I was thinking about it today, and I realized that these honestly could have been done as archetypes.
I understand using an alternate class for the antipaladin - it is similar enough not to be a full new base class, but also isn't just a version of the original with a few different tricks.
But that's pretty much what the ultimate combat classes are. The ninja and samurai are essentially a slightly different version of the base class. The gunslinger has more mechanical differences than a fighter archetype would, but does it really need them? Honestly, I could simply see swapping heavy armor for exotic weapon proficiency in firearms, and then putting most of the deeds under the grit system as replacements for weapon/armor training.
I may be missing something. But to me, it feels like Paizo is trying to have base class creep (bcc) without openly admitting it. (I think by the end, D&D3.5 had over 50 base classes, many of which were simply more specific versions of other base classes.)
I applauded when Paizo sidestepped bcc and prestige class deluge, yet still allowed for variety, with archetypes. I realize Ultimate Combat will have those, too... but these three classes seem like prime candidates for archetypes themselves and I can't help but wonder what the future will hold.
What was not communicated well visually is these really are archetypes. The problem is mostly in presentation. If only the class ability column was presented with stronger upfront language as to which base class it is dependent on, I think it would be less of an issue.
There are other problems with them but that's a discussion for a different thread.
Also all the archetypes could be presented in just the same way as these 3.
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What was not communicated well visually is these really are archetypes. The problem is mostly in presentation. If only the class ability column was presented with stronger upfront language as to which base class it is dependent on, I think it would be less of an issue.
There are other problems with them but that's a discussion for a different thread.
Also all the archetypes could be presented in just the same way as these 3.
I must agree that if these are alternate classes (which they are) it needs to be noted perhaps right after the class name i.e. Ninja(Rogue)
I think the difference between an archetype and an alternate class is a tough line to see, but it is there. Alternate classes introduce new rules mechanics that take longer to describe than the short descriptions an archetype uses. Grit/deeds would be really hard to explain outside of a full class description. The ninja and samurai are essentially inflated archetypes, though, now that I look at them. The new abilities are not so different as to require log, detailed descriptions.
That still leaves us with the question of why the gunslinger wasn't just made an archetype. I mean, compare to existing ones:
Archer - fighter that focuses on bows.
Crossbowman - fighter that focuses on crossbows.
Free Hand Fighter - fighter that focuses on 1-handed weapons and no shield.
Mobile Fighter - fighter that focuses on maneuverability.
Phalanx Soldier - fighter that focuses on shields and polearms.
Polearm Master - fighter that focuses on polearms.
Roughrider - fighter that focuses on mounted combat.
Savage Warrior - fighter that focuses on natural weapons.
Shielded Fighter - fighter that focuses on combat with shields.
Two-Handed Fighter - fighter that focuses on two-handed weapons.
Two-Weapon Warrior - fighter that focuses on dual wielding.
Weapon Master - fighter that focuses on a single kind of weapon.
...
Gunslinger - fighter that focuses on firearms. Do we really need the whole grit system? Are these fighters that much more special than the others?
Lest anyone think I'm just whining pointlessly, I want to assure everyone that I think Paizo has a talented staff. But I see this as a matter of opportunity costs. What could they have come up with in the same time if they weren't working on the grit/deeds system? What is going to be cut for space during editing that would have had room if these class descriptions were the shorter archetype ones? I have seen several editors in the industry, not just at Paizo, lament over the good stuff they had to remove for space. Well, if they had kept these as archetypes, there would have been a little more space to use.
Edit: To be fair, the book hasn't been printed yet. There's still time! :D And really, why did this get moved? It is specifically about the Ultimate Combat playtest classes...
Why are Ninja and Samurai in Ultimate Combat in the first place? Wouldn't these be more appropriate in an "Oriental Adventures" type book? Rumor is Paizo will be doing one of those in the not too distant future, right?
The classes would then be setting specific, and they want as much of their stuff to be non setting specific as possible so more people feel freely to use it. A customer might buy a book with new martial stuff, but unless they play in golarion, and many of us don't, they won't buy a book that is eastern oriented.
PS: The "Oriental" book is about a country in Golarion so putting the class in that book gives it less exposure.
Sorry, but i do not buy that the samurai, ninja and gunslinger are archetypes.
While they do have elements in common with other classes, fighter cavalier and rogue/monk they are in every case more dissimilar to that class than even the anti-paladin(an alternate class) is to the paladin.
The classes are at the very least alternate classes(the samurai is perhapes most accurately described as a alternate class for the cavalier), or full fledged classes in their own right thanks to introduction of new mechanics, different saves, different class feature structures.
The Ki abilities of the ninja make the class so different from either the monk or the rogue that it really couldn't be an alternate of either, while the gunslingers grit and other functions make it even more unlike the fighter than the ninja is like either the rogue or the monk.
