Personally, Id loose the "regain grit" part of things and let the +2 grit here and there plus the option to get additional grit from a feat or two... that should be enough, especially when reloading fast ( a necessity) doesnt cost grit.Once again I agree with your idea. So it leaves us with non light pistols and misfire. If those two were added, I would say that the concept is complete and total. The final step would be adding deeds, and with deeds you could balance the class if there are any rough edges.
Deeds and levels of experience (combined) can nearly nullify misfire/jam. but it will still be there for the neophyte which is both a good thing and important to keep the gun rare. think about people trying to steal your guns, sell your guns or you gunfighters mistress getting made at you and trying to hold up you with your own pistol? HaH! you misfired!
The weapons will have a 'reputation' as being unreliable, and therefor difficult to sell, and if someone did sell them, they would be cheaper for you to pick up, "what? you want to buy this thing? suuuuure just dont try and fire it buddy! It's a wall hanger"
All those experiences for role playing would be robbed from your character if you got rid of the failure chance. (i just dont think it should be AS bad as it is)
also the light weapon thing isnt that much of an issue. It's -4/-4, and could be addressed maybe a little more with the combat style for fighting with two weapons.
I would not make the guns lighter, that would be giving everyone a bonus, but I would get a deed or part of the combat style to offset the fact that they aren't light.
even in the Starwars universe the lightsaber is a weapon you wont see those not trained in it, use. It's renown for people accidentally cutting their own limbs off by accident.
What makes the lightsaber so cool isnt so much the saber, but the jedi.
Done right the gun/gunslinger could be the same way.
Really a simple Deed could be:
Rootin Tootin: The Gunslinger with these deed must have the shootist combat style, for purposes of shooting to guns at once, the gunslinger treats pistols as light weapons. A gunslinger must be 4th level before taking this deed.
Simple, done.
Personally, Id loose the "regain grit" part of things and let the +2 grit here and there plus the option to get additional grit from a feat or two... that should be enough, especially when reloading fast ( a necessity) doesnt cost grit.Once again I agree with your idea. So it leaves us with non light pistols and misfire. If those two were added, I would say that the concept is complete and total. The final step would be adding deeds, and with deeds you could balance the class if there are any rough edges.
Deeds and levels of experience (combined) can nearly nullify misfire/jam. but it will still be there for the neophyte which is both a good thing and important to keep the gun rare. think about people trying to steal your guns, sell your guns or you gunfighters mistress getting made at you and trying to hold up you with your own pistol? HaH! you misfired!
The weapons will have a 'reputation' as being unreliable, and therefor difficult to sell, and if someone did sell them, they would be cheaper for you to pick up, "what? you want to buy this thing? suuuuure just dont try and fire it buddy! It's a wall hanger"
All those experiences for role playing would be robbed from your character if you got rid of the failure chance. (i just dont think it should be AS bad as it is)
also the light weapon thing isnt that much of an issue. It's -4/-4, and could be addressed maybe a little more with the combat style for fighting with two weapons.
I would not make the guns lighter, that would be giving everyone a bonus, but I would get a deed or part of the combat style to offset the fact that they aren't light.
even in the Starwars universe the lightsaber is a weapon you wont see those not trained in it, use. It's renown for people accidentally cutting their own limbs off by accident.
What makes the lightsaber so cool isnt so much the saber, but the jedi.
Done right the gun/gunslinger could be the same way.
Really a simple Deed could be:
Rootin Tootin: The Gunslinger with these deed must have the shootist combat style, for purposes of shooting two pistols, one in each hand, the gunslinger treats pistols as light weapons. A gunslinger must be 4th level before taking this deed.
Simple, done.
Rootin Tootin is a nice solution (I had something along those lines in mind). Yes, I still think that a gunslinger should be unable to misfire, but can still fumble. Other classes using firearms should be able to misfire. Multiple barrels (manyshot, rapid shot, BAB and 2WF additional attacks need an explanation, and this seems the best one) and we are set.
well misfire is really the weapon, not the gunslinger, deeds should lessen this (and there are some) I would say an accomplished gunslinger with enough deeds, could jam but not blow up and gun. Quick clear I like.
Having to either fix your main weapon, pull out the back up or move to a melee weapon is fun and exciting, plus what would quickdraw before, if your gun NEVER failed? Party favor tricks?
Nice outline.
I can definitely see a certain level of modularity...
Between keeping some of the more Rangery abilities, and other more Gun/Tech/Social focus...
