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For those of you unfamiliar with the YuenglingDragon Arenas of Various and Sundry Dooms(TM), this is how it goes. I make a PC and run it through the Arena fighting one randomly determined monster per round. Between fights he may drink a potion of CLW of which he has 5 and even be healed by Clarice the Sideline Cleric who will give him 2 CLW and 1 CMW.
In this Arena, the Gunslinger's pistols will be assumed to be reloaded between fights.
Human Gunslinger 5 “Roland”
Str 10
Dex 20 (17+2 racial+1 level)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats
1 Quick Draw
1b Rapid Reload
3 Point Blank Shot
4b Weapon Specialization (Pistol)
5 Weapon Finesse
Deeds
1 Quick Clear
3 Gunslinger Initiative
Gear (10,500)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2,100)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
MW Bayonet (305)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Ioun Torch (75)
Miscellaneous Adventuring Gear
Init +7
AC 20
Touch 15
Flatfooted 15
Fort 5
Ref 10
Will 4 (5 vs. Fear)
Pistol
+12/+7 d8+8
+13/+8 d8+9 within 30’
Bayonet
+12/+7 d6+1
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CR 3 – Wight
Wight wins Initiative. Roland is angry as he’s worked very hard on a nice initiative score. Moves forward 30’ and attacks but misses (14).
Roland takes a 5’ step back and shoots with one pistol (20), drops it, and quick draws the other shooting with it as well (3). Crit confirms (10) and that Wight is screwed. Crit deals 12+36=48 and the other shot deals 13 damage.
Interestingly, if I hadn’t rolled a crit, I would have been 2 damage short of killing the Wight but the Wight would still not have hit in the second round.
Edit: Did I do that right with dropping and quick drawing the pistols? Seems like it should be legal.
Hm. Was going to say there`s no reason you can`t wield both pistols, so why drop it.
Then I realized, you`re probably doing that because you don`t want to 2WF since you don`t have the 2WF Feat, and you can`t normally switch weapons between each iterative attack.
I think what you did is legit, essentially drawing a new weapon to use with the same hand, as opposed to switching to another available attack like sword to shield to armor spike, for example. Throwing daggers with Quickdraw is pretty equivalent, right?
But this just points out how silly the rules are then...
Apparently, with confirmation from Shield Fighter variant (which specially allows it), you can´t normally use other weapons for 2dary /3ary iteratives. But if with Quickdraw you can draw a new weapon and use it in the same hand for 2ndary/3ary iteratives (like Quickdraw explicitly works for throwing daggers), why in the hell can´t you use a weapon ALREADY available to you to make those attacks? What is so powerful about that (given these are all 2ndary/3ary attacks) that it needs special Class Abilities to allow?
Anyhow, since you have Quickdraw I don´t see anything against what you did per RAW, though AFAIK you couldn´t use a 2nd gun that you ALREADY had in another hand to make the 2ndary iterative (at -5), you could only attack with a 2nd gun if you used 2WF. Then again, if you are not using 2WF, there isn´t any ´handedness´ in the game, so maybe you could just make another attack... though that conflicts with the intersplicing shield and other attacks info... MEH, I don´t really get the RAW here, but it would it would fly in any of my games :-)
2WF still seems useful though... You´re getting 2x the shots in first round for only -2, if re-loadng is too slow you don´t have to 2WF after the 1st round. and since apparently revolvers WILL show up, besides other reloading tricks, it seems MORE than viable.
with TWF he can make three attacks with his second iterative, his way only uses iteratives. So yeah it is totally legal
I see nothing in the rules saying that you cant attack with guns if you start wielding two one in each hand attack attack drop quickdraw two more attack attack.
Full Attack
If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks. You do not need to specify the targets of your attacks ahead of time. You can see how the earlier attacks turn out before assigning the later ones.
The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.
If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
The way I see it is You can use the two weapon fighting option to get an additional attack or you can hold two weapons for the purpose of getting multiple attacks with enough BAB. And the rules state you can take free and swift actions during full round actions so nothing prevents you from attack drop quick draw and repeat till your out of attacks. tho carrying that many loaded guns on your person could get dangerous, but this is fantasy.
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TWF might have some value but there's no point to it if I can just draw the second pistol for iteratives. Fulfills the same function seemingly. Now assuming that a revolver or something comes along then probably at level 9 when Gun Training kicks in for a second weapon then maybe start dual wielding that multi-chambered weapon. And of course you can make it a free action all day long at level 11. Until then it doesn't seem worth a feat.
I made some errors up top. I got it into my head that Gunslingers qualified for Fighter feats which they do not. Weapon Specialization has been switched out. I also neglected to include hp. The below stats reflect the corrected PC.
Human Gunslinger 5 “Roland”
Str 10
Dex 20 (17+2 racial+1 level)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats
1 Quick Draw
1b Rapid Reload
3 Point Blank Shot
4b Lighting Reload Deed (Grit)
5 Weapon Finesse
Deeds
1 Quick Clear
3 Gunslinger Initiative
Gear (10,500)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2,100)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
MW Bayonet (305)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Ioun Torch (75)
Miscellaneous Adventuring Gear
Init +7
AC 20
Touch 15
Flatfooted 15
Grit 2
49hp
Fort 5
Ref 10
Will 4 (5 vs Fear)
Pistol
+12/+7 d8+6
+13/+8 d8+7 within 30’
Bayonet
+12/+7 d6+1
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CR 4 – Phycomid (Bestiary 2)
Roland wins initiative. Moves away 10’ and shoots once (3) and misses.