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Sorry, but i do not buy that the samurai, ninja and gunslinger are archetypes.
While they do have elements in common with other classes, fighter cavalier and rogue/monk they are in every case more dissimilar to that class than even the anti-paladin(an alternate class) is to the paladin.
The classes are at the very least alternate classes(the samurai is perhapes most accurately described as a alternate class for the cavalier), or full fledged classes in their own right thanks to introduction of new mechanics, different saves, different class feature structures.
The Ki abilities of the ninja make the class so different from either the monk or the rogue that it really couldn't be an alternate of either, while the gunslingers grit and other functions make it even more unlike the fighter than the ninja is like either the rogue or the monk.
Ninja trades some Rogue abilities on one-to-one basis (OK, except one ability), retains the others, keeps the signature ability (sneak attack and none of you even dare to tell me that Rogues aren't about the sneak attack), has virtually identical Skill list and identical skill points, saves and BAB. It's an archetype, rather big and complicated but an archetype.
Agreeded on the Gunslinger, it's too different from the Fighter.
Sorry, but i do not buy that the samurai, ninja and gunslinger are archetypes.
While they do have elements in common with other classes, fighter cavalier and rogue/monk they are in every case more dissimilar to that class than even the anti-paladin(an alternate class) is to the paladin.
The classes are at the very least alternate classes(the samurai is perhapes most accurately described as a alternate class for the cavalier), or full fledged classes in their own right thanks to introduction of new mechanics, different saves, different class feature structures.
The Ki abilities of the ninja make the class so different from either the monk or the rogue that it really couldn't be an alternate of either, while the gunslingers grit and other functions make it even more unlike the fighter than the ninja is like either the rogue or the monk.
Ninja trades some Rogue abilities on one-to-one basis (OK, except one ability), retains the others, keeps the signature ability (sneak attack and none of you even dare to tell me that Rogues aren't about the sneak attack), has virtually identical Skill list and identical skill points, saves and BAB. It's an archetype, rather big and complicated but an archetype.
Agreeded on the Gunslinger, it's too different from the Fighter.
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
The ninja might be built upon the same template, but other than sneak attack and uncanny dodge/uncanny dodge, it does not have a single class feature in common. What you can do with a ninja is markedly different from what you can do with the rogue. And more different than any archetype.
Again, I might concede that it is a Alternate class, but even that seems to be pushing it too me.
Sorry, but i do not buy that the samurai, ninja and gunslinger are archetypes.
While they do have elements in common with other classes, fighter cavalier and rogue/monk they are in every case more dissimilar to that class than even the anti-paladin(an alternate class) is to the paladin.
The classes are at the very least alternate classes(the samurai is perhapes most accurately described as a alternate class for the cavalier), or full fledged classes in their own right thanks to introduction of new mechanics, different saves, different class feature structures.
The Ki abilities of the ninja make the class so different from either the monk or the rogue that it really couldn't be an alternate of either, while the gunslingers grit and other functions make it even more unlike the fighter than the ninja is like either the rogue or the monk.
Ninja trades some Rogue abilities on one-to-one basis (OK, except one ability), retains the others, keeps the signature ability (sneak attack and none of you even dare to tell me that Rogues aren't about the sneak attack), has virtually identical Skill list and identical skill points, saves and BAB. It's an archetype, rather big and complicated but an archetype.
Agreeded on the Gunslinger, it's too different from the Fighter.
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
The ninja might be built upon the same template, but other than sneak attack and uncanny dodge/uncanny dodge, it does not have a single class feature in common. What you can do with a ninja is markedly different from what you can do with the rogue. And more different than any archetype.
Again, I might concede that it is a Alternate class, but even that seems to be pushing it too me.
That said, I would be very happy to see them push both the samurai and the ninja further. I think that ninja should probably get a stronger will save and bed to play around in a more significant way with their Ki.
Samurai could do with an honour(letting it negate damage or mental compusion with the strngth of their honour) and ki(spent for extra damage and status effects of strikes) feature.
You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature even a quarter as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
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You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Animal Shamans and Zen Archer are similar in the scope of modification to the original class.
Also, conceptually, several APG archetypes (Investigator and Swashbuckler, for example) are far more away from the "Thief who backstabs" idea than Ninja is.
You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Animal Shamans and Zen Archer are similar in the scope of modification to the original class.
Also, conceptually, several APG archetypes (Investigator and Swashbuckler, for example) are far more away from the "Thief who backstabs" idea than Ninja is.
The word count of the entire zen archer is less than a quarter of the word count of mechanical diferences between the Ninja and the rogue.
Five varients animal shamen use just over half the word count of the changed class features of the Ninja.
