The big thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are going to be new rogue talents in UltCom that we have yet to see. Why do you think only the ninja gets any of the ninja talents?+1
Unfortunately that is not the way it is presented in the playtest document. Yes the Ninja can take any rogue talent...
"Rogue Talent: The ninja can select a rogue talent in place of a ninja trick. The ninja cannot select a rogue talent that has the same name as a ninja trick."
However things like
I personally don't begrudge the Ninja archetype a few Ki based talents that are more magical/mystical, although looking ahead I could see some issues. However that doesn't account for a number of more genetic roguish talents that are currently only listed as Ninja Tricks.
Further there is a redundant print issue. If say that Deadly Range is also a rogue talent that is in UC why should it be printed twice? I will piont out that the "ninja" flavored support talents could have been set aside in the play test the same way as the gun rules are.
And it was..bu on top of being distinct, lets rename rogue talents to ninja tricks and make them better then rogue talents and not allow those non Asian rogues to ever have them..or hell Asian rogue..you can't be a cool as the Ninja!
You see how silly that is? Ninja trikes are rogue talents but better rogue talents rogues can't have, because they are not as cool...yet Ninja can have rogue talents.
This is like talking to bricks.
Ninja's are not rogues!!!
The things they do in legend and myth, are not done by people outside of those myths, not even by rogues and thugs in asia, unless they where trained by Ninja.
Many of the ninja tricks are UNIQUELY elements of Ninja related myth and legend. So crying because your rogue can do it is as silly as crying because your rogue cant cast magic spells.
Ninja's are not rogues!!!
Umm yes they are. They are a rogue archetype[alt class whatever} but yeah they are rogues. Are you even looking at what I am?
They are the rogue, switched out rogue weapons and a grand total of six class ablitys. Ninja strike are just rogue talents so the not as cool parent class can not have em.
Again, forest and trees man.
Nobody...Nobody wnts to try to defend the samurai
for the first 2 levels it is just a caviler
and remember talking about the gunslinger
we will never come to a agreement on the ninja, so i really want to know what people think of the samurai
Seeker, not all the Ninja Tricks are appropriate for other rogues thematically. We can discuss if the limitation of use presented by the Ki points is balanced in the ninja topic. I personal, as I've said, have no issue with a Ninja Archtype having a handful of talents/abilities that help the Ninja match more with mythology then history.
Zombieneighbours, what I have difficulty with are the non-Ki/magic talents that could really be generic rogue talents to build non-mystical variants of ninjas, using other archetypes even.
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Because the fiction that surounds Ninja is different from that which surrounds western rogue figures. Because thematically they are different, just like their is a thematic difference between a random folk hero with a sword(fighter) and a monastic knight(paladin). Because refecting thematic difference is the entire point of classes.And while I hate classes, if we must have them, i want lots, because it broadens the range of themes I can play and use as NPCs.
This is one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on the boards. A fighter can be a mercenary, a knight, a samurai, a swashbuckler etc.
Simularly, a Rogue can be a pickpocket, a spy, a ninja, and a Swashbuckler. If you want to legenday 'mystical' Ninja stuff, dip in another class.
To illustrate my point, look at my first PFS Society Character. The fiction around her is that of Bushi and Shinto Shrine Maiden. Yet she is a Paladin with a dip in Ranger.
Now, go write a rogue, make her home country Minkai, give her a history that includes a Ninja clan, and it's done. Crunch is crunch. Fluff is what you make it. If you need crunch as a crutch, I define that as a blind spot of an individual player.....and nothing more.
Well the sammy is not as much an offender as the ninja. He as well only changes six ability, same as the ninja but unlike the ninja he does not bar the parent class from his orders. He did not try to be what he is not, it dos not bar others of his class from taking his class "talent" based off they are not as cool as he is. To me everything the Ninja did wrong the samurai did right.
He needs some work, but I like it. He is just an archetype however. I do await more Asian orders for cavilers, those will be fun.
And it was..bu on top of being distinct, lets rename rogue talents to ninja tricks and make them better then rogue talents and not allow those non Asian rogues to ever have them..or hell Asian rogue..you can't be a cool as the Ninja!