A `weapon bond` I can see as `tinkering` with a weapon they`ve had (1 week minimum?),
and it allows adding A CERTAIN LIST of gun weapon enhancements, mostly the `unique` gun enhancements, but certain others as appropriate (distance, flaming, flaming burst?, seeking? i can even see a special exception allowing pitfall as an enhancement on guns for gunslingers... they can use them as melee with the same enhancement bonus, so that may be legit, even)
favored enemy / favored terrain i don`t really see... i suppose i could see wording to allow them to take `extra favored terrain` feats or something, but not beyond that. maybe at most, have them gain 1 favored terrain at mid-level. spells and other effects exist to boost this if they want, but it wouldn`t be a BIG feature like it is for the ranger.
deeds can really be upgraded... have a more distinct set of abilities, possibly with separate names (deeds vs. ?), one is `always usable` (or always usable with 1 grit), the other uses up grit. the current set-up just isn`t that clear, imho.
give them cool new things to do with skills. engineering/alchemy as base for demolitions i`ve mentioned before. why not a special use of bluff to guarantee they act first in Init (in certain conditions)? doesn`t that scream gunslinger? rangers tend to have a strong out-of-combat role, i don`t see why gunslingers can`t also, though in different areas. i don`t think gunslingers need QUITE as many skill points as rangers, but 4 or maybe 5+int would be a good amount.
...as i said before, i CAN see a Gun Specialist Fighter, but the Gunslinger just seems like it`s trying to do too much beyond that. Pseudo-2 Good Saves for one.
depending on how you deal with Natural 1s/fumbles, a Ninja or any othe Poison user could indeed wound themselves and poison themselves. It`s just that the don`t do it as part of APPLYING/preparing the poison.
Nice outline.
I can definitely see a certain level of modularity...
Between keeping some of the more Rangery abilities, and other more Gun/Tech/Social focus...A `weapon bond` I can see as `tinkering` with a weapon they`ve had (1 week minimum?),
and it allows adding A CERTAIN LIST of gun weapon enhancements, mostly the `unique` gun enhancements, but certain others as appropriate (distance, flaming, flaming burst?, seeking? i can even see a special exception allowing pitfall as an enhancement on guns for gunslingers... they can use them as melee with the same enhancement bonus, so that may be legit, even)favored enemy / favored terrain i don`t really see... i suppose i could see wording to allow them to take `extra favored terrain` feats or something, but not beyond that. maybe at most, have them gain 1 favored terrain at mid-level. spells and other effects exist to boost this if they want, but it wouldn`t be a BIG feature like it is for the ranger.
deeds can really be upgraded... have a more distinct set of abilities, possibly with separate names (deeds vs. ?), one is `always usable` (or always usable with 1 grit), the other uses up grit. the current set-up just isn`t that clear, imho.
give them cool new things to do with skills. engineering/alchemy as base for demolitions i`ve mentioned before. why not a special use of bluff to guarantee they act first in Init (in certain conditions)? doesn`t that scream gunslinger? rangers tend to have a strong out-of-combat role, i don`t see why gunslingers can`t also, though in different areas. i don`t think gunslingers need QUITE as many skill points as rangers, but 4 or maybe 5+int would be a good amount.
...as i said before, i CAN see a Gun Specialist Fighter, but the Gunslinger just seems like it`s trying to do too much beyond that. Pseudo-2 Good Saves for one.
I dont have favored enemy in there at all, and I can see the terrain thing more for the sniper types, but as i said dont have to have terrain in there at all.
I like the gun tinkering.
I can see distance, and other enhancements, maybe even a special one just for firearms...reliability (this weapon doesn't jam, explode or misfire) obviously, these tinker upgrades would only work in the hands of the gunslinger, like the paladins spirit weapon only works for him.
maybe the rootin tootin deed only works with the gunslingers specially tinkered weapons?
yes, "shootist" is basically two weapon fighting style, the feat tree (or list of feats might be slightly different)
sniper = archery
musketeer= two weapon with a gun/melee weapon.
Under standard ranger those "combat styles" are just a list of feats to take, for the gunslinger, the names of the styles are just thematic, and the list of feats would feature what you are trying to accomplish.
The gun only hits touch AC at close range.
we aren't worried about nature anything with gunslinger, only the mechanics of the base class. Saves, skills, BAB and class features.
The gunslinger drops spells and nature abilities and picks up grit and hand guns, but mechanically the entire class more mirrors the rangers stats and work up.
You are mixing up theme and mechanics.
the fighter has a different set of base saves, skills and class abilities than a ranger, the only thing they have in common is full BAB and all martial weapons, incidentally the only thing the gunslinger and a fighter have in common is full BAB and all martial weapons.
Curious.
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I believe you are focussing to much on one specific implementation you want and not enough on just a style.