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I was thinking about it today, and I realized that these honestly could have been done as archetypes.
I understand using an alternate class for the antipaladin - it is similar enough not to be a full new base class, but also isn't just a version of the original with a few different tricks.
But that's pretty much what the ultimate combat classes are. The ninja and samurai are essentially a slightly different version of the base class. The gunslinger has more mechanical differences than a fighter archetype would, but does it really need them? Honestly, I could simply see swapping heavy armor for exotic weapon proficiency in firearms, and then putting most of the deeds under the grit system as replacements for weapon/armor training.
I may be missing something. But to me, it feels like Paizo is trying to have base class creep (bcc) without openly admitting it. (I think by the end, D&D3.5 had over 50 base classes, many of which were simply more specific versions of other base classes.)
I applauded when Paizo sidestepped bcc and prestige class deluge, yet still allowed for variety, with archetypes. I realize Ultimate Combat will have those, too... but these three classes seem like prime candidates for archetypes themselves and I can't help but wonder what the future will hold.
+1 Wholeheartedly.
The word count of the entire zen archer is less than a quarter of the word count of mechanical diferences between the Ninja and the rogue.
To me this is an argument for archtypes rather then classes. How many mechanical changes are needed to invoke the flavor of a Ninja. The answer is few if any and while some players may like Ki pools and other such stuff, I think unneeded new rules simply complicate the game.
Less is sometimes more. More is not always more.
The word count of the entire zen archer is less than a quarter of the word count of mechanical diferences between the Ninja and the rogue.
No, the thing that makes it eat up word count is the over complex ki pool and rogue talents that only good Asian rogues can take.
It only changes six ablilites. Which is far less then some in the AGP
The thing is an archetypes.
You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature even a quarter as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Uh...but why does it even NEED the ki system
really almost every one of the ninja tricks could be a rouge talent, No trace replaces trap sencewould not be that hard considering almost all the things that cause you to spend ki are tricks anyway
also what happened to their wisdom to armor, i know it was a 3.5 thing but i still cant picture a ninja wearing armor
The word count of the entire zen archer is less than a quarter of the word count of mechanical diferences between the Ninja and the rogue.No, the thing that makes it eat up word count is the over complex ki pool and rogue talents that only good Asian rogues can take.
It only changes six ablilites. Which is far less then some in the AGP
The thing is an archetypes.
Sorry, where exactly has an archotype changes a talent before?
you know, your right. and the cleric and sorcerer are just archetypes of the wizard.
And the palidin, ranger and barbarian are just archetypes of the fighter.
Calling Ki over complicated when we have systems like spell casting in the game is laughable.
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You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature even a quarter as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Uh...but why does it even NEED the ki system
really almost every one of the ninja tricks could be a rouge talent, No trace replaces trap sence
would not be that hard considering almost all the things that cause you to spend ki are tricks anywayalso what happened to their wisdom to armor, i know it was a 3.5 thing but i still cant picture a ninja wearing armor
Wis to AC would make Ninja MAD. MAD classes are bad, mmmkay? Scaling Dodge bonus (a.k.a. Savage Barbarian) is a better idea.
You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature even a quarter as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Uh...but why does it even NEED the ki system
really almost every one of the ninja tricks could be a rouge talent, No trace replaces trap sence
would not be that hard considering almost all the things that cause you to spend ki are tricks anywayalso what happened to their wisdom to armor, i know it was a 3.5 thing but i still cant picture a ninja wearing armor
Because the fiction that surounds Ninja is different from that which surrounds western rogue figures. Because thematically they are different, just like their is a thematic difference between a random folk hero with a sword(fighter) and a monastic knight(paladin). Because refecting thematic difference is the entire point of classes.
And while I hate classes, if we must have them, i want lots, because it broadens the range of themes I can play and use as NPCs.
Sorry, where exactly has an archotype changes a talent before?
Calling Ki over complicated when we have systems like spell casting in the game is laughable.
What talents? You mean those rogue talents rogues can't take because they are no Asian and can not be super cool? Oh yeah that neat, lets make better rogue talents and only allow the new super cool archeype to have them in place of any rogue.
And the ki pool is over complex for this archetype. It is unneeded and was added to try and make what is an archetype not an archetype so it could be better.
Word count be damned it changes 6 things, six. And much of that would count can be trimmed down. Only the ki pool is even large and it really is unneeded.
By even if you keep it. The thing is still just an archetype.
Sorry, where exactly has an archotype changes a talent before?
Calling Ki over complicated when we have systems like spell casting in the game is laughable.
What talents? You mean those rogue talents rogues can't take because they are no Asian and can not be super cool? Oh yeah that neat, lets make better rogue talents and only allow the new super cool archeype to have them in place of any rogue.