Phycomid moves forward 10’ and fires an acid pellet (2) but misses as well. Ah ha!
Roland reloads and shoots again (4) missing again because of the range increment penalty. Takes a 5’ step back.
Phycomid moves forward 10’ and an acid pellet hits with a natural 20! Low rolls keep damage to only 6 (43 remains).
Roland decides to just let loose and takes a 5’ step forwards and fires once (18), uses Lightning Reload and fires again (16). Both are hits dealing 13 and 9 damage (17 remains).
Phycomid moves forward 10’ and fires another acid pellet despite finally getting within its 10’ range increment it still misses (9).
Roland reloads his pistol and shoots again, hits (11), dealing 13 damage (4 remains).
Phycomid shoots an acid pellet and hits (17) dealing 11 damage (32 remains)!
Roland reloads and hits again (6) dealing 14 damage and killing the bastard plant.
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Down a distressing number of HP, Roland accepts his only CMW for 16 hp bringing his total to 48.
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I'm not sure how to feel about the Gunslinger. Pistols are the only way to, at early levels at least, take part in every round of combat but the range is so low that you might as well be duking it out in melee for all the good your ranged weapon does ya. Unless your buddies can really keep all the enemies pinned you're gonna get someone right up on you and then you might as well be using a longsword that has a chance to blow up in your damn hand.
I'm posting numbers because devs have asked for them. With those numbers here's some analysis. With the feats that a Gunslinger is sinking into this like Quick Draw, TWF and/or Rapid Reload there isn't much left to improve DPR or AC. The damage just isn't there to convince me that this is a mechanic I want to pursue. Especially given the absolutely ridiculous cost of ammo. The only draw seems to be the flavor, but I don't need to play a gunslinger to play the cowboy flavor. I'm doing it right now with a Magus and having a ball.
Did I miss something...how do you get iterative attacks at lvl 5?
Well... Roland can hope for a lucky Crit 8-P
If he had Stealth and Terrain to use, maybe he could try a Sniping strategy.
To be fair, almost any Fighter is dead meat. Maybe Archer not as much.
Gunslingers do qualify for fighter feats. They're a sub-class of fighter. But when you did have "Roland" have spec, he didn't have focus.
Yeah, you qualify for Feats and stuff that merely have Fighter Level X as requirement,
you don´t qualify for stuff based on Class Features you swapped out.
The obvious benefit of 2WF is multiple attacks for the 5 levels before you get Iteratives, and even then at a higher BAB then the -5 iteratives.
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Yeah, you qualify for Feats and stuff that merely have Fighter Level X as requirement,
you don´t qualify for stuff based on Class Features you swapped out.The obvious benefit of 2WF is multiple attacks for the 5 levels before you get Iteratives, and even then at a higher BAB then the -5 iteratives.
One thing people keep missing in the text is that they specifically say that each gun is single barrel. I'm reading this as you'd have the capability to have double barrels. Double barrel flint lock pistols and rifles weren't non-existant...they were just rare. In a world of fantasy and magic I don't see why double or even triple barrel wouldn't be capable of being used.
This would kind of fix both the reload time (you aren't picking up 3 guns and reloading but rather loading 3 barrels), and also fix the need for carrying as many guns (which are rather heavy for a dump stat).
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Did I miss something...how do you get iterative attacks at lvl 5?
This is what I get for rushing to post. OK, this was supposed to be a Gunslinger 6 playtest. Conceptually it started that way. I thought that would pair up well with a level 11 playtest I wanted to also do. But at some point in the document I paste from I wrote 5 instead of 6 and then based a lot of my numbers on that. I'm reviewing my numbers to see what is wrong and what isn't.
The above bits of the playtest are still valid as a level 6 playtest. He just doesn't have everything he's supposed to. I'll post corrected stats in a minute.
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Human Gunslinger 6 “Roland”
Str 10
Dex 22 (17+2 racial+1 level+2 belt)
Con 14
Int 11
Wis 14
Cha 7
Feats
1 Quick Draw
1b Rapid Reload
3 Point Blank Shot
4b Lighting Reload Deed (Grit)
5 Weapon Finesse
Deeds
1 Quick Clear
3 Gunslinger Initiative
Gear (16,000)
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2,100)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
+1 Pistol (2,300)
MW Bayonet (305)
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
Ioun Torch (75)
Belt of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Scabbard of Vigor (1800)
Miscellaneous Adventuring Gear
Init +8
AC 22
Touch 17
Flatfooted 15\
CMB +6
CMD 23
Grit 2
58hp
Fort 7
Ref 10
Will 5 (7 vs Fear)
Pistol
+14/+9 d8+7
+15/+10 d8+8 within 30’
Bayonet
+13/+8 d6
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CR 3 – Wight
Wight wins Initiative. Roland is angry as he’s worked very hard on a nice initiative score. Moves forward 30’ and attacks but misses (11).
