I think the misfire rules are fair.Your chance of the gun BLOWING UP is greater than your chance of confirming a critical hit.
No it isn't.
To blow up a gun you need to misfire twice. With a misfire range of 1, and a crit range of 1, that means a potential crit is as likely as a misfire for a pistol.
You chances of confirming are often going to be in the range of 25%-50% at long range and closer to 95% at close range.
The probability of a confirm crit is considerably higher that an exploding weapon(especially as repairing a misfire rather than using it a second time is a better choice than risking losing the weapon.)
There is absolutely no confirming roll in regards to firearm misfiring right now. It's a static % per shot fired. This is completely horribad. It would still be bad if it was a standard critical failure mechanic.
Extra dice rolling for the sake of verisimilitude is not a good design element.
I thought of something completely different.I also thought of something different, but perhaps not AS different.
I too thought of something different.
Not sure how many of you are familiar with this series… It happens to be one of my personal favorites. :)
I like the misfire mechanic, but it needs to be toned back. Having it only apply to non-masterwork/non-magical firearms is good compromise I think.
At low levels, your gun actually risks KILLING YOU if it explodes at the wrong time. At higher levels, after an upgrade or replacement, it becomes a non-issue, allowing high-level heroes to be heroic and not stupid.
I think the misfire rules are fair.Your chance of the gun BLOWING UP is greater than your chance of confirming a critical hit.
No it isn't.
To blow up a gun you need to misfire twice. With a misfire range of 1, and a crit range of 1, that means a potential crit is as likely as a misfire for a pistol.
You chances of confirming are often going to be in the range of 25%-50% at long range and closer to 95% at close range.
The probability of a confirm crit is considerably higher that an exploding weapon(especially as repairing a misfire rather than using it a second time is a better choice than risking losing the weapon.)
There is absolutely no confirming roll in regards to firearm misfiring right now. It's a static % per shot fired. This is completely horribad. It would still be bad if it was a standard critical failure mechanic.
Extra dice rolling for the sake of verisimilitude is not a good design element.
You don't roll any extra dice.
if you roll a 1, you miss and you gun is broken(-4 to hit)
If you attack without clearing the gun, and you roll a 1 again, the gun is destroyed.
No extra rolling, quick, smooth, not even very dangerous misfire rules.
And i never said that you have to roll to conferm the misfire. But unless you misfire twice without clearing your gun, it isn't going to blow up and destory itself. that is important because cartigan was claiming that the gun was going to blow up more often than it crit, which is wrong.
I like the misfire mechanic, but it needs to be toned back. Having it only apply to non-masterwork/non-magical firearms is good compromise I think.
At low levels, your gun actually risks KILLING YOU if it explodes at the wrong time. At higher levels, after an upgrade or replacement, it becomes a non-issue, allowing high-level heroes to be heroic and not stupid.
For all we know, we will see exactly this. after all, there are very cut down rules. My gut tells me though that master crafting will lower the misfire by one step, rather than just getting rid of it.
You don't roll any extra dice.if you roll a 1, you miss and you gun is broken(-4 to hit)
If you attack without clearing the gun, and you roll a 1 again, the gun is destroyed.
No extra rolling, quick, smooth, not even very dangerous misfire rules.
And i never said that you have to roll to conferm the misfire. But unless you misfire twice without clearing your gun, it isn't going to blow up and destory itself. that is important because cartigan was claiming that the gun was going to blow up more often than it crit, which is wrong.
Broken status means that weapon is effectively out of the because clearing a broken firearm is at least a standard action.
That means that the lightning reload + signature reload method of getting full attacks is self-defeating because you are going to "break" you pistol a pretty significant percentage of the time when you are doing 3-4 attacks per round.
This means that you are then relying on the quickdraw feat to cycle through 3+ pistols a round which quite frankly is pretty stupid mechanics and ends up making it so that you can never afford to enchant pistols.
The simple fact of the matter is that the current mechanics simply don't work with the full attack paradigm.
You don't roll any extra dice.
if you roll a 1, you miss and you gun is broken(-4 to hit)
If you attack without clearing the gun, and you roll a 1 again, the gun is destroyed.
No extra rolling, quick, smooth, not even very dangerous misfire rules.
And i never said that you have to roll to conferm the misfire. But unless you misfire twice without clearing your gun, it isn't going to blow up and destory itself. that is important because cartigan was claiming that the gun was going to blow up more often than it crit, which is wrong.
Incorrect.