And the ki pool is over complex for this archetype. It is unneeded and was added to try and make what is an archetype not an archetype so it could be better.
Word count be damned it changes 6 things, six. And much of that would count can be trimmed down. Only the ki pool is even large and it really is unneeded.
By even if you keep it. The thing is still just an archetype.
Range powers, rogue talents, ect. No paizo published archetype, has to my knowledge changed a class so that I does not get access to either rage powers or rogue talents, and instead introduced an entirely separate set of similar but different abilities. Nor has any archetype introduced changed a class feature so fundimentally as ninja's Ki.
The level of change is massive.
Again, the ninja tricks are rogue talents and rogues should have them. They should not be held back just so this archetype can be called something it is not.
Right now the only reason rogues can not take them is so the ninja can be cooler and better then the rogue.
Paizo is doing the very thing I feared they would. Asian equals better, because it is Asian.
that only good Asian rogues can take.
AND
You mean those rogue talents rogues can't take because they are no Asian and can not be super cool?
Congratulations, you don't like Asian Mythology, and how dare I or anyone else. And how dare paizo try to make a class that fits the themes of Asian myth, because only weirdo anima kids like asian stuff with its hip "awesomeness", and it's getting its all it's weird asian-ness in my sort of european missmass of pulp fantasy, Sci-fi and DnD. YUK...
Well you know what, don't play or use ninja in your game then.
You are just plain wrong if you think that Ninja myth is the same as the rogues of European and American fantasy fiction. The mythology is different.
Real world ninja were dull, just sneaky dudes with knives and poison, just like the real world counter-parts of rogues, so are as such things actually existed here.
But we don't base the classes of the real world versions of these things , because if we did, our wizards would be going mad from mercury poisoning in their libraries libraries without ever having successfully cast a spell and our rogues would be murdering bastards well due a hanging.
And the ninja of myth, film and anima are an excellent theme to build a class around. Speed, stealth, and inhuman acrobatic feats, combined with poisons and blades in the dark. What they should not be, however, is an archetype. Because you wouldn't be able to give life to the ninja of myth in that form, not accurately at any rate.
The same goes for the samurai. In real life, they really where just warriors and nobles, like any other their counter parts in history. But the samurai of legend and myth are something that stands apart from that.
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Sorry Seeker I generaly agree with you on a lot of things but on this case I think you are well of the mark. I'll concede that at the moment the Ninja may be slightly better than a rogue (Although I think the Rogue I'm playing In your Savage tide game would wipe the floor with a Ninja). However I doubt that has anything to do with Asian = better and more likely aiming higher and then cutting back (After all remember how over the top the origonal summoner was till they toned it back a fair bit for the final version.)
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Again, the ninja tricks are rogue talents and rogues should have them. They should not be held back just so this archetype can be called something it is not.
Right now the only reason rogues can not take them is so the ninja can be cooler and better then the rogue.
Paizo is doing the very thing I feared they would. Asian equals better, because it is Asian.
Might be - but I happen to disagree here. There is no "asian" prerequisite in the class description, as there is no "european" prerequisite in the druid or paladin dscription.
The name ninja evoces a certain image as does pirate or knight, but if I look through my pile of characters and NPCs and through many "official" adventure for several worlds, there were lots of pirates and knights that expanded the image these words evoked and I see no reason that, in a fantasy world, the image of the ninja can't and won't be expanded beyond that japanese assassin image.
As I write the word assassin, I realize that most d&d gamers probably won't think of the middle eastern holy slayer that once used to be connected to the word - why should the ninja be different fron the paladin, the druid or the assassin in that respect?
Please, try something. Read the alternate class description again and exchange the word ninja with some other word, perhaps "manhunter" (I know, it doesn't really fit the description, but it is just an example).
Do you still think it's alternate abilities make it so much cooler and better than the (in my opinion more versatile) rogue? Then by all means write about your concerns in the playtest discussion.
The "if they are any different from the existing classes it must be because the designer are all a bunch of asian worshipping fanboys" routine might get in your way of seeing the potential and the problems of the presented classes.
I do not dislike it. However, I am tired of it is Asian so it must be better. Those talents should not be limited to just a ninja. Are all Asians Ninja's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get any Asian flavor or abilities, you can't be an Asian pick pocket with any Asian inspired talents. No you MUST be a ninja or no Asian talents for you.
No Asian can be a rogue and have cool Asian inspired talents, no he needs to be a ninja. He needs to be a [better] archetype to have any of those..one archetype that make it one and only one Asian style. Ever.
You are missing the forest for the trees here man. By allowing all rogues access to ablites they should have you allow more not less.
There is simply no reason not to allow them other then "this needs to be better".
Again, the ninja tricks are rogue talents and rogues should have them. They should not be held back just so this archetype can be called something it is not.
