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Thus, they wouldn't have to draw a melee weapon if someone closed the distance, they could just hit the target with the butt of the gun. Pistol Whip just gave them ability to knock people prone. Does the wording in Guns Akimbo need to change to allow the ability to work with Pistol Whip?
I guess I mistook Ashiel's gunslinger "Pistol Whip" capacity with yours, sorry about this, my mistake ! Reading it again, I don't see anything that needs to be worded in another way. :)
BTW Maxximilius, what does RD mean in your Pickle Shot deed post?
It's "DR" actually, the translation typo from french to english didn't strike me as it should have. Considering this ability, maybe these weapons should be a bit less powerful but used as the perfect duel weapon : only one shot, less striking than revolvers or weapons with several ammos, but with a better perforation, and an economical use of magical ammunitions. Thinking about it, I think we should mention than DR is still deduced from any additional bullet from Manyshot or Rapid Shot with a Pickle Shot - or even better, only when the gunslinger got these feats from their feats list instead than from a deed that gives them to him. This way, the gunslinger could be the only one, by his special Many/rapidshot deeds to shoot several bullets with a gun that got only one bullet basis while deducing DR only one time. I think it needs a bit of reflexion though.
I like these. The innovations allow some diversity for the gunslinger in his black powder crafting without resorting to magic per se. I also like the deeds. I'd love to see how a gunslinger and alchemist would play off of each other in a party.
Thanks, the Alchemical Powders and Ammunitions where inspired by Pandagast's remarks about how the gunslinger should be an alchemist variant. I'm fan of any build that includes awesome movements and a bit of randomness, but I think magic or alchemy should stay an option depending of equipment. Though, I'm sure these could help people wanting a bit more alchemy in their builds, especially if you can do something fun and good without having to rely on alchemy/wizardry. (Did I mention the possibility to do a flamethrower with Shotgun + Burst fire + Fire Powder ? I know I did, but it's still awesome. 8D)
Edit : I'll reword later my previous post to correct any typo, so it's less to read if anyone looks this way. For now, sleeping, it's 6:45 AM here and I my brain is melting.
To Maxximilius:
I reworked your ideas, so here they are. I hop
e with my rewording I kept exactly what you were wanting them to do and say. A couple a made a few small changes. Let me know what you think.
Deeds
[b[Resolute Shot (Ex):[/b] Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm, she can concentrate all her available attacks during her turn into one single focused shot. The gunslinger must focus all her attacks into a full-attack action against one opponent. The gunslinger can only misfire once per round in this way, and the misfire of an attack roll only affects those that follow it, not those that precede it. Any damage reduction that the target may possess is applied only once, but the damage is calculated as if the gunslinger had made a full-attack action. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this deed.*(Maxximilius)
Hack and Shoot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm as a melee weapon during a full-attack action, she can use her second and fourth attack on each hand to discharge her guns instead of using them as melee weapons. In so doing, the gunslinger uses her normal bonuses to hit and does not provoke any attacks of opportunity. This deed does not grant the gunslinger any additional attacks. The gunslinger must have the Pistol Whip deed to select this deed. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this deed.* (Maxximilius)
Innovation
Alchemical Powder (Ex): The gunslinger can enhance her black powder mixture by adding alchemical components. Each time a gunslinger selects this innovation, she must select one energy type from the following list: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All subsequent attacks made and deeds performed while using the powder deals +1d6 alchemical damage of the energy type the gunslinger has selected. Powders may be combined into one, but the gunslinger must have 1 grit point remaining for each type of alchemical powder she chooses to employ. If the gunslinger is low on grit points, she may select which energy related powder is "active" when reloading her firearm. This alchemical damage is similar to other energy based damage and allows the target to save for half damage. * (Maxximilius)
Alchemical Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger creates shot, she may add alchemical components to the process to infuse them with one of the following energy types.
Activating or deactivating a specific alchemical shot is part of her reloading action. If the gunslinger employs alchemical powders in conjunction with alchemical shot, the alchemical effects stack.
Fire Shot: Fashioned with a phosphorous node at its heart, each shot now explodes on impact, catching the target in a short but intense burst of fire. The gunslinger may shoot any inflammable material to ignite it. Any target hit by fire shot is considered dazzled for 1 round. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is blinded and catches fire for one round, suffering 1d6 fire damage at the beginning of its next turn.
Cold Shot: Fashioned with a heart of concentrated eternal ice, this shot is activated by a deflagration. The gunslinger may target any square on the battlefield, covering it in a 1½ ft. puddle of water that is now considered difficult terrain, except for the purpose of charging. If the gunslinger discharges a second cold shot into the square, or if she confirms a critical hit when doing so the first time, she creates a sheet of frozen water. This ice sheet functions as the grease spell with a caster level equal to his gunslinger level. The gunslinger can also shoot an existing puddle, but there is a 25% chance the freezing effect fails. This chance of failure increases to 50% in any warm terrain and 75% in the extreme heat caused by deserts or volcanoes.
Electricity Shot: Fashioned with a potent natural magnet node at its heart, this shot is instantly attracted to any ferrous based metal, whether armor, weapons, or equipment. Whenever the gunslinger fires an electricity shot at a target wearing metal armor or wielding a metal weapon or shield, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack and damage rolls. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is dazed for 1 round.
Acid Shot: Fashioned with a potent corrosive coating, the acid is activated on contact with moist skin or flesh, like that of a fresh puncture wound. Acid shot ignores 5 points of hardness from objects, and inflicts and additional 1d4 acid damage the subsequent round. Inn addition, any creature pierced with an acid shot is also poisoned. The corrosive poison has the following properties: Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 16; Frequency 1/round for 1 round; Effect 1 Con damage and target is fatigued; Cure 1 save.
The effects from successive acid bullet strikes stack, making the poison within the target’s bloodstream more potent. However, the save is not made for each bullet, but at the beginning of the target’s subsequent turn. Thus, if a target is hit 4 times by a gunslinger’s acid shot in a single combat round would be required to make a save every round for 4 rounds, and lose 1 Con every round until it makes a successful saving throw. * (Maxximilius)
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Well, I guess insomnia is the rolist's best f(r)iend.
I reworked your ideas, so here they are. I hope with my rewording I kept exactly what you were wanting them to do and say. A couple a made a few small changes. Let me know what you think.
Thanks, I couldn't have written it better ! :)
Some issues though :- Resolute shot => as it is written now, you can shoot this way with any firearm. I believe this should be reserved to 1 ammo weapons only, even if by raw it will probably always be the case - so if the official version will not include revolvers/shotguns/rifles, forget what I just said. Plus, should feats like Manyshot and Rapid Shot be included in this "über-bullet" attack ?
- Hack and Shoot => it's exactly what I was thinking. It allows for Gun Kata style, striking close opponent for diversion while using more efficient strikes without the usual risks in-between, or for last resort ranged attacks when blocked on a melee situation, all of this while assuming the malus of having to strike first with a melee attack. Maybe allowing to use all off-hand attacks as gunshots if the first hand does only melee attacks - or the opposite - could be good too. Could be a good tweak to give a better chance to hit with bullets when the "original" I gave offers the best attack bonus to melee strikes. It was intended, but still, it's a possibility.
- Alchemical Powder => Perfect. :)
- Alchemical Shot => Globally, I separated each effect from a part of the ammunition so that flavorwise, they would stack perfectly. I suggest to decompose them in core (fire, phosphorous)-alliage (cold, eternal ice/ironice)-head (electricity, magnetic node)-coating (acid, corrosive). Alchemical Shot should have Alchemical Powder as a prerequisite.
Fire is better, -1 instead of -2 is less OP.
Cold is better too, though I should have added an AC 10 to beat when targeting a particular square.
Electricity, good too, but the Dazed effect for a critical is too much awesome... fighters have to wait a long time to add critical effects not specially game breaking to their attacks, and even then, the victime has a saving throw - when the gunslinger could do this at level 5 or 6. I suggest something funnier and more balanced imho : any critical with an electricity shot charges anything it touches, and so increases the magnetic potential of the victim. Each time someone is touched by a electrical shot critical, the circumstance bonus provided increases by +1, to a maximum of the number of grit points the gunslinger got at the time. So, after one critical hit an enemy without metal gives +1, and one with metal +2, etc.
Acid, I think the bullets should simply give +2 acid damage, ignore 5 hardness points on objects, and omg the poison you have put is waaaaay too much powerful. DD16, really ? 4 hits in a round because level 6 + ITWF, and it's DD24 to beat, when the average fighter got +7/+8 to Fortitude saves, without forgetting that the poison lowers Constitution, and so, Fortitude. DD8 is good enough for a free poison that doesn't allow any save before the victim's turn (when any other poison gives an instant save per application, and so reduces the risks that it accumulates). Wait level 12 and you got 6 attacks per round, even 7 with haste, and it's +14 to the DD if all hit, DD22 is like Dragon bile and a 35% chance to fail for the average fighter. But if he fails... just keep accumulating, and admire the DD36.
Also, something which should please wannabe Gunmages :
Deed, lvl.6 =
Gunmage (Ex) : The gunslinger can reload any firearm with a wand containing a spell with a ranged touch attack. As long as he got at least 2 grit remaining, the gunslinger is considered as having this spell in it's spell list, and can activate it like a wand, using the bonuses he can apply to his firearm to this attack. A magus with the Wand wielder arcane can take this deed without needing any grit, and thus use his gun as part of Spell Combat.
(Mmmh, maybe later a greater Deed to dual-wield gun-wands or put a staff in a rifle ?)
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Don't know why but I can't edit the previous message, well, this is the new one, including the modifications I talked about :
Well, I guess insomnia is the rolist's best f(r)iend.
I reworked your ideas, so here they are. I hope with my rewording I kept exactly what you were wanting them to do and say. A couple a made a few small changes. Let me know what you think.
Thanks, I couldn't have written it better ! :)
Some issues though :- Resolute shot => as it is written now, you can shoot this way with any firearm. I believe this should be reserved to 1 ammo weapons only, even if by raw it will probably always be the case - so if the official version will not include revolvers/shotguns/rifles, forget what I just said. Plus, should feats like Manyshot and Rapid Shot be included in this "über-bullet" attack ?
