Woops put this in the wrong thread. I'm putting it here now instead!
I abhor how the ninja, the gunslinger, and the samurai - and the monk, and all the other martial base classes - have these "x per day" restrictions to abilities. The gunslinger could be better since he can recharge his, but...well, there's a big heap of problems regarding those that I cover in my m-m-m-megathread.
Per-encounter is no more abstracted then per-day is, since both are inherently abstract game functions. The same goes for rechargable points - since the x/day mechanic is already an abstraction, being able to regain them is no more or no less of one.
The problems with per day/unrechargable: There are a lot. First off, it's where the nova is born from. It also leads to strange-ities such as having to balance how many encounters a day you have, as well as trying to track out how many "resources" each encounter takes off. But most of all, for a martial class, it just isn't that fun. I mean, I'm a ninja, I'm supposed to be flipping out and killing things every fight, but I can't because woops I only have so many ki points left. Guess I can't be a ninja anymore. We see it probably hardest in the monk, who has to all but vomit ki points copiously to keep up with everyone else - and he only has so many.
I'm going to assume we ain't about to jump into a per-encounter system. That said, being able to "recharge" the daily points would help tremendously. As much as I have so many problems with the Gunslinger, the fact that he can GAIN grit points is an incredible step in the right direction. I really feel that all non-casters should have a means by which they can "recharge" their daily abilities. Potentially you could have the recharge mechanics based on things done in combat to prevent a character from just recapping to full after each fight.
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And your definition of an encounter is? If I fight a bunch of monsters, but one side runs away, and comes back in 5 rounds, is it a new encounter? In 10 rounds? 10 minutes? If they come in waves, is that one encounter? One per a wave? If I kill a monster, and one round later I activate a foozle that teleports in a new one, is that a new encounter?
I don't like spending my time arguing with my players on if it is still encounter 1 or encounter 2 already. Per day mechanics, while sometimes artificial and kind of wonky if the combat starts at 23:59, is less problematic.
so you want the weaboo book of fightah majik... err i mean book of 9 swords. this whole arguement boils down to what wotc already made and most people hated it, except the few that really love it
pass.
I actually rather did like Tome of Battle!
I should note, however, that your use of "Weaboo book of fightah majik" does not give your argument a lot of standing. Granted you didn't make an actual argument so no loss, I suppose.
That said, this thread is potentially about per-encounter but also about rechargable mechanics, and to be fair, I think rechargable mechanics can potentially be a lot more fun!
And your definition of an encounter is? If I fight a bunch of monsters, but one side runs away, and comes back in 5 rounds, is it a new encounter? In 10 rounds? 10 minutes? If they come in waves, is that one encounter? One per a wave? If I kill a monster, and one round later I activate a foozle that teleports in a new one, is that a new encounter?
I don't like spending my time arguing with my players on if it is still encounter 1 or encounter 2 already. Per day mechanics, while sometimes artificial and kind of wonky if the combat starts at 23:59, is less problematic.
Let's simply say that "encounters" end after a ten minute rest. Or five minutes! Or whatever, I suppose.
The m-m-m-megathread is, I'm afraid, based entirely around my issues with the gunslinger class and nothing else.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/ultimateCombatPlaytest/gunslinger/theGunslingerAndTheStrongestMan
It's here if you want, though!
Keep the per day. Not all groups are the same. In my campaign the chars don't rest now for, what, four days? They're starting to feel it, and there a levl o "humanly possible" feel for not being able to just go and go and go and go.
And your definition of an encounter is? If I fight a bunch of monsters, but one side runs away, and comes back in 5 rounds, is it a new encounter? In 10 rounds? 10 minutes? If they come in waves, is that one encounter? One per a wave? If I kill a monster, and one round later I activate a foozle that teleports in a new one, is that a new encounter?
I don't like spending my time arguing with my players on if it is still encounter 1 or encounter 2 already. Per day mechanics, while sometimes artificial and kind of wonky if the combat starts at 23:59, is less problematic.
Nope easy.
A new Encounter is reached whenever there is 5 minutes that has occurred after a encounter.You are talking about an extendede encounter: waves = extended encounter. It counts as same encounter for CR/Encounter Level. Better chance for overwhelming.
It is simple, did they have time to sit down or lay against a tree to relax for 5 minutes? Than encounter had ended. If they fight a new monster = new encounter.
I do think that we're in the wrong forum, in the wrong thread, on the wrong server even.