Roland takes a 5’ step back and shoots with one pistol (7), drops it, and quick draws the other shooting with it as well (15). Deals 15 and 10 damage (1 remains)
Wight misses again (17).
Roland takes a 5’ step back, reloads, and shoots (12) hitting and dealing 9 damage. Wight is dead.
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CR 4 – Phycomid (Bestiary 2)
Roland wins initiative. Moves away 10’ and shoots once (8) and hits dealing 15 damage (24 remains).
Phycomid moves forward 10’ and fires an acid pellet (13) hitting for 4 damage (54 remains)
Roland reloads and shoots again (6) and hits for 11 damage (13 remains). Takes a 5’ step back.
Phycomid moves forward 10’ and an acid pellet hits (18) dealing 5 damage (49 remains).
Roland decides to just let loose and takes a 5’ step forwards and fires once (18), uses Lightning Reload and fires again (4). Both are hits dealing 13 and 9 damage killing the plant and bringing his grit back up to 2.
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Roland accepts a CLW from the sideline cleric for 11 hp bringing his total to 58.
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OK so the first attempt actually was not terribly valid as it turns out nearly all my numbers were wrong. Very embarrassing. I've redone everything and updated it. I think it's all correct now.
The difficulty with the whole three barrels (or six shooters) thing is it wont really speed up reload time. just make it take longer until you have to reload.
Because the rules are giving us separate gun powder and bullets to buy, we know we are dealing with loading, powder, patch, ball, then ramrod, then primer.
This would have to be done for each and every weapon, or barrel or chamber.
Wild Bill Hickock carried 1861 colt navys. they did not have cartidges (which didnt exist until 1871-72 with most weapons and the peacemaker came out in 1873)
So even Wild Bill loaded power, patch, ball, primer for each cylinder of his revolver. the weapons came with a lever on the barrel that pulled down and acted as the ram rod.
this was quite a process. Which is why he carried TWO, and often a third hold out (much smaller and concealed)
Thats 12 shots (or really only ten because they left an empty chamber as a safety back then.)
But in REAL life, 10 shots are usually enough, heck if you cant kill one or two guys with that many shots, you're dead yourself anyway.
sustained gun fire almost never happened in real life, until modern weapons and warfare (with people doing alot more missing)
So we have a conundrum, this isnt real life, its fantasy, and our gunslinger WILL have plenty of sustained gunfire. Problem is the real world technology its modeled after isnt up to the task.
That is to say without SOME kind of magic.
In the movie "The outlaw Josie Wales" which takes place after the end of the american civil war (right after) you see clint's character josie do something int he final gun fight, that wasn't altogether rare.
Someone has already mentioned this:
The model weapon josie is carrying is a remmington version of the colt navy (I dont remember specifically which one) and it had a unique feature that the colt didnt. Not only did the lever (as mentioned above) pull down to act as the ram rod, but it could go further, pulling the entire cylinder out of the frame. Josie then reached into his pocket to pull out another, preloaded cylinder, placed in the frame where he took the expended cylinder, locked the lever back in place and ready to fire all over again.
The reason Josie did this little maneuver was because he also had powder/ball technology as the self contained cartridge hadnt become popular yet. (even in the 1880s, with the 73 peacemaker on the market and the 75 remmington which was just like it, there was still alot of powder/ball revolvers out there, because well, new guns were expensive!)
So i think having this technology in the game is what is going to "save" the gunslinger concept, for pathfinder, and that is to say, black powder revolvers with removable, preloaded cylinders and cap primer.
(referred to as cap and ball pistols)
Now that totally bypasses pirates tho who never used those guns.
And mishmoshes western with fantasy that alot of people dont want, but will accept the flint lock weapons....
The only way to do this with the flint lock single shots or double barrels, is to have 6-8 pistols, have them tied in pairs around ones neck (so they arent just dropped all over the battle field and available for reload) and then when expended, you have choice but to spend a few rounds doing nothing but reloading, or finish targets off with rest of the party in melee.
with the alchemist gunner that ive suggested you would still at least have bombs as well.
also i can't really see this working as a fighter type without the fighter access to feats (or at least a lot more of them).
This character class is going to be a feat hungry snob, and the feats are just not available to him. he will need to be good somehow with a melee back up weapon, and just a full BAB isnt going to help alot.
Take a movie like "the Patriot, Last of the mohicans, or glory" to name a few that have this style weaponry.
Melee is still a big part of their fights. Part of the reason bayonets were invented was "what the heck do i do now"?
What we are looking at in movies and history is simply, fighters that carry guns. not a specialized class, just fighters or rangers with firearms, and the proficiency with them.
The specialization comes in with the western gunfighter (there really isnt another comparison because the musketeer was more swordsman the gunfighter)
but then we are back to six shooters and not having sustained gun fire past a few combat rounds.
Even in those westerns that dont do the hollywood gun thing of endless ammo, you see extended periods of time where they are dodging in and out of buildings etc to escape enemy gun fire to find a place to hide, and reload.
All good fun. when everyone is fighting with guns.