- Hack and Shoot => it's exactly what I was thinking. It allows for Gun Kata style, striking close opponent for diversion while using more efficient strikes without the usual risks in-between, or for last resort ranged attacks when blocked on a melee situation, all of this while assuming the malus of having to strike first with a melee attack. Maybe allowing to use all off-hand attacks as gunshots if the first hand does only melee attacks - or the opposite - could be good too. Could be a good tweak to give a better chance to hit with bullets when the "original" I gave offers the best attack bonus to melee strikes. It was intended, but still, it's a possibility.
- Alchemical Powder => Almost perfect, but you misinterpretated the part about being able to change zone damages to an element of your choice. :)
- Alchemical Shot => Globally, I separated each effect from a part of the ammunition so that flavorwise, they would stack perfectly. I suggest to decompose them in core (fire, phosphorous)-alliage (cold, eternal ice/ironice)-head (electricity, magnetic node)-coating (acid, corrosive). Alchemical Shot should have Alchemical Powder as a prerequisite.
Fire is better, -1 instead of -2 is less OP.
Cold is better too, though I should have added an AC 10 to beat when targeting a particular square.
Electricity, good too, but the Dazed effect for a critical is too much awesome... fighters have to wait a long time to add critical effects not specially game breaking to their attacks, and even then, the victime has a saving throw - when the gunslinger could do this at level 5 or 6. I suggest something funnier and more balanced imho : any critical with an electricity shot charges anything it touches, and so increases the magnetic potential of the victim. Each time someone is touched by a electrical shot critical, the circumstance bonus provided increases by +1, to a maximum of the number of grit points the gunslinger got at the time. So, after one critical hit an enemy without metal gives +1, and one with metal +2, etc.
Acid, I think the bullets should simply give +2 acid damage, ignore 5 hardness points on objects, and omg the poison you have put is waaaaay too much powerful. DD16, really ? 4 hits in a round because level 6 + ITWF, and it's DD24 to beat, when the average fighter got +7/+8 to Fortitude saves, without forgetting that the poison lowers Constitution, and so, Fortitude. DD8 is good enough for a free poison that doesn't allow any save before the victim's turn (when any other poison gives an instant save per application, and so reduces the risks that it accumulates). Wait level 12 and you got 6 attacks per round, even 7 with haste, and it's +14 to the DD if all hit, DD22 is like Dragon bile and a 35% chance to fail for the average fighter. But if he fails... just keep accumulating, and admire the DD36.
I'll rewrite this with the previous changes :
Resolute Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm, she can concentrate all her available attacks during her turn into one single focused shot. The gunslinger must focus all her attacks into a full-attack action against one opponent. The gunslinger can only misfire once per round in this way, and the misfire of an attack roll only affects those that follow it, not those that precede it. Any damage reduction that the target may possess is applied only once, but the damage is calculated as if the gunslinger had made a full-attack action. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this deed.*(Maxximilius)
Hack and Shoot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm as a melee weapon during a full-attack action, she can use her second and fourth attack on each hand to discharge her guns instead of using them as melee weapons. In so doing, the gunslinger uses her normal bonuses to hit and does not provoke any attacks of opportunity. This deed does not grant the gunslinger any additional attacks. The gunslinger must have the Pistol Whip deed to select this deed. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this deed.* (Maxximilius)
Innovation
Alchemical Powder (Ex): The gunslinger can enhance her black powder mixture by adding alchemical components. Each time a gunslinger selects this innovation, she must select one energy type from the following list: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. All subsequent attacks made and deeds performed while using the powder deals +1d6 alchemical damage of the energy type the gunslinger has selected. Powders may be combined into one, but the gunslinger must have 1 grit point remaining for each type of alchemical powder she chooses to employ. If the gunslinger is low on grit points, she may select which energy related powder is "active" when reloading her firearm. This alchemical damage is similar to other energy based damage. Any deed that produces a zone effect which allows a saving throw to halve damage may be inflicted with any combination of elements the Gunslinger already chose ; for example, a gunslinger with fire and acid powder could change a deed inflicting 4d6 damage on a 30ft cone so that it inflicts 3d6 fire and 1d6 physical damage, 4d6 acid, or 2d6 fire and 2d6 acid. * (Maxximilius)
Alchemical Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger creates shot, she may add alchemical components to the process to infuse them with one of the following energy types. You must have at least one element from Alchemical Powder to select this innovation.
Activating or deactivating a specific alchemical shot is part of her reloading action. Alchemical shots improve any Alchemical Powder of the same element you already chose, and so their effects stack, but you can only apply one effect from Alchemical Shot at a time.
Fire Shot: Fashioned with a phosphorous core, each shot now explodes on impact, catching the target in a short but intense burst of fire. The gunslinger may shoot any inflammable material to ignite it. Any target hit by fire shot is considered dazzled for 1 round. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is blinded and catches fire for one round, suffering 1d6 fire damage at the beginning of its next turn.
Cold Shot: Fashioned with a full concentrated eternal ice jacket, this shot is activated by a deflagration. The gunslinger may target any square on the battlefield (AC 10), covering it in a 1½ ft. puddle of water that is now considered difficult terrain, except for the purpose of charging. If the gunslinger discharges a second cold shot into the square, or if she confirms a critical hit when doing so the first time, she creates a sheet of frozen water. This ice sheet functions as the grease spell with a caster level equal to his gunslinger level. The gunslinger can also shoot an existing puddle, but there is a 25% chance the freezing effect fails. This chance of failure increases to 50% in any warm terrain and 75% in the extreme heat caused by deserts or volcanoes.
Electricity Shot: Fashioned with a potent natural magnet node in the head, this shot is instantly attracted to any ferrous based metal, whether armor, weapons, or equipment. Whenever the gunslinger fires an electricity shot at a target wearing metal armor, wielding a metal weapon or shield, or having suffered before at least one electricity shot critical hit from the gunslinger, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack and damage rolls. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against any target, the circumstance bonus she gets against her improves by +1, to a maximum of the actual number of grit points the gunslinger got.
Acid Shot: Fashioned with a potent corrosive coating, the acid is activated on contact with moist skin or flesh, like that of a fresh puncture wound. Acid shot ignores 5 points of hardness from objects, and inflicts 2 additional acid damage per shot. Inn addition, any creature pierced with an acid shot is also poisoned. The corrosive poison has the following properties: Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 8; Frequency 1/round for 1 round; Effect 1 Con damage; Cure 1 save.
The effects from successive acid bullet strikes stack, making the poison within the target’s bloodstream more potent. However, the save is not made for each bullet, but at the beginning of the target’s subsequent turn. Thus, if a target is hit 4 times by a gunslinger’s acid shot in a single combat round, she would be required to make a DD14 save every round for 4 rounds, and lose 1 Con every round until she makes a successful saving throw. If she was to fail it's save and be hit by 2 two more acide rounds, she would be required to make a DD18 save every round for 6 rounds, and lose 1 Con every round until it makes a successful saving throw, as for each poison, one more dose increases the DD by 2 and the duration by 50% down-rounded.* (Maxximilius)
(The poison is still maybe a bit too much powerful as an effect. But Acid could for example act like the Accelerate Poison spell for each poison you apply separately on the bullets... who spoke about a multiclassed gunslinger-alchemist using sticky poison ans Accelerate Poison acid bullets ? :D)
Also, something which should please wannabe Gunmages :
Deed, lvl.6 =
Gunmage (Ex) : The gunslinger can reload any firearm with a wand containing a spell with a ranged touch attack. As long as he got at least 2 grit remaining, the gunslinger is considered as having this spell in it's spell list, and can activate it like a wand, using the bonuses he can apply to his firearm to this attack. A magus with the Wand wielder arcane can take this deed without needing any grit, and thus use his gun as part of Spell Combat.
(Mmmh, maybe later a greater Deed to dual-wield gun-wands or put a staff in a rifle ?)
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Others who wish to be "like" gunslingers but do not take the class at level one (hence no free weapons) will be required to take the feat "Secret Stash Deed", which will need to be modified slightly to allow the character to have a "Supplier" of the actual weapons. This will give them the ability to purchase the weapons at the new low level price and have "some" blackpowder and shot with which to use them.
I like the fact that Paizo does not just release a completely overpowered class, but rather reigns it in and allows us to work it out for ourselves. No amount of playtesting will provide the cheese that actual players will come up with.
If the DM allows a gunslinger, why the player couldn't provide itself with ammunitions, this being by alchemy or buying them ? It would be like allowing a Paladin Mount in a world where no food can feed your horse, or a wizard in a world where magic doesn't exist or needs awesome and scrolls the price of a Lamborghini to work. Though, the others issues you put here have been acknowledged by the designers. :)
Errata-ing myself on the acid shot, poison can be a high DD ability but only in case of critical hit. Only Cold still bugs me, it's a fine battlefield control effect, essentially allowing you to spend two attacks (or one if crit./good conditions) to laugh at anyone wanting to try to melee you or an ally/use stairs/do anything you can find for Grease, but even if it's always useful, it's a bit more circumstancial than the other ones. Or not. Just throw any idea for any ability useful without being indispensable, the actual one being good enough in itself. Something like "1d6 Cold damage everytime you move on the frozen square and per round you stay on it" or "a critical hit doesn't inflict the usual additional cold damages from Alchemical Powder, but casts the equivalent of Chill Metal on the target, this effect doesn't stack with itself, doesn't require any metal and the only way to counter it is by neutralizing the cold with an equal quantity of fire damage" coud be a kind of good addition, don't you think ?
Finally, I think stacking Alchemical Shots should be allowed, but not the effects they grant on a critical hit. So, no Explosive-Poisonous critical. :
Acid Shot: Fashioned with a potent corrosive coating, the acid is activated on contact with moist skin or flesh, like that of a fresh puncture wound. Acid shots ignore 5 points of hardness from objects, and inflict 2 additional acid damage per shot. In addition, whenever the gunslinger confirms a critical hit with an Acid shot, the victim is also poisoned. The corrosive poison has the following properties: Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 16; Frequency 1/round for 1 round; Effect 1 Con damage and Fatigue; Cure 1 save.