Ah. Well, head to the Gunslinger forums and grab The Gunslinger and the Strongest Man (see it's a joke on The Gunslinger and the Dark Man only I'm ProfessorCirno so hurrr)
Keep the per day. Not all groups are the same. In my campaign the chars don't rest now for, what, four days? They're starting to feel it, and there a levl o "humanly possible" feel for not being able to just go and go and go and go.
That's pretty extreme. And also pretty dang bizarre, to be honest. I think I can go to a limb and say that this isn't the norm to go four days without resting.
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This is a specific example, but in the Monk's case, ten minutes of meditation per ki point sounds good to me. It means the monk isn't recharging his ki points while in a time-pressure situation, but that under general circumstances he's not as limited as he is RAW.Let's just hope somebody moves the thread or merges.
Anyway.
I'd honestly love to read a Recharge Mechanic That Works. If you guys have links to any, feel free to paste here.
OK. Good. Now, what is "meditation"? What interrupts it? Can I meditate while poisoned/feebleminded/wearing a pink tutu? What if somebody starts casting time stop (yeah, extreme, but you get the idea) during my meditiation?
I hate 'per' powers. Per encounter or day, it bugs me; I even hate the 1d4 round wait time on dragon breath.
(I generally prefer a soft cap of fatigue penalties after strenuous activity, since those have a more organic approach that can give player and DM more control over their resources. Implementing something like that would be a whole system overhaul though instead of just a class.)
Rechargeable points per day, although mostly just a camouflage for per-encounter, disguises the flavor enough for me to digest, and again gives some ability to player and DM to control dramatic exhaustion.
Meditation seems like the simplest way to go for fantasy-East recharging, although I think it would be more interesting to tie it to a check of some sort, like a Wisdom check on a scaling DC with the same penalties as concentration checks.
Otherwise, Ninja could do it like Gunslinger, but instead of on kills and daring make it kills and subtlety (feats of stealth or manipulation with scary consequences and coin-flip chances of success), and Samurai could do crits and self-control (same but for endurance and poise).
What if points recharged on every 20 rolled in combat, as well as any success on a coin-flip odds or worse roll that risks death, encouraging players to creatively stunt to get more rolls into a round?
....how about the ki mat
fine ignore my other post, just sayin there is already a mechanic
fine ignore my other post, just sayin there is already a mechanicNot trying to deliberately ignore it Shadow, it's just that's not something I'm interested in. It's a magic item, as opposed to part of the class, and it requires a full hour to get one ki point back. How many times in a day is a monk really going to be able to use that?
Well its usually a no-no to make a free mechanic better then a magic item so nothing here will probably ever be official, but for homebrew just lower the time to 10 min or whatever you think is fair.
Confession: I loved Tome of Battle, however I disdain the idea of all classes functioning as the ones in ToB, i.e. 4th addition
Well its usually a no-no to make a free mechanic better then a magic item so nothing here will probably ever be official, but for homebrew just lower the time to 10 min or whatever you think is fair.fine ignore my other post, just sayin there is already a mechanicNot trying to deliberately ignore it Shadow, it's just that's not something I'm interested in. It's a magic item, as opposed to part of the class, and it requires a full hour to get one ki point back. How many times in a day is a monk really going to be able to use that?
You can't balance around terrible options, though. The ki mat isn't a good item. It was a good idea but poorly executed. Balancing around that is just a bad move.
Recall through the use of hero points. You don't get many of those, but it could be a step in the right direction.
Confession: I loved Tome of Battle, however I disdain the idea of all classes functioning as the ones in ToB, i.e. 4th addition
Um, ToB was per encounter. It wasn't daily.
So it was closer to Saga not 4E.
And your definition of an encounter is? If I fight a bunch of monsters, but one side runs away, and comes back in 5 rounds, is it a new encounter? In 10 rounds? 10 minutes? If they come in waves, is that one encounter? One per a wave? If I kill a monster, and one round later I activate a foozle that teleports in a new one, is that a new encounter?
Are you kidding me? This is not remotely a difficult definition. Hell, 4e is ENTIRELY built around a per-encounter system, and the game system is completely unchanged. If you are in initiative, you are in an encounter.
Well its usually a no-no to make a free mechanic better then a magic item so nothing here will probably ever be official, but for homebrew just lower the time to 10 min or whatever you think is fair.fine ignore my other post, just sayin there is already a mechanicNot trying to deliberately ignore it Shadow, it's just that's not something I'm interested in. It's a magic item, as opposed to part of the class, and it requires a full hour to get one ki point back. How many times in a day is a monk really going to be able to use that?