You see how silly that is? Ninja trikes are rogue talents but better rogue talents rogues can't have, because they are not as cool...yet Ninja can have rogue talents.
This is like talking to bricks.
Ninja's are not rogues!!!
The things they do in legend and myth, are not done by people outside of those myths, not even by rogues and thugs in asia, unless they where trained by Ninja.
Many of the ninja tricks are UNIQUELY elements of Ninja related myth and legend. So crying because your rogue can do it is as silly as crying because your rogue cant cast magic spells.
Here is the issue, first off rogue has already stolen a bunch of the ninjas place in the game (with sneak attack, stealth, etc). Secondly, if you make the ninja an alternate class (or archetype) which is what Paizo is going to do, the only way to make this work is to balance the ninja against rogue. I have been stating up versions of the ninja to try this weekend and I keep looking at it and going why would I ever play a rogue over a ninja. (statistically speaking, as opposed to for roleplaying purposes)
What really needs to be done is tweak or remove the ki pool and tweak some of the ninja tricks and we have what I think is a good option for a ninja alternate class. For example, a ninja with the Assassinate master trick is a better assassin then the assassin.
What I mean, which does not seem to be getting across, is that the Ninja introduced new talents into the game. Since UC has not come out yet, there is no reason to believe that the Rogue is not able to take any of them. But since this is a play test of the Ninja, NOT the Rogue, and the talents are subject to change, why should Paizo tell you which ones they have already given to the Rogue? This play test is not for the Rogue, in general or specifically. It is for the Ninja, evaluating it and seeing what is broken, weak, or just right.
If there are talents the Ninja has you want a Rogue to have access to, let Rogues use them. I swear no one is going to break down your door and arrest you.
How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.
Seeker, not all the Ninja Tricks are appropriate for other rogues thematically. We can discuss if the limitation of use presented by the Ki points is balanced in the ninja topic. I personal, as I've said, have no issue with a Ninja Archtype having a handful of talents/abilities that help the Ninja match more with mythology then history.
Yes I know not all of em work, many or most could be reworked to not need the ki pool. But honestly having two types a talents called two different things that do more or less the same thing is silly.
It is like having different rage powers for every barb archetype. Rework em and save the space. Hell most of the ki pool ones can be changed to 1/day. 1/day per point of wis or 1/day per 3 rogue levels or something and work just as well.
I am just not seeing why this need to be more complex and elitist then it has to be.
What I mean, which does not seem to be getting across, is that the Ninja introduced new talents into the game. Since UC has not come out yet, there is no reason to believe that the Rogue is not able to take any of them. But since this is a play test of the Ninja, NOT the Rogue, and the talents are subject to change, why should Paizo tell you which ones they have already given to the Rogue? This play test is not for the Rogue, in general or specifically. It is for the Ninja, evaluating it and seeing what is broken, weak, or just right.
If there are talents the Ninja has you want a Rogue to have access to, let Rogues use them. I swear no one is going to break down your door and arrest you.
The one tricky part with this is some of the ninja tricks require ki points, which puts them in a weird place. Hmmm so if you multiclass monk/ninja how big is you ki pool.
How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.
Ninja is only an alternate class for Rogue.
Nobody...Nobody wnts to try to defend the samurai
for the first 2 levels it is just a caviler
and remember talking about the gunslinger
we will never come to a agreement on the ninja, so i really want to know what people think of the samurai
The samurai is definatly an archetype, no real question. Although I still say you could have multiple class with the same archetype name because of the variations even in what people perceive the "archetype" to be.
The Gunslinger is confused. It is a Dex Fighter with Grit that also uses a gun. They could really be split up. With the Girt fighter being a major overhaul of the generic fighter and a Gunner archetype the same as the various weapon style archetype fighters already in the APG.
I do not dislike it. However, I am tired of it is Asian so it must be better. Those talents should not be limited to just a ninja. Are all Asians Ninja's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get any Asian flavor or abilities, you can't be an Asian pick pocket with any Asian inspired talents. No you MUST be a ninja or no Asian talents for you.