The effects from successive acid bullet strikes stack as if applying poison several times, making the toxin within the target’s bloodstream more potent, with the exception of the Fatigue effect which can't exhaust a creature already fatigued. As for every poison, the save is made immediately when the bullet strikes. If the save is failed, the victime instantly loses 1 Con, is fatigued for one round and the poison dissolves when the gunslinger's round is over. Though if another critical hit lands on the same round, the DD increases by 2 and the duration by 50%, so that the victim must immediately make a new Fortitude save with a DD18. If failed, the victim loses another 1 Con and the poison is still potent for one round, so another save must be done at the beginning of the next gunslinger's round, etc.
In the event that is has not been mentioned, Gunslingers are sorely lacking in the needed feat slots. They should add a bonus feat at level one and the even levels as they did with the fighter in order to give the Gunslinger a decent chance.
If they make the deeds mechanics work like the rougue talents, they just need to add in a Feats deed, that can be taken multiple times, each time a new combat or grit feat.
Gunslinger Feat: A gunslinger that selects this deed gains a bonus combat or grit feat. This deed can be taken multiple times.
And thankyou for the Errata Maxximilius.
... DD increases by 2 and the duration by 50%, so that the victim must immediately make a new Fortitude save with a DD18. If failed, the victim loses another 1 Con and the poison is still potent for one round, so another save must be done at the beginning of the next gunslinger's round, etc.
DD? Do you mean DC?
Ok, if I might make a suggestion for more thoughts?
I know the gunslinger is currently a fighter archetype. However, it's a GIGANTIC departure from the fighter. Enough so that between skill changes, etc, it probably ought to be it's own class. I think the few things it keeps with Fighter could probably be handled by just referencing the fighter. Similar to how core classes reference barbarian for evasion and such, and then just add in the same text from the Samurai saying 'And gunslinger has an effective fighter level of gunslinger level (- X), these levels stack with fighter for purposes of qualifying for feats.'.
Given that, then I think there should be some alternate gunslinger builds (another reason it should be it's own class). For example, a gunslinger that concentrates on a mixture of melee and gunslinging (the classic Musketeer type or swashbuckling pirate), another that specializes in long guns (the hunter archetype), the sniper archetype, and so on.
...Cold still bugs me, it's a fine battlefield control effect, essentially allowing you to spend two attacks (or one if crit./good conditions) to laugh at anyone wanting to try to melee you or an ally/use stairs/do anything you can find for Grease, but even if it's always useful, it's a bit more circumstancial than the other ones. Or not. Just throw any idea for any ability useful without being indispensable, the actual one being good enough in itself. Something like "1d6 Cold damage everytime you move on the frozen square and per round you stay on it" or "a critical hit doesn't inflict the usual additional cold damages from Alchemical Powder, but casts the equivalent of Chill Metal on the target, this effect doesn't stack with itself, doesn't require any metal and the only way to counter it is by neutralizing the cold with an equal quantity of fire...
Could be not have it become a sheet of ice right off the bat? Or simply have it freeze the next round, thus a 2 round chemical reation?
Rnd 1) water puddle
Rnd 2) freezes into an ice patch
Then anyone moving onto it take 1d6/round
Or, if it strikes a target, it "chill metals" the target. It could have both effects, depending on the circumstance; target is chilled, and ground becomes a frozen puddle?
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DD? Do you mean DC?
Yep, my mistake, this should be "DC".
Could be not have it become a sheet of ice right off the bat? Or simply have it freeze the next round, thus a 2 round chemical reation?
Rnd 1) water puddle
Rnd 2) freezes into an ice patchThen anyone moving onto it take 1d6/round
Or, if it strikes a target, it "chill metals" the target. It could have both effects, depending on the circumstance; target is chilled, and ground becomes a frozen puddle?
Actually... it's a pretty awesome idea. Though seeing how much the Chill effect is powerful, I got something else to suggest. 8D
The delayed or double-attack system was intended so that no gunslinger would play with the battlefield so easily that no melee combattant could get to them if they just shot at least one bullet on the right square on their round. This way, a charging enemy can still come to them if he is fast enough to react. The fact that Acid is poisoning was for the fluff, but also because poison is useless against most targets who got no defense against acid, as a way of balance. The other ones got "more" useful usages as debuff, battlefield control and sniping, because immunities are far more current for cold/fire/electricity, always as a way of balance. So in Cold's case (insert jingle here), a critical could inflict 1d6 more Cold damage and create a free water puddle square under the victim's feets that freezes normally on the next gunsliger's round. Plus, anyone walking onto a frozen puddle would take 1d6 Cold damage when moving, and if they are on top of one at the beginning of each round.Cold is a tricky one to balance because it pretty much allows a gunslinger to freeze every square in front of her, then shoot in the run without allowing any melee class the chance to catch her... but there is also a third possibility :
Round 1) Water puddle (Difficult terrain, can charge)
Round 2) Frozen mud (Difficult terrain, cannot charge)
Round 3) Sliping ice (Grease spell)
So it doesn't rape any melee class on the first or second round, while staying a good battlefield control, effectively slowing movements on the map from the first round to the third.
Allow me to expand on some of your Innovation ideas, for the sake of SOME realism.
Bullet and Cartridge: Neither or these work without percussion caps, which Paizo don't seem to be keen on using. I would recommend, again, another Innovation for percussion caps, which would decrease misfire chance, then the use of cylinder loading (ball, powder, and cap crammed into the chamber), then POSSIBLY the use of cartridges. I wouldn't put money on Paizo actually putting caps or cartridges into the game, though.
Efficacious Dose: I see where you're coming from. Don't like it, but I can see why you'd use it. Can't really think of anything to make it work better...
Improved Shot and Greater Shot: These can better be handled with accuracy-based deeds. The only thing I can recommend for this kind of damage-increasing Innovation is a larger bore. Should increase damage by one die size for every shot. That's all.
Reliability and Steadfastness: Worded poorly, but I like them.
Revolver (Pistol): Long guns had revolving mechanisms, too. My suggestion: Change the name to 'Repeating,' make it 6 chambers and available for long guns and pistols. Perhaps have a second one that can be taken later that ups the number of chambers to 8?
Rifled Barrel and Shot: Only the barrel needs to be rifled. The rifling carves the grooves into the bullets as they pass through. Rifled slugs only exist for blunderbusses, which are ALWAYS smoothbore. Beyond that, I would definitely say to drop the +2 to attack, and change the damage to 2d6 for long guns and 2d4 for pistols. I'll explain in a separate spoiler below. Further, if the gun is still muzzle-loaded, this one needs to increase reload time significantly.
Silencer: No. Suppressors are a VERY modern invention. Too modern.
I would recommend another Innovation for adding a second or third barrel.
Rifling and damage:
For those who don't know, multiple dice give much more consistent damage, while single dice have a higher chance to get high damage, but also a higher chance to get lower damage. For example: Rolling 2d6 gives you a 1:36 chance to roll a 12 (max), or a 2(min). For a 7 (average), on the other hand, you have a 1:6 chance. With 3d4? 1:64 chance for min or max, with a 1:4 for an average roll, 7 or 8. 1d12 gives a 1:12 chance for every value.
Now, for the reasoning.
A bullet fired from a smoothbore weapon tumbles through the air, losing speed and changing course. Thing is, this tumble is never the same twice, which means that it could strike with higher velocity, but in a non-critical location, or in a critical location, but without enough velocity to really damage the tissue. It has just as much chance to do next to nothing as it does to do a whole lot. Hence, the single-die damage works perfectly for a smoothbore weapon.
For rifled barrels, though, the spin is almost always the same. Sure, windage applies, but in a game situation, the roll of the attack die accounts for that (for smoothbores, the attack roll accounts a little more for luck than much else). So for rifled guns, a 2-die damage system makes more sense. Even a 3-die system would work, but I think that might be pushing it...
Well, here’s some changes/alterations, additions.
To Maxximilius
Your changes to Alchemical Power are +1
Check these out.
Acid Shot: Fashioned with a potent corrosive coating that covers the entire shot, the acid is activated on contact with moist skin or flesh, like that of a fresh puncture wound. Acid shot ignores 5 points of hardness from objects, and inflicts 1 acid damage per shot against living creatures. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is also poisoned. The corrosive poison has the following properties: Type poison, injury; Save Fortitude DC 14; Frequency 1/round for 1 round; Effect 1 Con damage, fatigued; Cure 1 save.
The effects from successive acid shot strikes stack, much like applying poison several times, making the poison within the target’s bloodstream more potent. The save is made immediately when the shot strikes. If the target fails its save, it instantly loses 1 Con, is fatigued for one round, and the poison dissolves at the beginning of the gunslinger's next turn. However, if another critical hit is confirmed on the same round, the target is poisoned again, increasing the poison’s DC by 2 and its duration by 50%. Thus, the victim must immediately make an additional DC16 Fortitude save. If the target fails this save, it loses an additional 1 Con and the poison remains potent for one additional round, forcing another save at the beginning of the gunslinger's next turn.
Cold Shot: Fashioned with a concentrated eternal ice jacket, this shot is activated by a deflagration. Any target hit by cold shot is chilled, and is considered slowed for 1 round. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is slowed for 2 rounds and suffers 1d6 cold damage at the beginning of its next turn. Conversely, the gunslinger may target a single square on the battlefield (AC 10), and discharge her cold shot into the area. Doing so covers the square in a 1½ foot deep pool of water. The square is now considered difficult terrain, except for the purpose of charging. On the gunslinger’s next turn, through an alchemical reaction, the water begins to freeze, becoming a pool of frozen mud. The square remains difficult terrain, even against a charge. On the gunslinger’s third turn, the frozen mud becomes a sheet of ice. Those that enter the square, including the gunslinger, suffer the effects of a grease spell until they leave the square.
Electricity Shot: Fashioned with a natural magnet node, this shot is instantly attracted to any ferrous based metal, whether armor, weapons, or equipment. Whenever the gunslinger discharges an electricity shot at a target wearing metal armor, wielding a metal weapon or shield, or having suffered at least one critical hit from a previous electricity shot, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack and damage rolls. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against any target, her circumstance bonus increases by an additional +1 per grit point the gunslinger has remaining. In addition, any large metal object upon the target’s person, such as armor or a weapon, is magnetized, instantly drawing small metal objects within 5 feet to them.