No so much when spell casters and meleeists and trying to eat you for breakfast.
If the developers are trying to go for more of a "musketeer" then there needs to be more feats available, so the guy can get good with a cutlass/rapier, some more deeds to reflect that hes a switch hitter, and a flair in that direction, and a natural inclination for this class to flow into the prestige duelist, which would work both for his pistol and his rapier or shortsword.
I could really see the pirate/musketeer working in that sense as a fighter alternate class that could easily go into duelist if it so chose.
Back to just the sole gunfighting specialist. He's still going to have to reload sometime. which takes him out of the fight, at least for a while. At low levels, dual wielding revolvers is gonna be silly, after 10-12 shots spin em around and use em as clubs boyo! your not going to get to reload until this gig is over.
Pistol whip, stupid. grit that there barely isnt any of, to replace feats like improvised weapon master , catch off guard etc, feats a fighter would have if you didnt take away all his feats.
Grit isnt worth loosing feats when the feats are better, can be done sooner, and leave more flexibility to the class.
Im not saying Grit is a bad mechanic, if you want to introduce it, make it a feat chain that anyone has access to, and possibly an auto feat for the gunslinger. (so gunslingers get grit as a bonus feat and no 'open feat' at level one.
I still think the alchemy gunner is going to work better for this, but again might be a primo prestige class.
But if your stuck on fighter then it needs to be a fighter, which by definition means feats, choices, flexibility.
You should be able to do this simply be replacing the other fighter abilities like armor training and gun training, and bravery.
Which makes gunslinger an archetype, which is really what it should be.
(unless your making an alchemy gunner).
IF you need to balance the character class out, take away medium armor (can always get it with a feat, if someone wants) the class has lost the fighter ability to move and lessen skill checks in heavier armor, yet it's suppose to dodge jump and be daring? (right now all i see is heavy laden gun types like in league of extraodrinary gentlemen)
If they can't be mobile in medium armor, just drop it.
Drop all martial weapons too, Give all simple, something like rouge (rapier, shortsword, scimitar.... like that) and make them proficient with pistol whipping and butt strokes, and bayonets at level one, right from the get go. saving a pistol whip for level 3 and only if you spend grit is silly.
This will give you a swashbuckler single shot pistol guy, a musketeer or even a half way decent gunfighter that can still be a switch hitter.
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The difficulty with the whole three barrels (or six shooters) thing is it wont really speed up reload time. just make it take longer until you have to reload.
Because the rules are giving us separate gun powder and bullets to buy, we know we are dealing with loading, powder, patch, ball, then ramrod, then primer.
This would have to be done for each and every weapon, or barrel or chamber.Wild Bill Hickock carried 1861 colt navys. they did not have cartidges (which didnt exist until 1871-72 with most weapons and the peacemaker came out in 1873)
So even Wild Bill loaded power, patch, ball, primer for each cylinder of his revolver. the weapons came with a lever on the barrel that pulled down and acted as the ram rod.
this was quite a process. Which is why he carried TWO, and often a third hold out (much smaller and concealed)
Thats 12 shots (or really only ten because they left an empty chamber as a safety back then.)
But in REAL life, 10 shots are usually enough, heck if you cant kill one or two guys with that many shots, you're dead yourself anyway.
sustained gun fire almost never happened in real life, until modern weapons and warfare (with people doing alot more missing)So we have a conundrum, this isnt real life, its fantasy, and our gunslinger WILL have plenty of sustained gunfire. Problem is the real world technology its modeled after isnt up to the task.
That is to say without SOME kind of magic.In the movie "The outlaw Josie Wales" which takes place after the end of the american civil war (right after) you see clint's character josie do something int he final gun fight, that wasn't altogether rare.
Someone has already mentioned this:
The model weapon josie is carrying is a remmington version of the colt navy (I dont remember specifically which one) and it had a unique feature that the colt didnt. Not only did the lever (as mentioned above) pull down to act as the ram rod, but it could go further, pulling the entire cylinder out of the frame. Josie then reached into his...
My suggestion was just a circumvent to having to reload 8 pistols...this way you would reload 2 which saves you from having to pick up 8 pistols off the ground and help with encumbrance which will be a problem when you look at Str being less of a priority.
I'm "personally" sticking to my theory that the Gunslinger should function like an Alchemist in that you can make alteration and adaptations to your firearms like an Alchemist makes changes to his bombs. Instead of being Alchemy driven it would be Engineering driven. But there would be the problem of what if someone stole that gun or something and it had all these sweet alterations to barrel and chamber and sight that changed the range, power, or accuracy?
But enough sidetracking his playtest.
You keep battling one on one so we aren't getting to see how reloading and defense works for the Gunslinger. Can you maybe do a small horde of Kobolds or something so I can see how the AC works and reloading/melee works in combat for the Gunslinger? Because you'd have to invest in Weapon Finesse I'd think.
Another side note: Just based on your Str rating you are carrying a medium capacity just with the Chain shirt, 2 pistols and a musket with bayonet. So, depending on your "Adventuring gear" and ammunition you may be looking at a heavy capacity...
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YuenglingDragon, I'm not sure why your listing specific deeds. You get all of them up to your level.