When a firearm misfires, you miss the target and the firearm gains the broken condition. A broken firearm’s misfire value increases by 4. If a firearm with the broken condition misfires again, it explodes. When a firearm explodes, the weapon is destroyed. Pick one corner of your square—the explosion creates a burst from that point of origin. Each firearm has a burst size noted in parentheses after its misfire value. Anyone within this burst (including the firearm’s wielder) takes damage as if he had been shot by the weapon—a DC 12 Reflex save halves this damage.
So 5% chance to gain broken condition. Then 25% chance if used again to explode on you.
That's a pistol. A rifle is 10% and 30%. A rifle looks very likely to blow up before confirming a crit.Also, you are incorrect on what happens with a broken weapon:
If the item is a weapon, any attacks made with the item suffer a –2 penalty on attack and damage rolls. Such weapons only score a critical hit on a natural 20 and only deal ×2 damage on a confirmed critical hit.
Honestly.. 1 in 20 shots with a pistol means you'll be dealing -2 damage, -2 to attack, and the crit goes down to only 20/x2?
Oh, and for the average person to fix this misfired gun?
Non-magical items can be repaired in a similar fashion, or through the Craft skill used to create it. Generally speaking, this requires a DC 20 Craft check and 1 hour of work per point of damage to be repaired. Most craftsmen charge one-tenth the item's total cost to repair such damage (more if the item is badly damaged or ruined).
Wait.. what? It has the broken condition without any damage? So how does the non-gunslinger fix their weapon anyways? There's no real clear rules on this.
Wheeee....
I still think that at level one, the misfire mechanic is pretty harsh. Remember, that's 100 gold you have to spend to make your weapon work again (150 for the rifle) and remove the Broken condition. At level 1 that is steep. It may be thematic (I am an avid reader of anything Warhammer related so I hear you Zombie), but mechanics-wise I think its punishing the gunslinger just for simple bad luck. It works in the novels and movies, but when one is playing at such a low level and it happens, it seems unfair. A weapon breaking is more acceptable if it is sundered or even if you don't take care of it (if the GM is playing by those rules), but for a weapon to break because of chance isn't fun for alot of people.
I think that having a Jamming condition instead would be a good compromise between fun game mechanics and the theme of "unreliable technology". You still have your weapon in one piece when you fix it, but it will force you to take time in combat to unjam the weapon. It feels less like a punishment and more "flavourful". See my previous post Zombie and tell me your opinion.
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Thanks to those who used this post to share neat ideas on their gunslinger plans. Boo to those who hijacked this post to rant about mechanics. Not the point of the post at all. I am looking for the creative ways people are going to make the gunslinger part of the Pathfinder world.
I think I am going to run with the concept of an Arabian styled pimp of sorts. Fine silk clothing, large brim hat, leopard print jacket, a canesword and a gun. He runs one of the local brothels in a major city and has to keep his herim in line and the customers under control. That takes a bit more than a fine sword to do.
No, the narrative of black power guns is "lol, they fell into the water and now when they tried to shoot the guy, all their guns just clicked." I can't think of a single pop-culture movie or book (you know, the source of "narrative" reasons) where a black powder weapon explodes.
Of cause they did, but it isn't part of the narrative of bows in the same way.Well duh.
Who would try to shoot with a broken gun?
Doing that is just begging for bad things to happen. If anything, if they do change that mechanic, they should have a range of things to happen. Like maybe you can just break it further, it explodes..
Or maybe you shoot yourself in the foot.
Cartigan!
Foot shooting.
Also.
Tell me, I implore. Why are you shooting a broken gun?
Because Martial Classes need to enchant their weapons to contribute against level appropriate foes, and he can only afford to enchant one gun while maintaining all the other stuff he needs. If he repairs the broken gun (which Kaisoku explained the rules are very vague on) at BEST he's not contributing for a whole round, which means people are dying.No, the narrative of black power guns is "lol, they fell into the water and now when they tried to shoot the guy, all their guns just clicked." I can't think of a single pop-culture movie or book (you know, the source of "narrative" reasons) where a black powder weapon explodes.
Of cause they did, but it isn't part of the narrative of bows in the same way.Well duh.
Who would try to shoot with a broken gun?
Doing that is just begging for bad things to happen. If anything, if they do change that mechanic, they should have a range of things to happen. Like maybe you can just break it further, it explodes..
Or maybe you shoot yourself in the foot.
Cartigan!
Foot shooting.
Also.
Tell me, I implore. Why are you shooting a broken gun?
Considering both of these weapons are NEW experimental advances of technology. Perhaps Paizo should scrape the idea entirely.
New things. Brand new things. They break when you screw something up.
If one only has the willingness to enchant one gun. Perhaps they should invest in Steadfast upon their one gun. Great for musket. Perhaps a small bit of a waste for two pistols though. Quite the expenditure of gold you might say.