Fire Shot: Fashioned with a phosphorous core, each shot now explodes on impact, catching the target in a short but intense burst of fire. The gunslinger may shoot any inflammable material to ignite it. Any target hit by fire shot is considered dazzled for 1 round. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against the target, the target is blinded and catches fire for one round, suffering 1d6 fire damage at the beginning of its next turn.
Brave and Tough (Ex): A gunslinger gains a bonus on Fortitude saving throws and Will saving throws against fear, equal to ¼ her level.
Extra Innovation: A gunslinger that selects this deed can develop an additional innovation. This deed can be taken multiple times.
Gunslinger Feat: A gunslinger that selects this deed gains a bonus combat or grit feat. This deed can be taken multiple times.
Hack and Shoot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm as a melee weapon during a full-attack action, she can use her even number attacks on each hand to discharge her guns instead of using them as melee weapons. In so doing, the gunslinger uses her normal bonuses to hit and does not provoke any attacks of opportunity. This deed does not grant the gunslinger any additional attacks. The gunslinger must have the Pistol Whip deed and be at least 6th level to select this deed.
Resolute Shot (Ex): Whenever a gunslinger uses her firearm, she can combine her attacks into one single focused shot. The gunslinger must focus all her attacks into a full-attack action against one opponent. The gunslinger can only misfire once per round in this manner, and the misfire of any attack roll only affects those that follow it, not those that precede it. Any damage reduction that the target may possess is applied only once to the total damage of the shot, which is calculated as if the gunslinger had made a full-attack action. This deed stacks with the effects of Manyshot and Rapid Shot. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this deed.
To Odentin
In reference to my Innovations, I got rid of Breech Loader (you were right, I was thinking this meant this allowed one to rapidly reload shot from the barrel-like magazine found below the barrel, like on a Winchester rifle), Greater Shot, and Rifled Shot. I then either changed or reworded the following Innovations.
Cartridge: A gunslinger has developed a process by which she can more quickly and efficiently reload her firearm. The gunslinger can create special cartridges packed with black powder and shot. These cartridges improve the gunslinger’s reloading action by one–a standard action to a move action, a move action to a swift action, and a swift action to a free action. The gunslinger can create a number of cartridges per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation.
Efficacious Dose: A gunslinger’s process for crafting black powder is greatly improved. A single dose of black powder is now one-half the normal cost. A gunslinger must be at least 6th level before selecting this innovation.
Improved Shot: A gunslinger’s shot damage is enhanced. The damage of a gunslinger’s shot changes from 1d12 to 2d6. The gunslinger can create a number of improved shot per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier.
Reliability: A gunslinger improves her firearm so that it is less likely to misfire. This innovation reduces the misfire value of the gunslinger’s firearm by 1 (minimum 1). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm. A gunslinger must be at least 4th level before selecting this innovation.
Repeater: The gunslinger increases the capacity of her firearm. This innovation increases a pistol’s capacity to 4, and a musket’s capacity to 8. Thus, the gunslinger may make one or more full-attack actions before having to reload her firearm. The gunslinger must have the cartridge innovation and be at least 9th level to select this innovation.
Rifled Barrel: A gunslinger greatly increases the accuracy and range of her firearm. The gunslinger gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls, and the damage of her shot changes to 2d6. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation.
Steadfastness: A gunslinger improves her firearm so that it is less likely to misfire. This innovation reduces the misfire value of the gunslinger’s firearm by 2 (minimum 0). This reduction occurs after any increases are calculated for firing with the broken condition, or for any other effect that may increase the misfire value of a firearm. A gunslinger must be at least 8th level before selecting this innovation. This innovation supersedes the Reliability innovation.
Twin Barrel: A gunslinger increases the number of consecutive shots she can make with a single firearm. By adding a second barrel to her firearm, the gunslinger may discharge her firearm an additional time before needing to reload. A gunslinger must be at least 6th level before selecting this innovation.
Now, what I’d really like is some ideas for Legendary Deeds, and Grand Innovations, though, perhaps we should get rid of Grand Innovation altogether? I don’t know.
Let me know what you think.
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Electricity Shot: Fashioned with a natural magnet node, this shot is instantly attracted to any ferrous based metal, whether armor, weapons, or equipment. Whenever the gunslinger discharges an electricity shot at a target wearing metal armor, wielding a metal weapon or shield, or having suffered at least one critical hit from a previous electricity shot, she gains a +1 circumstance bonus to her attack and damage rolls. If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against any target, her circumstance bonus increases by an additional +1 per grit point the gunslinger has remaining. In addition, any large metal object upon the target’s person, such as armor or a weapon, is magnetized, instantly drawing small metal objects within 5 feet to them.
As it is written, it could be an epic version of Alchemical Shot, because any gunslinger with 7 grit points left and inflicting a critical electrical hit would gain an aditionnal +7, so going from 0 to +7 or +1 to a freaking +8 in one bullet !
It should be :"If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against any target, her circumstance bonus increases by an additional +1. This bonus stacks with itself, but can never be higher than the number of remaining grit points of the gunslinger. In addition, any large metal object upon the target’s person, such as armor or a weapon, is magnetized, instantly drawing small metal objects within 5 feet to them."
I love Brave and Though for the same reason that it looks like the homerule I did for the fighter, trading the useless Courage for a bonus to Will and Reflexes equal to it's Constitution modifier, like the Paladin can do with charisma. It could allow for better saves if the class in itself lacks of power at some levels.
For other innovations, maybe in the taste of Twin Barrel, something to make the weapon act like a shotgun/heavy pistol could be fun ? These ones could be a bit more powerful but have a really lower range, allowing to shoot in melee with better bonuses and no AoO, shoot in a cone like a physical burning hand effect... but not be used in the pistoleer/one-handed style because of the kickback.
As it is written, it could be an epic version of Alchemical Shot, because any gunslinger with 7 grit points left and inflicting a critical electrical hit would gain an aditionnal +7, so going from 0 to +7 or +1 to a freaking +8 in one bullet !
It should be :"If the gunslinger confirms a critical hit against any target, her circumstance bonus increases by an additional +1. This bonus stacks with itself, but can never be higher than the number of remaining grit points of the gunslinger. In addition, any large metal object upon the target’s person, such as armor or a weapon, is magnetized, instantly drawing small metal objects within 5 feet to them."
Again, good point. We don't need epic innovations creeping in just yet. +1
Consider the change made.
Gonna continue to critique, in the spirit of milking the very best out of the ideas...
Efficacious Dose: I still don't like it, but I understand it.
Improved Shot: Ok, this one needs reworking. 1d12 to 2d6 is only making the damage more consistent, not making it better. I'd still recommend you rename it to increasing the caliber of the gun to increase damage. Pistols go to 1d10, muskets to...2d8? Not sure.
Reliability: I like it.
Repeater: Shouldn't require Cartridge, and should be 6, flat out, for both long guns and pistols.
Rifled Barrel: Might want to make sure you're not going from 1d8 to 2d6 with this on a pistol. Should be 2d4.
Steadfastness: I like it.
Twin Barrel: I like this as well. Though I might request it be "Additional Barrel," so that amazing 3- or 4-barrel monstrosities are possible at higher levels.
Ones I suggest: Bring back Breech Loading. Muzzleloading a rifle takes forever. Probably make it a move action to reload, no matter size, and make the gun more likely to misfire.
Blunderbuss: A scatter effect on one barrel of the firearm.
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I finished the community-inspired Gunslinger ! This take is a melting pot of all ideas that were recently put on the table, from combat styles to innovations and Pickle shot. Some have been ignored because they were redundant with another capacity (for example, spend 1 grit to ignore concealment when there was a deed that made work weapon as if they got the Seeking ability if the gunslinger got at least 2 grit points left) or not useful enough in comparison of other deeds/innovations of the same level (adding +1d6 to some shots when alchemical powder already did it, etc.), improved to be chosen a bit faster, etc.
It is probably in no way perfect, but it should be a good base to design the final gunslinger with what the players had in mind when thinking about what this class should be able to do. And believe me, you will not lack of deeds or class options. Better have a lot of good ones from which you'll cut what you want to scrap and what you want to keep (when creating a character or designing the future gunslinger), than a few circumstancial ones that essentially make you lose one level to learn how to stop a bleeding the two times in your lvl.1-10 campaign it will happen.
It lacks a good presentation, but I didn't know how to make the same style than an official pdf...
Hope you'll enjoy !
To Odentin
Cartridge: Done
Efficacious Dose: Too bad. Something like this is needed to lower costs for the gunslinger. :)
I made the following changes to Improved Shot. Actually having it a larger shot I think makes it too cumbersome for the mechanics. Instead, they are just enhanced to make more damage, like they do with bullets today – hollow points, x-ed ends, soft points to mushroom on impact and create a larger exit wound. And yes, I know, they do have larger caliber bullets today, but we are dealing primarily with shot, not bullets. That’s my reasoning anyway.
Improved Shot: A gunslinger’s shot damage is enhanced. The damage of a gunslinger’s shot changes from 1d8 to 1d10 for pistols, and from 1d12 to 2d8 for muskets. The gunslinger can create a number of improved shot per day equal to her gunslinger level + her Dexterity modifier.
Reliability: Hope so, it's pretty much like the magical weapon ability.
Repeater: Shouldn't require Cartridge (I agree, after thinking about it); should be 6, flat out, for both long guns and pistols (my thoughts are, being that a shot is about 1” in diameter, the “revolver” mechanism would be 4”-5” wide, just for a pistol with 4 shots; due to size, a musket would more easily handle a 6 or even 8 shot chamber without being too clunky. This would allow a pistol 1 full-attack round, and musket 2 of them.)
Rifled Barrel: Made the changes. Increase in overall damage is now the Improved Shot innovation, while this is a more reliable shot.
It now reads: A gunslinger greatly improves the range and consistency of her firearm. The gunslinger’s firearm now has twice the range, 40 ft. for pistols, and 80 ft. for muskets. In addition, the gunslinger gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her attack rolls, and the damage of her shot changes to 2d4 for pistols, and 2d6 for muskets. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation.