The current mechanics are bad. That's the point of this thread.
Are you kidding me? This is not remotely a difficult definition. Hell, 4e is ENTIRELY built around a per-encounter system, and the game system is completely unchanged. If you are in initiative, you are in an encounter.
This worries me. I could be wrong, but creating interesting powers without the risk of out-of-combat abuse and/or dire metagame mechanics is very high.
This worries me. I could be wrong, but creating interesting powers without the risk of out-of-combat abuse and/or dire metagame mechanics is very high.
Are you kidding me? This is not remotely a difficult definition. Hell, 4e is ENTIRELY built around a per-encounter system, and the game system is completely unchanged. If you are in initiative, you are in an encounter.
Perhaps you could elucidate on some of these out-of-combat abuses that would present themselves.
Death to the four encounter per day paradigm. Death to per day abilities. All character abilities should be based on per encounter. HP restores between fights, spell slots restore between fights, class features restore between fights.
That's pretty much how I feel; the last game I GMed, I used the Unearthed Arcana spell recharge system.
I also like the general idea behind other "recharge" mechanisms like the maneuver recharge methods from the Tome of Battle, psionic focus recovery from the Psionic Handbook and the idea of a "short rest" from 4E.
Perhaps you could elucidate on some of these out-of-combat abuses that would present themselves.
I think the general idea is that if you have per encounter powers, you have to phrase them carefully so as to avoid perverse incentives like benefits from initiating encounters with weak creatures you'd otherwise ignore ("Hey, let's beat up a squirrel so I can use my per-encounter healing!") or intentionally prolonging an encounter that you'd otherwise be finished with quickly.
The only really sticky issue I can see here is, if we give these classes rechargeable abilities out of combat, we have to start thinking of giving it to Wizards, Clerics, Sorcerers etc.
I know the mechanics are clunky but if we can't mitigate the other classes wanting their abilities rechargeable, this just isn't worth the grey matter for me to waste... so.little.left.
Interesting topic though and good luck with it!
Have Fun out there!!
~ W ~
Perhaps you could elucidate on some of these out-of-combat abuses that would present themselves.I think the general idea is that if you have per encounter powers, you have to phrase them carefully so as to avoid perverse incentives like benefits from initiating encounters with weak creatures you'd otherwise ignore ("Hey, let's beat up a squirrel so I can use my per-encounter healing!") or intentionally prolonging an encounter that you'd otherwise be finished with quickly.
I'd just assume you could use per encounter stuff outside combat for free because that is when you recharge it anyway and I assumed that is what his complaint was.
Paladins can Lay on Hands for free outside combat? Don't care.
I'd just assume you could use per encounter stuff outside combat for free because that is when you recharge it anyway and I assumed that is what his complaint was.
Paladins can Lay on Hands for free outside combat? Don't care.
An example of a poorly-written "per encounter" (or "per combat") rule is the Judgment ability from the APG playtest version of the Inquisitor. The bonus you received was contingent on the number of rounds that a combat lasted, so it would be in your best interest to keep the "combat" going (maybe by turning it into a sissy slap-fight with another member of your party) until you meet another monster. Jason rightfully rewrote it for the final version, of course.
@Cartigan: I think hogarth bringed a good example.
I remember similar things (even if didn't happened in my game because my players selected different maneuvers) with few Stone Dragon maneuvers from ToB.
What I fear is things with the "bag of trick" effect.
RE: Spellcasters -
Yeah, I'm not seeing the ability to cast timestop forever a good one.
When casters aren't as blindingly powerful in comparison they can start considering having a rechargable mechanic. In the end, there's a bit of a difference between what the monk can do with Ki and what a wizard can do with spell slots.
An example of a poorly-written "per encounter" (or "per combat") rule is the Judgment ability from the APG playtest version of the Inquisitor. The bonus you received was contingent on the number of rounds that a combat lasted, so it would be in your best interest to keep the "combat" going (maybe by turning it into a sissy slap-fight with another member of your party) until you meet another monster. Jason rightfully rewrote it for the final version, of course.I'd just assume you could use per encounter stuff outside combat for free because that is when you recharge it anyway and I assumed that is what his complaint was.
Paladins can Lay on Hands for free outside combat? Don't care.