Right now the only reason rogues can not take them is so the ninja can be cooler and better then the rogue.
Paizo is doing the very thing I feared they would. Asian equals better, because it is Asian.
Might be - but I happen to disagree here. There is no "asian" prerequisite in the class description, as there is no "european" prerequisite in the druid or paladin dscription.
The name ninja evoces a certain image as does pirate or knight, but if I look through my pile of characters and NPCs and through many "official" adventure for several worlds, there were lots of pirates and knights that expanded the image these words evoked and I see no reason that, in a fantasy world, the image of the ninja can't and won't be expanded beyond that japanese assassin image.
As I write the word assassin, I realize that most d&d gamers probably won't think of the middle eastern holy slayer that once used to be connected to the word - why should the ninja be different fron the paladin, the druid or the assassin in that respect?
Please, try something. Read the alternate class description again and exchange the word ninja with some other word, perhaps "manhunter" (I know, it doesn't really fit the description, but it is just an example).
Do you still think it's alternate abilities make it so much cooler and better than the (in my opinion more versatile) rogue? Then by all means write about your concerns in the playtest discussion.The "if they are any different from the existing classes it must be because the designer are all a bunch of asian worshipping fanboys" routine might get in your way of seeing the potential and the problems of the presented classes.
+1
Personally, the thing i most want to do with the ninja(other than to run with a joke about the kobold secret police in my king maker game being Ninja), is to make a euthanitos inspired assassin of fate. The ninja's Ki abilities are what actually allow me to do it some degree of justice.
I do not dislike it. However, I am tired of it is Asian so it must be better. Those talents should not be limited to just a ninja. Are all Asians Ninja's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get any Asian flavor or abilities, you can't be an Asian pick pocket with any Asian inspired talents. No you MUST be a ninja or no Asian talents for you.
No Asian can be a rogue and have cool Asian inspired talents, no he needs to be a ninja. He needs to be a [better] archetype to have any of those..one archetype that make it one and only one Asian style. Ever.
You are missing the forest for the trees here man. By allowing all rogues access to ablites they should have you allow more not less.
There is simply no reason not to allow them other then "this needs to be better".
That is like saying...
'I do not dislike Vikings. However, I am tired of it is nordic so it must be better. Those rage powers should not be limited to just barbarians. Are all scandinavian's barbarian's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get an viking flavour or abilities, you can't be an viking warrior(fighter) with any beserker inspired rage powers. No you MUST be a Barbarian or no Viking rage powers for you.
That is like saying...'I do not dislike Vikings. However, I am tired of it is nordic so it must be better. Those rage powers should not be limited to just barbarians. Are all scandinavian's barbarian's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get an viking flavour or abilities, you can't be an viking warrior(fighter) with any beserker inspired rage powers. No you MUST be a Barbarian or no Viking rage powers for you.
Dude even the current form we have been told they are still archetypes, bigger better ones but still it is a rogue archetype.but It is an archetype you must take to have any of those rogue talents.
Why should it disallow rogues to use what are rogue talents? The barbarian you used does indeed allow any flavor or archetype of that class to use that classes rage powers, because the powers belong to the class, not the archetype. The ninja is forcing you to be one thing and only ever one thing.
For some reason the rogue can not take rogue talents because the ninja is cooler then he is. You have yet to give a single reason why tricks are not rogue talents other then the ninja is just better.
I do not dislike Vikings. However, I am tired of it is nordic so it must be better. Those rage powers should not be limited to just barbarians. Are all scandinavian's barbarian's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get an viking flavour or abilities, you can't be an viking warrior(fighter) with any beserker inspired rage powers. No you MUST be a Barbarian or no Viking rage powers for you.
I know seeker responded directly however I'd jump in with your comparison is off slightly.
Say Blood Viking was a Barbarian archetype that gave you 5 new rage power options, that only the Blood Viking could take. In order to have those special viking beserker powers you must be a Blood Viking and nothing else.
This seems to be Seekers point about the Ninja. It is taking what are essentially rogue talents and saying only this archetype may have them. You can't have Rogue take Deadly Range for an example of a non-Ki trick that could/should be a rogue talent.
That is like saying...'I do not dislike Vikings. However, I am tired of it is nordic so it must be better. Those rage powers should not be limited to just barbarians. Are all scandinavian's barbarian's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get an viking flavour or abilities, you can't be an viking warrior(fighter) with any beserker inspired rage powers. No you MUST be a Barbarian or no Viking rage powers for you.
Dude even the current form we have been told they are still archetypes, bigger better ones but still it is a rogue archetype.but It is an archetype you must take to have any of those rogue talents.
Why should it disallow rogues to use what are rogue talents? The barbarian you used does indeed allow any flavor or archetype of that class to use that classes rage powers, because the powers belong to the class, not the archetype. The ninja is forcing you to be one thing and only ever one thing.