Steadfastness: Just like Reliability.
Twin Barrel: Changed this to the following:
Additional Barrel: A gunslinger increases the number of consecutive shots she can make with a single firearm. For each additional barrel the gunslinger adds to her firearm, she may discharge her firearm one additional time before needing to reload. A gunslinger must be at least 6th level before selecting this innovation.
Ones I suggest: Bring back Breech Loading. Muzzleloading a rifle takes forever. Probably make it a move action to reload, no matter size, and make the gun more likely to misfire.
Breach Load: A gunslinger can reload her firearm through a side chamber instead of through the muzzle. The gunslinger can reload her firearm through a breach in the barrel, allowing her to load it as a move action instead of as a standard action. However, this breach compromises the integrity of the firearm, and thus increases its misfire value by 1. The gunslinger must be at least 6th level to select this innovation.
Blunderbuss: A scatter effect on one barrel of the firearm. (Not sure about this yet, especially when I figure the Devs will have a blunderbuss as a firearm choice when the time comes.
I’ve been thinking of adding a deed called Trick Shot, which would include things like Double Shot (load 2 shot in the barrel, and hit 2 opponents within 5 feet of each other), and other things people can come up with. ???
Again, anyone have ideas for Legendary Deeds or Grand Innovation?
I moved True Grit to Legendary Deeds, and added this one so far.
Blaze of Glory (Ex): Whenever the gunslinger’s hit point total drops below 0, she immediately gains the benefits of the Diehard feat. She instantly stabilizes and acts as if she is disabled, not dying. On her next turn, the gunslinger may make a full-attack action and gains a +2 morale bonus to her attack rolls as long as she has 2 grit points remaining. For each additional grit point she has remaining, this bonus increases by +1 to a maximum of her Dex modifier. Once the full-attack action is made, the gunslinger commences again as if she were dying.
Thoughts?
I finished the community-inspired Gunslinger ! This take is a melting pot of all ideas that were recently put on the table, from combat styles to innovations and Pickle shot. Some have been ignored because they were redundant with another capacity (for example, spend 1 grit to ignore concealment when there was a deed that made work weapon as if they got the Seeking ability if the gunslinger got at least 2 grit points left) or not useful enough in comparison of other deeds/innovations of the same level (adding +1d6 to some shots when alchemical powder already did it, etc.), improved to be chosen a bit faster, etc.
It is probably in no way perfect, but it should be a good base to design the final gunslinger with what the players had in mind when thinking about what this class should be able to do. And believe me, you will not lack of deeds or class options. Better have a lot of good ones from which you'll cut what you want to scrap and what you want to keep (when creating a character or designing the future gunslinger), than a few circumstancial ones that essentially make you lose one level to learn how to stop a bleeding the two times in your lvl.1-10 campaign it will happen.
It lacks a good presentation, but I didn't know how to make the same style than an official pdf...
Hope you'll enjoy !
Looks awesome!
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Don't forget to look in detail when downloading the pdf, some changes were made in pretty much everything, except in a great part of deeds I copy/pasted that seemed already balanced enough.
For example, to counter any "yay I just got free guns to sell !" effect, the free firearms at level 1 can't be sold or bartered. If the character does so, he gets a -2 moral malus to attack that can't be removed in any way, except by getting them back or buying new ones at full market price.
In the other way, because a lot of people complained about the fact that the free Lvl.1 firearms weren't masterwork, and that because of this, it was useless due to the fact that the gunslinger would still HAVE to buy new ones asap if she wants to enchant them some day ; I made it so that the firearm(s) obtained at first level automatically become Masterwork when reaching level 2, as a result of the gunslinger learning to execute a perfect maintenance on them.
Because the official rules doesn't include more than pistol and musket and that Ashiel's deeds were f%*@ing awesome and diversified, I essentially made two innovations that allow to do a pistol shotgun, a musket shotgun, and a overkill musk... a cannon musket. The first two are made to work with shotgun-oriented deeds for close-range big baddies-huge cojõnes characters, the third one is for... well... I actually included a radius burst per shot without saving throw in the first writing, but didn't know how much shot per round the class could throw up at mid-high level if she was to take all reloading feats and deeds. As you can guess, the cannon musket does big, big damage at long range with touch AC, but is really slow to reload and doesn't allow any precision damage from deeds, sneak, etc.
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Just wanted to say that I love what has been done in this thread. Thematically the Gunslinger is very appealing to me though, as Ashiel stated in the first post, there were many issues.
I absolutely love the pdf provided by Ashiel, and the additions provided by Maxx as well. Especially the Alchemical Shot, incendiary type rounds are very appealing.
Anyways, I just wanted to voice my support and that I love what has been done with the Gunslinger here. I do hope Paizo decides to go with a lot of these improvements and changes.
:edit: Forgot to also mention, I REALLY hope to see revolvers added. I love that Ashiel added them in along with the other gun types as well.
I'm dead on my feet. I'll go through and critique that pdf tomorrow, when I'm awake...
I just wanted to say that I hope the Devs take a good look at what's been said here in this thread, and especially at Maxximilius's compiled document. I think everything needed to really fix the gunslinger and make him a truly viable, exciting, and versatile class of its own (not a fighter alternate class).
I also want to say, no matter what they end up doing with the final version, it's been an honor and priviledge to have work with everyone on this threat, in an attempt to make the gunslinger what it should be. This has been a truly enjoyable experience, being able to bounce ideas off of each other with respect and mutual comraderie. This is what the game is all about. Thanks, and lets keep it going into the 2nd playtest, which I think is likely.
Now I think we need a 2nd release of the gunslinger playtest to really get it put right.
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Here comes the 1.3.
Again, little changes made a bit everywhere.
I just wanted to say that I hope the Devs take a good look at what's been said here in this thread, and especially at Maxximilius's compiled document. I think everything needed to really fix the gunslinger and make him a truly viable, exciting, and versatile class of its own (not a fighter alternate class).
I also want to say, no matter what they end up doing with the final version, it's been an honor and priviledge to have work with everyone on this threat, in an attempt to make the gunslinger what it should be. This has been a truly enjoyable experience, being able to bounce ideas off of each other with respect and mutual comraderie. This is what the game is all about. Thanks, and lets keep it going into the 2nd playtest, which I think is likely.
Now I think we need a 2nd release of the gunslinger playtest to really get it put right.
Actually, I tried to allow a typical fighter build with the Firearms training available at the same levels than the original ones through the deeds, but the original Gunslinger wasn't "+1 att and damage for one type of weapons, +2 when she chooses a new category where she gains +1" like a fighter does, but "chose ONE kind of firearm, you get +1 att. and your dex. modifier to damage". And you had to choose a new weapon several times without stacking them... ok. Except the fact that 95% of gunslingers will never use any other firearm type than the ones they got at level 1. So It's pretty much 4 special capacities wasted. I changed this, beyond others. Don't know how to express it from what you said on the work made for the gunslinger, so I'm just gonna say that your speech is true awesomeness, and a colossosal +1. :D
But like would say The Wolf : "Well, let's not start sucking each other's dicks quite yet."Slightly confused, or maybe I'm just misinterpreting things entirely, but, has Maxx taken over things for Ashiel or are we looking at two different versions of the Gunslinger in this thread?
The 1.3 community version I just put in this post has indeed it's skeleton ripped of the original 1.2 Ashiel's Gunslinger, which was both critically acclaimed and based on the alpha gunslinger. Having be heavily modified, it's intent is not to be perfectly playable and balanced just now considering the number of different builds it allows, even if someone who would want to playtest it with one or two different builds is welcome to do so ! :)
The fact that it isn't intended to be perfecly playable doesn't mean that it's horribly balanced at all, I think on this subject, the 1.3 is good and fun without being too weak or too powerful, the major mistake could be one little loophole abuse to create a über-build. But it isn't official, and it's true intent is just to show the designers what the community had to say about what we think the class should be since she has been showed to everyone in the Ultimate Combat playtest, or even sparkle the will to play one just by imagining the fun it would be. Where the fighter got lots of feats to improve in any direction he want, the Gunslinger got lots of deeds specialized in special movements, precision shots, heavy shots, cone shotgun attacks, smoke clouds on their square... a blazing storm of lead on the battlefield, mi-distance fighter, and mi-distance alchemist if he wants so. :)Edit : some changes which should be thinked twice : Cauterization should work with something else than stopping a bleeding. Because you just need to ask your rogue/ninja pal to puncture you and gain grit back life if it fell from the sky... Maybe an alternate way in addition to the "bleeding stopped => 2 grit" to use it, that heals 1 HP to gain 1 grit for example, deed usable only once per day.
Oh, hi Max and Elghinn. I really loved your suggestions with alchemical powder/alchemical shot, but I think that's way more linked to the alchemist. Then I made an alchemist archetype with your suggestions (credits given). Could you take a look and tell me what do you think?
Alright, as promised, a full review of the Fan-made Gunslinger (v1.3). Let us begin...
Proficiencies:
I support the loss of medium armor. It's unnecessary, really.
Firearms:
I like this as well, though I might push the masterwork quality thing back until 4th level, with the first innovation. I'll get to that in a bit.
Grit:
I like the total grit, it fits with existing mechanics (magus arcane pool), though I don't see why you START play with less than total grit. That's needlessly complicated. Also, I'm with the crowd that prefers Cha to Wis for Grit. Perhaps change it to Cha OR Wis, whichever is higher.
Also, there's no rules for regaining grit without certain deeds, which doesn't make too much sense. Either one should not be able to regain grit, or there need to be hard and fast rules for it, like there are now. The magus, for example, does not regain his arcane pool. It just seems like there's a lot of ways to regain grit, and not a lot of ways to spend it. It's not equal, by any stretch, and it should be at very least equal, if not easier to spend than to regain. Or just not be able to regain, and make it simpler to keep track of...
Deeds:
This is a long one...
Blinding Shot: I didn't like this one at first, but re-reading it, I actually do. A puff of hot smoke near the eyes would hurt. This is one of those deeds that has a grit regain mechanic that should just be built into grit, though.
Innovator: See my section on innovations.
Burst fire: This one really should have an ammo requirement...