Nice wall of text attack there Pendagast. I know I'm not worrying about how firearms actually worked, since we aren't playtesting those rules.
Consider however this as character and why i think Gunslinger need a major buff.
HP 61 (6d10+24: 10+5.5*5+24)
F/R/W: +9/+8/+3
AC: 23 (7 armour, 4 dex, 1 deflection, 1 natural)
Pistol: +14 (2d8+8, crit 4d8+32)
vital srike, point blank shot, and deadly aim included
MW Longsword: +8 (2d8+1)
vital strike included
Str: 13 Dex: 20 Con: 16 Int: 8 Wis: 10 Cha: 7
Gear (16k):
+2 Pistol (9300g), +1 Agile Breatplate (1550g), +1 Ring of Protection (2000), +1 Cloak of Resistance (1000), +1 Amulet of Natural Armour (2000), MW Longsword (315), Misc Gear (835)
Feats and features:
1 Rapid Reload (pistol)
1h EWP: Firearms
1f Point Blank Shot
2f Presice Shot
3 Deadly Aim
4f Weapon Focus (pistol)
5 Weapon Spec (pistol)
6f Vital Strike
Armor training 1, Weapon training (firearms), Bravery +2
Skills:
+7 Intimidate, +9 Survival
I much prefer my build.
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You keep battling one on one so we aren't getting to see how reloading and defense works for the Gunslinger. Can you maybe do a small horde of Kobolds or something so I can see how the AC works and reloading/melee works in combat for the Gunslinger? Because you'd have to invest in Weapon Finesse I'd think.
You'll get an idea of how reloading and AoO's work against the Large Elemental coming up soon. I did invest in Finesse for him, though. Against the elemental the DR 5/- is going to stop the bayonet from being very handy, though.
Mr. Trent, I guess you're right about Deeds. The way it was presented on the Table made it seem like you had to choose but I see why I was wrong.
Vital Strike looks good and something I'll have to see about fitting in. I don't know why you picked Deadly Aim,though. You can't use it for touch attacks. Is it just for maximizing the damage when you're outside of 20'?
Pendagast, while your information about the history of firearms is the most cogent posting I've ever seen from you, I really don't care about the history of guns in this world. What I want is cool guns to play with in Golarion. I don't care if they'd be unworkable with real world physics or engineering. I want them to be cool and address the game mechanics which are currently lacking.
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CR 5 – Large Lightning Elemental (Bestiary 2)
[Note: I have the option here of running flyby attacks every turn or attacking up close. Since Roland’s readied attacks to shoot the flying elemental will hit 95% of the time, better than the Elemental, and the fact that B2 describes these monsters are suicidally aggressive, I’ve opted for the latter approach.]
Lightning Elemental wins initiative. Moves forward 30’ and attacks (14) for a hit. Deals 6 damage (52 remain).
Roland fires once (5) and hits, drops the gun and fires with his second pistol (9) hitting again. Deals 10 and 5 damage after damage reduction (45 remains). AoO hits (17) dealing 8 damage (44 remains).
The Lightning Elemental full attacks (4,4) missing twice.
Roland reloads. AoO is another 4 missing. Roland shoots defensively and misses (3).
Lightning Elemental full attacks again (12,17) two hits negating the value of fighting defensively entirely. Is my excitement contagious? ‘Cause I’m excited. The hits deal 9 and 14 damage (21 remains).
Roland reloads. AoO hits, of course. 9 more damage is dealt (12 remains). Roland shoots (2), hits and deals 10 damage (35 remains).
Lightning Elemental full attacks (20,12) and the crit confirms (10). I won’t bother rolling damage and assume Roland dies here. Good luck getting to the Dark Tower now, jackwagon!
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So here's the nasty problem with the Gunslinger. When he gets stuck next to a bad guy the AoO's suck. Plus, he's got a hard time doing much damage past the DR.
A bit more speed for the bonus feats might be nice. Is 3,6,9, etc too fast? 3,7,11? There also really needs to be a deed that allows the Gunslinger to reload without provoking. Maybe it could be added to Lightning reload?
Just curious Yuegnling how much ammo and powder is the 10 STR gunslinger carrying. Isn't he at medium load dropping his max dex reflex and AC?
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Just curious Yuegnling how much ammo and powder is the 10 STR gunslinger carrying. Isn't he at medium load dropping his max dex reflex and AC?
Yea I asked that up above. I added his stuff up and he is acting at a medium load, which makes me wonder if he can use Lightning Reload since you can't use it if you are wearing anything heavier than Light Armor.
Just curious Yuegnling how much ammo and powder is the 10 STR gunslinger carrying. Isn't he at medium load dropping his max dex reflex and AC?Yea I asked that up above. I added his stuff up and he is acting at a medium load, which makes me wonder if he can use Lightning Reload since you can't use it if you are wearing anything heavier than Light Armor.
Also his math on the cost of +1 pistols is off: 1300 MW pistol plus 2000 each pistol to make them +1.
To be clear: I want desperately a gunslinger/ pirate class. That means i want to make sure that every nit picky stringent rules thing is absolutely above board when doing the theorycrafting math. To make sure that it plays as it should by RAW not due to handwaiving certain things.