For some reason the rogue can not take rogue talents because the ninja is cooler then he is. You have yet to give a single reason why tricks are not rogue talents other then the ninja is just better.
I think your confusing archetype and alternate class, seeker. Ofcause, I could be wrong so if you have a quote of one of the devs on the book saying that the ninja and samurai are actually archetypes rather than alternate classes, i would love to see it.
And given that you can't prove a negative, if you can show me an example of rogues in western literature performing half the unique ninja tricks tricks I will totally back down and agree that Ninja tricks are not thematically distinct from the stuff rogues do in literature.
I do not dislike Vikings. However, I am tired of it is nordic so it must be better. Those rage powers should not be limited to just barbarians. Are all scandinavian's barbarian's? It seems so. You are forced to be one thing to get an viking flavour or abilities, you can't be an viking warrior(fighter) with any beserker inspired rage powers. No you MUST be a Barbarian or no Viking rage powers for you.I know seeker responded directly however I'd jump in with your comparison is off slightly.
Say Blood Viking was a Barbarian archetype that gave you 5 new rage power options, that only the Blood Viking could take. In order to have those special viking beserker powers you must be a Blood Viking and nothing else.
This seems to be Seekers point about the Ninja. It is taking what are essentially rogue talents and saying only this archetype may have them. You can't have Rogue take Deadly Range for an example of a non-Ki trick that could/should be a rogue talent.
Is blood viking thematically distinct form other vikings? Do stories of Blood vikings differ from say seafaring vikings, in the same way that stories about ninja vary from the stories about criminal in japanese society do? If so, the blood viking is welcome to that ring fence as far as I am concerned.
Wis to AC would make Ninja MAD. MAD classes are bad, mmmkay? Scaling Dodge bonus (a.k.a. Savage Barbarian) is a better idea.You do realize that all the APG Rogue archetypes swap out trapfinding? :)
Sneak attack is an important part of the rogue, but so is trap finding, evasion ect.
Hey, stop it, no reasoned argument allowed.
That said, can you point to a single archetype that has a substitute feature even a quarter as complex as Ninja Ki, or which entirely substitutes one set of talent style powers, for another set?
Uh...but why does it even NEED the ki system
really almost every one of the ninja tricks could be a rouge talent, No trace replaces trap sence
would not be that hard considering almost all the things that cause you to spend ki are tricks anywayalso what happened to their wisdom to armor, i know it was a 3.5 thing but i still cant picture a ninja wearing armor
Granted...i hadn't thought of that, how ever i still think the ninja should just be a rouge archetype jut a more complex one similar to the zen archer.
And i dont see anybody bringing up that samurai. Which is most;y cavalier abilities. is it because no body has a problem with it, or has everybody just sighed and went home about it saying "yeah, tis is just an archtype"
I know seeker responded directly however I'd jump in with your comparison is off slightly.
Say Blood Viking was a Barbarian archetype that gave you 5 new rage power options, that only the Blood Viking could take. In order to have those special viking beserker powers you must be a Blood Viking and nothing else.
This seems to be Seekers point about the Ninja. It is taking what are essentially rogue talents and saying only this archetype may have them. You can't have Rogue take Deadly Range for an example of a non-Ki trick that could/should be a rogue talent.
This was my point, Thank ya.
Zombie, James outright said alt classes are just big archetypes. They are not sub classes. Which I think is a bag idea to make some of these a new name when they are just archetypes. It is casing all kinds of confusion.
Archetypes now have two names, and what is worse some of the alt classes{ archetype name 2} are just small changes{ Ninja, samurai} while others {gunslinger] are closer to a sub class like the anti-paladin. It is sloppy and as I said confusing { Why can't I be a ninja/rogue?} just call it an archetype man and be done with it.
I am not sure why two classes, with less changes then some of the AGP archetypes get the new name. Farther more this issue is granting class talents to just one archetype. No even the samurai does that as it can take any caviler order and they can take his.
I think your confusing archetype and alternate class, seeker. Ofcause, I could be wrong so if you have a quote of one of the devs on the book saying that the ninja and samurai are actually archetypes rather than alternate classes, i would love to see it.
Ok here ya go
ALTERNATE CLASSES: In earlier editions of this game, we might have called these "sub-classes." An alternate class does NOT have a significant new core ability. It's basically just a glorified archetype. The antipaladin is a great example; looking at the antipaladin, you can see that it basically functions the same way as a paladin. It has a smite ability, it has an ability to channel energy with its touch, and has an ability to put "riders" on that touch ability. It's different than the paladin, but it's also obviously just a VARIANT paladin. Technically, we could stat up ALL of the archetypes as alternate classes... but since most archetypes only swap out a few abilities, that'd kinda be a waste of space. Also... you can't multiclass from a class into that class's alternate class; you can't multiclass from paladin into antipaladin, for example (even if you ignore the alignment restrictions, you still can't; it's the same class).