Called Shot: I like most of these, though I'm worried about balance. Targeting an opponent's head should NOT be as easy as their torso. Neither should the leg or arm. I'd recommend a penalty on attacks made with this deed, to account for the difficulty. Also, I'd like to see a movement speed reduction for leg shot.
Cauterization: You have already brought up my concern with this one, though I would go a little further. I've already expressed concern with regaining grit through deeds. Should just be an end to bleed effects...
Deadeye Shot: Simple, though again, we're dealing with grit regeneration. This should cost grit, not return it. What's to stop me from just popping this every round and having an unlimited amount of grit?
Desperado: Just like Burst Fire, and should probably have that as a pre-req. Should also have a higher ammo requirement. I'd honestly suggest 6 (or the equivalent of a half-full repeater) be the requirement for Burst, and have this one require two full pistols.
Dive for Cover: Awesome. That is all.
Gunslinger Feat: Good option to have.
Lock and Load: It works.
Piercing Shot: Balanced enough mechanic, though I'm unsure of the extra damage. I guess it makes a weird sort of sense...
Pistol Whip: I like it, though might I suggest Piercing instead of Slashing damage? Bayonets are pointy, not edged.
Rapid Firing: Works well enough.
Repair Express: Works well enough.
Rolling Shot: I like it, but again, should cost grit, and not regain. I'm sounding like a bloody broken record here...
Shotgun Nightmare: Seems fair, though might be a little unbalanced without a grit cost. Maybe not. Might have to playtest that...
Shotgun Opera: Also seems fair.
Silver Bullet: Fair.
Smoking Guns: Seems reasonable.
Sharp Shooter: I would recommend requiring the rifling innovation for this one. And deadeye shot, for that matter...
Trick Shot: A ricochet shot mechanic? That works? Awesome! It feels like the wording could be made to work better, but I'm unsure how. Oh well, it's a great deed.
Faster Than Her Shadow: Seems fair.
Way of the Gun: Ok, here's where things get tricky. As it stands now, we've got 3 customization trees here. That's a few too many. My recommendation is to drop this. Just allow people to pick up these feats on their own. See my section at the end...
Innovations:
Another long one...
Alchemical Powder: I like this one, though I would make sure to specify that energy damage from the powder does NOT stack with damage from magic weapon abilities. Fire powder + a firey weapon should NOT provide +2d6 fire damage. No other class ability allows for stacking.
Alchemical Shot: Again, I like it. Though a level requirement might be in order.
Breech Loading: The rear of a gun barrel is called the breech. Hence the term "breech-loading." Semantics aside, I suggested this one. Would be weird of me not to like it.
Cartridge: I would, again, clarify that these are PAPER cartridges. Other than that, it works.
Efficacious dose: I understand it.
Healing Powder: I like this one. Would suck to forget and load it, though. End up healing your opponent. Though against undead...hmmm....
Improved Shot: Ok, Elghinn argued above that increasing the bore was more difficult than simply adding on something like hollow-point technology or something similar. Here's the problem: lead balls mushroom out or burst on their own. Modern hollow- and soft-points are actually based on getting a bullet to do the same thing as a musket ball. Further, making indentations or cuts to a spherical ball makes it unstable, and less likely to catch its target. Again, I argue that the bore size should be increased. Change in fluff, very minor change to mechanics (every shot deals more damage). Also, pistol should go from 1d8 to 1d10, not 12.
More Dakka: Nice reference. I like it. I'm still imagining some 4-barreled monstrosity...
Portable Cannon: The wording on this one seems odd. Changing the cannon? What?
Reliability and Steadfastness: Just like the magic weapon property, only mundane. It works.
Revolver: Ha! Now this is what I was looking for.
Rifling: Again, just the barrel. Also, should double the range increment.
Shotgun: I'm not sure I quite like this one. Stephen already said there will be rules for blunderbusses in UC. I would say that this should just change one barrel of a gun to be a blunderbuss, using whatever rules there are for them in UC. What I'm guessing, hoping for, is a spread effect. 15' cone for a long gun, 10' for a pistol. Not able to be combined with rifling. That's what a blunderbuss was. Otherwise, there's no real reason to take this over portable cannon.
Firearm Training: I like this, though I'd prefer to see a stacking system like the Fighter has.
Greater Deeds:
Long bit #3. I really do think these should just be under Deeds, with a higher level requirement.
Brave and Tough: Cool.
Double Action: Hmmm. I understand, and it works. Name just throws me. Oh well.
Double Tap: Again, the name throws me, but I like it.
Eagle Eyes: Again, I like it. Broken record again?
Gunmage: I think this one should be a feat, to aid multiclassing, not a deed.
Guns Akimbo: Broken record time. Like it.
Gun Kata: I'm a broken record. I'm a broken..
Hack and Shoot: Not too sure about how this works. So when TWP with a gun and melee weapon, you can shoot instead of pistol-whip? Why wouldn't you be shooting with every attack?
Hand Cannons: Should just be a part of the blunderbuss innovation, not a deed.
Keep Them Dancing: I really like this one. Not an outright damaging attack, but still awesome in its own right...
Resolute Shot: Pickle method? I do like it, though I think the original intent was to resolve each attack for damage, but only use one bullet? I don't remember entirely. Also, should only be usable with two-handed guns. Extra stability, and all. Might also require rifling, since it seems largely based on precision, though it doesn't have to. Just a thought.
Sniper Shot: I like it. And seems clear enough that it stacks with Imp. Crit. The only effect that does so.
Wounding Shot: I like it.
One More Bullet: Hmmm. I guess it works.
Legendary Deeds:
Again, too much. Just make these Deeds and give them a higher level requirement. Simple as that.
Gunslinger's Curse: Not too sure about this one. Dunno if the thought of a gunslinger being able to magically curse a target with a mundane weapon fits the feel of the class...
Marked For Death: I...what? This one makes almost no sense. An intimidate check that makes all your allies get a bunch of crits on an enemy? It doesn't make sense, fluff wise, and it's broken as all Hell. A boss monster could go down in a single round with this. Too powerful.
Sentinel: I like this one, but perhaps should be an AoO? Seems better to make it an AoO mechanic.
True Grit: Meh. Simple enough. It works.
Legendary Gunslinger: Ok, am I reading this right? At the start of EVERY ROUND, the Gunslinger gains a bunch of hit points? I realize that she isn't healed, but even barbarians don't get anything like this. It makes the 'slinger harder to kill than the d12 barbarian. The rest of it seems fine, but not that.
I'll not go into the feats or items at the end. I'm here simply for the class.
Here's the changes I would suggest.
Innovations: You've already got this set up properly, though I'd move them to 3, 7, 11, 15. Fully replace Armor Training. Now, instead of having to choose innovations, make that number the number of upgrades a gun can have on it. At 3rd level, only 1 innovation per gun. At 7th, 2 innovations per gun. For innovations like alchemical powder, simply state that the gun has to be modified to ACCEPT the more volatile powder without destroying it completely. I'd also say that at 18th, add something like Innovation Mastery, allowing the 'slinger to add as many innovations to a gun as he wants.
Might also put something in there that states that once upgraded, no one, other than another gunslinger of appropriate level, can use the firearm.
Deeds: Put them on the even levels, like the fighter bonus feats they're replacing.
Firearm Training: Put it back the way it was for the fighter. One type of gun, stacking bonuses, 5, 9, 13, 17. Just to make it simpler. I know why you did it as just one time, but right now it seems contrived and tacked on. It's simpler to stick with what Paizo did for the original fighter, in this case.
Way of the Gun: Make a couple of deeds that might improve these combat styles, but otherwise leave the bonus feat deed for people who want to do this kind of thing. Again, keep it simple.
Honestly, I love what you guys have done with it. I know I'm late to the party, but I hope my suggestions have helped make for a better 'slinger. I must say I've enjoyed the short time I've been helping here, and hope to be able to continue.
The 1.3 'slinger has a lot going on. Too much, in fact. It's time to trim back a bit, simplify a few things. After that, I believe it'll be a strong, functioning class.
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I agree with Odentin that there is a bit too much going, though I am no expert on this kind of thing by any means so I didn't want to say anything before.
Reading through Ashiel's 1.2 it didn't feel like there was too much imho and it all flowed nicely, though again I am no expert. Then reading through the 1.3 it felt as though there was more going on, maybe bloated even.
This is just my opinion as a regular tabletop RPG player, I've never really dabbled in making my own stuff like this and so forth. Anyways, just thought everyone working on this might like the opinion of someone without all that knowledge, different perspective and all that jazz.
Alright, as promised, a full review of the Fan-made Gunslinger (v1.3). Let us begin...
** info and spoilers omitted **...
I really like a lot of your suggestions, Odentin. I thikn we have a lot of great ideas, now they just need the fat trimmed and to be streamlined. I'm just working on shuffling/fixing things with the current 1.3 gunslinger. When I have it I'll post it on my mediafire and notify everyone.
Just tossing this out there but this is Ashiel's thread and ultimately class. I feel it unfair to "release" a "1.3" without Ashiels' permission.
Also I agree that this "1.3" has more bloatware than a name brand laptop.
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Shotgun: I'm not sure I quite like this one. Stephen already said there will be rules for blunderbusses in UC. I would say that this should just change one barrel of a gun to be a blunderbuss, using whatever rules there are for them in UC. What I'm guessing, hoping for, is a spread effect. 15' cone for a long gun, 10' for a pistol. Not able to be combined with rifling. That's what a blunderbuss was. Otherwise, there's no real reason to take this over portable cannon.
I didn't know about this, I'm glad the official rules will allow for something like that !
As specified, the 1.3 wasn't mean to be a fully playable class, more like a full-course menu in which the designers and players could see what was suggested for the class by the community, with the maximum adaptation I could think off while putting the ideas to seem like they could work together. Bloating is even intentional, if I could say so, because there was no reason to cut deeds/mechanisms that wouldn't work as written just now with UC's guns, but could serve as a good base for official ruling - for gunslinger or for another class variant in the UC. The skeleton being Ashiel's gunslinger, and so thought for different weapon rules, I had to try to adapt the innovations so that we could keep most of the deeds with only a base pistol & musket as weapons.For innovations, those that change the cannon of the weapon (maybe a best word in english would have been "structure" or "cylinder" ?) were intended to change a weapon way of functioning, in that case, the shotgun did less damage than a straight BFG like Portable Cannon, but this last one is slow to reload, and the shotgun was the only one allowing for zone-effect deeds that stacked pretty well with alchemical shots. But maybe alchemical shots/powders should be an item and not a class capacity for gunslinger, or stay as a alchemist variant like freduncio's take on the subject.