Though. If you are willing to use new technology that hasn't been perfected, you should expect issues like this.
More power doesn't come without consequence. Personally I find this consequence interesting. And how hard is it for one to have a crossbow on hand? Or, just another +1 pistol as -backup-. If you say that at early levels you can't afford that, then get a crossbow.
If that doesn't fit your image. Suck it up, and get a crossbow, or use the pistol.
Hmm. Both because of the art and my interests elsewhere, I thought of the Arcane Tempest Gun Mages from Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms setting. The art specifically reminds me of Ryan from the Black 13th. Maybe because "gunslinger" is a special characteristic of some pistol-wielders in Warmachine who can fire at melee range without suffering a free strike.
Steadfast is a +4 enchantment!
That means you typically don't have one until +5 weapons start showing up around 15th level.
So you have a single pistol+1 of steadfast at 15th level. While the rest of the party is running around with +5 weapons or equivalents. Hell he doesn't even have the money to enchant two of them to be able to use TWF.
That doesn't create some warning signs? That a gunslinger only becomes marginally competent by the time he's 15th level? Pretty much after most groups have already rebooted their campaigns.
I'm sorry for a new class that's simply not going to work. Nobody in their right mind is going to delay satisfaction on a martial class that late especially when the 15th level full casters are starting to really get completely awesome.
No just No. The fundamental concept of the gunslinger has potential but the current iteration is absolutely not able to simulate interesting thematics while being a viable class.
First,
I think what everyone is arguing about is not the firearms themselves, but where in the development process of this “new technology” the Pathfinder developers have inserted it into the rule set. If it was firearms like those of the “peacemaker” or Winchester lever action rifle, no one would be too sad. But the point is it’s new technology, use it or don’t, it’s your choice. Even bows and crossbows went through such a developmental stage until they were perfected.
As was said, firearms are “written” in stone. So, use your own creativity to find ways around the problems. Isn’t that one of the BIG and FUN points of RPG’s, to find ways to overcome the problems within the game?
Second,
Firearms are doing x4 on a critical hit. Firearms ignore armor and natural armor at close range. Firearms have a grit mechanic that is not available to other weapons. I think the misfire rules are fair. I also think the misfire adds to the wonder of the weapon. Firearms are a new experimental and volatile technology. Wow, good job pathfinder. Love what you are doing with firearms and the gunslinger.
I agree. Again, don’t like it, don’t use it, or house rule things to make changes.
Third, back to the OP,
Thanks to those who used this post to share neat ideas on their gunslinger plans… I am looking for the creative ways people are going to make the gunslinger part of the Pathfinder world.I think I am going to run with the concept of an Arabian styled pimp of sorts. Fine silk clothing, large brim hat, leopard print jacket, a canesword and a gun. He runs one of the local brothels in a major city and has to keep his harem in line and the customers under control. That takes a bit more than a fine sword to do.
One thing I missed in 3.5 from 2E (which PF is trying to reinstate) was the need to be innovative and creative to really make the game enjoyable. Not everything should be done or spelled out for you. Figure things out yourself. Thus, I like the gunslinger idea.
Also, like some of the other posters, I was thinking of something else too. I look back at a great character a friend of mine made in 2E, who went through a 3E incarnation, and could be resurrected as something better with the gunslinger class.
Here’s the concept: an assassin that uses a rifle firearm to shoot his victims from afar, but uses swords in close combat.
The character my friend created was a LE drow assassin. He used a musket to shoot his marks, and two longswords in melee battle. To overcome some of the problems of the musket, we did the following with magic:
1)permanent silence on the musket, no sound, always a surprise attack
2)used distance ranged weapon special ability
3)created a magical sight (using scrying) or something like that
4)magically enhanced/developed the firearm to advance its technology (via an artificer)
5)use a permanent make whole spell to fix the misfires immediately when they happen
6)also used a contingency/minor or major creation spell to magically and automatically reload the firearm once it’s been shot
7)adamantine barrel, iron wood stock, etc.
Like I said, be creative. Here’s a reality check – It is only just a game, so make it fun again.
I’ll have to look through all the magical and spell options from Core, APG, and what comes with the Ultimate series, to see what I can do with the character now. Remember too, this is a play test, everything available in the books aren’t available to us in the playtest.
So basically the best gunslinger is a wizard.
Uhhhhhhhhhhh
As was said, firearms are “written” in stone. So, use your own creativity to find ways around the problems. Isn’t that one of the BIG and FUN points of RPG’s, to find ways to overcome the problems within the game?
Give an example.