See what I mean about confusing? Two of those are not sub classes {the one we have changed every ablity and the spell list} The gunslinger is, the other two are archetypes which change less then some in the AGP
The names alone is the only thing keeping Ninja and samurai from being called archetypes.
I know seeker responded directly however I'd jump in with your comparison is off slightly.
Say Blood Viking was a Barbarian archetype that gave you 5 new rage power options, that only the Blood Viking could take. In order to have those special viking beserker powers you must be a Blood Viking and nothing else.
This seems to be Seekers point about the Ninja. It is taking what are essentially rogue talents and saying only this archetype may have them. You can't have Rogue take Deadly Range for an example of a non-Ki trick that could/should be a rogue talent.
This was my point, Thank ya.
Zombie, James outright said alt classes are just big archetypes. They are not sub classes. Which I think is a bag idea to make some of these a new name when they are just archetypes. It is casing all kinds of confusion.
Archetypes now have two names, and what is worse some of the alt classes{ archetype name 2} are just small changes{ Ninja, samurai} while others {gunslinger] are closer to a sub class like the anti-paladin. It is sloppy and as I said confusing { Why can't I be a ninja/rogue?} just call it an archetype man and be done with it.
I am not sure why two classes, with less changes then some of the AGP archetypes get the new name. Farther more this issue is granting class talents to just one archetype. No even the samurai does that as it can take any caviler order and they can take his.
I have but one thing to say on this topic.
Antipaladin(Alternate Class)
There are five terms.
Core class: fighter, wizard, ect all. Found in core rule book
Base Class: Inquisitor and friends, class with full twenty level progression.
Alternate class: Antipalidin, ninja and samurai. Classes which are sustantially altered versions of Base or Core Classes.
Archetypes: Sets of alternate class features that are applied to a core, base and I suspect soon, alternate classes.
Prestige class: A class with entry pre-requisites.
Subclass does not appear anywhere other than your posts to my knowledge.
You mean the one that changes Every single ablity and the spell list that one? Yes changing 6 total is in the same league of massive change.
Many of the "lesser" AGP archetype change more then those two, and are bigger changes as well.
You mean the one that changes Every single ablity and the spell list that one? Yes changing 6 total is in the same league of massive change.
Many of the "lesser" AGP archetype change more then those two, and are bigger changes as well.
But not nearly as drastically.
The big thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are going to be new rogue talents in UltCom that we have yet to see. Why do you think only the ninja gets any of the ninja talents?
The big thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are going to be new rogue talents in UltCom that we have yet to see. Why do you think only the ninja gets any of the ninja talents?
+1
Wikipedia said...
In role-playing games, a common method of arbitrating the capabilities of different game characters is to assign each one to a character class. A character class aggregates several abilities and aptitudes, and may also sometimes detail aspects of background and social standing or impose behaviour restrictions. Classes may be considered to represent archetypes, or specific careers. RPG systems that employ character classes often subdivide them into levels of accomplishment, to be attained by players during the course of the game. It is common for a character to remain in the same class for its lifetime; although some games allow characters to change class, or attain multiple classes. Some systems eschew the use of classes and levels entirely; others hybridise them with skill-based systems or emulate them with character templates.
Since Archtype is a different word for Character Class, it can be used to mean any non-base class. Ninja, Detective, and yes Gunslinger will all qualify. Some GMs ban Monks without changing the game rules too radically, so even Monk could be an Archtype.
The big thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are going to be new rogue talents in UltCom that we have yet to see. Why do you think only the ninja gets any of the ninja talents?
We have new ones..but the ninja must be cooler so he got them. Just silly to let an archtype use a class ability while baring it to the parent class
I think your confusing archetype and alternate class, seeker. Ofcause, I could be wrong so if you have a quote of one of the devs on the book saying that the ninja and samurai are actually archetypes rather than alternate classes, i would love to see it.
But here is the question what is the difference? You can't be a ninja/rogue because ninja is an alternate class for rogue, in the same way you can't be a rogue(swashbuckler)/rogue(thug) [A clarification not that you can't take more then 1 archetype, but you can't take level 1 in both]
Here is the ninja as an archetype:(I didn't copy the ninja tricks or the master tricks and I shortened ki pool to save space)
Ninja
When the wealthy and the powerful need an enemy eliminated quietly and without fail, they call upon the ninja. When a general needs to sabotage the siege engines of his foes before they can reach the castle walls, he calls upon the ninja. And when anyone dares to move against a ninja or her companions, they will find the ninja waiting for them while they sleep, ready to strike. These shadowy killers are masters of infiltration, sabotage, and assassination, using a wide variety of weapons, practiced skills, and mystical powers to achieve their goals.