Seeker, you're not allowed to make these comments until the book is out. To me it is clear as daylight that the rogues will get a "pick a ninja trick" talent, the same way that ninjas get the "pick a rogue talent" trick. Do you think they'll publish a whole book with 60 archetypes that does not feature new rage powers and rogue talents?
The one tricky part with this is some of the ninja tricks require ki points, which puts them in a weird place. Hmmm so if you multiclass monk/ninja how big is you ki pool.What I mean, which does not seem to be getting across, is that the Ninja introduced new talents into the game. Since UC has not come out yet, there is no reason to believe that the Rogue is not able to take any of them. But since this is a play test of the Ninja, NOT the Rogue, and the talents are subject to change, why should Paizo tell you which ones they have already given to the Rogue? This play test is not for the Rogue, in general or specifically. It is for the Ninja, evaluating it and seeing what is broken, weak, or just right.
If there are talents the Ninja has you want a Rogue to have access to, let Rogues use them. I swear no one is going to break down your door and arrest you.
Not as big as you think
Cha Mod (ninja ki runs of cha)+ Wis mod + 1/2 ninja lv + 1/2 monk lvso...it would be huge if you just dumped every other stat
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I suspect the deviding line will be that Alternate classes will have archetypes which can be applied to them, but not to their parent class, and their parent class will have Archetypes that can be allied to them, but not to the NinjaSo you wont be a Ninja, you'll be a mist valley school ninja.
No, this is an organization, NOT an Archtype. In fact Mist Valley Ninjas are one of those things that must be avoided. To make my point I'll point to a "western" Rogue who is very Ninja like (only a bit flashier), James Bond:
James Bond is a member of Ninja clan (MI6) which serves its Lord (Her Majesty's Government).
He is an infiltrator, spy, saboteur and if needed, an assassin, just like a Ninja.
He uses tools and exotic weapons, very much like a ninja.
If Bond were in Feudal Japan, peasants would think he had supernatural powers, just like they thought Ninjas did.
He is a very capable fighter, but not the top of the line in a face to face fight. He manages through being cagy, getting in cheap shots (sneak attacks), just like a Ninja.
James Bond has a wide array of skills, just like a Ninja.
Point is James Bond is a Rogue with a modern flavor. Ninja is a Rogue with a Japanese flavor. That is all they are, get over it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd point out that the arcane duelist creator offered to mail an 'Arcane Duelist spell list'. (cant' find the post sorry) Would that have made the arcane duelist an 'alternate class'
Vic's already said that Paizo's committed to the 'alternate class' termanology, but that the ninja and samurai (and maybe Gunslinger) are all subject to becoming alternate classes.
I prefer the term 'advanced archtype' and posted my position here. Clearly I can't change Paizo's direction, but I will use advanced archtype if I make such and post it on the web.
We've already seen the confusion it can cause, as it stands an 'alternate class' is a 'base class' that follows all the rules for base classes, except for multiclassing. The number of threads that pop up seem to show that.
Let's look at some of the (non-ki) ninja tricks.
bleed attack = bleed attack
Smoke bombs. Well, to use a recent example, The Cape isn't a ninja, and this isn't really a 'pure ninja' trick, yet the rogue can't use it. Edit, and the Great Kosmo(s) have been using it long before.
Poison bomb. See Smoke bomb.
Choking Bomb. This could be replicated by an an advanced trick allowing stinking cloud
Deadly Range. The crossbow assassin is a tried and true western trope.
Feather Fall. Already exists as a rogue talent (major magic)
Hidden Weapons. Because there's never been a rogue in history that didn't have a knack for hiding things. (Was Houdini a ninja?) Or you can take the Assassin class and lose skill points and class abilities for this.
Rogue talent. So there's no rogue trick the ninja can't have.
Pressure points. If only there was a western art of pressure points and joints in combat. Oh, wait...
Slow metabolism because western rogues knew nothing about altering one's metabolism.
Slow reactions = slow reactions.