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OK, so I mostly ignore the carry capacity because those rules are dumb as hell. But I will point out that the armor is mithral knocking 12.5lbs off his load. By my calculations he should be carrying a light load.
He gets two free pistols so I simply added the MW cost and enchanting cost to the free weapons. I think most GM's won't have an issue with that. If people really do have an issue with that I'll happily remove the Scabbard of Vigor I got.
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OK, so I mostly ignore the carry capacity because those rules are dumb as hell. But I will point out that the armor is mithral knocking 12.5lbs off his load. By my calculations he should be carrying a light load.
He gets two free pistols so I simply added the MW cost and enchanting cost to the free weapons. I think most GM's won't have an issue with that. If people really do have an issue with that I'll happily remove the Scabbard of Vigor I got.
10 | 33 lbs. or less | 34–66 lbs. | 67–100 lbs.
Those are your numbers. We aren't here to complain and make you look like a fool...we are trying to help the playtest with accuracy.
Chain shirt=12.5
Pistols=8
Ammo=25
Rifle=9
Total=54.5
That isn't including "Adventuring Gear", Black Powder, the Magic Items, and if you want any melee weapons.
Again...we are just pointing this out because it is a small flaw in the system right now. (Keep in mind the ammo is based on weight of sling bullets as reference)
OK, so I mostly ignore the carry capacity because those rules are dumb as hell. But I will point out that the armor is mithral knocking 12.5lbs off his load. By my calculations he should be carrying a light load.
He gets two free pistols so I simply added the MW cost and enchanting cost to the free weapons. I think most GM's won't have an issue with that. If people really do have an issue with that I'll happily remove the Scabbard of Vigor I got.
You may not like them but they are the rules. As the gunslinger dosent start with MW pistols you cannot ignore the base costs. Ignoring these things is to "rose colored glasses" the playtest and therefore not reliable data.
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OK, so I mostly ignore the carry capacity because those rules are dumb as hell. But I will point out that the armor is mithral knocking 12.5lbs off his load. By my calculations he should be carrying a light load.
He gets two free pistols so I simply added the MW cost and enchanting cost to the free weapons. I think most GM's won't have an issue with that. If people really do have an issue with that I'll happily remove the Scabbard of Vigor I got.
You may not like them but they are the rules. As the gunslinger dosent start with MW pistols you cannot ignore the base costs. Ignoring these things is to "rose colored glasses" the playtest and therefore not reliable data.
weight limit: 33
+1 Mithral Chain Shirt (2,100) 10lbs
+1 Pistol (2,300) 4 lb
+1 Pistol (2,300) 4 lb
MW Bayonet (305) 1 lb
Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000) 1 lb
Ioun Torch (75)
Belt of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Scabbard of Vigor (1800) 3 lbs
Miscellaneous Adventuring Gear must be less than 10lbs
See I was reading it like the Bayonet was attached to a rifle not to the pistols...there was my confusion. Specificity.
And you didn't add in 25 pounds of ammunition and the weight of black powder (like 3 pounds).
Even so, without a rife to attach the bayonet to (in which case why have it) he is limted to 10 lbs of shot and powder and nothing else. Which in an arena nothing else is ok but how many shots total can you get from 10(or 11 if you ditch the bayonet) pounds. Dont have my playtest pdf's avaialable. That number is the real cap for how many rounds a gunslinger can stand in the arena.
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Even so, without a rife to attach the bayonet to (in which case why have it) he is limted to 10 lbs of shot and powder and nothing else. Which in an arena nothing else is ok but how many shots total can you get from 10(or 11 if you ditch the bayonet) pounds. Dont have my playtest pdf's avaialable. That number is the real cap for how many rounds a gunslinger can stand in the arena.
The Gunslinger starts with 50 bullets which most people are estimating that they weigh the same amount as sling bullets (the only reference we have) which are 20 bullets for 10 lbs.
PS-A dagger weighs 4 lbs. so a 1 lb. bayonet is being nice.
Even so, without a rife to attach the bayonet to (in which case why have it) he is limted to 10 lbs of shot and powder and nothing else. Which in an arena nothing else is ok but how many shots total can you get from 10(or 11 if you ditch the bayonet) pounds. Dont have my playtest pdf's avaialable. That number is the real cap for how many rounds a gunslinger can stand in the arena.The Gunslinger starts with 50 bullets which most people are estimating that they weigh the same amount as sling bullets (the only reference we have) which are 20 bullets for 10 lbs.
PS-A dagger weighs 4 lbs. so a 1 lb. bayonet is being nice.
So 16 shots (8 lbs) and 2 lbs of powder? To be at weight? Or does powder have "negligable weight?" If so we really, really need rules for cask bombs.
The carrying rules may be 'annoying' but if this is to be treated as a good playtest the medium load needs to be taken into account. Carrying capacity is often a reason why dex based characters stillcan't afford to completely dump strength. Give your gunslinger a masterwork backpack for 50GP.
That does give him another 5 lbs to play with so could be 10 extra shots or a light melee weapon, not a bad option at all.