That was indeed a poor mechanic, but I don't really see how it counts against a per encounter system.
That was indeed a poor mechanic, but I don't really see how it counts against a per encounter system.
I can't speak for Kaiyanwang, but my point was that I prefer recovery systems where those sorts of shenanigans are never (rarely?) an issue (e.g. requiring a short rest instead of getting a power back instantly when initiative ends).
That was indeed a poor mechanic, but I don't really see how it counts against a per encounter system.I can't speak for Kaiyanwang, but my point was that I prefer recovery systems where those sorts of shenanigans are never (rarely?) an issue (e.g. requiring a short rest instead of getting a power back instantly when initiative ends).
A short rest is for all points and purposes "instantly when initiative ends."
That was indeed a poor mechanic, but I don't really see how it counts against a per encounter system.I can't speak for Kaiyanwang, but my point was that I prefer recovery systems where those sorts of shenanigans are never (rarely?) an issue (e.g. requiring a short rest instead of getting a power back instantly when initiative ends).
This.
Moreover, I'm not sure I'd like a game with spells designed per encounter.
Wanna balance magic? More drawbacks, more casting issues. More casting time.
Flat everything down = wrong for me. Already happened, didn't work out (for me).
@Cartigan: I think hogarth bringed a good example.
I remember similar things (even if didn't happened in my game because my players selected different maneuvers) with few Stone Dragon maneuvers from ToB.
What I fear is things with the "bag of trick" effect.
Explain bag of tricks?
And how it was abused.Remember all ToB maneuvers says a foe must be a threat. So a bag of rats won't work.
I can't speak for Kaiyanwang, but my point was that I prefer recovery systems where those sorts of shenanigans are never (rarely?) an issue (e.g. requiring a short rest instead of getting a power back instantly when initiative ends).
That was how ToB worked. You got them back after a short rest not instantly after a combat ended.
@Cartigan: I think hogarth bringed a good example.
I remember similar things (even if didn't happened in my game because my players selected different maneuvers) with few Stone Dragon maneuvers from ToB.
What I fear is things with the "bag of trick" effect.
Explain bag of tricks?
And how it was abused.
Remember all ToB maneuvers says a foe must be a threat. So a bag of rats won't work.
Could we all at least TRY to present an argument. Pathfinder has classes with abilities that work X/day. Fact. All you have to do is explain how it would be broken for those to work on a per encounter basis - you know, with examples. I don't care about ToB or theoretical possible abilities. You know the problem with ToB? Classes got all these great maneuvers that let them do cool stuff but ONLY in combat, of COURSE they were going to say "I punch my ally in the face so I can actually DO something."
How about we keep the per-day mechanic but modify it so that it resets every time there is an encounter? So you can't do cool stuff infinitely out of combat, but you can do it every combat and a limited number of times outside combat. Where an encounter is STILL something where you roll initiative.
Explain bag of tricks?
And how it was abused.
Remember all ToB maneuvers says a foe must be a threat. So a bag of rats won't work.
Error by my part. the two things were not linked together - were 2 different abuses.
I meant "Bag of rats". The whirlwind + Greatcleave abuse.
For the stone dragon, I was thinking to the ones ignoring hardness. Dig dig dig.
These abuses are silly, I just think that there is the risk of designing one thing with combat or out of combat only in mind, and you end up with strange situations of unwanted blends.
Explain bag of tricks?
And how it was abused.
Remember all ToB maneuvers says a foe must be a threat. So a bag of rats won't work.Error by my part. the two things were not linked together - were 2 different abuses.
I meant "Bag of rats". The whirlwind + Greatcleave abuse.
For the stone dragon, I was thinking to the ones ignoring hardness. Dig dig dig.
These abuses are silly, I just think that there is the risk of designing one thing with combat or out of combat only in mind, and you end up with strange situations of unwanted blends.
Explain how it would be broke or abused with rules and classes that exist.
Not theoretical classes or Tome of Battle.
I agree with the Prof to a certain degree. Extraordinary abilities should not have per day limits, unless there is some kind of in-game fluff that it tuckers you out for 24 hours.
Explain how it would be broke or abused with rules and classes that exist.
Not theoretical classes or Tome of Battle.
Leaving aside the issue of recovery techniques, I guess I'd find it slightly annoying if a 5th level bard could automatically take 20 on every single Knowledge check (outside of combat). I don't like to use the word "broken", though.