Sudden Disguise = Major magic again.
Undetected Sabotage. Because only a ninja can disguise their attempts better than anyone else.
Vanishing Trick. See The Cape above, and the Batman and Zorro and...
Ventriloquism. See Major Magic, also is Jeff Dunham a ninja?
Wall Climber. Because free climbing never existed before Marco Polo brought it back from China.
Weapon Training = Weapon Training
All of these are ninja only talents. There's not a single rogue talent the ninja can't take. It doesn't work the other way. All of these should be rogue talents.
Class abilities
Light Steps. So every Wuixa figher has ranks in Ninja?
Advanced Talents:
Assassinate: Don't worry Mr Rogue, you can take a prestige class that gives you this ability. But because you're gaijin it takes you three times as long, you lose skill points have to be evil, and shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die.
Blinding Bombs: See other bombs above.
Master Disguise: Because only Ninja are experts in disguise.
Ghost Step: Because no western rogue had a reputation of 'walls cannot hold me'
Invisible Blade: Ok, so now we're better than the Shadowdancer.
See the unseen: Again, a more powerful version of major magic would cover this.
Shadow Split: Again, Major Magic, or an improved version would cover this
Unbound Steps: Again, I didn't ever Wuixa fighter was a ninja.
Hidden Master: So the rogue finally gets a death attack (10 levels behind the ninja) a paralyzing attack (where a lot of the foes are immune to paralysis) and a save. Meanwhile, the Ninja gets unbeatable invisibility, and can put a -10 penalty on a target's primary stat.
So yeah, the ninja gets all new toys... because he's a ninja. He gets better toys... because he's a ninja.
Seeker, you're not allowed to make these comments until the book is out.
Humm, Playtest and feedback. I see the ninja they have shown going just where I said. It needs fixed. There is zero need other then "Ninja must be cooler} to have two sets of rogue talents.
Asian rogue talents/non Asian rogue talents. This is what the ninja has brought us. And I object to it.
I do not object to the ninja being an archetype {like it is} but the Ninja trick/rogue talent wall has to go.
Ninja is only an alternate class for Rogue.How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.
In your game, at your table.
In my games, GM or PC, Ninja and Samurai clash in outlook so I would have a problem with their multiclassing.I'm going to bail on this conversation because the 'Asian' comments may get it locked.
Again, an alternate is only an alternate if it's RAW.
A long line of stuff that pretty much shows Tthe ninja gets all new toys... because he's a ninja. He gets better toys... because he's a ninja.
Well said man, well said.
Ninja is only an alternate class for Rogue.How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.In your game, at your table.
In my games, GM or PC, Ninja and Samurai clash in outlook so I would have a problem with their multiclassing.
I'm going to bail on this conversation because the 'Asian' comments may get it locked.
Again, an alternate is only an alternate if it's RAW.
Well actually by RAW the ninja is an alternate class of rogue.
UC Playtest page 8 under the Ninja Role.
"The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class."
Ninja is only an alternate class for Rogue.How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.In your game, at your table.
In my games, GM or PC, Ninja and Samurai clash in outlook so I would have a problem with their multiclassing.
I'm going to bail on this conversation because the 'Asian' comments may get it locked.
Again, an alternate is only an alternate if it's RAW.Well actually by RAW the ninja is an alternate class of rogue.
UC Playtest page 8 under the Ninja Role.
"The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class."
Justin wins the argument!
Justin gets 500XP!Justin saves a puppy!
Because the fiction that surounds Ninja is different from that which surrounds western rogue figures. Because thematically they are different, just like their is a thematic difference between a random folk hero with a sword(fighter) and a monastic knight(paladin). Because refecting thematic difference is the entire point of classes.And while I hate classes, if we must have them, i want lots, because it broadens the range of themes I can play and use as NPCs.
This is one of the weakest arguments I've ever seen on the boards. A fighter can be a mercenary, a knight, a samurai, a swashbuckler etc.
Simularly, a Rogue can be a pickpocket, a spy, a ninja, and a Swashbuckler. If you want to legenday 'mystical' Ninja stuff, dip in another class.