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OK, so when I clicked on Bayonet at PFSRD I didn't see anything that limited it to rifles. I just saw that it was 2-handed. Dumb. But whatever. Call it a dagger.
That weight value for bullets is ridiculous. We're talking about a 1/2" ball. A cubic inch of lead weighs .4lbs. That means each ball weighs less than .2lbs. So you should get 5 per pound minimum or 25 for 5lbs.
I dunno, look, above you can see a Gunslinger fight a guy. Ta da!
OK, so when I clicked on Bayonet at PFSRD I didn't see anything that limited it to rifles. I just saw that it was 2-handed. Dumb. But whatever. Call it a dagger.
That weight value for bullets is ridiculous. We're talking about a 1/2" ball. A cubic inch of lead weighs .4lbs. That means each ball weighs less than .2lbs. So you should get 5 per pound minimum or 25 for 5lbs.
I dunno, look, above you can see a Gunslinger fight a guy. Ta da!
No I see a bunch of hand waiving rules to make it appear like a gunslinger is fighting a guy. In some groups that will be good enough in some making those assumptions will lead to frustration on the players part and could lead to game derailing arguments. better to get those out and done now rather than let it make its way into print and be erratted.
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No I see a bunch of hand waiving rules to make it appear like a gunslinger is fighting a guy. In some groups that will be good enough in some making those assumptions will lead to frustration on the players part and could lead to game derailing arguments. better to get those out and done now rather than let it make its way into print and be erratted.OK, so when I clicked on Bayonet at PFSRD I didn't see anything that limited it to rifles. I just saw that it was 2-handed. Dumb. But whatever. Call it a dagger.
That weight value for bullets is ridiculous. We're talking about a 1/2" ball. A cubic inch of lead weighs .4lbs. That means each ball weighs less than .2lbs. So you should get 5 per pound minimum or 25 for 5lbs.
I dunno, look, above you can see a Gunslinger fight a guy. Ta da!
Agreed. I don't want to feel your effort isn't appreciated Yuengling as I enjoy these threads of yours, but if the playtest isn't pure RAW (or your best guess) then its value is limited.
In my opinion- the 'hitting touch AC at close range rules' are 'dumb as hell' as you say, but if I was running a playtest i'd at least use the rule, even against my preference.
Honestly everyone is making a big hullabaloo over nothing.
In the future, just make these threads specifying the house rules, and what is being ignored etc etc. Causes less confusion.
Also, for reference, in my group encumbrance is ignored unless for the purpose of actually carrying someone.
I play DnD cause it's heroic fantasy, not because it's Fallout on Hardcore mode.
Agreed. I don't want to feel your effort isn't appreciated Yuengling as I enjoy these threads of yours, but if the playtest isn't pure RAW (or your best guess) then its value is limited.
In my opinion- the 'hitting touch AC at close range rules' are 'dumb as hell' as you say, but if I was running a playtest i'd at least use the rule, even against my preference.
Alexander sums up what I am trying to get at very well. I do apologize if I come across as harsh or snarky.
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Alexander sums up what I am trying to get at very well. I do apologize if I come across as harsh or snarky.Agreed. I don't want to feel your effort isn't appreciated Yuengling as I enjoy these threads of yours, but if the playtest isn't pure RAW (or your best guess) then its value is limited.
In my opinion- the 'hitting touch AC at close range rules' are 'dumb as hell' as you say, but if I was running a playtest i'd at least use the rule, even against my preference.
Yea we weren't trying to be d-bags...just trying to make sure the playtest was accurate to the RAW so it can be used to improve upon some areas.
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You guys are missing the point. I hate the rules for encumbrance but I was still at a light encumbrance based on my assumptions of bullet weight. Sling bullets are typically much larger than a pistol's bullets. They should not weigh the same. Lacking RAW to go by, I have made certain assumptions. They are different from yours. Until I hear from a dev, neither of us are right.
Encumbrance is the most ridiculous thing to be worried about in this playtest. Is it something that should be discussed? Yes. Is it something that must be dealt with in actual play? Yes. Is it something that really needs to be worked over the coals in an Arena-style game? No, probably not. This playtest is not representative 99% of games as they are rarely 1 on 1 encounters. Most people have a party of at least one other guy.
All this needs to do is show a few examples of how the class might work in a vacuum. I do my best to keep to RAW (and I still insist I have in regards to encumbrance) but not all of it is particularly useful in this instance.
With that, I'm done. Roland died because he can't reload without getting punched in the face. I think we might have learned something from this. Encumbrance in no way effected the ability to see this problem in action.
Not seeing the forest for the trees people.
With that, I'm done. Roland died because he can't reload without getting punched in the face. I think we might have learned something from this. Encumbrance in no way effected the ability to see this problem in action.
Unless, of course, because of his encumberance effecting his ac and saves he died even earlier. And as you may not have funds to get all of the +1 pistols wihtout redoing your gear you would be loosing damage per (every other) shot.
Inaccurate data is inaccurate data even if it only produces one more round of combat than accurate data.
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Unless, of course, because of his encumberance effecting his ac and saves he died even earlier. And as you may not have funds to get all of the +1 pistols wihtout redoing your gear you would be loosing damage per (every other) shot.