...I think you are focussing to much on the gun specialisation and to little on the nature aspect and their versatility. If this is what is the ideal way to do it, I'll repeat what I've said before, I don't think ranger is the right class. You can better use fighter or just create a whole new class (which I think they should have done).
Look at the normal ranger. The sole focus on their weapons is the combat style. All other abilities add versatility.
I think you might be the one looking at this the wrong way. The problem is that the Fighter is so focused on smashy smashy that it fails to do anything else with any kind of skill. IT has crap skill ranks, crap class skills, and no abilities which help it out of combat. Now I know many fighter supporters say that you can support out of combat skills with feats but it has been my experience that it is difficult to be good at skills, have saves that approach those of classes like the Ranger, and still be good damage dealers. I think basing anything off Fighter is a good way to reduce interest for many experienced gamers out there.
I just found that playing the gunslinger last night, terrain and movement count alot, reloading, manuevering for a shot, playing keep away with meleeists.
If i had feats like a fighter id take fleet twice.
i could use some favored terrain bonuses!
I think basing anything off Fighter is a good way to reduce interest for many experienced gamers out there.
I think the real issue is that Fighter is already such a stripped down chasis made for customization that it doesn't lend itself to an alternate class concept that easily. Disregarding a DPR race maximization situation, I can currently create: a ranged fighter, a pugilist, a sword and boarder, a mounted fighter, a polearm fighter, a two handed or two weapon fighter, or multiclass into something to add a bit of exotic mystique. I personally dig fighters but I feel like if I'm going down that road I can build the kind of character I want because...it's a fighter I've decided to build.
Choosing an Alternate Fighter Class of Gunslinger seems like something a fighter could do with new bonus feats/abilities as an archetype. But to me that wouldn't really be the right flavor of a gunslinger based on history, fiction and more fiction.
Ranger works well in my mind as an alternate class chasis because it is somewhat narrowed in concept and not everything can be achieved through an archetype due to the extent of modifications and substitutions.
I hope this thread's ideas catch fire in the minds of someone in charge because Gunslinger as a fighter alt would be the first time I felt a little let down by Pathfinder mechanics (which really doesn't amount to a hill of beans to anyone but me and my dog). I suppose the worst case scenario is that I just come hunting for Pendagast's Gunslinger alternate class : )
Ashiel has a pretty slick rewrite as well. It pretty much addresses the problems I have with the class in different ways.
For anyone who heard the word "Gunslinger" and thought badass gun-kata, check out Ashiel's Gunslinger over in his big thread. It is fantastic, and as far as me and my DM are concerned, it is the real Gunslinger.
I think the real issue is that Fighter is already such a stripped down chasis made for customization that it doesn't lend itself to an alternate class concept that easily.
+1
Ashiel has a pretty slick rewrite as well. It pretty much addresses the problems I have with the class in different ways.For anyone who heard the word "Gunslinger" and thought badass gun-kata, check out Ashiel's Gunslinger over in his big thread. It is fantastic, and as far as me and my DM are concerned, it is the real Gunslinger.
where is it?
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where is it?
Here is the thread that includes it.
Here is the link to the class.
I'd have linked them before but I was on my Droid.
where is it?Here is the thread that includes it.
Here is the link to the class.
I'd have linked them before but I was on my Droid.
yea the problem is the class i based on the fact that revolvers and rifles and cartridge ammo will be available.
It seems the Dev's had said guns won't change (much)
So, that being said. its good for homebrew!
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yea the problem is the class i based on the fact that revolvers and rifles and cartridge ammo will be available.
It seems the Dev's had said guns won't change (much)
So, that being said. its good for homebrew!
Ashiel makes a good point that because of how powerful bows and magic is, guns would be a bizarre choice for anyone to make unless the tech level was more advanced then what they're showing us.
It would be like you choosing to use a knife in a gunfight for a PC to choose a gun in a sword fight in Golarion.
im not doing that bad in my playtests, ive only gotten one of my party killed so far!!
im not doing that bad in my playtests, ive only gotten one of my party killed so far!!Are you playing at level 11 or higher? Before then an Archer Ranger is markedly better. Even afterwards the skills, Animal Companion, and so forth will probably allow the Ranger to show better.
Oh i didnt say i wouldnt be better as a ranger variant, i whole heartedly agree, but once i got one out in the field he isnt AS bad as i thought hed' be.
AS a ranger variant id have alot more fun, not to mention not wasting a feat on TWF as id get it as a combat syle.
and no he's level 8 right now. it doesnt seem the issues are with the gunslinger after 11th, at least not the ones im trying to test. although Raving Dork says after 11th the gunslinger lags way behind in damage dealing.