Thanks for the suggestions though, it will help everyone and is always interesting. :)
Just tossing this out there but this is Ashiel's thread and ultimately class. I feel it unfair to "release" a "1.3" without Ashiels' permission.
Well, now I feel bad, you're right, I should have named it "alpha" or something else, but I couldn't think of an appropriate name at the time (and right now, "Community's Gunslinger", or "Run With Firearms, or Why I Want To Play a Gunslinger or A Gun Variant And Explode Things") just comes to my mind. Sigh.). I apologize about this. If you can, Elghin, maybe name the future "1.4" file with something more appropriate and post in your message a link to original Ashiel's Gunslinger ?
@Maxx: Ok, I understand where you're coming from. There still needs to be some fat trimmed, though. The greater and legendary deeds should still be combined with deeds and given a proper level requirement, just as an example. Still, there's more good than bad in the class right now.
Also, to be fair, this is Paizo's forum. Just because Ashiel started the thread doesn't mean that he/she is the only one who's allowed to post any kind of new revision of a fan-made class here. Ashiel started the ball rolling, the others kept it going. Its been repeated over and over that Ashiel started this. If they wanted to be in here giving more input, they would be. There's nothing unfair about it.
I will be calling it Gunslinger Alpha, Maxximilius, since it hasn't been used yet. And Odentin is right. Just like many other threads I've followed, like the "Pickle" idea from PDK, everyone has contributed, even though Ashiel started it off. He's been given ample credit for ALL he's done (which is significant). He's more than welcome to chime back in. So, thankyou to Ashiel, and EVERYONE that's contributed to this thread. All of us are a part of the greater and better whole, just trying to improve a playtest. I hope to post said Alpha today. It will look a bit different, as per the Class Advancement Table, but most of the things that have been included in 1.3 will still be there. It would be nice if we knew what other types of firearms are going to come down the pike though.
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Also, to be fair, this is Paizo's forum. Just because Ashiel started the thread doesn't mean that he/she is the only one who's allowed to post any kind of new revision of a fan-made class here. Ashiel started the ball rolling, the others kept it going. Its been repeated over and over that Ashiel started this. If they wanted to be in here giving more input, they would be. There's nothing unfair about it.
I agree, but for the principle, even with the open content licence and the credits, I should have named it a bit differently, and not like if it was a natural extension. But well, anyone looking at this post will take the last file available and read what has been said, so I guess it will be forgotten as soon as these posts are read and the Gunslinger Alpha from ElghinN, available (the name's typo on the previous message was due to me being late and not able to check twice, sorry).
But well, I'll check on the alpha as soon as RL and my brain allow me some time.
Quick advice needed, I'm thinking of replacing the fighter's Bravery feature, with bonus feats for the gunslinger. He has the gunslinger feat deed available to him, but is that enough? I will be getting rid of the "way of the Gun" feature, a bit too clunky for the build. Thus, there are no other extra feats available. So the question is, just leave the gunslinger with the option to choose the Gunsliner Feat deed all alone, or suppliment it with additional bonus feats in place of the bravery feature. It only gives them 5 more over the course of 20 levels, far less than the what, 11 the fight receives? Suggestions?
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Mmh... if it can help, the world setup I play in has some homebrews I suggested to the GM to improve the classes balance =
- The fighter, which is probably the only one interesting in the Gunslinger's case (I couldn't resist to put in the other classes homebrews just after this one, to grasp a glimp of reaction from other Pathfinder players, just in case. I know, it's machiavellian, hahaha. Please don't kill me.), got, instead of Bravery, it's Constitution bonus as a bonus to Will and Reflexes, like the Divine Health from the Paladin oorks with Charisma. In case of multiclassing though, only the highest value between charisma and constitution is taken in account. So what I suggest if the class is intended as a true variant of the Fighter and so will have the same power at best (though I think it should hit less hard and do more "interesting" tricks), is to add her Wisdom bonus to Fortitude and Reflexes, something called like "Intrepid instincts", that wouldn't stack with a paladin Divine Health. I think it is well representative of the survivor's instincts that could show up in a Clint Eastwood-like character, using her experience and senses to get out of tricky situations. It improved the fighter just what it needed without making him a beast at all, so it should work for the Gunslinger too, especially when this one focuses on a MAD attribute.
(The following isn't related at all to the gunslinger, but I think this can always be interesting for some people.)
- Druids don't choose either a domain or an animal companion, and then get for free wild shape like normal. They get the free domain level 1, and choose either the wild shape or the animal companion at level 4. Alternatively they can choose the animal companion at level 1, so at level 4 they get the free domain.
- Barbarian's rage isn't anymore +4 Strength & Constitution, +2 Will, -2 AC ; it's +4 Strength & DR 1/-, +2 Will, +1 temporary HP/level and - 2 AC. Greater Rage is +6 Strength, DR 2/-, +4 Will, +1,5 temporary HP/level and -2 AC. Capstone Rage is +8 Strenght, +8 Will, +2 temporary HP/level and -2 AC. Each level of trap sense becomes either +1 natural armor (not stackable with enhancement), or +2 to a save. Rage DR stacks with the later levels increases, but the rage power Increased Damage Reduction can be taken only once. Elves doesn't have any "barbarians" but "Dancingblades" or "Danselames", with the "only" difference that Rage is called a Fury, that increases dexterity instead of Strenght and doesn't inflicts the -2 AC...
It makes the Barbarian less sensible to multiple little attacks, like you could expect from the muscle mass running into little goblins. It allows him to not die like an ass if he got 22 HP at level 7-8 and someones Calms Emotion on him/puts him to -1 thanks to the bonus HPs being temporary and thus taken first, and he's more resilient to higher levels (Barbarian's weakness) but got a bit less total HP. Though, he can end up with higher DR at higher levels. And the Fury version, well... it's good. Perfect to surprise your party with "barbarian elves ? Lol ! ... Hey, why the hell is my spine flying and this guy so hard to hit ?". I recommend the 1d10 Elven sword, keen, power attack, finesse.
Out of the subject, something I wanted to bounce on :
Cauterization: You have already brought up my concern with this one, though I would go a little further. I've already expressed concern with regaining grit through deeds. Should just be an end to bleed effects...
I understand your opinion about not wanting to see a lot of deeds that give grit back - or even, any deed that does it at all, if there is an alternative way to do so. Though, even if the fluff of stopping a bleeding with powder is perfect, it shouldn't be a deed by itself. Seriously, level 4, you select a deed that pierces through the enemy or increases your range with firearms, and level 6, you get to choose between fast reloading, heavy close-range shooting, mass-shooting everywhere in your range, or stopping a bleed. Woaw, the choice is, like, hard. Stopping a bleed should be part of a utility shot-deed, allowing for some different kinds of actions like breaking a lock, throwing a signal, destroy a little object...
Elghinn: I'd say no. Just leave it out entirely...
Maxx: There isn't a utility shot deed, is there? Why not just add in the one that's in the playtest version, just make it available at lvl 1?
I have another question. Am I reading it correctly, the you can change from a blunderbuss to a musket at any time? In just a number of rounds? I disagree with this. If you add this to a firearm, it should be permanent. Or, at least as permanent as any of the other innovations.
I also think there should be rules for changing out innovations. Maybe it takes an hour of work? Or a day? Or you can change it when you gain a level? Something...
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Maxx: There isn't a utility shot deed, is there? Why not just add in the one that's in the playtest version, just make it available at lvl 1?
I have another question. Am I reading it correctly, the you can change from a blunderbuss to a musket at any time? In just a number of rounds? I disagree with this. If you add this to a firearm, it should be permanent. Or, at least as permanent as any of the other innovations.
The utility shot is available at level 11 for the playtest version, though you're right, it should be basically a low-level capacity available without having to choose a deed.
As it was written in the "1.3", the shotgun-blunderbuss or portable cannon innovations were intended to be changed quickly. Mostly because it's a special ability for a class which for now suffers from some problems with reloading and actions, and that the effects weren't a big huge improvement, just allowing to play differently. The full round required for a change in one weapon didn't seem too hard considering the alchemist's capacity to change the bomb at any time. But again, it was an adaptation to work with Ashiel's deeds and Pathfinder firearms, not something that should be taken as perfect. I thought about stacking More Dakka and special cannons, but it was pretty much looking like nothing. Just imagine a double-blunderbuss-one pickle revolver... and yeah, it looked a bit like nothing, actually.God, now I want to play with these. DAMN GOOGLE.
Like I was saying, I enjoy the thought of some fantastic weapons. One of my vague thoughts was actually pretty conservative: A 2-barrel gun, one blunderbuss, one rifled. A long range weapon, with a scattergun in case the enemies get close. Similar to the modern M16 with the grenade launcher attached to the bottom.
Scatterguns/blunderbusses/shotguns should be cone effects, and that innovation, along with the cannon and every other innovation, should be permanent. Again, perhaps a day's work can change out innovations. Seems fair...
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A 2-barrel gun, one blunderbuss, one rifled.
I like this. But thinking about it, would the blunderbuss be usable as part of an attack with the weapon (+14/+9 Pickle pistol/+3 Blunderbuss), a weapon in itself only (+8/+3 Blunderbuss), or an off-hand weapon without being litteraly off-hand (ideal for a musket, allowing for some kind of TWF +14/+9/+4 Musket/+14/+9 Blunderbuss)?
And with the pickle, it essentially allows to shoot at least twice in the same round, since there are two barrels and that the first one can deal damages several times.For the innovation problem, I guess if Elghinn is going this way and takes into account the fact that blunderbuss will already be in the official rules, restate that the deeds needing "the shotgun upgrade" will instead "need at least one blunderbuss barrel". So, the shotgun innovation can become "with one hour of work, change any of your weapon barrel for a blunderbuss one". The problem of permanent upgrades is that they need to be better than the previous weapon, when the innovations as written in 1.3 doesn't follow this logic. And if you change your pistol for a mini-blunderbuss, you don't get a better weapon, just another one, like going from a long sword with a 1,5 feet range to another one that deals more damage but only usable in close quarter - so if you don't get any kind of real advantage from this, you should be able to use the previous design at any time. This would not be the case is the quarrel increased your range, though.