To illustrate my point, look at my first PFS Society Character. The fiction around her is that of Bushi and Shinto Shrine Maiden. Yet she is a Paladin with a dip in Ranger.
Now, go write a rogue, make her home country Minkai, give her a history that includes a Ninja clan, and it's done. Crunch is crunch. Fluff is what you make it. If you need crunch as a crutch, I define that as a blind spot of an individual player.....and nothing more.
Fluff is not what you make it. Sure, just like you could make a rogue call it a ninja, ect.
I can make a commoner, and call him Thadius Vex, I can write him a the most amazing backstory in all the world, in which he is the worlds most powerful wizard. And you know what? When i get to the table, there will be a disconnect between my characters background and my character.
Mechanics, character background and setting are intimately linked.
I can make a fighter and call him a samurai and say that he is able to shrug of mortal blows thanks to his commitment to his lord and his sense of honour, but if he does not have be mechanics backing it, it does not happen.
Rogues and ninja are thematically different. As such they should be mechanically different to reflect that they are different ideas.
If your going to have classes, you have to either make them so flexible as to effectively not be classes anymore, make so many of them that they cause class bloat, or accept there are simply some concepts you cannot play.
Well actually by RAW the ninja is an alternate class of rogue.
UC Playtest page 8 under the Ninja Role.
"The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class."
And, to add to it, read the top of page 2.
I suspect the deviding line will be that Alternate classes will have archetypes which can be applied to them, but not to their parent class, and their parent class will have Archetypes that can be allied to them, but not to the NinjaSo you wont be a Ninja, you'll be a mist valley school ninja.
No, this is an organization, NOT an Archtype. In fact Mist Valley Ninjas are one of those things that must be avoided. To make my point I'll point to a "western" Rogue who is very Ninja like (only a bit flashier), James Bond:
James Bond is a member of Ninja clan (MI6) which serves its Lord (Her Majesty's Government).
He is an infiltrator, spy, saboteur and if needed, an assassin, just like a Ninja.
He uses tools and exotic weapons, very much like a ninja.
If Bond were in Feudal Japan, peasants would think he had supernatural powers, just like they thought Ninjas did.
He is a very capable fighter, but not the top of the line in a face to face fight. He manages through being cagy, getting in cheap shots (sneak attacks), just like a Ninja.
James Bond has a wide array of skills, just like a Ninja.Point is James Bond is a Rogue with a modern flavor. Ninja is a Rogue with a Japanese flavor. That is all they are, get over it.
Really hu? tell that to the Aldori Swordlord, Dawn Flower Dervish, the Rondelero Duelist, Egorian Academy Infernal Binder, mage of the veil and Arcanamirium Crafter.
And it was..bu on top of being distinct, lets rename rogue talents to ninja tricks and make them better then rogue talents and not allow those non Asian rogues to ever have them..or hell Asian rogue..you can't be a cool as the Ninja!
You see how silly that is? Ninja trikes are rogue talents but better rogue talents rogues can't have, because they are not as cool...yet Ninja can have rogue talents.
This is like talking to bricks.
Ninja's are not rogues!!!
The things they do in legend and myth, are not done by people outside of those myths, not even by rogues and thugs in asia, unless they where trained by Ninja.
Many of the ninja tricks are UNIQUELY elements of Ninja related myth and legend. So crying because your rogue can do it is as silly as crying because your rogue cant cast magic spells.
This seems a bit hypocritical considering your earlier rant that just because one person doesn't like Asian inspired stuff, nobody should...
Allow me to borrow a music analogy.
People like Seeker and I are saying that you can make rock music with the same 8 notes you make classical music with. Others, such as Zombie, are saying, no, rock music is so different! We need a different music system! So we came up with 2 extra notes - we have decimalized rock! Just because you don't like rock doesn't mean you just prevent us from using it!
Then Seeker says, wow, cool, let's try using decimalized music to make classical! And you say, no, classical isn't the same as rock! Only rock can be decimalized!
See the problem here?
Ninja is only an alternate class for Rogue.How you can multiclass should be common sense.