If you mean a house rule then I have to disagree wholly. If the community has to houserule something to make it work then it should be fixed before the book hits the shelves.
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+1 to Cartigan on this one.
Guns, as presented, are a phenomenal waste that contribute very little to the game.
No other weapon in the game auto-destroys itself. This alone makes misfire badwrong. In another thread, there was the notion of misfire only applying to those non-proficient with firearms. This is a good thing, since it keeps guns somewhat unique. If the ill-advised 'targets Touch AC' mechanic is kept, than peasants will still be able to hit things with musket fire even when non-proficient.
Also, I have said it before and I'll say it again: Golarion is not Napoleonics. Tech level is closer to Thirty Years War, with stagnation due to endless murdering, monstering, and magical shortcuts. Drawing on Sharpe and Hornblower misses the damn point, and trying to draw Napoleonic Wars fiction themes into PF is disingenuous at best. Same goes for Wild West themes. They clash with the 'age of swords and high adventure' flavor.
If the rules for guns do not work, than the rules for the gunslinger (I know it will still be called gunslinger in the morning, but it'll take some getting used to the repurposing of a wild west genre label) are irrelevant.
This is sorta sounding like this one guy I kicked out of my gaming group... That tried to put iron kingdom classes and weapons into a 3.5 game campaign. <.<
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Wait.. what? It has the broken condition without any damage? So how does the non-gunslinger fix their weapon anyways? There's no real clear rules on this.Wheeee....
I think they used the broken condition in place of a 'partially jammed' condition for simplicity sake. It could be argued that a partially jammed gun is broken in a very specific way.
I think they used the broken condition in place of a 'partially jammed' condition for simplicity sake. It could be argued that a partially jammed gun is broken in a very specific way.
Wait.. what? It has the broken condition without any damage? So how does the non-gunslinger fix their weapon anyways? There's no real clear rules on this.Wheeee....
It makes way more sense to call it jammed. Though that just makes the absurd pricing of the anti-"broken" enchantments even more ridiculous.
If you don't like it, change it? It's RAW, yes, but isn't it supposed to be OUR game?
Anyway, enjoy.
If you don't like it, change it? It's RAW, yes, but isn't it supposed to be OUR game?
Anyway, enjoy.
My primary issue with the Gunslinger is the hard wired Wild West, Cowboy feel to it. I want pirates with guns and swashbucklers with muskets. But just reading the class it seems almost hard wired to be a Wild West Gunslinger.
Maybe trying a different name would help.
Sharpshooter I like better
Marksman I would be happier with also.
If you want a swashbuckler/pirate character, play a fighter or a rogue that uses a gun. The whole point of a gunslinger is to use his guns. Gunslingers weren't even around until the wild west time period, so trying to have a pirate gunslinger that uses a rapier isn't right.
Give an Inquisitor a gun and TWF feats, and you've got a Witch Hunter from Warhammer Online.
If you don't like it, change it? It's RAW, yes, but isn't it supposed to be OUR game?
Anyway, enjoy.
My primary issue with the Gunslinger is the hard wired Wild West, Cowboy feel to it. I want pirates with guns and swashbucklers with muskets. But just reading the class it seems almost hard wired to be a Wild West Gunslinger.
Maybe trying a different name would help.
Sharpshooter I like better
Marksman I would be happier with also.
So uh.
Make a pirate or swashbuckler with guns?
I mean just because the crossbow fighter has the crossbow doesn't mean nobody else can use it.
Most of the Classes are wired Western Myth....
But anyway, I have this picture of Gnomish Gun Slinging tinkers, or Orcish Mercenary Riflemen...
I love the Idea of the Gunslinger being an Artillery Piece wrecking havoc from a sniper position.
Eric
My 2 cents.
I'll agree that the term "Gunslinger" feels a bit wild west, and that "Sharpshooter" or "Gunner" are better fits.
With the rules as is, the class can be used to create mounted Dragoons and swashbuckling pirates with ease in addition to the cowboy. If the gunner feats were applied to a ranger (or made a weapon style), a frontiersman could be rolled up easily aswell.
As to repairing an object (such as a misfired gun); Craft skill or Mending.
The hinderence of a misfired gun for a gunslinger is the need to fall back on a secondary weapon or risk explosion. Seeing how the gunslinger has all martial prof (which I don't agree with, but that's another thread), he shouldn't have a problem with that.
I'm unsure that I would use a gunslinger for this (as opposed to a gun wielding ranger), but by golly, there are beartraps listed in the APG. Daniel Boone as a dwarf, anyone?
This actually has me fairly excited. And I'm not sure why.
I removed some posts. Don't post angry (and don't reply to the folks who do post angry.)