When taking More Dakka with blunderbuss innovation, it would essentially allow to add either a normal barrel or a shotgun one.
It's when you start to add more strange barrels that it becomes ugly when the class isn't fundamentally a weird one...
Hey fellow Gunslingers, another searching question. I need some advice on a "Grand Innovation" feature, based upon the Alchemist's Grand Discovery. So far it reads:
Grand Innovation: At 20th level, the gunslinger develops a grand innovation. She immediately learns two normal innovations, but also learns a third innovation chosen from the list below, representing a truly innovative firearm breakthrough of significant import. For many gunslingers, the promise of one of these grand innovations is the primary goal of their experimental craft and hard work.
Some GIs i thought of could be gattling gun, magazine, silencer, energy thrower (like a flame thrower), making 3 doses of powder for the price of one, etc.
However, I am unsure, since Deeds are the Gunslinger's bread and butter, not innovations (as discoveries are for alchemists) if I should actually have a few grand innovations to choose from, or just simplify the feature to something like the following.
Grand Innovation: At 20th level, the gunslinger develops a grand innovation, and immediately gains three normal innovations, representing a truly innovative firearm breakthrough of significant import.
Ideas?
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Mmh... level 20 innovation should just be = a big one. Capstone abilities are made to be a bit over-the-top, after all, and almost no one gets there in a normal game.
Use other classes to see what you could do, you're looking for some archetyps like weapon master, sniper, gun kata, pistoleer, machine-gunner...
Or put on a great deed/fighter capstone, if you are more looking at "innovations" as a bonus, and not as the skeleton of the class which the deeds seem to symbolize better. I think the gunslinger maybe shouldn't have an innovation capstone, but a more fighting-oriented ability. :)
I like this. But thinking about it, would the blunderbuss be usable as part of an attack with the weapon (+14/+9 Pickle pistol/+3 Blunderbuss), a weapon in itself only (+8/+3 Blunderbuss), or an off-hand weapon without being litteraly off-hand (ideal for a musket, allowing for some kind of TWF +14/+9/+4 Musket/+14/+9 Blunderbuss)?
And with the pickle, it essentially allows to shoot at least twice in the same round, since there are two barrels and that the first one can deal damages several times.
Hmmm. I don't think so. It's not a double weapon, just can fire multiple times before reloading. You choose which barrel to fire from. If you have iterative attacks, you can fire the rifled barrel, then the blunderbuss, but it doesn't give you the ability to use each barrel as a single weapon in a TWF build.
Also, doesn't the pickle shot take a full-round action to use?
For the innovation problem, I guess if Elghinn is going this way and takes into account the fact that blunderbuss will already be in the official rules, restate that the deeds needing "the shotgun upgrade" will instead "need at least one blunderbuss barrel". So, the shotgun innovation can become "with one hour of work, change any of your weapon barrel for a blunderbuss one". The problem of permanent upgrades is that they need to be better than the previous weapon, when the innovations as written in 1.3 doesn't follow this logic. And if you change your pistol for a mini-blunderbuss, you don't get a better weapon, just another one, like going from a long sword with a 1,5 feet range to another one that deals more damage but only usable in close quarter - so if you don't get any kind of real advantage from this, you should be able to use the previous design at any time. This would not be the case is the quarrel increased your range, though.
See, we disagree on this one. You make the choice to have a weapon that is accurate over long distances but (usually) can only attack one person at a time, or one that can ONLY be used right up close and personal, but can attack in a spread. That kind of choice should be permanent. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and you have to make the choice of which to take.
I honestly think the innovations should only be able to be changed when you gain a level. The choices should be permanent...
Hey fellow Gunslingers, another searching question. I need some advice on a "Grand Innovation" feature, based upon the Alchemist's Grand Discovery. So far it reads:
Grand Innovation: At 20th level, the gunslinger develops a grand innovation. She immediately learns two normal innovations, but also learns a third innovation chosen from the list below, representing a truly innovative firearm breakthrough of significant import. For many gunslingers, the promise of one of these grand innovations is the primary goal of their experimental craft and hard work.
Some GIs i thought of could be gattling gun, magazine, silencer, energy thrower (like a flame thrower), making 3 doses of powder for the price of one, etc.
However, I am unsure, since Deeds are the Gunslinger's bread and butter, not innovations (as discoveries are for alchemists) if I should actually have a few grand innovations to choose from, or just simplify the feature to something like the following.
Grand Innovation: At 20th level, the gunslinger develops a grand innovation, and immediately gains three normal innovations, representing a truly innovative firearm breakthrough of significant import.
Ideas?
I suggested in my full review that at level 18, the gunslinger should just be able to add as many innovations as they want onto any gun that they have (of course, making them unusable by anyone else). Leave the capstone the way it was in 1.3, minus the temporary HP thing. It fits as a capstone.
Don't use the innovations as a capstone. Think of the core fighter. Armor training caps at level 18 with Armor Mastery. The capstone is based on Weapon Training. What I suggested in my review keeps it close to the class it's based on. Replace armor training/mastery with innovations, and the weapon training/master with the firearm training/mastery. Keep it simple.
The Grand Innovation isn't a capstone, it's gained at 19th level. I'd like to give the gunslinger something good for her last innovation gain. Perhaps I'll give her Innovation Mastery, and allows her to pick 3 new innovations which she can develop and add to her firearms.
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Hmmm. I don't think so. It's not a double weapon, just can fire multiple times before reloading. You choose which barrel to fire from. If you have iterative attacks, you can fire the rifled barrel, then the blunderbuss, but it doesn't give you the ability to use each barrel as a single weapon in a TWF build.
Also, doesn't the pickle shot take a full-round action to use?
Gosh, yes, I forgot about this. Though the pickle shot as written needs a full-round -attack- since it's especially made to allow them, so the gunslinger can still take one 5 foot-step.
I guess we'll need to see what other kinds of barrels we could have, since having a blunderbuss barrel that can shoot only once per round when you could do two attacks with a pistol has better be good enough...See, we disagree on this one. You make the choice to have a weapon that is accurate over long distances but (usually) can only attack one person at a time, or one that can ONLY be used right up close and personal, but can attack in a spread.
Yes, but this should be an equipment choice, with real advantages or disadvantages, not a class feature. You don't ask the fighter at level 4 if his shortsword should definitevely become piercing and with a 18-20 critical range, unable to wield two-handed, you just buy a rapier level 1. The shotgun innovation as written in 1.3 didn't allow spread, except if you took the deeds. But I can understand why it should be a definitive choice in this case, since deeds where meant to stack and allow for a really different kind of play, which should almost be a definitive choice and a risk to take. If there are no deeds or mechanisms, we must as well make this a level 1 capacity to definitively change the gun the gunslinger gets for free.
Perhaps I'll give her Innovation Mastery, and allows her to pick 3 new innovations which she can develop and add to her firearms.
Three is maybe too much, especially when I guess there are feats in this build to take an additional innovation. If the gunslinger takes the feat at lvl 19, it's 4 innovations at once, hope you did a lot of them !
A high-level one to choose between two or three like Gatling/Rocket/Electromagnetic or "choose two lower levels innovations" could do the trick, though I can't say since I don't know what their power looks like for now. :)Don't forget when making innovations that in the official gunslinger, bullets will hit touch AC without being touch attack, and furthermore, will not take DR into account !
Gosh, yes, I forgot about this. Though the pickle shot as written needs a full-round -attack- since it's especially made to allow them, so the gunslinger can still take one 5 foot-step.
I guess we'll need to see what other kinds of barrels we could have, since having a blunderbuss barrel that can shoot only once per round when you could do two attacks with a pistol has better be good enough...
Who says it can only be once? Combined with the revolver/repeater innovation, you can have a multi-shot blunderbuss.
Yes, but this should be an equipment choice, with real advantages or disadvantages, not a class feature. You don't ask the fighter at level 4 if his shortsword should definitevely become piercing and with a 18-20 critical range, unable to wield two-handed, you just buy a rapier level 1. The shotgun innovation as written in 1.3 didn't allow spread, except if you took the deeds. But I can understand why it should be a definitive choice in this case, since deeds where meant to stack and allow for a really different kind of play, which should almost be a definitive choice and a risk to take. If there are no deeds or mechanisms, we must as well make this a level 1 capacity to definitively change the gun the gunslinger gets for free.
Like I said before, the blunderbuss/scattergun/shotgun/whatever you want to call it innovation (as well as the corresponding pathfinder material) should be a spread, not just a short-range, high-damage change.
Bringing your fighter example again, you also don't allow the fighter to change the capabilities of his weapon every level, or allow him to upgrade it FOR FREE every four levels.
Perhaps I'll give her Innovation Mastery, and allows her to pick 3 new innovations which she can develop and add to her firearms.Three is maybe too much, especially when I guess there are feats in this build to take an...
I still have to suggest that innovations not be a choice, and rather it be how many innovations you can put on your guns. As it stands, you're stuck with the same innovations on all your guns. This leads to people choosing the ones that work together as is best for most situations, and there won't be many different builds.
If, like I suggested, you had the whole list to choose from, but were limited on how many you could put on any one gun (one at 3rd level, 2 at lvl 7, 3 at lvl 11, and 4 at lvl 15), a gunslinger could have different guns for different situations, if she bought (or built) a few extras. Like she has the single shot, high damage sniper rifle, the two six shooters, and maybe a double barreled blunderbuss, just in case. This allows for a lot more customization.
19th level is where Innovation Mastery should be, I said 18th earlier, my bad.
I recommended just being able to add as many innovations as one likes before, but I think I like what you're proposing here. Perhaps you could get one more innovation per gun (making it a total of 5, or 6 with Extra Innovation), and can choose to add these awesome innovations to the guns. I'd say that each gun can only have one of these Master Innovations, but I'd still prod towards being able to have different ones on different guns...