Ninja is an alternate class for Rogue and Monk, because it uses chi.
Monk is an alternate class for fighter, ect.
You can just say an alternate class is RAW. Ninja is not alternate by RAW.In your game, at your table.
In my games, GM or PC, Ninja and Samurai clash in outlook so I would have a problem with their multiclassing.
I'm going to bail on this conversation because the 'Asian' comments may get it locked.
Again, an alternate is only an alternate if it's RAW.Well actually by RAW the ninja is an alternate class of rogue.
UC Playtest page 8 under the Ninja Role.
"The ninja is an alternate class for the rogue core class."
Justin wins the argument!
Justin gets 500XP!
Justin saves a puppy!
Not to say you have to follow it just that if Paizo is going that way it is creating a weird disconnect here between rogue talents and ninja tricks, etc.
Seeker, not all the Ninja Tricks are appropriate for other rogues thematically.could you be more specific ? How can you say that some tricks aren't inappropriate to fit thematically my rogue ?
If you speak about balance issue, I can understand you. But I don't understand how you can say that an ability isn't appropriate thematically, except if you know every rogue concept in the world.
In the APG, there are some magic-like rage powers for the barbarian. the APG doesn't create subclass or the like: if the power is thematically appropriate for your barbarian, you take it, if it isn't, you don't. I don't think anybody needs a "thematically-appropriate-police" to do this.
Flurry of Stars for a start, Ki Charge another. Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe. I can't recall any figure who ws noted for spamming darts or daggers the ninjas are stereotyped to do. Accuracy tends to be the more common element.
Of course you have theme-police. They are called classes. Why can't my fighter have the Cavaliers nice things? Why are rage powers limited to the barbarian (for now)?
Granted there are very few things unique to a Ninja that a Rogue should not also do, however as a nod to built up mythology (and this will make seeker splutter) and to acknowledged the "ninja is a class" constancy it does need some outright magical and flashy abilities you do not find the vast majority of rogue types.
If arbitary thematic decvision is an issue then your likely going to have even more problems with archetypes in the future. Organization and setting spesific varaints already exist and we wi be seeing more of them.
To get to the heart of the issue the Ninja as presented is not what it should be. If it us an archetype it goes to far for a generic supplement. If it is an Alt-Class it doesnt to a good job setting itself up as a magical/mystical rogue variant ("Asian" hyperbolely be dammed). It is stuck and confused.
I was going to argue the point about archetypes for Alt-class not being a good idea, however I'll back track on that and say [b]if Alt classes can maintain a more overall generic nature, the archetypes can be used to fill in more detailed mechanical tweaks for flavor.
Like the Gunslinger could be broken down, so too can the Ninja be broke into a Supernatural/Magical rogue Alt-class with a Ninja archetype.
Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe.Merisiel.
No she just has lots of daggers because she can't be bothered to pick them up after the battle is done. :P
Although it would be interesting to see when multiple dagger throwing at one time began to enter into depictions of such character styles. I can also think of Maytag from flipsidecomics.com pulled out a multi-dagger trick.
Eh throwing multipule daggers or knives at once is kinda classic knife fighter trope. It is not something unique to ninjas.
Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe.Merisiel.
Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?
Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?
It is all the same..except ya know ones MUST be better then the other to make the Asian elitist happy.
Raw talent, well trained skill,insight, luck or ki power. It works the same. You are using flavor and fluff to try and make mechanics. The same trap paizo has fallen into.
Well if you want to multiclass a Ninja as a Rogue then you are going against RAW and it's homebrew.
Well if you want to multiclass a Ninja as a Rogue then you are going against RAW and it's homebrew.
Umm what? Who has talked about that? You can't take a class twice.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Flurry of Stars for a start, Ki Charge another. Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe. I can't recall any figure who ws noted for spamming darts or daggers the ninjas are stereotyped to do. Accuracy tends to be the more common element.
Off the top of my head?
Bullseye
Arsenal
Gambit
Longshot
'sterotypical gambler card thrower'
Mersiel
Jaraxel
Not a ninja among them.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?What's the difference ?
