the end.
There was a Dev post on this. It is exactly as written - you get a Musket and 50 shots ( 2000gp value) or 2 pistols (2000gp value) and have to buy your own ammo with the pistols from your starting funds.
Devs already stated that there are more firearm options in Ultimate Combat, but this is the class playtest, not the weapon playtest. I'd say it's silly to limit the weapons in the playtest seeing as how the class is built around those weapons, but that's just me. ;)
I'd probably consider skipping Rapid Reload entirely, and instead shooting for Lightning Reload Deed (feat) and apply Signature Deed (feat) to it, therefore letting me reload as a free action as long as I have 1 grit in my pool. Now for 2 feats spent you are no longer confined to thinking about reloads as far as iterative attacks, TWF, rapid shot, etc.
Foghammer: I absolutely agree, it should stack, as it is the only Deed that increases damage output! That being said, RAW would imply that it presently does not stack. And if they do allow it to stack, you run into the problem of folks takin Signature Deed, applying it to Targetting, and also having Improved Critical. Now every round, for no grit spent, your Crit Range goes to 17-20? WIth a x4 modifier, that's serious business, and will start getting you back a lot of grit points due to landing criticals...
The firearm range/penetration blurb says, specifically "the attack resolves against the target's Touch AC." Both my DM and I took this to mean that you are not rolling a 'ranged touch attack'... it is specifically an ranged attack roll against the Touch AC as opposed to the AC, and thus would allow for Deadly Aim to be applied. So- is it a 'ranged touch attack'? Or is it an 'attack roll vs touch ac'? :) Given that there are no deeds to specifically enhance damage, and that in fact the only damage boost comes from Gun Training, Deadly Aim would seem to be very important to the 'slinger!
Improved Critical and Keen both specifically state that no critical range increasing effects stack. I would guess that since there is nothing to state that a targeted torso attack breaks this rule, it does not stack. Per the Keen Edge spell description: "Multiple effects that increase a weapon's threat range (such as the keen special weapon property and the Improved Critical feat) don't stack." Per Improved Critical: "This effect doesn't stack with any other effect that expands the threat range of a weapon." |