Class Skills: The ninja’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Dex), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (local) (Int), Knowledge (nobility) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), Swim (Str), and Use Magic Device (Cha). These replace the standard rogue class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Ninjas are proficient with all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana, nunchaku, sai, short sword, shortbow, shuriken, siangham, and wakizashi. They are proficient with light armor but not with shields.
Poison Use: At 1st level, a ninja is trained in the use of poison and cannot accidentally poison herself when applying poison to a weapon. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Ki Pool (Su): At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows). This ability replaces Evasion ...edited
Ninja Trick: As a ninja continues her training, she learns a number of tricks that allow her to confuse her foes and grant her supernatural abilities. Starting at 2nd level, a ninja gains one ninja trick. She gains an additional ninja trick for every 2 levels attained after 2nd. Unless otherwise noted, a ninja cannot select an individual ninja trick more than once. This ability replaces the Rogue Talents ...edited
No Trace (Ex): At 3rd level, a ninja learns to cover her tracks, remain hidden, and conceal her presence. The DC to track a ninja using the Survival skill increases by +1. In addition, her training gives her a +1 insight bonus on Disguise skill checks and on opposed Stealth checks whenever she is stationary and does not take any action for at least 1 round. Every three levels thereafter, the increase to Survival DCs and the bonuses on Disguise and opposed Stealth checks increase by 1. This ability replaces Trap Sense.
Light Steps (Ex): At 6th level, a ninja learns to move by barely touching the surface underneath her. As a fullround action, she can move up to twice her speed, ignoring difficult terrain. While moving in this way, any surface will support her, no matter how much she weighs. This allows her to move across water, lava, or even the thinnest tree branches. She must end her move on a surface that can support her normally. She cannot move across air in this way, nor can she walk up walls or other vertical surfaces. When moving in this way, she does not take damage from surfaces or hazards that react to being touched, such as lava or caltrops, nor does she need to make Acrobatics checks to avoid falling on slippery or rough surfaces. Finally, when using light steps the ninja ignores any mechanical traps that use a location-based trigger. This ability ninja's get for free.
Master Tricks: At 10th level, and every two levels thereafter, a ninja can select one of the following master tricks in place of a ninja trick. This ability replaces Advanced Talents. ...Edited
Hidden Master (Su): At 20th level, the ninja becomes a true master of her art. She can, as a standard action, cast greater invisibility on herself. While invisible in this way, she cannot be detected by any means, and not even invisibility purge, see invisibility, and true seeing can reveal her. She uses her ninja level as her caster level for this ability. Using this ability consumes 2 ki points from her ki pool. In addition, whenever the ninja deals sneak attack damage, she can sacrifice additional damage dice to apply a penalty to one ability score of the target equal to the number of dice sacrificed. This penalty does not stack with itself and cannot reduce an ability score below 1. This ability replaces Master Strike.
The big thing people seem to be forgetting is that there are going to be new rogue talents in UltCom that we have yet to see. Why do you think only the ninja gets any of the ninja talents?We have new ones..but the ninja must be cooler so he got them. Just silly to let an archtype use a class ability while baring it to the parent class
No, the ninja doesn't need to be 'cooler' he needs to be distinct.
You do understand the difference right. It is what means that if i am being honest i have to say, 'seekerofshadowlight and i have a different taste in music' as opposed to, 'I have a cooler taste in music to seekerofshadowlight.'
I think your confusing archetype and alternate class, seeker. Ofcause, I could be wrong so if you have a quote of one of the devs on the book saying that the ninja and samurai are actually archetypes rather than alternate classes, i would love to see it.
But here is the question what is the difference? You can't be a ninja/rogue because ninja is an alternate class for rogue, in the same way you can't be a rogue(swashbuckler)/rogue(thug) [A clarification not that you can't take more then 1 archetype, but you can't take level 1 in both]
Here is the ninja as an archetype:(I didn't copy the ninja tricks or the master tricks and I shortened ki pool to save space)
** spoiler omitted **...
I suspect the deviding line will be that Alternate classes will have archetypes which can be applied to them, but not to their parent class, and their parent class will have Archetypes that can be allied to them, but not to the Ninja
So you wont be a Ninja, you'll be a mist valley school ninja.
And it was..bu on top of being distinct, lets rename rogue talents to ninja tricks and make them better then rogue talents and not allow those non Asian rogues to ever have them..or hell Asian rogue..you can't be a cool as the Ninja!
You see how silly that is? Ninja trikes are rogue talents but better rogue talents rogues can't have, because they are not as cool...yet Ninja can have rogue talents.