Hunter x hunter doesn't use Ki, it use Nen. Should we entirely rewrite the class for this setting, changing the word "ki" with "nen" ?
I think a better game design is to make a generic power available to any rogue, and to adapt the fluff depending of the power source (be it skill, ki, nen or instinct).
Stephane,
Did you see my take on the ninja archtype here? The archtype gives up some skill points for a built in ki pool, but there are two feats I added to give any class a ki pool. A lot of the ninja tricks that use ki get one shot w/o ki, so the rogue could benefit, but not as much as the archtype itself. Curious your thoughts on that.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe.Merisiel.
Apparently since she's not 'asian' she gets to do it the old fashioned way.
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Really hu? tell that to the Aldori Swordlord, Dawn Flower Dervish, the Rondelero Duelist, Egorian Academy Infernal Binder, mage of the veil and Arcanamirium Crafter.
They exist on paper, which make me mourn the poor trees. I play in a weekly home game and play PFS 1-2 times a week where I hear about other home games. I am yet to see any of those played. In fact, I can only remember only one of those even considered for play. Until now I'm not sure I've even heard of most of them mentioned anywhere.
In the meantime, next to my Naginata (glaive) wielding 'Samurai-ko' Paladin (L5R flavored), I've seen swashbucklers, doom prophetesses, elementalists, Academics who defined their club as a big heavy book, Aristocrats without a single level in the NPC class, good mothers (to her 'child' eidolon), and barbarians who were simply street toughs. All of these were made with base classes and usually without multiclassing.
This is called roleplaying at its best, with people staying 'in character' and having lots of fun and creating images of who their character is merely with fluff, not with the greatest and coolest new 'ki' mechanic. To me, that's what it's all about.
There is clearly no need for Ninja and Samurai classes. In fact, if 'class creap' becomes typical of Paizo products, there very well might be a backlash by players, hurting future sales of the Pathfinder line. Archtypes, perhaps? Classes, no.
Apparently since she's not 'asian' she gets to do it the old fashioned way.Does merisiel use Ki to throw a cloud of knives? or does she rather use skill to throw several knifes?Find me an existing fictional stereotype that indulged in gratuitous volumes of thrown projectiles in short timeframe.Merisiel.
Well no.
She could use Ki. Ninjas do not have to be asian. She could for instance be a fate bound assassin using mystical techniques inspired by the thanatosic traditions of indea, greece and ancient celtic myth.
Or she could be a hassassin getting of her head on psychoactive drugs before going and killing the enemies of the faith, or any one of the other such quassimystical assassin/spy order from earth history/myth, or and fantasy group all its own such as the Mages of the Veil.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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She could use Ki. Ninjas do not have to be asian. She could for instance be a fate bound assassin using mystical techniques inspired by the thanatosic traditions of indea, greece and ancient celtic myth.
Or she could be a hassassin getting of her head on psychoactive drugs before going and killing the enemies of the faith, or any one of the other such quassimystical assassin/spy order from earth history/myth, or and fantasy group all its own such as the Mages of the Veil.
Or they could make the 'ninja talent' a rogue talent.
As written the samurai archetype can use normal caviler orders. And they can use his. Just like every other class that share "talent" features
Only the ninja does not do this, so yeah it sticks out only to be cooler then you for no other reason.
Can you give me one reason other then "But a ninja" why they should not be rogue talents? Many of them are classic ablites assorted with other things then just ninja's.
Most of the best ninja tricks require the burning of a Ki point.
A mechanical choke point put placed there to make sure it only works for the ninja is not a good reason.Every one of those can be made to work without the ki pool, everyone. Most mimic rogue talents anyhow.
So the ninja can take one rogue talent.
Good point, and easy to miss. Well they can take one rogue talent and one advanced rogue talent (which must be an advanced talent and can't be a normal talent).
However it still leaves a bit of a mess longterm that designers will need to watch for. Here is another downside to not just using rogue talents. Any new talents in future products will need to be evaluated for the ninja as well and if they should also be selectable as a Ninja Trick.