Inaccurate data is inaccurate data even if it only produces one more round of combat than accurate data.
How is he encumbered?!?!?! I've already told you that I think using weight figures for sling bullets is illogical and I've done something different. With a masterwork backpack or without it (since he honestly doesn't need "random adventuring gear") he has plenty of ammo!
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In the movie "The outlaw Josie Wales" which takes place after the end of the american civil war (right after) you see clint's character josie do something int he final gun fight, that wasn't altogether rare.
Someone has already mentioned this:
The model weapon josie is carrying is a remmington version of the colt navy (I dont remember specifically which one) and it had a unique feature that the colt didnt. Not only did the lever (as mentioned above) pull down to act as the ram rod, but it could go further, pulling the entire cylinder out of the frame. Josie then reached into his pocket to pull out another, preloaded cylinder, placed in the frame where he took the expended cylinder, locked the lever back in place and ready to fire all over again.
The reason Josie did this little maneuver was because he also had powder/ball technology as the self contained cartridge hadnt become popular yet. (even in the 1880s, with the 73 peacemaker on the market and the 75 remmington which was just like it, there was still alot of powder/ball revolvers out there, because well, new guns were expensive!)
So i think having this technology in the game is what is going to "save" the gunslinger concept, for pathfinder, and that is to say, black powder revolvers with removable, preloaded cylinders and cap primer.
(referred to as cap and ball pistols)
Mechanically, this would be the equivalent of a Repeating Crossbow. Nothing wrong with that.
Pendagast, while your information about the history of firearms is the most cogent posting I've ever seen from you, I really don't care about the history of guns in this world. What I want is cool guns to play with in Golarion. I don't care if they'd be unworkable with real world physics or engineering. I want them to be cool and address the game mechanics which are currently lacking.
Oh i want them cool too.
I think single shot pistols are 'cool', but i dont think they will work with game mechanics.
The point of the post is, specifically talking about rates of fire and reloading, which is the real issue. (ie keeping the class in the fight along with all his buddies)
REAL world, less of an issue, your 5 damage and 10 damage shots would have killed a normal mortal and the gun fighter would go about his business.
But fighting what we want to fight, you are going to need lots of shots.
and we cant go hiding in caves taking 20 minutes to reload once we've spent our wad.
so either combat for a gunslinger is opening up with gun fire and then going to the sword (ala musketeer) or better guns.
The problem is a reload is what a move action until 11th level? right?
well what i was trying to say is, regardless of if you shot 8 pistols or 2 4 barreled pistols, in order to get all your boom booms back, you will need to spend 8 move actions to do it (or 4 rounds).
with a two gun fighter, at 6th level with rapid shot, your going to burn four charges a turn, so attack for two rounds, reload for 4 rounds? yuck
what i was trying to illustrate is the misconception that revolvers will some how reload faster than individual barrels.
right now the rules have you reloading one shot in a move action. doesn't matter if the gun holds 4 shots or 4 guns hold 1 shot.
so with the cool 'josie wales' type revolver we get the 'reloaded' shots, so then reloading 6 shots would be a move action...
MUCH more workable. (which could be dropped to a free or swift with lightening reload)
it would however take a higher strength for the gunslinger because he'd be carrying around a bunch of preloaded cylinders. unless he had a trench coat that was like an efficient quiver/bagof holding and he could pull this crazy amount of preloaded cylinders from his coat pokcets?
sweet.
Anyway my vote is for 'josie wales' cylinders that can be preloaded.
this way at least the gunslinger is really just spending time between fights reloading all his cylinders and setting up for the next fight (unless the fight goes really really long)
But the gunslinger should be able to go 6 rounds or so with his guns (more if he is higher level and has magical means of carrying cylinders/ammo.)
Vital Strike looks good and something I'll have to see about fitting in. I don't know why you picked Deadly Aim,though. You can't use it for touch attacks. Is it just for maximizing the damage when you're outside of 20'?
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rules on the gun don't state it is a ranged touch attack, it says it resolves against the target's touch AC, the intent is armor piercing, not a ranged touch attack. Deadly aim still works.
and if nothing else it would definitely work at farther ranges.
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Vital Strike looks good and something I'll have to see about fitting in. I don't know why you picked Deadly Aim,though. You can't use it for touch attacks. Is it just for maximizing the damage when you're outside of 20'?
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rules on the gun don't state it is a ranged touch attack, it says it resolves against the target's touch AC, the intent is armor piercing, not a ranged touch attack. Deadly aim still works.
Wrong. Theres a post on one of the topics in the gunslinger playtest forum where a Dev has confirmed deadly aim won't with the firing at touch ac firearm rule.
At greater ranges, its still very good.
rules on the gun don't state it is a ranged touch attack, it says it resolves against the target's touch AC, the intent is armor piercing, not a ranged touch attack. Deadly aim still works.and if nothing else it would definitely work at farther ranges.
I brought this up and was shot down pretty fast on the Gunslinger forum. Apparently a dev said they aren't meant to work together. I find it completely dumb. It's like they don't want us to use guns.
Maybe someone should build a gunslinger as a Crossbowslinger...
At greater ranges, its still very good.
That is just pants-on-head retarded.